Vote on the next countdown (Feb. 2023)

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What should the next countdown be?
47.37%
27 votes
War
35.09%
20 votes
Noir
35.09%
20 votes
Musicals
22.81%
13 votes
Romance
57 votes. You may not vote on this poll




You could explain why it's important to you. Or why you think it's more important than the other considerations I mentioned. Or anything other than "it'll be mostly films that have been on other lists" and letting that sit there as if it speaks for itself. Anything that might advance the discussion/open some kind of dialogue/maybe even persuade some people.
Did you do that....did you want the discussion added to or did you send me a pm and publicly ask me not to talk about it in the thread. This is from two years ago and after a year of me not talking about it. You are asking me to persuade people....whatever that means but you are also telling me not to talk about it. I don't think it's a discussion in good faith when I have to convince a moderator that the topic is valid. If it's not a problem for you why are you sending me private messages oh here's how we get to that.

I'm starting to get the impression that you regard private messages as somehow aggressive or hostile. They aren't. It's actually the opposite: calling someone out in public, demanding a response in front of everyone else (like what you're doing now), is the more aggressive thing. Contacting someone in private takes discussion impediments like pride and face-saving out of it, and (in theory) allows for more candid and nuanced conversation. It also means not subjecting other people to all this kind of stuff if it isn't strictly necessary.

Once again this is your opinion, and in a surprising twist you somehow don't agree. I was pretty clear how uncomfortable I was with your pms. You said you were going to ignore my feelings on the matter. Now if this were about following board rules that would be one thing. But we aren't talking about board rules we're talking about a discussion topic. You might not have thought that your pm's were threatening that certainly wasn't the vibe or tone that I got. It's one thing to express your opinion and preferences on an open forum when you decide to exercise your preferences through pm you are doing so in office as the moderator.

If you're only speaking for yourself, then you would have to go on to make some kind of case for why it's a problem. But if you don't ever really make that case, it implies the problem is self-evident, which is how we get to speaking for other people: not elaborating implies the problem is obvious and/or universal, rather than idiosyncratic.
Which is it...do I never make the case or do I never really make the case. It's like saying you don't ever really get pregnant except for that time you got pregnant but most of the time you aren't pregnant. What is evident is you have the ability to censor posts and opinions on matters that you don't like. That is an imbalance of power I have to convince you yet you constantly make statements that are incredibly inconsistent.

I'm willing to believe you when you say this was not your intent, but hopefully you can see how it comes across that way.

It's pretty disingenuous to repeat the thing we've argued about before, in a clearly dissatisfied way, and say it isn't arguing. Complaints are inherently argumentative, because complaints mean something isn't right. You wouldn't tell your waiter the order's wrong and say "but don't fix it, I just really wanted you to know."
The counter point is going to a restaurant and saying...what you're serving food in this establishment. This is a discussion topic, but because you don't like the topic you feel like it's an argument or a complaint.

Well, first, I didn't say "all the time." So yeah, it's factually wrong. It's also factually wrong to say I said it. You can quote me loosely, or you can be pedantic about what you said, but you can't do both.

Second, this can't be refuted with calendar time ("I last said it a year ago!") because we only do a couple of countdowns a year to begin with. You could bring it up every countdown and still honestly say you "haven't brought it up in eight months!" or something like that. Before the last time, you mentioned it twice in (relatively) short succession. What matters is the hit rate.

Here are the facts the issue was brought up in January of 2022 and June of 2021. I did not bring this topic up in the last two countdowns, as you've pointed this out we only do a couple of these a year. Now try and put yourself in my pedantic idiosyncratic shoes. I make a post that I feel is innocuous but accurate then I log back in thinking maybe theirs a conversation to be had or a simple noted...but instead a PM from the moderator bringing up something from years ago. Mind you that you aren't refuting that I'm wrong that this actually isn't going to happen but rather you don't see the point. Not only do you not see the point is so minor or peculiar that it needs to be censored edited and basically hidden.

Third, the frequency is the least important part. The more important thing is the repetition of bringing it up and just sort of leaving it at that, repeating the opening each time. I'm fine with you making an earnest case every single time if you want, but that's not what happens.
The earnest case that I bring up annually. Well except in a shocking twist of events you don't think the "calendar" matters. You tell me that you are "fine" with me bringing this up but then you've said you don't want it brought up in the thread. Do you think you are making your case in good faith

Also, I'm not sure you appreciate how significant it is for you to throw out an accusation of authority abuse. It's the most serious accusation you can make towards a moderator, and it basically forces me to address all this in public. And I'm not seeing any explanation or defense of it, still. From what I can tell, you invented a fear about me banning you for arguing (literally over my own reassurances inviting you to respond to me), it made you uncomfortable, and you just transferred that onto several otherwise innocuous communications and decided it must mean I was doing something wrong.

This is what I like to refer to as a logic pretzel. I just spent an hour attempting to refute what is in essence your opinions. When confronted by facts...those facts don't matter (to you). When I make a case you don't say the case isn't good enough rather you seem to argue that it doesn't exist. You say it's innocuous but it's also pedantic and idiosyncratic and you just don't feel like the posts are valid. Here is my suggestion for you...try and think that maybe you are wrong about 20%. In place of thinking that everything I'm saying is wrong put it on a scale of what is the most wrong to the least wrong.



... I make a post that I feel is innocuous but accurate then I log back in thinking maybe theirs a conversation to be had or a simple noted...but instead a PM from the moderator bringing up something from years ago. Mind you that you aren't refuting that I'm wrong that this actually isn't going to happen but rather you don't see the point. Not only do you not see the point is so minor or peculiar that it needs to be censored edited and basically hidden....
Are you saying your original post was deleted or edited? If so then it must have been a violation.

So I don't know what you originally said to start all this?...but can you just walk away from it? Please....Do it for all of us so we can enjoy the countdown.



I'm going to group some of this together, because several of them are basically the same claim, and because I'm sure neither of us like sinking tons of time into this:

publicly ask me not to talk about it in the thread.
you are also telling me not to talk about it.
I don't think it's a discussion in good faith when I have to convince a moderator that the topic is valid.
you've said you don't want it brought up in the thread.
All of these claims are based on the idea that I told you "not to talk about it." But I didn't do that. I'll even quote myself, from both this exchange and previous ones:
"If you want to discuss it, cool, but that means replying to my reply"
"if you want to finish this discussion ... I'd be happy to link you to the last post on the topic where I questioned the premise"
"I don't care if you mention it, or mention it 'too many times.' I care if you repeat it over and over without really engaging with responses or objections to it"
I honestly don't understand how you can hear "if you want to discuss it, cool" or "I'd be happy to link you to the last post on the topic" and come away with the idea that I'm telling you not to talk about it. Those are direct quotes of me inviting you to talk about it. I'm just making the (very simple) distinction between responding to people who respond to you, and just repeating the complaint. Not only is that the polite thing to do, it's just more effective/productive, anyway.

What is evident is you have the ability to censor posts and opinions on matters that you don't like.
And have I done that? Have I ever edited or deleted a single word of yours on this topic?

This is a discussion topic, but because you don't like the topic you feel like it's an argument or a complaint.
Like I said, this just feels disingenuous. First, you're obviously raising the issue as a negative. And second, we've argued about it multiple times in the past. Of course it's a complaint. If you don't think it comes off that way, then I fear we have an utterly unbridgeable gap of understanding in how opinions are expressed.

In place of thinking that everything I'm saying is wrong put it on a scale of what is the most wrong to the least wrong.
Not only did I not say everything you're saying is wrong, I specifically went out of my way to point out where I thought you were being reasonable. This is from my very first reply to you in this thread:
"It's totally reasonable to care about that, and to value the countdowns primarily for that
I said basically the same thing the last few times we discussed this, as well. Do you just not remember this stuff, or what? Because this seems to be a common thread. You feel threatened by authority I've never used, you think I'm telling you not to say things when I'm specifically inviting you to expound on them, and you think I'm telling you you're always wrong when I'm explicitly saying the opinion itself is reasonable. How on earth does that happen?



Are you saying your original post was deleted or edited? If so then it must have been a violation.
I have not deleted or edited any of his posts on this topic, no.

Off the top of my head, I think I had to remove some during an argument in one of the Halls, but I think it was one of those "I'm deleting all posts past this point in the argument" things, nothing singling anyone out or targeting any specific idea. In the interest of transparency, I'd be happy to run a search on the moderator log to list exactly what that consisted of, if anyone wants me to.

So I don't know what you originally said to start all this?...but can you just walk away from it? Please....Do it for all of us so we can enjoy the countdown.
I think this is a perfect example for why private communication is a good and necessary outlet sometimes. It would obviously be better to hash at least some of this out privately rather than distract from the countdown with it.



Okay, this has to be some elaborate promo for enforcing ‘war’ as the next countdown list. It just has to be.

But y’all won now. You can stop. I promise I’ll put this thread discussion on my list if it’s allowed.

All I want now is All Quiet on the Mofo Forum. Y’all can be Saving Private Messages and use them against each other all you want, I just don’t wanna be the judge of who’s Master and Commander on the Far Side of the Web… we need the Back Talk Down now - all the way down - and let’s just enjoy movies together like we love!



Okay, this has to be some elaborate promo for enforcing ‘war’ as the next countdown list. It just has to be.

But y’all won now. You can stop. I promise I’ll put this thread discussion on my list if it’s allowed.

All I want now is All Quiet on the Mofo Forum. Y’all can be Saving Private Messages and use them against each other all you want, I just don’t wanna be the judge of who’s Master and Commander on the Far Side of the Web… we need the Back Talk Down now - all the way down - and let’s just enjoy movies together like we love!

I assume you didn't get sent the memo on our conspiracy to rig- well, I assume you didn't get the memo.



I guess we'll discuss the countdown simultaneously with...all the other stuff.

Is it Keyser, then? Asking only because it would've been easy for me to miss anyone throwing their hat into the ring. If they did, we don't actually have a protocol for it: any time more than one person has wanted to host we've usually just let them figure it out amongst themselves. But if one person stepped forward, then hey, we don't need any protocol.




__________________
"Film is a disease. When it infects your bloodstream it takes over as the number one hormone. It bosses the enzymes, directs the pineal gland, plays Iago to your psyche. As with heroin, the antidote to Film is more Film." - Frank Capra



The trick is not minding
I guess we'll discuss the countdown simultaneously with...all the other stuff.

Is it Keyser, then? Asking only because it would've been easy for me to miss anyone throwing their hat into the ring. If they did, we don't actually have a protocol for it: any time more than one person has wanted to host we've usually just let them figure it out amongst themselves. But if one person stepped forward, then hey, we don't need any protocol.
Yes, Keyser volunteered early in the process making things much simpler.



Cool. @KeyserCorleone, do you want/need to start any threads or discussions or polls about eligibility or anything else, or can I drop you a PM to talk about the timeline/the various little things you and I need to work on behind the scenes?



I guess we'll discuss the countdown simultaneously with...all the other stuff.

Is it Keyser, then? Asking only because it would've been easy for me to miss anyone throwing their hat into the ring. If they did, we don't actually have a protocol for it: any time more than one person has wanted to host we've usually just let them figure it out amongst themselves. But if one person stepped forward, then hey, we don't need any protocol.

I would only really want to host if it's war. Maybe noir.



Cool. @KeyserCorleone, do you want/need to start any threads or discussions or polls about eligibility or anything else, or can I drop you a PM to talk about the timeline/the various little things you and I need to work on behind the scenes?

I've never run one before, but from observations, the first thing that comes to mind is how to implement the posters into the different revelations and link them. That seems to be only approachable with a PM. As for starting a thread, the first thing that comes to mind is direct eligibility for voting. There's also how long the prelims last and the voting process. I have a couple simply put thoughts on this, but should we start a thread just in case?



I've never run one before, but from observations, the first thing that comes to mind is how to implement the posters into the different revelations and link them.
Indeed. For the last few countdowns, that's been integrated into the ballot software and about 95% of that work is automated. Some of it is unavoidably manual, but it's very little overall. I can explain in more detail privately, particularly if that helps you make any of the initial choices.

That said, you don't have to use the systems we've used the last few times. I think they work really well and make things much easier, but I feel pretty strongly that my role should be mostly logistical support, so if you decided you wanted to do manual ballots and manually compile posters and info, or just the latter, or whatever, that'd be fine. The host gets a lot of freedom, since they do a lot of work.

As for starting a thread, the first thing that comes to mind is direct eligibility for voting. There's also how long the prelims last and the voting process. I have a couple simply put thoughts on this, but should we start a thread just in case?
That, too, is up to you! You can just make the decision unilaterally, you can invite discussion and then decide, you can create a poll and abide by the results, or just use the results to influence your choice, or whatever.

I have opinions on the best way to do <whatever>, of course, but for the most part I think all these options are reasonable and I'm on board for each host making each countdown their own in various ways, if they want to.



Indeed. For the last few countdowns, that's been integrated into the ballot software and about 95% of that work is automated. Some of it is unavoidably manual, but it's very little overall. I can explain in more detail privately, particularly if that helps you make any of the initial choices.

That said, you don't have to use the systems we've used the last few times. I think they work really well and make things much easier, but I feel pretty strongly that my role should be mostly logistical support, so if you decided you wanted to do manual ballots and manually compile posters and info, or just the latter, or whatever, that'd be fine. The host gets a lot of freedom, since they do a lot of work.


That, too, is up to you! You can just make the decision unilaterally, you can invite discussion and then decide, you can create a poll and abide by the results, or just use the results to influence your choice, or whatever.

I have opinions on the best way to do <whatever>, of course, but for the most part I think all these options are reasonable and I'm on board for each host making each countdown their own in various ways, if they want to.

Then this is something I'm gonna put some thought in, but it won't take too long. But my focus is gonna be on this and I'll think about how to put together the preliminary thread without looking totally helpless. God I'm glad cheap pop music helps me think. Thanks Donnie Wahlberg.



Then this is something I'm gonna put some thought in, but it won't take too long. But my focus is gonna be on this and I'll think about how to put together the preliminary thread without looking totally helpless. God I'm glad cheap pop music helps me think. Thanks Donnie Wahlberg.
Sounds great. Gimme a quick ping before posting anything, if you could, just so I can make sure we're on the same page tech-wise and timeline-wise and all that. But no huge rush (despite what everyone else will tell you ).



By the way, as a peace offering of sorts, I'd like to draw attention to these posts from a couple of years back:

Maybe one day we need a 'films that haven't been on any other list' list.
This is...maybe actually a great idea?
It would probably have to wait until after we did the 2010s list or it would just be full of 2010s films.
Very good point, I agree. If anyone wants to delve into this, let's do it in Suggestions for future countdowns.
I don't think anybody followed up or posted anything in that linked thread after, unfortunately. I still think this is a cool idea, though. I like that it's simultaneously wide open, but also forces people to really think about what to choose and surprise us. If someone put this option in the next poll, I would almost definitely vote for it, and I'd be fine with Siddon hosting it, as well.



@KeyserCorleone
Take a look at the thread linked below, it contains links to all the past countdowns and all the past preliminary countdown threads. That way you can see how other countdown host did it and maybe get inspired. I know you're skilled with artwork so maybe you'll do you own artwork, I always enjoyed seeing the different ways host presented the movies on the countdown.

https://www.movieforums.com/communit...ad.php?t=63339



There is ONE thing I'd like to mention. What am I allowed and not allowed to do with the opening art for the preliminary thread? Are there any legal restrictions concerning logos or screenshots or whatever? I doubt there are, but just in case, I already have an idea sorted out.



@KeyserCorleone
Take a look at the thread linked below, it contains links to all the past countdowns and all the past preliminary countdown threads. That way you can see how other countdown host did it and maybe get inspired. I know you're skilled with artwork so maybe you'll do you own artwork, I always enjoyed seeing the different ways host presented the movies on the countdown.

https://www.movieforums.com/communit...ad.php?t=63339


This is gonna help a lot. Thanks a bunch!