I had started a reply to the last two posts. I know I said I wasn't bothering with it, but there were a couple of things I'd like to add/answer. Anyway, I'm an idiot (don't all agree so quickly) and lost it all. I'm not going to start it all again now, so I'll just try and hit the main points in broad strokes.
As I also said earlier, I haven't read a most of the posts in this thread (after the posts concerning the original reason for it) but I'm willing to go along with you mark, on your take of what's been said. The only thing I'm not sure about is whether or not he thinks that Christianity changed so as not to be a danger to the world. If he does, then I think he's wrong. Christianity changed because what it said/preached has been constantly disproved over the last 600 years or so and they did their best to stop that being known to the world, too.
I agree that 42nd has appeared to become very involved in this thread to the exclusion of all others. I think that's a shame (as I said, I liked him for what he said elsewhere on the site) and I don't think he came to this site looking to start this up. I think this thread appeared and it's obviously one of his pet peeves/bandwagons/whatever and he's jumped into it with both feet.
While the world may be populated with more people than ever who claim to be non-religious/athiest/secular/whatever, there's still billions more who believe in some God/religion. A quick internet count puts it at something like 5.8bn to 1.1bn and it's not like we're all mixed up together. Interacting, talking and understanding one another, explaining why we think the way we do. It's not as if all the secular people are going to descend on Japan and tell them that Shinto is a load of crap? Are they going to flood the US? Of course not. All that can happen is that the ideas spread and, more often than not, it happens from the top down. It wasn't until the Emperor Constantine converted in the third century that Christianity spread thoughout the Roman Empire and the Roman Gods were usurped by the Christian God.
When you said this, mark:
if there are enough people in enough countries who agree with 42nd, wouldn't they be mobilizing to do something to save their families from what they see as a direct danger to their posterity?
Did you mean "agree" as in non-religous/secular? Or agree as in with the ferocity and fervour of 42nd? People are notoriously difficult to organise in large numbers, especially among civilians (where people are still individuals and question things, as oppossed to an army, say.) If you just meant agree that there's no God or whatever, then that's not the same as actively seeking/demanding a religion to be updated/modernised or whatever.
John, at no point did I say that the eradication of religion would solve all the worlds problems or all of societies ills. That's not the point. The point is, at least, my point is, that if you only believe something's evil/bad/unholy/whatever because of your religion (or more often than not, your parents as they're the ones that usually indoctrinate their children, hence pro-creation being so exhalted and sacred in many religions) then to rid the world/society of that religion would mean they'd be less hatred/pain/violence/whatever. Not none. There'd still be homophobics, there'd still be racists, there'd still be mysogynists and everything, but at least they wouldn't have the 'excuse' of religion and there'd be less people who think they
have to think that way because it's the 'right' way.
I agree that people are ******. Couldn't agree more. We're animals and I mean that in the beastial sense, not a moral one.
Now you can easily argue, and I wouldn't disagree, that religion gives people a reason to embrace their evil side. That, however, does not reflect on the religion itself but the person.
For example, I kill a person because they use a Zune and not an iPod. Apple is not evil. I'm evil.
True, but if Apple told you that you were being righteous if you killed Zune users, then wouldn't you concur that Apple would be evil? If you didn't care if someone used Zune until you started using Apple, wouldn't you only care
because you were an Apple user?
Personally, I don't like to use words like 'evil' seriously. It's a moral evaluation which changes depending on the society or mindset of the person using it. Women are still routinely stoned to death for committing adultery in Nigeria, among other countries. Still sentenced to death in Iran and Somalia (among others) for being raped. Honour killings still occur. We have them here in the UK. None of these things are considered 'evil' by the people that commit them. They're following what they've been taught/told to do by their religious teachers or the laws created based on thos teachings. We, of course, do.
Conversely, in those countries they think we're evil/it's disgusting for allowing women to dress the way they do. To allow homosexuals to live their lives without fear of prosecution or death. To drink alcohol. To not be religious. All manner of things, most of which I probably have no idea about.