The MoFos Top 100 of the 90s Countdown - Redux

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Victim of The Night
Liking it because it's fun is perfectly fine. But I think the "it's not really satire" thing is not running afoul of fun, because it's specifically a response to the people trying to elevate it beyond mere fun into something profound.


I think the audience missed it because the film itself gets wrapped up in the fun and forgets it's supposed to be condemning things, and/or doesn't actually now how to do that in a clever way. There's no coherent vision of what it actually wants to say about the thing it's supposed to be satirizing. It just sort of points and gawks at it like "isn't this absurd?" But it's fundamentally absurd even to the people who like what its depicting, so that doesn't do anything or even signal satirical intent, nevermind satirical accomplishment.

It's a giant bug space movie and it spends so much time on that visual that it has no time for anything else. Being told it's biting satire is like being told Transformers is a skewering of the military-industrial complex.
I agree completely.
I have seen the movie a few times, including in the theater, and I even re-watched it after having a friend give me his extremely long diatribe about how it's this brilliant satire and even sent me articles and videos - which I did read and watch - so that I could finally fully embrace the brilliance of this brilliant satire...
And it was ok.
When I first saw it in the theater I thought it was a very cheesy space-bug movie with surprisingly high production value. I later felt that, yes I get the satire but is it really great or even very good satire?
And after a, what, fifth viewing, having listened to a diatribe and read the articles and watched the videos I still thought it wasn't nearly as clever as its fans claim it is and probably I read it right the second time. Which is that it is an intentionally corny-and-fun, winking-level satire, cute but hardly brilliant, that is also a big bang-bang space-bug movie and probably succeeds more as the latter than the former.
At the end of the day, I liked the book better anyway.



My pants ran off with an antelope.
I thought about it (I'm tired and preoccupied) and I think Starship Troopers looks dumb because it's supposed to look dumb, and I mean this as a mild positive. Like it's a slap in the face of its subject matter (which I've seen discussed in this thread). Also I've seen pieces of it without context so I definitely missed stuff.

Does that mean I'd like, or even love, or perhaps at least not hate, the movie if I sat down and watched it? That's unknown until I, well, watch it. I think I was too dismissive earlier. My bad.

I still don't like American Beauty (I bring it up because it appeared at the same time).
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People have mentioned that Starship Troopers satirized fascism, militarism and even satirized the pro militaristic ideas of the novel on which it was based. But Starship Troopers is much more than just the obvious satire.

Starship Troopers is a prime example of the unreliable narrator. The entire movie is told from the fascist human's perspective. The information we get is from the Nazi like government or from old patriotic soldiers or gung hu recruits. Even the entertainingly over the top satire in the Do you want to know more? information spots, works to bend the mind of the movie viewer and convince them of a lie. Most, including myself on the first viewing bought what I was told by the movie, hook line and sinker.

Starship Troopers is propagandist and done in the vein of the infamous Der ewige Jude (1940). Those type of messages work as people are prone to believe what they are told, especially when that misinformation is being presented as factual and coming from what appears to be reliable sources.

Watch Starship Troopers and you'll probably believe the humans are the good guys even though they look like and act like Nazis...and that the bugs are evil beings capable of launching attacks on Earth to wipe out humanity by steering asteroids half way across the galaxy. Which of course they can't do. That's a false flag and it drives the movie forward with scenes of a dead dog in the rubble and humans hell bent on revenge to kill evil bugs. Like real Nazi propaganda films the enemy bugs are portrayed as evil and a threat by creating false 'truths'. But it's the humans who are evil in Starship Troopers and the bugs are the innocents who are slaughtered because they're considered ugly and different...we cheer to see them die like good little militaristic supporters.

Verhoeven as a child witnessed the horrors of Nazi occupation in his home in the Netherlands. He show us how easily it is to fall for propagandist messages even when they're 'hidden' in plain sight.


Starship Troopers was #4 on my ballot.
Darn, you're making a good case. Maybe I need to take a second look.

Didn't know that about Verhoeven's background. I like his more serious works. (Ok, let's not get too wrapped up in my definition of "serious." ) His "Black Book" would easily make my list of best films of the 2000s.
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After RoboCop I was really high on Verhoeven and was looking forward to what was coming next, but that high quickly sank. There were some alright movies, but several I flat out disliked, that did have fans or eventual fans (Showgirls has become a cult fave I gather, but for me that's a nope). I found I preferred those he made back home (or there abouts) away from Hollywood - Keetje Tippel, Soldier of Orange, Black Book and especially the disturbing The 4th Man (still haven't been able to track down Spetters)



A system of cells interlinked
I forget who mentioned it, but someone mentioned they prefer war films that aren't focused on battles/the battlefield, and I meant to recommend:

Tangerines ( Urushadze, 2013)



Track this one down and see it. Excellent film that fits the "films about people on the fringes of war" category.
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I saw American Beauty once at the cinema and I liked it well enough, but it was too much of a downer for me, what with Spacey's wife and daughter hating him for whatever reason, him rebelling, then us spending the movie wondering who was going to kill him, with a subplot of him lusting after an underage girl (played by Mena Suvari, who was 20 at the time, but still) and then his daughter baring her breasts to a male neighbor she liked (Thora Birch played the daughter and she got topless at age 17, so mixed messages?), the same male neighbor who filmed a plastic bag being blown around by the wind in the gutter and getting all weepy over it? I don't know...in the end it just wasn't rewatch material for me, for the reasons stated above, and more I don't have time to write about.

Starship Troopers is a entertaining blast, and Paul Verhoven can have all the satire he wants in his movies (and I recognize some of it) but for this one, I just liked it for the giant monster bugs, especially the ones who blow plasma out of their butts! I laughed pretty hard at that visual. And although Denise Richards was a cute as could be in this, I preferred Dina Meyer, whose character's fate I would have rather she had switched with Richards, but what the hey...she still kicked ass in this. Plus, the greatness of Michael Ironside, so cool with his metal arm and no-nonsense approach to fighting bugs. And Clancy Brown! Yes! Two genre greats in the same movie? What's not to love? Then there's Rue McClanahan as a bug-killing professor. And Doogie Howser himself as a psychic mind reader of bugs. Wow. This movie is just top-loaded with talent and fun. And that's how I took it, as just all-out fun. Sadly, I cut this one off my list for two other Sci-Fi films, and now I'm wondering if I made the right choice. Oh well.

My list:
#18 The Fifth Element list proper #56
#25 Apollo 13 list proper #68
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Been quiet for a couple days because I'm really ill at the mo...

Starship Troopers is my #2 pick

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Seen both of these, American Beauty fairly recently. Thought I'd reviewed it, but I guess not.

I did not care for it. I'd seen at least two of the Family Guy parodies beforehand, but even putting those scenes aside, it is exactly the sort of drama I give absolutely zero shits about and then on top of that it desperately wants to be some artsy-fartsy crap at the same time.


I've seen Starship Troopers only once I think? Even before seeing Yoda's spiel, I never quite got the "it's a satire" vibe from it. People act like it's Idiocracy or something. How many other movies feature equally as brief segments enthusiastically playing up dystopic concepts? The Running Man, Demolition Man, Death Race 2000, Repo!: The Genetic Opera, etc.

But because Starship Troopers is an explicitly military setting it's suddenly a commentary on fascism or something? I wonder how the people who feel Starship Troopers is an accurate depiction of fascism feel about women and minorities in the military? Let alone the locker room shower.



Frankly, the shower scene is the only part of it I really remember. Perhaps because society still hasn't grown up to the point that mature adults can coexist in the same room naked together without it being weird.

But instead of being something we aspire to, it's a "satire" of something to avoid. Honestly it's all kinda depressing.

**** tho.
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Last year when Helldivers 2 was popular for awhile among gamers, I kept saying I'd go back and revisit Starship Troopers, since I hadn't seen it in well over a decade. I never did get around to it, and thus don't know how I'd feel about the film today. I only really remember a few keys scenes, and it being fun overall, but otherwise underwhelming. The lead up to this Countdown would've been the perfect opportunity to finally get around to it... if I had remembered it while compiling my shortlist. Unfortunately, I did not.

American Beauty is another film I really only remember the broad strokes for. I saw it on the movie network when I was younger, and years later we covered it in one of my film classes in university, but that was so long ago now that I'm struggling to remember anything other than the intro, the ending, and that iconic poster. It is, however, one of the first films I think about when trying to remember what came out that decade, so that has to count for something, right?

Seen: 36/56

My List: 9

04. Barton Fink (1991) - #57
05. Raise the Red Lantern (1991) - #51
07. Strange Days (1995) - #82
10. Cure (1997) - #54
11. Gattaca (1997) - #86
13. Princess Mononoke (1997) - #65
18. Total Recall (1990) - #87
22. 12 Monkeys (1995) - #50
23. Perfect Blue (1997) - #63



Two more films from my ballot. Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels was my #14. It's rough around the edges, immature, and, most of all, tons of fun.

Starship Troopers was my #2. It may be a notch below RoboCop, but that doesn't mean it isn't great. It works as an action movie, and it works as a satire. And yes, I like the book, too. They're very different in multiple ways, but I don't have any problems liking both. I even think that the book's concept of society makes sense (or at least my memory of it, it's been a while since I read it).

American Beauty was, again, one of the late cuts, and like the others I've mentioned before, I was going to rewatch it but never did.

---
Seen: 26/56
02. Starship Troopers (1997)
08. Cure (1997)
14. Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels (1998)
16. Interview with the Vampire (1994)
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Saw American Beauty at the cinema with my wife 2 years before we were married, and it's been a favorite for both of us ever since. There's a lot to relate to when you're married and you reach a certain age, and Lester Burnham is one of my favorite characters. I know Spacey was involved in some real life controversy, I couldn't care less. I also think the movie is hilarious.

Seen Starship Troopers once and didn't care for it. I like several of the directors films so I'd like to try it again.

5. American Beauty (#45)
8. Carlito's Way (#62)
14. The Player (#52)
15. Strange Days (#82)
24. Three Colors: Red (#90)



Since I was not a youngster when Starship Troopers came out, I did not see it. I loved Heinlein's adventure stories when I was a kid. But this movie didn't even register on my radar.

I have see Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels. I'm not really a Guy Ritchie fan. It was okay.
The Nightmare Before Christmas and American Beauty are both wonderful movies. The Nightmare is charming and Beauty is creepy. It has wonderful performances especially Chris Cooper and Annette Bening.

None of these are on my list.



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American Beauty is great.
Starship Troopers is VERY good.

Me is happy both made the list, despite neither making mine.
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Trouble with a capitial 'T'
Glad to see American Beauty make the countdown. I thought highly of it when I watched it years ago but like Dadgumblah said I just don't want to watch it again. I did previously write this:


American Beauty (Sam Mendes 1999)

It's all about obsession! Am I right?


That's how I see American Beauty, it's about obsession and how it manifest itself in different people. Carolyn (Annette Bening) has gone nuts over obsessing over the 'good life'. She has a $4000 couch with Italian silk fabric, and it's ugly! But she doesn't care, she's obsessed to have it all...an in doing so she's forgotten the care free girl that she once was back in college.

Their daughter Jane (Thora Birch) is obsessed with breast augmentation, though they looked plenty big to me. She's been saving her money since she first started baby sitting, probably when she didn't even have any breast and now that's she grown she doesn't realize they've grown too. That's obsession.

Her friend Angela (Mena Suvari) is bonkers obsessed with not being ordinary. She goes to great links to make herself out as a bold, daring, sex crazed girl...and yet in the end she's a virgin who just talked real big.

Then there's the guy next door Ricky (Wes Bently) with the camera. OK he's obsessed with capturing moments of beauty on film. Even if it's a dead bird, he's obsessed to capture those fleeting moments and save them. That's why he has a wall of shelves in his room, for all those videos he's made and saved.

There is his dad the marine dude (Chris Cooper) he's obsessed with control and maybe obsessed with being or not being gay.

Well, what about Kevin Spacey, He doesn't seem obsessed, in fact he's utterly complaisant, a doormat with a vacant smile on his face. His highlight is jerking off in the shower. That's it, that's all he's got to look forward to. He's the only one who's not obsessed. Through his character we see how being true to one's inner self, is so much better than being obsessed about stuff that doesn't even matter.

Of course other people's obsessions effect him and that's why he's dead.

+



Pfft American Beauty. It's...fine. When do you guys think Happiness is going to show up?

Starship Troopers is...fun satire! And all of you nitpicking at what quality of satire it is are just big brain bugs.
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When do you guys think Happiness is going to show up?

OOF


Let's just let that movie lie among titles like Salo, Gummo, and Irreversible. Let it rest.



Starship Troopers is pretty great, though it didn't make my ballot.

American Beauty doesn't do much for me.
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I just watched Strange Days. That movie was ****ing nuts broh. Kathy Bigs went HARD broh. I think both Ralph Fiennes and Juliette Lewis were miscast. I wanted someone a little sleazier and squirrely as Lenny and I don’t think Lewis had the darkness in her to get to where she needed to be for this role.

The movie recently popped up on Hulu. They musta heard we were doing this countdown.