[quote=donniedarko]Woah, sexy passed John in shout count[/quote]

[quote=The Gunslinger45]Isn't there a thread for this? :D[/quote]

[quote=Yoda]Now, I guess, to a cynical observer, my story probably just looks like a Christian kid inevitably coming to believe what his parents do. But it didn't feel at all inevitable while it was happening, and I've noticed most of the people who advance this explanation regard themselves as exceptions to it. I think it's seductively easy to think of other people's beliefs as determined by superficial things, but our own as being the result of serious consideration.[/quote]

[quote=Yoda][quote=Powdered Water]Really? So, you weren't born into any kind of religious family whatsoever? You came to faith entirely on your own? I think this is a pretty important point, actually. Because if  you were raised a certain way I tend to think you're totally predisposed to believe certain things and are also more likely to deny other things from outside your group or life circle or whatever. Do you think about that at all?[/quote]
I'm surprised you have to ask, given that it would take a staggering lack of self-awareness not to think about that, no matter what you believe.

Yes, of course I've thought about that. And when I do, I see that being raised religious has produced some of the most anti-religious people I know. Virtually any standup comic you can think of that rants about religion was raised Catholic. If I had to aggregate it, I'd say being raised a certain way probably makes you more likely to believe it than not, but nowhere near enough to be dispositive. Way too many exceptions.

When I was a teenager, I realized my beliefs were largely habitual, and that I'd never examined them much. So I started to. My old man gave me Bertrand Russell's [u]Why I Am Not a Christian[/u], and I read it. Then I read Lewis, and it was an absolute revelation. The kind of stuff so brimming with insight that it made me laugh out loud, even though it wasn't funny. That's when I was convinced.[/quote]

[quote=jiraffejustin]Most people that I know that are non-religious grew up in religious homes.[/quote]

[quote=Powdered Water][quote=Yoda]It's the other way around: I'm religious because I don't find that stuff convincing.

[/quote]

Really? So, you weren't born into any kind of religious family whatsoever? You came to faith entirely on your own? I think this is a pretty important point, actually. Because if  you were raised a certain way I tend to think you're totally predisposed to believe certain things and are also more likely to deny other things from outside your group or life circle or whatever. Do you think about that at all?[/quote]

[quote=Yoda]As long as that's your attitude, kindly count me out.[/quote]

[quote=Sir Toose]Ok, SC, in my mind I was having a conversation and not an argument. You may feel free to be 'right'. 

Also, Yoda and I disagree on plenty of stuff and we aren't even coming at this question from the same angle.[/quote]

[quote=Yoda][quote=Sexy Celebrity]Because you people do it, too.  And often.  So stop acting like I'm the only person who behaves this way.[/quote]
Really? Who did that just now?

[quote=Sexy Celebrity]Well, I am.  Every time I bring up this topic, nobody listens.  You just gather around and tell me I'm wrong and that I need to read more.  That's attacking me.[/quote]
Disagreements are not the same thing as attacks, and confusing the two is how discussions turn pointless and ugly.

The point, however, was not whether you're being attacked, but that feeling attacked is the only reason I can think of for why you'd think everybody else is acting like they're sure they'r right. Because that's just not evident in anything people are posting.[/quote]

[quote=Yoda][quote=Sexy Celebrity]I just don't like the tone that I get from people here -- a tone that says, "You're wrong.  I'm right.[/quote]
You just replied to someone by just saying "you'll never have free will. Never." Forget [i]tone[/i], you literally tell people "You're wrong/I'm right" when talking about this. So, you're mad because you think their tone might say what you're literally already saying to them.

[quote=Sexy Celebrity]You guys are totally convinced that your views are correct, and then you say it's because I don't read what you read.  Or don't read enough of something.  You're just trying to get me to change my position on free will.  You all act like I couldn't be right about this.[/quote]
Oy, how to say this nicely? None of this describes what's happening right now at all. It's easy to think this sort of stuff if you feel attacked or ganged up on, but all of the stuff above is either imagined or exaggerated beyond recognition. I don't see any suggestion that anyone here is "totally convinced" they're correct, or acting like you couldn't be right.

What people [i]are[/i] suggesting is that, whether you're right or not, this isn't a good way to find out. You could conduct a scientific experiment by rolling dice, and I'd tell you it was wrong even if the conclusion was right. I don't know if you're right or wrong about this, but I know that the ratio of thoughtful investigation to loud insistence is totally out of whack.[/quote]

[quote=Sir Toose]The mind, to me, is a programmable computer. Yours, for example, has been programmed to understand English where someone elses might be programmed to understand German. Within those programs lie subroutines of cultural differences and understandings. Eastern philosophy deals with all manner of simply turning the mind off. Lots of examples out there if you look for them.[/quote]