[quote=doubledenim][font=century gothic]"Has he had any coffee yet?"[/font][/quote]

[quote=doubledenim][quote=John McClane]It was the last thing we looked at today, and the only thing I could afford outright. That said, it looks like shit, but runs damn good. [b]And the petrol wars are only a few years off[/b] ;)[/quote]

[font=century gothic]As I get older, I'm mindful of not sounding like the old guy and being a curmudgeon. "New music sucks!" and the like.

When it comes to gas prices and everybody that justifies having a Suburban (cuz station wagons and mini-vans aren't cool) or every nature loving outdoor person that has a Ram 3500 to pull their side-by-side to go destroy some wilderness, bring on $6 a gallon.

Spite the the ev, phev and hybrid models you don't want to buy and keep sending your hard-earned patriot dollars to the middle east. While you're at it, stop by Hobby Lobby and pick up a bunch of stuff made overseas.[/font][/quote]

[quote=Mr Minio][quote=SpelingError]The full scope of the horrors of the concentration camps, however, were unknown to most of the world for at least a decade after the war ended.[/quote] Everyone knew someone who was directly involved in the Holocaust. It spread. Who do you think murdered Jews in the camps in Poland? Germans from Austria, Bavaria, etc., and their collaborators from Ukraine and Latvia, and from all over Europe. They returned home for the holidays and talked to their neighbors. And of course, those who lived in Germany near the camps saw with their own eyes. 

Moreover, it is not difficult to guess what's going on when they catch, beat, and shoot some of your Jewish neighbors on the spot, while the rest are taken away and robbed of their apartment. You could also end up in prison, be tortured, or lose your life for having a relationship with a Jew.

So yes, they returned home for Christmas and talked about it, talked at large. A person has to vent after doing such things, talk it out, and shift the blame onto others. In Poland, helping Jews was punishable by death. In Germany too. In France, the Netherlands, and Belgium, this policy was enforced more leniently - you could be fined, imprisoned, etc. for hiding Jews, but rarely killed. That's because local collaborators, not the Germans, were often responsible for imposing penalties.

MILLIONS of Germans were involved in the Holocaust. Someone had to build the furnaces, someone had to keep documentation, and someone had to produce and deliver gas. That's millions of Germans.

Read about Kurt Waldheim. President of Austria, Minister of Foreign Affairs of Austria, and Secretary General of the United Nations... as well as an SS intelligence officer on the Eastern Front responsible for rounding up Jews, partisans, etc. and murdering them. Never sentenced, the result of the so-called policy of the "first victim of Nazism" in Austria. Lies and denialism that they did not take part in crimes, etc. but were victims because of the Anschluss.

They knew.[/quote]

[quote=Mr Minio]Ah yes, comparing animals to people[/quote]

[quote=WHITBISSELL!][quote=John McClane]help me pick the next movie in my “im sick but still had to take my ass out car shopping” marathon:

Black Mass
Eastern Promises
The Place Beyond the Pines[/quote]They're all pretty good movies but I'd pick Black Mass.[/quote]

[quote=Corax][quote=SpelingError]The full scope of the horrors of the concentration camps, however, were unknown to most of the world for at least a decade after the war ended.[/quote]
But were they known to the Germans? 
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2001/feb/17/johnezard
And were these crimes likely known to those local Germans who lived nearby and were collected by the military to see what they'd done and to forced to help bury bodies? 
There are (arguably) a lot of people who do not know the "full scope" of what happens in the Ag industry--How can they when we have Ag Gag laws that make it illegal to what happens in CAFOs? 
If people do know about the "pretty gross" stuff (conceptually), then they should arguably be OK with seeing pictures of the gross stuff. If they don't know, then they deserve to be shown. 
Again, I think the animal rights people have a losing strategy. I don't think that this changes the system. On the other hand, perhaps we at least deserve to suffer a little visual discomfort now and again between stuffing our faces. If the animal lived a life of torture before being killed for our consumption, maybe that's part of the price of cheap meat? Maybe it isn't a question of rhetorical effectiveness, but conscience?[/quote]

[quote=SpelingError][quote=Corax][quote=SpelingError]Not a fan of the shock activism some vegetarians use of linking slaughterhouse footage and expecting for it to change people's views overnight. When posted just by itself with no other context, I can't imagine it changing anyone's minds. Like, I'm fully aware that animals are killed to make meat products. Never questioned that for a second. The more pressing questions are whether you're comfortable with eating meat products with the knowledge animals are killed to make it. That's where the debate lies.[/quote]
As persuasion, it is ineffective. Then again, I imagine that the same argument could be made regarding forcing German citizens to visit the death camps and bury the dead (e.g., they were either comfortable with the final solution or not--they were aware--visiting the camp was shock treatment).[/quote]
I think the difference is that you, I, and I would imagine most people are already aware that animals are killed to make food and that it's probably a pretty gross process. This has been a well-known fact for years. The full scope of the horrors of the concentration camps, however, were unknown to most of the world for at least a decade after the war ended. People visiting the concentration camps immediately after liberation or documentaries like [I]Night and Fog[/I] were among the first exposures to those horrors for many people.[/quote]

[quote=Corax][quote=SpelingError]Not a fan of the shock activism some vegetarians use of linking slaughterhouse footage and expecting for it to change people's views overnight. When posted just by itself with no other context, I can't imagine it changing anyone's minds. Like, I'm fully aware that animals are killed to make meat products. Never questioned that for a second. The more pressing questions are whether you're comfortable with eating meat products with the knowledge animals are killed to make it. That's where the debate lies.[/quote]
As persuasion, it is ineffective. Then again, I imagine that the same argument could be made regarding forcing German citizens to visit the death camps and bury the dead (e.g., they were either comfortable with the final solution or not--they were aware--visiting the camp was shock treatment).[/quote]

[quote=SpelingError]Not a fan of the shock activism some vegetarians use of linking slaughterhouse footage and expecting for it to change people's views overnight. When posted just by itself with no other context, I can't imagine it changing anyone's minds. Like, I'm fully aware that animals are killed to make meat products. Never questioned that for a second. The more pressing questions are whether you're comfortable with eating meat products with the knowledge animals are killed to make it. That's where the debate lies.[/quote]

[quote=Allaby][quote=John McClane]help me pick the next movie in my “im sick but still had to take my ass out car shopping” marathon:

Black Mass
Eastern Promises
The Place Beyond the Pines[/quote]

Eastern Promises would be my vote.[/quote]

[quote=John McClane]help me pick the next movie in my “im sick but still had to take my ass out car shopping” marathon:

Black Mass
Eastern Promises
The Place Beyond the Pines[/quote]