Lost (Possible Spoilers)

DUDE, SPOILER TAGS! Honestly, I HATE even accidentally reading this stuff. I have no interest while the show is "current" to read the thoughts of the producers or writers on major themes and arcs of the show.

Please?? Spoiler tags? Once the season is over and we're discussing this stuff post-mortem, that's another thing entirely.

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Yeah, this is the third time that's happened. I know this stuff isn't hugely spoiler-y, but it still tells people where the show's going, and what to look for, so you need to wrap them in spoiler tags. If they're not wrapped in spoiler tags right away next time, I'm just gonna start deleting them, man.

I've been wondering about this. They seem to do things contrary to what we all reasonably assume are their general stances. For instance, lots of things point to Jacob advocating "destiny," but when Ben came to kill him Jacob insisted "you have a choice." And this wasn't a ploy, as Miles told us in "Dr. Linus" this week that Jacob was "still hoping he was wrong about you" to Ben.

So, it could be that we're wrong about who represents what. Or that we're wrong about them genuinely embodying any one principle fully. Or, they're meant to be a general embodiment, and do not necessarily reflect that principle in all that they say and do. That last one, I think, would be a tad cheap, but it feels like the most likely at the moment.


The time travel question is very, very interesting. In a narrative sense, it would be weird to return to that. But technically, it seems they might have to, if the Adam and Eve skeletons are going to be anyone we know. Two possible exceptions: 1) they're not people we know. They're important for some other reason. Or, 2) they are people we know, but there's some larger loop going on, or inter-dimensional travel, or something fairly insane like that.

Sorry, triple-post!

I have to crow a little: I've thought all season that Sayid would end up on the "bad" side and Ben the "good," and it's very gratifying to see this happen. I think it makes a good deal of sense within the narrative. The Sayid thing might not have been too hard to predict (though it was far less clear before the last several episodes), but the Ben thing was a bit trickier. I just came to feel that Ben was too interesting a character to be bad. This seems to happen on TV from time to time; a bad guy is so well-realized and so interesting that they kind of become a de facto good guy. Ben seems to be among many viewers' favorite characters (including mine), so there's a sort of sympathy there that wouldn't exist for a less rounded villain.

There are two other things, as well: first, he's clearly had a bit of an epiphany since being judged by the smoke monster (in the form of Alex), and since Alex's death in general. And second, now that we know his past, we can see that his manipulations are a bit more about survival than we'd first assumed. He's had a rough life, and been forced into some very difficult positions. I still wouldn't say he's a good person, of course, but we've certainly come to learn that he's not pure Machiavellian evil, as we'd assumed before.

That, and it rings true in that indescribable way. It feels right that Prince Humperdinck lives at the end of The Princess Bride, and it feels right to me that Ben is (probably) going to be redeemed at the end of Lost.

I am sure the Kwon on the lighthouse would be Jin as all other names are male and as said before he has been saved by Claire and even Locke to an extent. I am predicting that all the names on the lighthouse will escape the island including Locke, also that Kate will be killed. Has David's mother been shown? If not I am sure he is Kate's.

That's a bit of a leap, to assume the Kwon is Jin just because the others are male. It's not a very large sample size! Also, lots of women were thought of as candidates. The fact that they've been since ruled out (as signified by being crossed off) doesn't mean women can't be at all, or they wouldn't have been listed in the first place. Moreover, you're referring only to the list inside the cave; the name "Austen" on the lighthouse dial wasn't crossed out, and Illana said there were six candidates left. There were some other small discrepancies, indicating that Esau/Smokey/un-Locke might have tried to reproduce the list, but made a few mistakes.

David's mother has not been shown, but there's no way it's Kate. She's still a fugitive in the Flash-sideways and they didn't address each other there at all. All we got was a fleeting look of semi-remembrance when she drove by him, which isn't what you'd expected if he were actually the father of her child.

Aha, has anyone pointed out the two lists and why they exist? The lighthouse list is very precise, seems focused and has a definite purpose. It's active.

The scrawled cave list looks and feels reactive and secretive -- almost as if Smokey has been trying to figure out who the candidates are in order to wipe them out (cross them off the cave list). So, he's systematically wiping out or disqualifying potential Jacob-replacements in order to "win" whatever this battle is for control of the island. This scrawled list exists only in reaction to Jacob's lighthouse list.

Did anyone else find the parallels in this weeks FS a bit too obvious? I think as it's all new and a ride, don't mind too much but did think it was a bit too contrived and cheesy. Some people seem to think that the two times lines are informing each other, through characters actions one crossing over to the other. Don't buy that.

I'm guessing Jacob touched Micheal since his inability to kill himself and in turn meaning the Christian who appeared on the boat was Jacob. Why as Christian though is a mystery? And makes sense how Jin survived the Freighter explosion. Idk if that's an indication to him being the candidate, I still think the misdirection between the Jin and Sun is because their child will be the candidate.

Yeah Aus, that was my thoughts on the two Lists. Anyone remember when someone said about Jack 'he isn't even on Jacob's list' ?

The two teams are certainly interesting, can't buy the fact some of them will be 'Bad'. Sayid always seemed to have purest heart, in that his actions were often selfless and for greater good- despite often being 'bad'. Still want to see him do some more bad ass break-dancing, neck-breaking on Flocke.

I think Adam and Eve will be Rose and Bernard.

Couple interesting theories read- Jacob and MiB are splits of one person, which explains their dichotomy and why can't kill him. Another was that Desmond pressing the button and the fail safe storyline is the actual cause of the FS

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Well, cheesy or not, I admit I really loved "Dr. Linus." The thing is, cheesy works when you really care about the characters. I'd say this episode was a good litmus test for how invested a viewer is, at least in Ben's story. Anyway, I wouldn't say it was too obvious; I think the more they line up (within reason), the better the writing, no?

Re: timelines informing one another. I guess we'll have to wait and see, though I will say this seems a good deal more likely if we allow for the possibility that they're not separate timelines at all. I'm kinda fond of the idea that the Flash-sideways are essentially the end of the show. That we're seeing a prolonged goodbye all season long without knowing what it is.

One interesting example of this would be that the Flash-sideways Losties are simply the versions of them that grow up without the Island existing. That is to say, when they detonated Jughead in 1977, there were two of them: the ones we know, and their younger versions off-island. The theory goes that their actions in 1977 altered the path for the younger versions of themselves that they were, at that time, co-existing with. Hard to tell if this violates the "Whatever Happened, Happened" principle (though it's not clear whether or not this is actually true, I suspect that it is).

I think Sayid is definitely "bad," at least in the sense that he'll be on the wrong side of the war and things won't end happily for him. I feel like all the "bad" people may redeem themselves in some way via self-sacrifice, but that there'll still be a sharp distinction between who's on the right side, and the wrong. I imagine we all feel such an affinity for most of these people that the thought of any of them being "bad" doesn't compute at first, but it makes too much sense and, with this many people, some of those we're fond of are going to have to meet an unpleasant end. Sayid's been a killer the entire series, and hasn't even been able to escape it in the Flash-sideways.

Re: Jacob and un-Locke/Esau. Boy, I hope they don't go for some yin-yang ending. Hints so far indicate that they are going to have an actual good/evil dichotomy, which vaguely implies we won't get that sort of "there is no right or wrong way" ending. I sure hope not.

I thought this last episode was fantastic. Ben is one of my favs, though.

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RE: Ben's story, it just didn't sit right with me. Too many bits seemed a bit like the writers going 'ooh see what you we did there?! Get it, he killed his Dad with gas now he's keeping him alive with it!' Check out this Napoleon metaphor!' *pat on back* They weren't the subtle allusion they normally do so well. I liked him finding his redemption much more on the Island than with Alex as his whole 'Machiavellian' scheme was bit contrived. Maybe it's because it was essentially a different character I didn't have any empathy with FS Ben.

Another idea to cause the split was Desmond buying/not buying Penny's engagement ring from Eloise. I'm not sure if the last episode with Ben admitting to having been ON the Island indicates Jughead not exploding, as if that's Year Zero, if you will, for the FS - would he have been able to get off the Island before the explosion?

Also, now we know about Candidates not being able to kill themselves- does this explain the why Juliet couldn't get the bomb to explode?

It's so funny how different people can have such different perspectives on the same piece of fiction! Interesting stuff. Random thoughts about it:

I didn't pick up on the gas thing at first, so I guess I can't possibly call it obvious. I thought his scheme was plenty realistic, but to each their own there. Most importantly, though, I think he's obviously a pretty similar character to the Ben we all know. Clearly, whoever these Flash-sideways people are, they have an awful lot in common with their real-world counterparts. I feel less attachment to them, certainly, but not none.

Also, wouldn't those two issues kind of be at odds with one another, anyway? If it's a problem that it's harder to relate to them, how it can it also be a problem that they're mirroring each other more? The latter would seem to help with the former.

Re: subtle. We'll definitely have to agree to disagree here. I feel it was about as subtle as we can expect, given that they are trying to show us a mirror of some kind here. I'm not sure how relatively subtle some of the flashbacks in earlier seasons were, really, but either way a lot of these characters are reaching the very end of their arc, so it seems fitting that these things are not just influencing current choices, but basically embodying them. And, again, they might have to be blatantly related, depending on what the Flash-sideways' even are.

Re: Year Zero. Yes, we're seeing that this world's differences go further back all the time. At first the implication/assumption was that this is a world where flight 815 lands, but we quickly learn that it has other differences which predate that. And with the revelation about Flash-sideways Ben leaving the island (almost certainly pre-Incident, if the Incident still exists, of course), it must go further back still. I think the idea that the Flash-sideways world is a Jacob-less world is a pretty decent theory. I do think the show is toying with us a little, though, and that Jughead probably didn't do anything they intended it to. It's kind of a silly plan (even for Lost), anyway. I think we'll probably learn that the actual cause of whatever Juliet said "worked" is them stopping Dhrama from drilling into the pocket of energy, and not detonating Jughead.

It was more the mirroring seemed like objective criticism of the writing and the lack of empathy was my subjective reaction.

Yeah, i get what you're saying on what how the similarities in FS may be intrinsic to it's purpose but just thought it was a very straight forward message delivered through a rickety set up and seemed to straightforward with little room for interpretation.

Re: Year Zero. It seems like a waste of Jughead was just a big red herring and would undercut a lot of Season 5, leaving Flocke's con as it's main purpose. But i haven't rewatched that Season yet and may pick up on more things. The Jacob-less part is fairly obvious at this point but he didn't 'touch' everyone in Normal Time Line at the same points a change has happened in FS so I think there's more to it somehow. I think the why aspect of FS is vaguely clear at this point but interesting in 'how' the FS came into being. If it was a simple Mirror world with one minor alteration, that would mean an infinite amount of variations and don't think they'll go route and a parallel universe runs to close Abram's Fringe.

Anyway, a more direct question to Lost, is Widmore Wallace and who's side is he on?

A lot of people seem to think that (re: Wallace). I suppose it could be, though I rather prefer the idea that Wallace is someone else who's on that sub with Widmore. Having Wallace be Widmore's birth name, or something of the sort, is certainly plausible, but a little on the cheap side. Not sure which is more likely. I also wonder if it matters; we're assuming Wallace is significant because Jacob wanted the dial turned to 108 (where Wallace is written, of course), but Jacob didn't seem at all surprised or perturbed that Jack broke the mirror before doing this. It's entirely possible that Wallace is irrelevant, then, and that Widmore found the island some other way. The two most likely alternatives, I think, are 1) he was bound to find it once Jacob was killed, or 2) the breaking of the mirror drew him there somehow.

Very torn on Widmore. He's probably the closes to being a true toss-up, though probably because we haven't seen how he responds to Jacob or un-Locke directly yet. Here's my general sense of the reasons for each possibility:

In the Jacob column:

• Has always revered the island
• Was once a follower of Jacob's
• Has become a slightly more sympathetic character (see: his last words to Desmond)

In the Esau column:

• Has seemed more bad than good
• Broke island rules
• Is generally opposed to Ben, who seems safely in Jacob's camp

I'll go with the latter; I think the reasons there are stronger, and another seeming-bad-guy-redeemed scenario might be a little much.

Another question, in the same vein as yours, Pyro: are Widmore and whoever's with him the "they" Jacob mentioned with his dying words ("they're coming")? I say yes, because Widmore's appearance ties up the "help someone find the island" and the "they're coming" mysteries with one event, and as we near the end we'll probably see more events tying up multiple loose ends in this manner.

My two counter points on Widmore are, one, that he seemed surprised when Locke said he had to die and seemed to look out for him with Cedric Daniels but on the flip, which seems to hold more weight, Brahm said to Miles he was on the wrong team when he joined Widmore's Freighter. One thing I would like tied up is his deal with Eloise and why she couldn't get him to the Island before.

I'm yet to be convinced that Widmore's arrival will be a massive game changer or have much gravitas overall on the story, his power on the Island doesn't seem to match what we're left with. I agree that Jacob's death may have let him find the Island and 'they' could be him and his Sub. It seems a bit late to have yet another 'they come, corrupt and destroy' cycle when it's seemingly close to 'the end'. His navigator seemed surprised to see there were people on the beach as though they weren't who he was looking for. I'm going to wager he's heading to the Hydra Island and if he is on MiBs side he's being mislead thinking it's Jacob, possibly (though evidence seems to suggest MiB can't exert influence outside the Island) or MiB did a 'what if i said... when Jacob's dead you can have *insert desire*'. I could ramble forever by feel of it.... If they are Jacob's 'they' wouldn't that mean a threat to MiB, who's opposed to people coming to the Island? So Widmore would be on Jacob's side with what you said?

Just a random thought here ... I think Widmore could easily be on Jacob's side, especially if you are putting him in juxtaposition with Ben. Remember that, for quite a long time, Ben "listened" to Jacob (though he never actually heard him and, I think, partly relied on Richard's association with Jacob) ... but he always resented him and resented being ignored. This is precisely why MiB had so little difficulty in getting Ben to stab Jacob and kill him. It was only in this very recent episode that we've seen Ben truly come to terms with his underlying hatred of Jacob.

Prior to this, Ben seemed to have more success in summoning Smokey (MiB) and getting what he wanted that way (including killing a bunch of freighter people and his own absolution underground when Smokey let him live) than he ever had dealing with Jacob.

So, Widmore could still be aligned with either side. I am, though, inclined to think the writers want our gut reaction to be something just this simple:

-- MiB/Smokey is bad and scary and kills people in droves (starting in the pilot episodes with the, uh, pilot) and wants power.

-- Sayid and Claire have been "possessed" by Smokey and are now in the bad camp. We've seen both of them kill people (protective Others) rather ruthlessly in the past few episodes.

-- Ben feared both Jacob and Smokey but got more satisfaction from Smokey until recently and has now truly "repented" of his past and is a good guy.

-- Since he's now pro-Jacob, that must mean Jacob is the good guy. We have yet to see Jacob actually kill anyone (isn't that right, or am I forgetting anything?), and in fact, we've seen him do some semi-benevolent things. He's come across as gentle and kind and empathetic. And of course, he's blond (in contrast with Smokey/MiB's darker hair and tones and, well, smoke).

-- It has been mentioned that people are coming and it's supposed to sound and feel ominous. We are not supposed to feel good about their arrival.

Now, granted, it is possible that these feelings we are getting from the natural progression of the plotlines and music and ambiance are all red herrings -- but honestly, if they are, a lot of viewers will be extremely upset about how cheesy and unfair that would be at this point. There are GOOD ways to throw people off the track of the real plotlines and endings for things -- and red herrings like this ain't it.

What would annoy me is if the Sub had all their kids in it, giving more Candidates through lineage.

I think they can wrap up the Eloise thing pretty easily. Widmore knows about their son and has plenty of power to leverage something like that. I imagine it took her awhile because it's just hard, even with The Lamp Post. Or perhaps it just took awhile to convince her.

Re: Locke dying. I think his surprise at this just tells us he wasn't on Esau's side when that happened (or didn't have highly specific instructions about what to do). I don't think Widmore's a Team Jacob guy, but I do think it's a toss-up as to whether or not he's already loyal to Esau, or merely will be later.

Anyway, the Brahm thing is probably the most sailent point. One could make an argument either way, but all the most compelling stuff points to Widmore being bad.

I have to imagine Widmore will do at least one important thing, or cause someone else to, otherwise he's an odd character to introduce this late. I have faith that, in that general regard, the writers are on top of things.

Anyway, though Widmore looks a good deal smaller now, he's still got a lot of pull. I'm not sure if that tiny sub came all that way by itself, or if he's got another freighter full of minions tailing him. I daresay we'll find out a lot more about how he got there tonight, though.

I'm not sure if the "they" in "they come, they corrupt..." is necessarily the same "they" in "they're coming," though. And I'm wondering if Jacob meant that in a threatening way, a warning way (perhaps it's bad for both of them?), or what. Perhaps Widmore is bad, but still on his own side, and thus a threat to both sides of the war.

Some amusing stuff. First, a quote from a column I read recently:

Also, an amusing video about how not to die on Lost. Obviously, spoilers abound for anyone who isn't almost completely caught up:

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You wouldn't want to see Wallace Widmore, born at 8:15 on April 16th, 23 years of age?