Tarantino Defending Polanski (Howard Stern)

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I think it's amazing how we're supposed to listen and believe women unless they tell you to move on
"Believe women" means "about factual claims of sexual assault." It doesn't mean "let them decide for you how morality works."

Also, notice that this doesn't rebut anything, it just claims some people (and not even all of the people arguing with you) are hypocrites. Which has no relationship to the moral question.



I think it's amazing how we're supposed to listen and believe women unless they tell you to move on, In which case suddenly it becomes a case of I don't care what this woman wants I need to be entertained by this forty year old crime.
"Listen and believe" conflicts with "innocent until proved guilty." A better slogan would be "listen and seriously consider," but that's not really snappy. At any rate, one bad turn does not justify another.

We condemn the criminal not just for harming the victim, but also for harming society. By the time the criminal is caught, there are usually many crimes with many victims (how many speeding tickets have you been issued vs. how many you have earned?). That Polanski's personal debt has been canceled, does not mean that his societal debt is not still outstanding. But hey, it's not like he skipped town to avoid prosecution.
This case is just the same old virtue signalling bs that amounts to conversation nowadays.
Where is the virtue? What have the structural control units/nodes of our society (e.g., entertainment, news, politics, religion, finance, corporations) done to reveal that they are guided by actual virtue?

Power collects power. Power protects power. I just see powerful people getting away with it, because they're powerful. I see other powerful people covering their exit (ain't it strange that no one who actually went to Epstein's island has been prosecuted?). Strangest of all, I see the powerless defending their actions.

This isn't a demonstration of virtue, but a reminder that the emperor has no clothes.



Guys, let's chill OK? Nothing can be settled here...and nothing new can be said that hasn't already been said before...Best if this thread went away.


*this post is not a reply to any one person. It's a reply to the overall idea of this thread and to the disruption it's causing.
Really? You seemed to be having a fun time derailing the thread with Crumb.



A difficult question in art is reconciling the artwork with the artist and the cultural milieu. I prefer not to hold the artwork guilty of the sins of its maker, assuming that those sins are not depicted in the frame (e.g., a snuff film), but a film still has an implied author, a point of view, a message, and this will likely reflect cultural milieu even if it does not offer 1 to 1 correspondence with the author's private intention. And so we are confronted with statutory rape as a humourous lark in Animal House, acquaintance rape in 16 Candles, the sexualization of children in the earliest films featuring Brooke Shields and Jodie Foster, casual violence as the Terminator kneecaps security guards and Captain Marvel knocks the crap out a guy who tries to pick up on her.



Take films seriously, they're always saying something in the background, something your unconscious mind is absorbing unquestioned. They have a point of view. They have a message. And if we want to understand that message we should consider the culture of that community which makes those messages and their view of the people they're messaging.



Trouble with a capitial 'T'
Really? You seemed to be having a fun time derailing the thread with Crumb.
I care about MoFo. I don't use it for baiting other members into arguments. Nor do I create problem threads one after another...This thread is very close to a violation of MoFo's New Rules for a New Year
Specifically this passage:

Art touches on political issues. This is obviously true, and so some glancing discussion is inevitable. But he discussion has to stay on (or at least quickly return to) the cinematic side, and not branch off into its own discussion.
The thread's topic itself is about an interview that's some 15 years old, it's not topical. Nothing new happened in the Polanski case recently so it's not a current subject. Nor is it about any new interview or documentary about Polanski or Tarantino.

It has not staid on the original topic of Tarantino's views of the Polanski case...Now it's arguing about Polanski himself and rape in general including comments about other offenders.



What about people who have worked with Polanski since, including some beloved actors?
That's an interesting one. There are people who seriously believe that no one should ever put another dollar in the pocket of J.K. Rowling, which indicates an alleged moral responsibility to not consume evil.

If, however, we're not allowed to consume evil, I don't see how we can consume at all (e.g., consider how your smart phone is made, consider where your clothes are made, consider the abuse of animals in factory farms). Should I pat myself on the back for not reading Harry Potter when I am still knowingly (if not intentionally) supporting human slavery by buying a new pair of sneakers? For the public at large the question of non-consumption would require that the ranks of the Amish community swell overnight into a majority demo.

Actors, on the other hand, can pick different projects. Moreover, actors tend to select projects because they want to work with a director. Would you, as an actor, agree star in a movie directed by Jeffrey Dahmer, or R. Kelly? A lot of directors have a checkered past, where should the actor draw the line?

As an employer, I would be willing to employ an ex-con in a job, as their debt to society has been paid, so long as the job itself were not of a sensitive nature that would invite relapse into past criminal behavior. Polanski, however, has never faced justice. He flaunted the law and escaped. He never went to court. His debt is outstanding.

On the other hand, the rich and powerful tend to get away with it in the court system, in part, because of the failures of our justice system, which leaves us with the awkward fact that that societal bill is still often left unpaid even after the trial (e.g., O.J. Simpson got away with it too). Thus, submitting to the authorities is merely a necessary and not sufficient condition to answer the question.



I dare say that everyone who posts here has some sort of investment. Why is your investment special? Who made you the Hall Monitor?
I don't use it for baiting other members into arguments.
It appears, however, that you're not above character attacks.
Nor do I create problem threads one after another...
I post a lot of threads. What was inherently problematic about "Hollywood Reporter Critics Pick the 50 Best Films of the 21st Century"? There was some heated argument in that thread. Someone even got banned. What did I do in the OP which manipulated the poor minds of our fellow posters into descending into madness?

It's almost as if threads are conversations and that everyone is responsible for their part in it.
This thread is very close to a violation of MoFo's New Rules for a New Year
Specifically this passage:
Then report the thread.
The thread's topic itself is about an interview that's some 15 years old, it's not topical.
Topical to what? What is "the topic"? And who made you the arbiter of topicality?
Nothing new happened in the Polanski case recently so it's not a current subject.
Citizen Kane isn't a current subject. We still talk about it.

The interview is interesting as a time capsule. This is a moment before #metoo where cultural intuitions are beginning to clash.
It has not staid on the original topic of Tarantino's views of the Polanski case...Now it's arguing about Polanski himself and rape in general including comments about other offenders.
When rape apology enters the chat, we're somewhat obligated to address it, no?

And THAT rape apology has entered that chat strongly indicates that our views about the license of artists is still something that very much needs to be discussed(!).

We, the little people, develop odd para-social relationships with artists and art. We feel like we "know" our heroes. We develop attachments to characters, actors, and directors. There is a perceived "presence" and "immediacy" there, even though the conversation is basically one-way (we, the masses consume the product, they the makers produce the product). How we evaluate art is shaped, in part, by these odd attachments which produce these baffling apologies for intolerable behaviors. Their culture seeps into our culture, for they are the dream-weavers. Their artistic products reflect a complicated interrelation of values and attitudes (both reflector and director).

If art deserves to be protected and celebrated, if it deserves forums like this, it can only be because it has something of value to say to us. Therefore, it behooves us to ask, what is our art saying? What are our artists saying?



In one thread Corax bemoans the notion of hall monitors complaining that his comment about Gordon Lightfoot breaking a woman's jaw was derailing the purpose of his tribute thread. Apparently he can post whatever he likes if the mood suits him.


Then in his own thread that specifically is about Tarantino, me tellkng people to try and stick to Tarantino comments is considered some kind of insult to the purpose of his thread. That it's being derailed. I assume he is screaming for the hall monitor now.

Hypocrisy much?

But yeah like I said this was never intended as a Tarantino thread. It wasn't even about what Tarantino said god knows how many years ago as hes already claimed there is no need for cancellation here. Instead, he tipped his hat that the director was just being used as a Trojan horse to get one of his usual Corax threads up and running under the transparent disguise of 'but it's about movies, sort of'


Seriously, whatever dude. Have fun talking about pedophiles and grooming until youre blue in the face. Its your favorite topic after all



In one thread Corax bemoans the notion of hall monitors complaining that his comment about Gordon Lightfoot breaking a woman's jaw was derailing the purpose of his tribute thread
It was a thread noting his passage. I was recently (I didn't know and had a "Wow" moment) much struck (no pun intended) by this biographical detail. I suddenly realized how much pain and angst (real life) were poured into songs like Sundown and If You Could Read My Mind. Also, it was interesting to find this unknown (Cathy Smith) person connecting the life of Lightfoot to Belushi.

Everyone has a maggot in their past which could eat away their future. Lightfoot is a reminder that the artist sometime translates that trauma into therapy for the rest of us. There is a redemptive beauty in this little detail as well as darkness.

You can read into a biographical factoid anything you please, but I think it brings him into view as a human being and not just a some vague god to be politely venerated.

And the demand that we only venerate, that we only tribute, that we only speak well of the art and the artist is part of the problem that results in people like Tarantino apologizing for Polanski and the Hoi Polloi apologizing for Tarantino. This is a curiously conservative impulse about a mode of expression (i.e., art) which is generally understood to have the proper purpose of challenging us and shaking things up.



I'm going to use Sexy Celebrity's tension-relieving strategy from the abortion thread to stop this thread from getting locked.

__________________
San Franciscan lesbian dwarves and their tomato orgies.






It was a thread noting his passage. I was recently (I didn't know and had a "Wow" moment) much struck (no pun intended) by this biographical detail. I suddenly realized how much pain and angst (real life) were poured into songs like Sundown and If You Could Read My Mind. Also, it was interesting to find this unknown (Cathy Smith) person connecting the life of Lightfoot to Belushi.

Everyone has a maggot in their past which could eat away their future. Lightfoot is a reminder that the artist sometime translates that trauma into therapy for the rest of us. There is a redemptive beauty in this little detail as well as darkness.

You can read into a biographical factoid anything you please, but I think it brings him into view as a human being and not just a some vague god to be politely venerated.

And the demand that we only venerate, that we only tribute, that we only speak well of the art and the artist is part of the problem that results in people like Tarantino apologizing for Polanski and the Hoi Polloi apologizing for Tarantino. This is a curiously conservative impulse about a mode of expression (i.e., art) which is generally understood to have the proper purpose of challenging us and shaking things up.

That one sentence about Cathy Smith's broken jaw was sure doing a lot of heavy lifting.


And yes of course, the Gordon Lightfoot tribute thread is just yet one more road that leads to the cover up of child abuse.


It's amazing how well intentioned all of this was. How did I not see this. My apologies.


Carry on with whatever the point of all of this is.



I'm going to use Sexy Celebrity's tension-relieving strategy from the abortion thread to stop this thread from getting locked.


That chimps eyes clearly aren't smiling. This chimp is a liar.


Angrier than ever!



That one sentence about Cathy Smith's broken jaw was sure doing a lot of heavy lifting.
It was just a fact about his life. What you make of it is up to you.

And yes of course, the Gordon Lightfoot tribute thread is just yet one more road that leads to the cover up of child abuse.
Smith wasn't a child, so this wasn't child abuse. And I don't recall a cover up.


Perhaps there was something chimp-related in all of this?



You guys gotta stop watching hundreds of "pink movies" and go out in the world.
He didn't watch any pink films. He hardly watched any movies to begin with.



That chimps eyes clearly aren't smiling. This chimp is a liar.


Angrier than ever!



A system of cells interlinked
The thread has skewed pretty far into the territory of people just blasting each other for various stances on a variety of issues. Is there much left to discuss on the original topic? I don't see much compelling or constructive conversation in the thread's future, so it may be time to lock this one down. I will leave it up for a bit longer, until I can chat with Chris about it, but I am thinking this has run its course at this point.

Feel free to post arguments for leaving it open, if so inclined... or just try to get things back on track without the sole aim of dragging each other.
__________________
“Film can't just be a long line of bliss. There's something we all like about the human struggle.” ― David Lynch



The thread has skewed pretty far into the territory of people just blasting each other for various stances on a variety of issues. Is there much left to discuss on the original topic? I don't see much compelling or constructive conversation in the thread's future, so it may be time to lock this one down. I will leave it up for a bit longer, until I can chat with Chris about it, but I am thinking this has run its course at this point.

Feel free to post arguments for leaving it open, if so inclined... or just try to get things back on track without the sole aim of dragging each other.

I'm not even sure how this thread was ever supposed to be anything but this.


What are we supposed to be talking about here? A decades old interview that the person has apologized for a decade ago?


Maybe he meant the apology. Maybe he didn't. Thread over.


Jackie Brown is probably his third best movie though