The 13TH Hall of Fame

#1 I took it that when Maria's long lost husband reappears and surprises her with her American army boyfriend, she then pretends the American was attacking her, and so she hits him with the beer bottle to make it look like she was fighting him off. His death was an accident. Hermann didn't have anything to do with it at all. That's how I interrupted that scene, it was reinforcing the idea that Maria is cold heartened and an opportunist. The fact that the American army guy died shows the consequences of Maria's lack of humanity.

#2 The more I think about it, the ending with the gas from the stove blowing up was the weak part in the film. It felt like a tacked on ending by the writer who didn't know how to end the story so used a 'Deus ex Machina', only in reverse. I have a better ending, for the movie maybe I'll post it. (I still liked the movie, just not the way the script had it end.)

I'll check back tomorrow for replies.

I completely agree with what you say about the ending

As for the death scene, I didn't see it that way while watching the film, but it makes complete sense.

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I remember reading that Fassbinder made sure there'd be no happy endings in his movies so i think it had more to do with that than any difficulty with ending the film. It also did a good job of subverting expectations for me at least since so many similar films would end with the character quietly contemplating the state their life is in now; leaving it open ended to what the future holds. I much prefer the ending we had than that which is where it was heading otherwise. Leaving it open ended would allow for the possibility of future happiness and this crushed any chance of that happening.

The ending is the best part of the movie. It generates plenty of suspense while visually and thematically recalling the explosion at the beginning.

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The following contains spoilers for The Marriage of Maria Braun.
There is a feminist interpretation of the film that credits Maria's independence and initiative to her political and sexual liberation after the war, and how she discards feminine ideals and adopts masculine traits in order to be successful. Looking at the situation from that perspective, Maria's insistence that she's the one having an affair with him is her way of demonstrating that she is in charge, and that the typical male/female roles have been flipped.

I disagree. As I briefly mentioned in my write-up, Maria herself can be seen as a symbol of the Wirtschaftswunder, including the critique that many had at the time that Germany's economic success came at the cost of their humanity. The tragic ending can thus be seen as a warning that the Wirtschaftswunder could actually lead to the death of the German soul if the German people did not re-evaluate their priorities and reconnect with the emotions that were suppressed after the war.

While this is just an interpretation, Fassbinder agreed with the theorists who claimed that the war had emotionally stunted the German people. Fassbinder started his career at the same time he was a major spokesperson for a West German protest group (this was at the height of Berlin's student demonstrations and the birth of the Baader-Meinhof group*). His generation (the one that came after those who produced the Wirtschaftswunder), were adamantly against their parents' refusal to come to terms with Germany's past and their apolitical nature. Many of his films have political overtones, with "keeping German guilt alive" being a major theme. He wanted to inspire his peers and the next generation to become politically active, in order to prevent history from repeating itself.

*-if you're interested in learning more about them, the film that's been next on my list for my German Film Rundown thread deals with this group...if I ever get to rewatching it.

I rather liking the ending we got and it's ambiguity over whether or not the explosion was intentional. Is your ideal ending closer to the original ending Fassbinder had written? Since I'm lazy I'm just going to quote my write-up:

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That's exactly how I took it, a total power play.

Spring, Summer, Fall, Winter... and Spring



I disliked it just as much the second time around which was to be expected. I didn't like the animal torture scenes at all and they were actually quite upsetting this time around for whatever reason. I will say that the film is shot beautifully. That's it's strong point. The performances and the central characters do pretty much nothing for me though. It's a story that tries to send a message but somewhere for me is this big cultural barrier that I can't get past.

I think you guys assumed I meant the ending to Maria Braun should be changed to a happy one, I meant the opposite.

I would have ended the film by skipping the explosion. The end scene would start just after Maria lights her cigarette, but instead of an explosion, a knock would come at the front door. Maria answers the door and an older black woman is standing there.

Maria has a look of slight annoyance on her face as she and her newly reunited husband had plans for the evening.

The black woman speaks and is American. She ask Maria if she knew an Army Sergent named Bill Byrd after the war.

Marie shows little emotion and calmly answers, 'yes, she knew him once...long ago.'

The woman reaches into her handbag, Maria assumes it's to find an old photo of Bill. Instead, the woman pulls out a small pistol and shoots Marie in the chest. Marie falls backwards as the camera pulls back and we see Marie dead in the doorway.

If that had been the original ending, and I then I said: The ending should be that Maria blows herself up while lighting a cigarette because she forgot to turn off the gas...you guys would say I was nuts

My ending shows the wages of Maria's 'sins' more clearly than the way the movie ends and brings a resolution to the death of Bill Byrd.

If that was the ending i would have enjoyed it but i honestly do prefer the one we had only because your ending takes away the surprise; the moment i saw the black woman i would have guessed Bill and you even have her asking about him.

Also this doesn't speak to whether that's a better ending or not but i read a few things earlier that explains why that isn't a good fit for the movie. It's mostly due to the de-humanizing elements that Cosmic mentioned; Bill's portrayal was very deliberate in that his purpose was to be a forgotten victim and nothing more, the thing i read put it better i'll post it when i find it. Anyway it made sense and i think that clashes with Bill getting any sort of closure.

Anyway, good discussion gang.

That's me just now added Nesto's list. It looks nothing like i'd imagine. There's three clear leaders all within a couple of points of each other with 50+ and the closest to those is one on 39. They aren't the three i would have expected though, one of the three i would have expected is in joint 9th actually. All but one film has at least 20 points. As i've said i'll post how the list looked after every new entry at the end so you'll know what i'm talking about.

That's interesting, I liked reading the stats it makes it fun. How many total list are in now?

Four: mine, yours, MV's and Nesto's. Cosmic has finished too so i'm just waiting on hers.

Also my PM's are back on if anyone wants to send me theirs.

There's an odd story about another black man, German Günther Kaufmann, who had a small part in The Marriage of Maria Braun as a soldier on board the train where Maria meets the factory owner. He was involved in a murder case where he confessed to keep his wife out of prison. You can read about it here.

I sent my list almost a week ago, actually. You responded to the message too. If you no longer have it, let me know and I can resend it.

haha. Oh yeah. I didn't add it right away and i must've forgot you sent it. It's fine i have it, adding it now.

Added Cosmics list and it has pretty drastically changed things. The top two are on 66 and 65 points then the next two are on 56 and 55 the next six all are in the 40's and the bottom six all have at least 20 but less than 40.

After i've gotten half of the lists i'll stop giving these updates so the end is more of a surprise, this has shown that one list is enough to heavily change things and if all goes well we are expecting 11 more.

Talking about that i'm messaging Clazor and Neiba now, there's two months left now as the deadline is August 9th and they are way behind.

Messaged them. Clazor has been around so i expect a response from him in the next few days, Neiba hasn't posted in a month though. I do remember the same thing happened in the 11th though: Neiba hadn't posted in ages then i messaged him and not long after he appeared and watched the noms in a short period. Hope they finish as everyone else seems to be on track and it would be awesome to finish a 16 member HOF without dropouts.

Technically Titu dropped out but i made sure that was right away and we replaced him with Blix.

Spring, Summer, Fall, Winter... and Spring - animal torture??? - please guys with all respect who, even noticed that - please Europeans back me up. Thank you!

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I'm pretty sure everybody in this HOF noticed it. It's kind of hard not to.

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Spring, Summer is outstanding i'm with you. Glad it's doing much better in the overall standings than i expected