Coronavirus

[Citizen Rules]

Begging the question... who is that in your latest avatar, Rules?
It doesn't look like Orson or Dan Duryea (although it could be either or neither).Not really a new avatar, I've had it for awhile. It's Marcello Mastroianni from Fellini's 8 1/2 (1963).

I should tie this into the thread, so I just heard of an interest internet article detailing labor shortages and rioting, are you ready for this?...in Europe after the Black Death during the middle ages. The similarities to events of now were striking.

[doubledenim]

Never forget, in these troubling times, the professional sports leagues showed us the way.

[Stirchley]

Was telling a friend that I felt a little bit under the weather at the weekend & was terrified I have Covid. Come to read The NY Times this evening & they had a long article on many people being worried about this. The least little symptom throws them into a panic. Felt slightly better knowing I’m not the only one worried about this.

Annoying that we got vaxxed & boosted, but Omicron, apparently, can break through. The figures in the UK are staggering & only 3 countries have it worse: USA, India & Brazil.

Anyway, I looked online to see what to do in the event of contracting Covid & there’s not much one can do besides keep away from others for 10 days. I already decided last week to wear a mask again in stores. Not just in church.

Stay healthy everyone!

[Austruck]

Everything I'm seeing about the omicron variant seems to indicate that symptoms are much milder than the previous two incarnations--in many it manifests merely as cold-like symptoms. Also, figures of just having Covid, to me, are different from figures of hospitalizations and/or deaths, which indicate the seriousness of those stats. Those are the numbers I pay more attention to at this stage of things.

We're vaxxed and boosted, and we're choosing to do many things we used to do, but with protocols and common sense in place. I was in Las Vegas at a huge conference in November, followed immediately by a cruise to the Caribbean. All protocols were good ones, I thought, including vaccinations required and Covid tests prior to leaving shore, etc. Plus masks everywhere indoors and the usual hand sanitizer and excessive hand washing. And I had a great time!

It's not where everyone feels safe, I know, but I'm grateful for the options for those of us who feel ready.

[Stirchley]

Everything I'm seeing about the omicron variant seems to indicate that symptoms are much milder than the previous two incarnations--in many it manifests merely as cold-like symptoms. Also, figures of just having Covid, to me, are different from figures of hospitalizations and/or deaths, which indicate the seriousness of those stats. Those are the numbers I pay more attention to at this stage of things.


I don’t disagree with your first sentence at all, but it would still freak me out to have Covid, mild symptoms or otherwise.

The little bit of stats I gave with respect to the worst countries impacted (UK being 4th) came from a humongous chart in The NY Times. Too scary to look at all the figures so I concentrated on the fact that the UK has done & is still doing so very badly. Growing up in England we always thought we were so protected being an island. Very different times now.

I was just reading my OP in this thread. Strange reading it now from March 2020. One day at some far-off future time, dear Yoda will close this thread for lack of content. Won’t that be nice.

[Citizen Rules]

I just got the moderna booster, so far no sore arm and it's suppose to be good against omicron too.

[Flicker]

So, let's dare a daring hypothesis. Catching the Covid and surviving it is like getting one shot of vaccine. The omicron variant is super contagious. If the omicron variant is also super feeble in its effect (to what extent?), doesn't it count like a self-replicating self-spreading vaccine ?

[Citizen Rules]

So, let's dare a daring hypothesis. Catching the Covid and surviving it is like getting one shot of vaccine. The omicron variant is super contagious. If the omicron variant is also super feeble in its effect (to what extent?), doesn't it count like a self-replicating self-spreading vaccine ?
Not for the people who will die from omicron. Maybe for the survivors.

[Flicker]

Not for the people who will die from omicron. Maybe for the survivors.
Hence the if. Do we have stats on this variant's specific dangerosity ?

[Citizen Rules]

Hence the if. Do we have stats on this variant's specific dangerosity ?I've heard that it's somewhat less deadly than the original covid virus.

[Yoda]

So, let's dare a daring hypothesis. Catching the Covid and surviving it is like getting one shot of vaccine. The omicron variant is super contagious. If the omicron variant is also super feeble in its effect (to what extent?), doesn't it count like a self-replicating self-spreading vaccine ?
I've heard this idea floated, yeah; the idea that if you're vaccinated (which seems to all but guarantee your symptoms will be manageable), it might actually be better, in a sense, to get it, since the immunity it provides is stronger.

Immunology is wild stuff, regardless.

[Captain Steel]

I've heard that it's somewhat less deadly than the original covid virus.

Since C-19 is unique, it's difficult to predict exactly how it will behave.

But, following the patterns of other viruses; the subsequent variants (mutations) tend to grow weaker with each new one.

This is what happened with the Spanish Flu - it never just "disappeared" as some historians report, but rather it mutated & weakened, eventually becoming indistinguishable from the various seasonal flus - which themselves can still be deadly for some, but have been manageable for society (something the current administration seems to think - or seems to intend - will never be possible - or allowed to be possible - with C-19).

[Citizen Rules]

Since C-19 is unique, it's difficult to predict exactly how it will behave.

But, following the patterns of other viruses; the subsequent variants (mutations) tend to grow weaker with each new one.

This is what happened with the Spanish Flu - it never just "disappeared" as some historians report, but rather it mutated & weakened, eventually becoming indistinguishable from the various seasonal flus - which themselves can still be deadly for some, but have been manageable for society...Evolution. The more deadlier strains of a virus will quickly kill off the host thus not having the chance to reproduce themselves in the population. While the less deadlier strains can spread further because the host isn't killed, but acts like a viral dispersal agent. Eventually the deadliest strains become rare while the mild strains become common.

[Flicker]

I've heard this idea floated, yeah; the idea that if you're vaccinated (which seems to all but guarantee your symptoms will be manageable), it might actually be better, in a sense, to get it, since the immunity it provides is stronger.

Immunology is wild stuff, regardless.

I know there's been at least one (at least one!!!!!) optimistic scientist arguing that pandemics tend to die out with the apparition of fast-spreading but less dangerous strains [I mean, explicitly considering the omicron as an encouraging sign of this evolution]. But I don't follow covid news very closely, so I don't know if this counts as the one scientist saying that climate change is a hoax and that water molecules memorize everything they see. Especially given the political stakes of omicron (with South African doctors arguing that the north was overreacting). Discourses are too muddled by the usual imbecile biases - political identity, nationalism, money, etc.

Still, the best chance for this pandemic to end, given the population's unwillingness to use the tools of epidemiology and virology, would clearly be the spread of an innocuous virus, carrying antigens sufficiently similar to the rest of this coronavirus' variants. If omicron doesn't turn out to be it, let's (paradoxically) hope for a mutation that would.

Even though we know that even the common flu, which isn't generally considered alarming, induces its own share of deaths. And that no natural version of a virus would be truly harmless.

[John McClane]

I hope everyone is double masking or sporting N95s this holiday season. I still gotta get my booster shot but I’ll have to wait till Monday.

[Citizen Rules]

I just got the moderna booster, so far no sore arm and it's suppose to be good against omicron too....and that booster shot wiped me out! I was fine for 24 hours then I felt crummy, the day after that I was better, but today I still feel woozy and chilled.

Still, I don't regret getting the booster as it's better than catching Omicron without any protection.

[Flicker]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/dec/26/omicron-bleak-new-year-or-beginning-of-the-end-for-the-pandemic

Is the virus likely to lose its power to cause severe illness?
Many scientists believe evidence is now suggesting that this idea may be correct. Recent studies in Scotland, England and South Africa all point in this direction. “My gut feeling is that this variant is the first step in a process by which the virus adapts to the human population to produce more benign symptoms,” says Dr Julian Tang, Professor of Respiratory Sciences at Leicester University. “In a sense, it is to the virus’s advantage if it affects people in a way that that they don’t get too sick – because then they can walk around and mingle in society and spread the virus even more.”

So will Covid-19 end up behaving like flu?
Some health officials have predicted that Covid-19 could end up behaving like influenza, which requires a new vaccine to deal with new strains that appear every year. However, Professor Martin Hibberd, of the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine, argues that coronaviruses – like those that already cause common colds – do not behave this way: “They do not appear as new strains every year. The reason we get colds in winter is because our immunity to coronaviruses does not last very long. And this virus seems to be more similar to those that cause common colds. In other words, we may still need to think about giving vaccines to protect against Covid-19 every year because immunity will always slip.”

That does not mean we face “doom and gloom” for the next five years, adds Tang. “I think the virus will evolve itself out of the pandemic strain very soon and become milder, more transmissible to the point where you may only need to think about vaccinating the more vulnerable members of the population.”

[CringeFest]

I hope everyone is double masking or sporting N95s this holiday season. I still gotta get my booster shot but I’ll have to wait till Monday.


This may not make you feel any better, but stress compromises the immune system, and there are still more things to worry about than both omicron and diseases in general...

[Yoda]

Many scientists believe evidence is now suggesting that this idea may be correct.
I really hate this sentence.

[Stirchley]

Two pieces of annoying Covid news today:

The largest Walgreens in my city doesn’t have a single mask of any kind to buy. What is this? March of 2020?

Stopped by Subway after church as I do every Sunday. Nobody there. (It’s inside a Mobil station.) Talked to the franchise owner just now: it was closed because they all had Covid, including the very nice young woman who always serves me. Turns out they’re all unvaccinated & they all infected each other. :mad:

Franchise owner seemed very unfazed by this, but I was alarmed because I haven’t worn a mask in there. Next Sunday (and maybe for the next few weeks) I’m going to the Subway at the railroad station.

[John McClane]

Got boosted this morning at 10am. I am starting to feel the effects now. Can’t get warm and I’m sore all over. At least I know it’s working. J&J, baby!

[Stirchley]

Got boosted this morning at 10am. I am starting to feel the effects now. Can’t get warm and I’m sore all over. At least I know it’s working. J&J, baby!

The only “reaction” (and I use that term lightly) was to the booster. Not even worth mentioning.

Glad you’re fully boosted. Horrifying that so many hospitals’ Covid patients are unvaccinated. In some hospitals that’s all the Covid patients. Never did I think our country would be so divided over this.

[Citizen Rules]

The only “reaction” (and I use that term lightly) was to the booster. Not even worth mentioning.

Glad you’re fully boosted. Horrifying that so many hospitals’ Covid patients are unvaccinated. In some hospitals that’s all the Covid patients. Never did I think our country would be so divided over this.I felt crummy for almost a week from the booster. Unless I caught a cold at the same time and just don't know it.

[doubledenim]

Naw. They’re just using the dregs from the initial batches of vaccines for the boosters. Stuff’s expired, but that’s just a date they put on stuff…

[Miss Vicky]

Just found out a couple of days ago that my best friend's dad and 90-something-year-old grandma have Covid. My friend lives with her parents, her grandmother, and her youngest brother. Her other brother has been visiting for the holidays. The whole family got the initial two vaccines and everyone but her dad has gotten the booster. Her dad refuses to get the booster. He's also been going around maskless when shopping despite state mandates requiring masks indoors. My friend's grandma and youngest brother both have heart problems and her mom has a laundry list of health problems and is currently recovering from a stroke. My friend is overweight, but otherwise healthy. Her dad used to be obese, but over the last year has been dieting and has drastically slimmed down. He has no other health issues to my knowledge.

My friend and the visiting brother have not had any symptoms, but have not been tested. Her mom and youngest brother both tested negative. Her grandma has had only mild symptoms. Her dad has been pretty sick, though thankfully not severe enough to require hospitalization. And despite how well everyone else has been, her dad is still anti-booster and she said that just yesterday he was telling one of their other relatives not to get the booster.

So frustrating. I spent some time with them on Christmas eve and was hoping to see them again while her brother was still visiting, but now I won't be going anywhere near that house or that family for awhile.

Please get vaccinated, people. And wear your mask in public. And if you're vaccinated but haven't had your booster, get your booster.

[cricket]

Have my booster scheduled for Monday afternoon, and my wife had me add flu and pneumonia. I'm a little nervous because I don't remember ever getting those before and it seems like a lot. Will I be able to work Tuesday or should I just schedule a sick day? For those who don't know I drive a truck and do physical work.

Edit: it's the following Monday

[Takoma11]

Have my booster scheduled for Monday afternoon, and my wife had me add flu and pneumonia. I'm a little nervous because I don't remember ever getting those before and it seems like a lot. Will I be able to work Tuesday or should I just schedule a sick day? For those who don't know I drive a truck and do physical work.

Edit: it's the following Monday

I got my COVID booster shot and my flu shot on the same day, and I had zero side effects aside from a sore arm on the side with the COVID jab.

But I should also say that I didn't really have many side effects from any of the COVID shots and I almost never have side effects from the flu shot. If you had bad effects from the second COVID shot, that seems to be a decent predictor of how the booster will go (based on anecdotal evidence from friends/family).

[cricket]

I got my COVID booster shot and my flu shot on the same day, and I had zero side effects aside from a sore arm on the side with the COVID jab.

But I should also say that I didn't really have many side effects from any of the COVID shots and I almost never have side effects from the flu shot. If you had bad effects from the second COVID shot, that seems to be a decent predictor of how the booster will go (based on anecdotal evidence from friends/family).

I had neck pain for the first shot but they told me it was probably given a little high. For the second shot I was a little weary the next day but pretty much OK.

[Yoda]

Yeah, I think it depends on what taking a day off looks like for you. If you've got extras and it won't set you back, probably smart to do it preemptively.

Anecdotally, my wife and I both felt kinda "bleh" but weren't miserable (we got Moderna the first time). I've heard that one's generally the worst in a vacuum, even though individual reactions vary a lot.

We both got boosters (Pfizer) earlier today, so I guess I'll report back on that shortly.

[cricket]

Yeah, I think it depends on what taking a day off looks like for you. If you've got extras and it won't set you back, probably smart to do it preemptively.

Anecdotally, my wife and I both felt kinda "bleh" but weren't miserable (we got Moderna the first time). I've heard that one's generally the worst in a vacuum, even though individual reactions vary a lot.

We both got boosters (Pfizer) earlier today, so I guess I'll report back on that shortly.

Taking a day off for me is nothing, it's just not something I normally do. Looking forward to your report.

[Austruck]

Yeah, I think it depends on what taking a day off looks like for you. If you've got extras and it won't set you back, probably smart to do it preemptively.

Anecdotally, my wife and I both felt kinda "bleh" but weren't miserable (we got Moderna the first time). I've heard that one's generally the worst in a vacuum, even though individual reactions vary a lot.

We both got boosters (Pfizer) earlier today, so I guess I'll report back on that shortly.

Aren't they saying you shouldn't mix vaccines? Or did you guys switch from Moderna and get both Pfizer shots? We ended up with two Pfizer shots then a Pfizer booster six months later.

And neither of us had any real side effects from any, which was nice. I just felt a little unproductive on the day after the shot.

[doubledenim]

I signed up through the CVS website and, at the time, it was worded that you had to match the booster to the original shots. Then talking to the pharmacist that administered the shot, they said that you could mix n’ match. I’m guessing the website wasn’t up to speed with the current policy.

cricket

I was wasted after the booster, after having no problems with the first two shots. Night sweats and fever. Glad I did it at the start of a 3-day weekend, I wouldn’t have wanted to deal with anybody in that state.

[Yoda]

Aren't they saying you shouldn't mix vaccines? Or did you guys switch from Moderna and get both Pfizer shots? We ended up with two Pfizer shots then a Pfizer booster six months later.

And neither of us had any real side effects from any, which was nice. I just felt a little unproductive on the day after the shot.
I read the opposite, that mixing is supposed to be good. Either way I'm sure I read it was at least okay. Guy who administered it was aware.

[Captain Steel]

I read the opposite, that mixing is supposed to be good. Either way I'm sure I read it was at least okay. Guy who administered it was aware.

Initially I heard you should get both (first & second) shots with the same vaccine, but later heard that getting the booster from a different company than you got your vaccine shots from could be good: (provide greater coverage).

As far as officially, I am not sure.

[Miss Vicky]

I don't know if there is an official consensus on whether it's better to get a different booster than your initial series or if it doesn't matter. The only thing definite I've heard is that those who got J&J should get a booster with Moderna or Pfizer.

Anecdotally, my best friend had Pfizer for all three shots and has not been sick despite living with two infected people. Her brother with the heart problems got Pfizer for the initial two and then a Moderna booster and he hasn't gotten sick either.

[Yoda]

Initially I heard you should get both (first & second) shots with the same vaccine, but later heard that getting the booster from a different company than you got your vaccine shots from could be good: (provide greater coverage).
This is exactly what I heard, too.

[Yoda]

Next day, feel kinda bleh but not awful. Just like last time the arm started hurting (kind of suddenly, even) a few hours after.

Felt a little warm/fuzzy later on. Woke up with a headache and a little dehydrated. I guess I feel a little weaker/more tired than usual, but that's about it. It's either better than the initial vaccine was, or at least no worse, so far, about 24 hours later.

[Austruck]

I read the opposite, that mixing is supposed to be good. Either way I'm sure I read it was at least okay. Guy who administered it was aware.

Clearly I can't keep up with the changing recommendations! :D

[John McClane]

J&J both times. The media has done that vaccine dirty because it is far more efficient than everyone is making it out to be, and the risks far less dangerous than reported. In fact, a study out of South Africa showed it was the most effective vaccine against Delta. That was enough evidence for me.

[Sedai]

I am still on my first dose of J & J. I need to get out and get boosted soon...

[Chypmunk]

We both had headaches after our boosters but tbh for me that could well have been down to the Godawful radio station that was playing in reception where we had to while away one ninety-sixth of a day before being let out.

[kgaard]

Me right now:
84191

[CringeFest]

J&J both times. The media has done that vaccine dirty because it is far more efficient than everyone is making it out to be, and the risks far less dangerous than reported. In fact, a study out of South Africa showed it was the most effective vaccine against Delta. That was enough evidence for me.


Yeah people were freaking out about 6 people who died a period after they got it, and the reasons they died were unknown. I understand "safe better than sorry" yet there are risks worth taking since were all gonna die anyway.

[Takoma11]

Me right now:
84191

Seriously.

ME: Please put your mask up.
STUDENT: Ok.
STUDENT: *puts mask up*
STUDENT: *puts finger under mask*
STUDENT: *wipes booger on my classroom carpet, two feet from where I'm sitting*

I am kind of resigned to getting it at this point, like many people, and just hoping the vaccine does its job in taking the edge off AND that I catch it without exposing my parents/family.

My local hospital released numbers in an e-mail last week, 82% of people hospitalized with it are unvaccinated, 90% of patients with it in the ICU are unvaccinated, and 90% of the people with it on ventilators are unvaccinated.

Also, our school nurse is a borderline COVID denier, and she told me that she thinks that "something in the vaccine" is what is making so many people test positive. When I asked what she thought about the rise in people in the hospital/ICU/on ventilators she was like "Well, yeah, but . . . " and then didn't finish her sentence. BUT WHAT?! BUT WHAT?!

[gbgoodies]

Have my booster scheduled for Monday afternoon, and my wife had me add flu and pneumonia. I'm a little nervous because I don't remember ever getting those before and it seems like a lot. Will I be able to work Tuesday or should I just schedule a sick day? For those who don't know I drive a truck and do physical work.

Edit: it's the following Monday


I've heard that drinking a lot of water in the 12 to 24 hours before getting the vaccine helps lessen the side effects. It worked for me. I drank about four or five 16 oz. bottles of water the day before and the day of my shots, (Moderna), and I had almost no side effects at all.

[John McClane]

When I asked what she thought about the rise in people in the hospital/ICU/on ventilators she was like "Well, yeah, but . . . " and then didn't finish her sentence. BUT WHAT?! BUT WHAT?!
"Well, yeah, but I’m an idiot."

That’s just an educated guess.

Stay safe!

[Yoda]

Weird/surprising update:

I think I feel a bit worse the second day after. This is not at all what happened the last time, so yesterday I figured "oh, that's the worst of it, cool." Not so, I guess.

That said, it's hard to divorce my baseline reaction from secondary effects from things like dehydration. Big second to gbgoodies talking about drinking lots of water (some Gatorade wouldn't be terrible either), both preemptively and afterwards. I did that the first time, and even a little this time, and I still think I didn't do enough. The response has lessened as I've made a point to drink things. Seems worst in the morning/middle of the night when I can't.

[Takoma11]

My sister's school district sent them all an e-mail being like "Hey, so we are going to test representative samples from every school. If a school has more than 5% positivity, that school will go virtual".

So they tested about 100 kids from each school.

Then they posted the results.

Every school was over 5%, with my sister's school being at 7.5%.

Then the county sent an e-mail being like "So remember how we said we'd go virtual if you were over 5%? Yeah, we are . . . . just not going to do that. See you Monday!".

LOL.

[Captain Terror]

My co-worker is going on a cruise next week. He explained to us that he must test negative in order to board. But because he's vaccinated he doesn't have to get tested when he returns. And he's the guy that, when he wears a mask, it's on his chin.
So the ship returns Thursday, he'll be at work Friday. People are just making great decisions left and right.

ps--- he has a chronic cough, year round. So if he is sick none of us will know the difference. Wheeeeeeeee!

[cricket]

My co-worker is going on a cruise next week. He explained to us that he must test negative in order to board. But because he's vaccinated he doesn't have to get tested when he returns. And he's the guy that, when he wears a mask, it's on his chin.
So the ship returns Thursday, he'll be at work Friday. People are just making great decisions left and right.

ps--- he has a chronic cough, year round. So if he is sick none of us will know the difference. Wheeeeeeeee!

But you could be vaccinated, be sick, and not know it. This guy is at least vaccinated. Do you want people to stop living their lives?

[Captain Terror]

Do you want people to stop living their lives?

No, I want him to postpone his cruise until the infection rate isn't literally at its highest point.
And I don't want to share an office with him the day after he's been in close quarters with thousands of people who definitely didn't lie about their test results in order to get on the ship.

[Austruck]

My co-worker is going on a cruise next week. He explained to us that he must test negative in order to board. But because he's vaccinated he doesn't have to get tested when he returns. And he's the guy that, when he wears a mask, it's on his chin.
So the ship returns Thursday, he'll be at work Friday. People are just making great decisions left and right.

ps--- he has a chronic cough, year round. So if he is sick none of us will know the difference. Wheeeeeeeee!
We were on a cruise in November. In fact, I'd been at a 1,500-person conference in Las Vegas the week before the cruise. I had to get my negative Covid test in Vegas two days before boarding the ship and also show proof of vaccination. And mask up anywhere on the ship indoors. Frankly, that's better coverage around strangers than you'd get at the local grocery store or anywhere else. I knew everyone else on that ship was vaccinated and had just tested negative.

If your coworker has other issues with irresponsibility, I'm not sure I'd lay those at the feet of the ship's protocols. Those seemed really solid and responsible to us in November.

[cricket]

No, I want him to postpone his cruise until the infection rate isn't literally at its highest point.
And I don't want to share an office with him the day after he's been in close quarters with thousands of people who definitely didn't lie about their test results in order to get on the ship.

Just accept that it doesn't matter what you want and then do what's best for you. Otherwise it's just extra stress.

[Austruck]

No, I want him to postpone his cruise until the infection rate isn't literally at its highest point.
And I don't want to share an office with him the day after he's been in close quarters with thousands of people who definitely didn't lie about their test results in order to get on the ship.
They don't just *ask* you about these things. We had to show proof of both our vaccinations (originals, not photocopies) AND our negative Covid tests with proper dates, matching our names. It's not on the honor system.

[Captain Terror]

We were on a cruise in November.
Right, my issue is with his timing. In November my super-high-risk mom had a Thanksgiving party. November and now are two different stories.

[Takoma11]

If your coworker has other issues with irresponsibility, I'm not sure I'd lay those at the feet of the ship's protocols. Those seemed really solid and responsible to us in November.

He's not complaining about the boat, though, he's complaining about the co-worker going into a situation potentially around a lot of people and then having to share an office with him. There are also several (92) active outbreaks on cruise ships right now.

I'm not mad, per se, that a bunch of my students had sprawling holiday and new year's parties, but I am annoyed that I have to be in a room with them in the days/week after. (And, yes, I do currently have several out with COVID).

Also: https://news.yahoo.com/dozen-passengers-cruise-ship-test-205443231.html

All aboard were required to be vaccinated and show proof of a negative test before embarking on the cruise, according to port officials.

[cricket]

He's not complaining about the boat, though, he's complaining about the co-worker going into a situation potentially around a lot of people and then having to share an office with him. There are also several (92) active outbreaks on cruise ships right now.

I'm not mad, per se, that a bunch of my students had sprawling holiday and new year's parties, but I am annoyed that I have to be in a room with them in the days/week after. (And, yes, I do currently have several out with COVID).

Also: https://news.yahoo.com/dozen-passengers-cruise-ship-test-205443231.html

There's covid at my work, there's covid at my wife's work, and there's covid at our apartment building. There's covid at places we go where we don't know there's covid. At this point I just assume that it's everywhere and everybody has it. What can we do besides protect ourselves as much as it takes to make ourselves as comfortable as possible? The shelf life of worrying about what other people do only lasts until we realize that it's a waste of time.

[Captain Terror]

He's not complaining about the boat, though, he's complaining about the co-worker going into a situation potentially around a lot of people and then having to share an office with him. There are also several (92) active outbreaks on cruise ships right now.

I'm not mad, per se, that a bunch of my students had sprawling holiday and new year's parties, but I am annoyed that I have to be in a room with them in the days/week after. (And, yes, I do currently have several out with COVID).

Also: https://news.yahoo.com/dozen-passengers-cruise-ship-test-205443231.html
Right, and even if everyone on the ship is negative, he's going to disembark in Mexico at one point. The fact that he can just show up at work the next day without being tested doesn't seem fair to those of us who don't want covid.


I should point out that he takes three cruises per year. So postponing/skipping one would not be a great hardship.

[cricket]

Right, and even if everyone on the ship is negative, he's going to disembark in Mexico at one point. The fact that he can just show up at work the next day without being tested doesn't seem fair to those of us who don't want covid.


I should point out that he takes three cruises per year. So postponing/skipping one would not be a great hardship.

I assume you don't get tested before reporting to work. People go to stores, sporting events, etc. I understand that there's a lot of people on the ship but nevermind the odds because nobody will agree on exactly which odds they are comfortable with. It only takes one.

[Captain Steel]

A disturbing story came out that the U.S. Supreme Court (while trying to decide about Biden's proposed vaccine mandates for the private sector) disseminated multiple complete falsehoods about the virus that are currently known to be untrue even by the majority of the public.

1. Omicron variant is "just as deadly" as Delta variant. False (Omicron is more contagious, but far less severe with its symptoms being compared to the common cold).

2. Vaccine is the best way to prevent spread & transmission - thus mandates are completely understandable and warranted. False (vaccines have now been shown to have little to no effect on transmission, neither do they provide immunity from contracting the illness - they have been shown to be only effective on the severity of the illness).

3. "More than 100,000 children have been hospitalized by COVID-19, with many on ventilators." Completely False. (No one even knows where judge Sotomayor came up with this claim or these numbers: children have been the least effected by the virus directly with less than a few thousand currently hospitalized throughout the entire nation - with the vast majority of those not hospitalized FROM Covid, but who only happened to test positive for Covid as they are hospitalized for OTHER reasons. Even Dr. Fauci has confirmed these facts multiple times.) ​

There were more fallacies, but I have to agree with those who said that you'd think Supreme Court Justices would be better informed on the facts about a virus that is the subject they were about to rule on, at least to the point where they'd avoid repeating things that were already shown and known to be false some time ago especially when they are utilizing that very misinformation they stated as a basis for their decisions.

[Austruck]

I assume you don't get tested before reporting to work. People go to stores, sporting events, etc. I understand that there's a lot of people on the ship but nevermind the odds because nobody will agree on exactly which odds they are comfortable with. It only takes one.

This was partly my point too: On that cruise ship I guarantee you that I was safer than if I was walking around a grocery store or sitting on a city bus. I have *no* idea what those people on the bus or in the grocery store think about vaccines or exposure. Even if a few folks fudged their way onto a cruise ship, statistically I'm pretty sure there are way more people who've been vaxxed and tested and even masked up than in my local grocery store or post office or bank. There are sports bars around here that are *right now* crowded with people drinking, interacting, not masked--and nobody there knows who's been vaxxed or tested, or when.

And yet they'll all go to work on Monday morning without having to tell anybody where they've been. That's just life. The best you can do sometimes is to mask up yourself and ask people to steer clear if you're uncomfortable. I mask up when asked to and sometimes when I'm not required to. Depends on the situation and my ability to socially distance myself properly.

[gbgoodies]

Weird/surprising update:

I think I feel a bit worse the second day after. This is not at all what happened the last time, so yesterday I figured "oh, that's the worst of it, cool." Not so, I guess.

That said, it's hard to divorce my baseline reaction from secondary effects from things like dehydration. Big second to gbgoodies talking about drinking lots of water (some Gatorade wouldn't be terrible either), both preemptively and afterwards. I did that the first time, and even a little this time, and I still think I didn't do enough. The response has lessened as I've made a point to drink things. Seems worst in the morning/middle of the night when I can't.


Yoda, I hope you're feeling better today, and the side effects weren't too bad.

Hubby and I are scheduled to get our boosters on Tuesday. I've already started drinking more water than usual so hopefully by Monday and Tuesday I'll be ready to drink so much water that I won't have any side effects. :skeptical:

Hubby's cousin got his booster last week, and he said that he felt sick for three days after it.

But as bad as the side effects are, I doubt they're as bad as actually getting Covid.

[Stirchley]

But you could be vaccinated, be sick, and not know it. This guy is at least vaccinated. Do you want people to stop living their lives?

I don’t think he wants people to stop living their lives. But he does want people to stop risking the lives of others.

[Citizen Rules]

...Hubby and I are scheduled to get our boosters on Tuesday. I've already started drinking more water than usual so hopefully by Monday and Tuesday I'll be ready to drink so much water that I won't have any side effects. :skeptical:

Hubby's cousin got his booster last week, and he said that he felt sick for three days after it.

But as bad as the side effects are, I doubt they're as bad as actually getting Covid.I hadn't heard that about drinking water before getting the booster shot. I was wiped out for a week, next time I'm drinking water! Lots of water...

[cricket]

I don’t think he wants people to stop living their lives. But he does want people to stop risking the lives of others.

He wants a person who's vaccinated not to go on vacation.

[Captain Terror]

He wants a person who's vaccinated not to go on vacation.

I want him to be tested before he comes back to work with his mask on his chin and breathes on me.

[cricket]

I want him to be tested before he comes back to work with his mask on his chin and breathes on me.

Nothing personal, but nobody is going to concern themselves with what you want, nor should they. I don't wear a mask in places I don't have to because I'm vaccinated. I'm sure some people would want me to, but should I care? Some people probably want you to wear two masks, but should you care? The guy is vaccinated, cut him some slack. If you're so worried about yourself, do what you can to protect yourself. Enough with judging others and trying to get them to comply with our wants already. The guy is vaccinated. If he's breaking a law you are free to call the police.

[Captain Terror]

nobody is going to concern themselves with what you want

That's become abundantly clear in the past two years.

[cricket]

That's become abundantly clear in the past two years.

Well my guess is that in the beginning you wanted this guy to wear a mask. Then you probably wanted him to get vaccinated. Then you probably wanted him to be vaccinated and wear a mask. Now you don't want him to go on a cruise. What I really want to know is, what will you want next?

[Citizen Rules]

Am I right in thinking that the Omicron strain of Covid is not that dangerous to a healthy individual who's been vaccinated and had the booster? I do understand people being concerned, I'm concerned...but I think the threat to someone who's healthy and up on their shots is more in line with catching a bad case of flu. And I do think Omicron has spread so quickly and so widely, that eventually everyone will get it, in the same way everyone ends up catching the flu at one time or another.

In other words be safe, be vaccinated but don't over worry as there's lots of bad things in the world besides Omicron. I hope this comes across as being positive because that's what I'm trying to relay.

[Takoma11]

Well my guess is that in the beginning you wanted this guy to wear a mask. Then you probably wanted him to get vaccinated. Then you probably wanted him to be vaccinated and wear a mask. Now you don't want him to go on a cruise. What I really want to know is, what will you want next?

"First you wanted him to wear pants to work. Then you wanted him to wash his hands after pooping and before touching the communal water fountain. Then you probably wanted him to be wearing pants AND washing his hands after pooping. Now you want him washing his hands after his favorite activity---picking up pennies from the sidewalk?! My god man, what will you want next?!"

Basic hygiene practices in a communal space are not some huge ask. The fact that a lot of people are disregarding the health/wellness of others just because they miss being in a packed bar or seeing a baseball game in person doesn't make bad behavior more okay. It's just a crappy commentary on how "me first" so many people are.

Especially right now with hospitals being overwhelmed with cases, taking any above-average risk is incredibly selfish.

[cricket]

"First you wanted him to wear pants to work. Then you wanted him to wash his hands after pooping and before touching the communal water fountain. Then you probably wanted him to be wearing pants AND washing his hands after pooping. Now you want him washing his hands after his favorite activity---picking up pennies from the sidewalk?! My god man, what will you want next?!"

Basic hygiene practices in a communal space are not some huge ask. The fact that a lot of people are disregarding the health/wellness of others just because they miss being in a packed bar or seeing a baseball game in person doesn't make bad behavior more okay. It's just a crappy commentary on how "me first" so many people are.

Especially right now with hospitals being overwhelmed with cases, taking any above-average risk is incredibly selfish.

A vaccinated person doesn't want another vaccinated person to go on a cruise. If you wanted to, I suppose you could argue that either one is selfish. Is it OK if he goes to the mall? How about the grocery store? Family dinner? I want to know where it ends.

[Captain Terror]

What I really want to know is, what will you want next?

He listens to s----ty music really loud in his office, so if he could use headphones that would be great.

[cricket]

He listens to s----ty music really loud in his office, so if he could use headphones that would be great.

Well that I can understand!

[crumbsroom]

Ive been double vaxxed. I just got my booster. But it hasn't occured to me to stop wearing my mask in public or stop doing my best to socially distance. Not because I have concerns for my own health. I barely worried about that before I was even vaxxed. But because I see it as the least I could do to limit the spread, and not overtax the health sector. Possibly important things to consider as being vaccinated does not limit infection or spread.


Now, do I think life still has to go on? Yes. Are some people overly concerned about the threat this poses to them personally. Sure. But call me crazy, things like wearing a mask, or occassioally getting tested,.have almost seemed like an insignificant burden for me to take on. And I'm a person who is generally annoyed by everything


Maybe I'm just becoming a real tough and manly dude in my middle age. About time!

[Takoma11]

A vaccinated person doesn't want another vaccinated person to go on a cruise. If you wanted to, I suppose you could argue that either one is selfish. Is it OK if he goes to the mall? How about the grocery store? Family dinner? I want to know where it ends.

Obviously the tricky part about "where it ends" is that everyone is coming up with their own standard for what being a responsible person is right now.

My personal opinion, listening as I am to the stress and trauma of my friends who work in the medical sphere (a surgeon in a small rural hospital, an EMT in NOLA, an ER doctor in a mid-sized town), is that in the midst of a surge, people should be doing what they can to minimize risk of infecting themselves and others.

I think that people are well within their rights to grouse a bit. I've been eating alone in my classroom for the last two years. I finally ventured back into the staff lounge because I have felt very isolated and lonely at work. Today AFTER we'd all eaten, one of my co-workers said that several girls he coaches probably have COVID and are getting tested today because they are symptomatic. "So I guess I'm a close contact, but what was I supposed to do, stay home?" *shrug* He is not vaccinated. And I'm annoyed!

Captain Terror is allowed to be annoyed. It's not like he's reporting his coworker to HR or something.

[cricket]

Ive been double vaxxed. I just got my booster. But it hasn't occured to me to stop wearing my mask in public or stop doing my best to socially distance. Not because I have concerns for my own health. I barely worried about that before I was even vaxxed. But because I see it as the least I could do to limit the spread, and not overtax the health sector. Possibly important things to consider as being vaccinated does not limit infection or spread.


Now, do I think life still has to go on? Yes. Are some people overly concerned about the threat this poses to them personally. Sure. But call me crazy, things like wearing a mask, or occassioally getting tested,.have almost seemed like an insignificant burden for me to take on. And I'm a person who is generally annoyed by everything


Maybe I'm just becoming a real tough and manly dude in my middle age. About time!

I suspect that some people are getting tested just for the sake of getting tested and that can't be helping things. Something I mentioned here before, my wife was side by side and face to face with people who later tested positive, and she wasn't advised to get tested. No symptoms? Well then business as usual. I think a lot of people are just resigned to the fact that there's nothing we can do to stop the spread, and the numbers seem to support that. Just get vaccinated and get the booster to protect yourself. Of course, I'm not advising anybody to take any extra precautions that makes them comfortable.

[Takoma11]

He listens to s----ty music really loud in his office, so if he could use headphones that would be great.

Okay I've changed my mind. Please contact HR so that this sociopath is removed from your office ASAP!

[cricket]

Obviously the tricky part about "where it ends" is that everyone is coming up with their own standard for what being a responsible person is right now.

My personal opinion, listening as I am to the stress and trauma of my friends who work in the medical sphere (a surgeon in a small rural hospital, an EMT in NOLA, an ER doctor in a mid-sized town), is that in the midst of a surge, people should be doing what they can to minimize risk of infecting themselves and others.

I think that people are well within their rights to grouse a bit. I've been eating alone in my classroom for the last two years. I finally ventured back into the staff lounge because I have felt very isolated and lonely at work. Today AFTER we'd all eaten, one of my co-workers said that several girls he coaches probably have COVID and are getting tested today because they are symptomatic. "So I guess I'm a close contact, but what was I supposed to do, stay home?" *shrug* He is not vaccinated. And I'm annoyed!

Captain Terror is allowed to be annoyed. It's not like he's reporting his coworker to HR or something.

I understand, and my intent is not to put Captain Terror down.

[Takoma11]

there's nothing we can do to stop the spread, and the numbers seem to support that.

But there ARE things we can do to stop the spread! Or at least slow it. Proper masking and distancing, for a start. Like, in theory everyone in my school is masked, but the reality is that both students and staff are not masking properly and frequently couple poor masking with standing too close. People who are supposed to be in quarantine (either because they are actually sick or are close contacts) openly and shamelessly do things like go to the store or the gym.

Also: https://abc17news.com/news/missouri/2021/12/02/masks-mandates-led-to-fewer-cases-of-delta-variant-missouri-health-department-study-finds/

Just get vaccinated and get the booster to protect yourself.

Being vaccinated/boosted is a big deal because less severe cases mean fewer beds being taken up in the hospital. But since you can still catch/spread when vaccinated, reducing other peoples' exposure to you is just as much of a moral issue, from my point of view.

Anyway, I think we can all emphasize with the feeling that someone we are forced to share space with (family, co-worker, etc) is being inconsiderate. Even moreso when you're trying to keep your own loved ones safe and that other person is making that harder.

[cricket]

But there ARE things we can do to stop the spread! Or at least slow it. Proper masking and distancing, for a start. Like, in theory everyone in my school is masked, but the reality is that both students and staff are not masking properly and frequently couple poor masking with standing too close. People who are supposed to be in quarantine (either because they are actually sick or are close contacts) openly and shamelessly do things like go to the store or the gym.

Also: https://abc17news.com/news/missouri/2021/12/02/masks-mandates-led-to-fewer-cases-of-delta-variant-missouri-health-department-study-finds/



Being vaccinated/boosted is a big deal because less severe cases mean fewer beds being taken up in the hospital. But since you can still catch/spread when vaccinated, reducing other peoples' exposure to you is just as much of a moral issue, from my point of view.

Anyway, I think we can all emphasize with the feeling that someone we are forced to share space with (family, co-worker, etc) is being inconsiderate. Even moreso when you're trying to keep your own loved ones safe and that other person is making that harder.

We are hitting record numbers even with everything that's been done so I see no evidence that anything is stopping the spread. As far as that link, it's an analysis of counties in Jefferson City, and said analysis is termed "misleading" and "taken out of context". That's not reassuring at all.

[Takoma11]

We are hitting record numbers even with everything that's been done so I see no evidence that anything is stopping the spread. As far as that link, it's an analysis of counties in Jefferson City, and said analysis is termed "misleading" and "taken out of context". That's not reassuring at all.

People doing preventative measures correctly would do a lot. There are protocols in place and a lot of people are simply disregarding them. This is just generally true. Part of the reason that we see surges of strep and other junk in our school is that parents don't want to stay home with their child, give them Tylenol to suppress a fever, and then conveniently don't answer the phone when the nurse calls them.

Also, the people saying the study is "misleading" and "taken out of context" are politicians who are just salty because they were hoping the study would show mask mandates weren't effective, the study seems to show that they are effective (I think the graph speaks for itself, frankly), and so they decided to hide the study until someone asked to see it under a FOIA request. This is the same governor who, when someone pointed out that their government websites were exposing the social security numbers of employees, threatened to prosecute that person for "hacking".

[cricket]

People doing preventative measures correctly would do a lot. There are protocols in place and a lot of people are simply disregarding them. This is just generally true. Part of the reason that we see surges of strep and other junk in our school is that parents don't want to stay home with their child, give them Tylenol to suppress a fever, and then conveniently don't answer the phone when the nurse calls them.

Also, the people saying the study is "misleading" and "taken out of context" are politicians who are just salty because they were hoping the study would show mask mandates weren't effective, the study seems to show that they are effective (I think the graph speaks for itself, frankly), and so they decided to hide the study until someone asked to see it under a FOIA request. This is the same governor who, when someone pointed out that their government websites were exposing the social security numbers of employees, threatened to prosecute that person for "hacking".

I don't know about the political stuff but you posted a link about counties in Jefferson City, which wouldn't tell me much even if there wasn't contradiction in the article. Saying using preventive measures correctly would do a lot, I ask what's a lot? I don't think we know Jack and that some of what we're doing might not be as important as some of us think it is.

[Captain Steel]

I don't know about the political stuff but you posted a link about counties in Jefferson City, which wouldn't tell me much even if there wasn't contradiction in the article. Saying using preventive measures correctly would do a lot, I ask what's a lot? I don't think we know Jack and that some of what we're doing might not be as important as some of us think it is.

I always say stick to the standards - and they are still proving to be the most effective preventative measures:

1. Wash your hands often, and every time you use the bathroom or after coughing or sneezing or touching anything that might be contaminated.
2. Practice personal hygiene: wash your face, eyes & mouth, clean your ears (hydrogen peroxide on a swab will kill germs in ear canals), brush & floss your teeth, use mouthwash with alcohol, shower, wash your clothes, etc. (maybe all a bit more frequently when something's going around).
3. Respect others personal space by keeping your distance. Avoid close contact & crowds.
4. If you have to cough or sneeze, cover your mouth, move away from others - go toward a window or outdoors if possible.
5. Drink lots of water throughout the day.
6. Spend as much time outdoors as possible and get as much direct sunlight as possible.
7. Eat right as healthy foods in appropriate amounts are nature's immune system boosters.
8. Supplement your diet with health-promoting herbs, teas, vitamins & minerals.
9. Keep indoors areas clean, sanitized and well-ventilated.
10. Exercise daily to improve your immune system, lungs and to keep your weight under control.

[Takoma11]

I don't know about the political stuff but you posted a link about counties in Jefferson City, which wouldn't tell me much even if there wasn't contradiction in the article. Saying using preventive measures correctly would do a lot, I ask what's a lot? I don't think we know Jack and that some of what we're doing might not be as important as some of us think it is.

This large-scale study shows that promoting mask-wearing and even a moderate increase in mask-wearing reduces spread: https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2021/09/surgical-masks-covid-19.html

And while the reduction rate might not seem huge (~11%), a lot of medical facilities are at capacity, and such a reduction could at least pull them back from the edge. That's not just good for COVID patients, it's good for people who are unlucky enough to have a medical emergency (especially someone who needs a respirator) during this surge.

I'd feel a bit different, honestly, if people had complied with advice to the best of their ability, and this is where we found ourselves. But the "YOU CAN'T TELL ME WHAT TO DO!!!" and "WHAT?! YOU DON'T WANT ME TO LIVE MY LIFE?!?!?!?!" whining started really early on, and such a depressing number of people have just basically continued to do what they want to do.

It makes me think of when they introduce new curriculum or protocols to our school. A lot of teachers don't like change, so they don't implement the new stuff with fidelity. Then when scores don't go up in their room, they're like "See?! Told you it wouldn't work!". Most of the people telling me that masking/distancing/vaccinating aren't working tell me that with their mask around their chin.

[cricket]

This large-scale study shows that promoting mask-wearing and even a moderate increase in mask-wearing reduces spread: https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2021/09/surgical-masks-covid-19.html

And while the reduction rate might not seem huge (~11%), a lot of medical facilities are at capacity, and such a reduction could at least pull them back from the edge. That's not just good for COVID patients, it's good for people who are unlucky enough to have a medical emergency (especially someone who needs a respirator) during this surge.

"About 7.6% of people in the intervention villages reported COVID-19 symptoms compared with about 8.6% of those in the control villages during the eight-week study period — a statistically significant difference that indicates a roughly 12% reduction in the risk of experiencing respiratory symptoms."

I'm probably missing something, but how is the difference between 7.6% and 8.6% equal 12%? There are a few things in the article that make me go hmmm, that doesn't tell me a whole lot. My big issue with the study is that it lasted for 8 weeks. What if it went 16 weeks or a year? What is the chance I catch covid tomorrow compared to the chance I catch it sometime in the next week, regardless of if I'm masked or not? I'm not saying masks are useless, but it wouldn't surprise me if the masks that most people use are minimally effective, and even if they reduced your chances of catching it, the odds that you do still catch it naturally go up over time.

I'd feel a bit different, honestly, if people had complied with advice to the best of their ability, and this is where we found ourselves. But the "YOU CAN'T TELL ME WHAT TO DO!!!" and "WHAT?! YOU DON'T WANT ME TO LIVE MY LIFE?!?!?!?!" whining started really early on, and such a depressing number of people have just basically continued to do what they want to do.

You know what started even earlier? The do not wear a mask because they are useless crowd, except that crowd was the CDC. There hasn't been a whole lot of consistency at any point really.

[Takoma11]

"About 7.6% of people in the intervention villages reported COVID-19 symptoms compared with about 8.6% of those in the control villages during the eight-week study period — a statistically significant difference that indicates a roughly 12% reduction in the risk of experiencing respiratory symptoms."

I'm probably missing something, but how is the difference between 7.6% and 8.6% equal 12%?

Because the reduction between 8.6% and 7.6% is 1%. 1/8.6 = 11.6 which rounds to 12.


There are a few things in the article that make me go hmmm, that doesn't tell me a whole lot. My big issue with the study is that it lasted for 8 weeks. What if it went 16 weeks or a year? What is the chance I catch covid tomorrow compared to the chance I catch it sometime in the next week, regardless of if I'm masked or not? I'm not saying masks are useless, but it wouldn't surprise me if the masks that most people use are minimally effective, and even if they reduced your chances of catching it, the odds that you do still catch it naturally go up over time.

Right, but making more of an effort not to catch it during a surge helps you and the medical institutions that may need to care for you. The difference between 8.6% and 7.6% might seem small, but when you're talking about a lot of people, it is significant. For example, in my county it would be the difference between 7,600 cases and 8,600 cases.

You know what started even earlier? The do not wear a mask because they are useless crowd, except that crowd was the CDC. There hasn't been a whole lot of consistency at any point really.

Do you have a link to the CDC saying masks are useless? Because I felt that the messaging I was getting from the beginning was pretty consistent about masking being important.

[cricket]

Because the reduction between 8.6% and 7.6% is 1%. 1/8.6 = 11.6 which rounds to 12.

Still only seeing a 1% difference but hey it's a long time since I've been to school. I can take your word for it.

Right, but making more of an effort not to catch it during a surge helps you and the medical institutions that may need to care for you. The difference between 8.6% and 7.6% might seem small, but when you're talking about a lot of people, it is significant. For example, in my county it would be the difference between 7,600 cases and 8,600 cases.

It would be helpful if we knew about the surge in advance I would say. How did we get to talking about medical facilities anyway? Back to the surge, so you don't mind if we disregard masks before and after the surge as long as we wear them during the surge, ok got it. Even if I'm vaccinated? I only ask because I was sure that I heard somewhere that once I got the jab I wouldn't have to go back to the mask. Not that there's anything wrong with it.

Do you have a link to the CDC saying masks are useless? Because I felt that the messaging I was getting from the beginning was pretty consistent about masking being important.

I would say just Google it and use any link you like.

[gbgoodies]

I hadn't heard that about drinking water before getting the booster shot. I was wiped out for a week, next time I'm drinking water! Lots of water...


I drank a lot of water before my previous vaccine shots, and I had almost no side effects at all.

This is from the email that I received reminding me about my appointment for the booster shot:

84274

[crumbsroom]

Do you have a link to the CDC saying masks are useless? Because I felt that the messaging I was getting from the beginning was pretty consistent about masking being important.




I can say in Canada there was definitely a bit of mixed messaging about masking in the very early months. Masks were being discouraged in the beginning as being not a particularly effective tool. That they may even make us feel too bold and reduce our willingness to socially distance. As a result, instead of masking, hand washing was the most consistently touted measure we were told to practice.



It later came out that this wasn't exactly the truth, and instead they had been mostly worried about pushing masks as an effective preventative measure due to what had just happened with toilet paper. They didn't want mask hording. Wanted to make sure those who would need them more (those working in hospitals) wouldn't have to deal with a shortage on top of all of the other mounting concerns.


Now, do I understand the concern they initially had about shortages? Of course, because I don't think there is any doubt at that time hording would have certainly been a possibility. But considering the last four years of huge swathes of the public doubting the opinions of experts and the media, it has definitely had the effect of giving those who don't want to believe in the masks effectiveness, reason to further reject what they are being told by any official outlets. While I don't think many people could have forseen all of the mask doubt that has happened in the last year (because who the **** should have ever thought wearing a mask to stop the spread of an air born disease should have ever been remotely controversial), anyone who had been paying attention to the trend of people be obnoxiously ridiculous in the things they believe or disbelieve may have had some concern of any kind of muddying the water on this issue.


And now, here we are. Still engaged in debates about whether masks help. During a pandemic. Of an airborn disease. Basically the world is ****ed (if we can't even find commonality in the sacrifice of putting a piece of cloth on our face when we go into a store, I can't wait to see what we won't do when we are in a situation with even higher stakes and we are actually expected to do something even more difficult than this)

[crumbsroom]

As for water drinking, I didn't exactly follow their mandate (had two pints about three hours before), but this was the only time I hydrated at all beforehand, and has been the only time I didn't end up getting noticeable side effects

[Yoda]

There's a sometimes confusing distinction between percent difference and percent change.

Percent difference is just nominal: 5% to 10% is a 5% difference.

Percent change is relative to the starting number. 5% to 10% is a 100% change, because the number doubled (100% of it was added to itself).

Percent change is important for measuring speed/trajectory, so it's used a lot for things like disease spread.

[Sedai]

RE: masks

I believe the CDC statement said that some masks, if I recall, the cloth ones, are basically ineffective. I mean, it says that right on the box, for one: These masks do not prevent the spread of viruses.

I think the N95 are still considered to be effective by the CDC.

I would also point out that erosion of trust in much of this is due to the poor track record and constant readjusting of goal posts by the powers that be. When all this started, I think for the most part, people were willing to cooperate, questioning things a lot less.

[cricket]

There's a sometimes confusing distinction between percent difference and percent change.

Percent difference is just nominal: 5% to 10% is a 5% difference.

Percent change is relative to the starting number. 5% to 10% is a 100% change, because the number doubled (100% of it was added to itself).

Percent change is important for measuring speed/trajectory, so it's used a lot for things like disease spread.

Ok that I understand.

[cricket]

See I don't know why we would need a study from Stanford that contains so many variables. To me it's common sense that masks, depending on the type, would offer various levels of protection. Did someone here say that masks offered no protection or people shouldn't wear them?

[Sedai]

See I don't know why we would need a study from Stanford that contains so many variables. To me it's common sense that masks, depending on the type, would offer various levels of protection. Did someone here say that masks offered no protection or people shouldn't wear them?

Yes, the box certain types of masks come in says that. The CDC also said that about certain types. So, like you said, it depends on the type etc.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EjfxdyyXsAIsLjZ.jpg

[crumbsroom]

RE: masks

I believe the CDC statement said that some masks, if I recall, the cloth ones, are basically ineffective. I mean, it says that right on the box, for one: These masks do not prevent the spread of viruses.


The key word listed on the box is 'prevent'. Masks, especially cloth ones, do not stop the spread of the disease. How could they? But they can slow it. Sort of like I don't expect someone who puts their hands in front of their face before sneezing are preventing the spread of their germs. But they are, at the very least, limiting it.




I would also point out that erosion of trust in much of this is due to the poor track record and constant readjusting of goal posts by the powers that be. When all this started, I think for the most part, people were willing to cooperate, questioning things a lot less.


I think there is some truth to this. I think there have been lots of areas open to criticism. The way they have handled lockdowns (and subsequent re-openings) of both schools and business where I come from, has left a lot to be desired. It is also sometimes confusing to wade through messaging that isn't always communicated particularly well (we have a borderline illiterate in charge of our messaging in Ontario), and there have been constant readjustments towards determining what is the best way to proceed in this situation. It's been understandably frustrating for everyone.



But, it's also important to recognize that this is a situation that is unfolding in real time. The science is always playing catch up to the reality of what is happening. What might have made sense six months ago, can become suspect or flat out wrong as we continue to learn about all the factors that are in play here. Learn more about the nature of this virus. Adjust to its variants.



Ideally, our health professionals would have been 100 percent accurate on everything they have told us. And frankly, considering how little faith there is in anything these days (for both legit reasons and absurdly stupid ones), they kind of had to be. But that is also an unreasonable expectation. They were not likely to ever get close to that. As much as there have been legitimate areas of complaint, to expect all the advice we have received to have been on point from the get go was never going to happen. And those who point to every decision that has been walked back from as proof that experts don't know what they are talking about can be a fairly destructive exercise.

[crumbsroom]

As for the above image, while I haven't seen that particular disclaimer before, the key word there is 'protect'. And at no time, at least not in Canada, has there ever been any official claim that cloth masks will stop you (the wearer) from getting sick. It has constantly been reinforced to us that we wear them to not spread the disease to others. The good and proper neighbourly thing to do.



To keep ourselves from getting sick, that is where the medical grade masks become necessary.

[cricket]

I have the thought, and I could be wrong, that while masks offer a certain level of protection, they are not a long term answer. If Covid is here to stay, aren't they just delaying the inevitable until herd immunity?

[Sedai]

Fair points Crumbs. I think if TPTP had just stopped and said "We don't have enough info yet, and we don't have any idea when things will return to normal, we need more data," instead of several instances of "Once we do this, we get back to normal."

A few instances of that had people firing up their conspiracy engines and deciding to stop listening and following guidance.

Fauci admitting he bent the truth in regards to herd immunity percentile definitely didn't help.

[cricket]

Fair points Crumbs. I think if TPTP had just stopped and said "We don't have enough info yet, and we don't have any idea when things will return to normal, we need more data," instead of several instances of "Once we do this, we get back to normal."

A few instances of that had people firing up their conspiracy engines and deciding to stop listening and following guidance.

Fauci admitting he bent the truth in regards to herd immunity percentile definitely didn't help.

I think any reasonably intelligent person should be able to understand that things change as more info is gathered. My only point in bringing it up is that I can somewhat see why another person could have belief or trust issues.

[Yoda]

Right, I think whether masks are effective in reducing spread is not really the question here. That's just the first question.

Once you establish masks are effective, the second question is "are they effective enough to stop the overall spread of the virus, or do they just delay it?"

When you answer that, then the third question is "is that delay highly important given the very low hospitalization rates for vaccinated people?" That is the actual question we're wrestling with, I think.

In other words, marginal differences to transmission may matter a lot when there's a potential to overwhelm our system (hence the whole "two weeks to bend the curve" thing, which made perfect sense and was well worth even seemingly overreacting for). But if vaccines are widely available and both deaths and hospitalizations plummet among the vaccinated, I'm not sure why the moderate effectiveness of masks represents a moral imperative, rather than, as was suggested earlier, just a slight delay in the spread through the population.

[crumbsroom]

I have the thought, and I could be wrong, that while masks offer a certain level of protection, they are not a long term answer. If Covid is here to stay, aren't they just delaying the inevitable until herd immunity?


My assumption is that while maybe (especially with this super virulent Omicron strain) it is inevitable that most of us end up contracting this eventually, masks allow the spread of the virus to trickle out into the population, instead of exploding. So far hospitals and their staff have just barely been able to keep it together with the spread being slowed. An increase in the quickness of the spread, even if just by a few percentile points, has the potential to be completely crippling. And, as said before, this doesn't just affect those infected with the virus, but anyone who needs emergency or preventative care from other maladies.

[cricket]

By the way Sedai, I dropped off a ton of covid tests near your house Saturday night. They were coming in like mad.

[Sedai]

I think any reasonably intelligent person should be able to understand that things change as more info is gathered. My only point in bringing it up is that I can somewhat see why another person could have belief or trust issues.

I agree! Sadly, the world has a fair percentage of people that do not qualify for your descriptors...

[Sedai]

By the way Sedai, I dropped off a ton of covid tests near your house Saturday night. They were coming in like mad.

Where? I would like to pick a couple up.

[cricket]

Right, I think whether masks are effective in reducing spread is not really the question here. That's just the first question.

Once you establish masks are effective, the second question is "are they effective enough to stop the overall spread of the virus, or do they just delay it?"

When you answer that, then the third question is "is that delay highly important given the very low hospitalization rates for vaccinated people?" That is the actual question we're wrestling with, I think.

In other words, marginal differences to transmission may matter a lot when there's a potential to overwhelm our system (hence the whole "two weeks to bend the curve" thing, which made perfect sense and was well worth even seemingly overreacting for). But if vaccines are widely available and both deaths and hospitalizations plummet among the vaccinated, I'm not sure why the moderate effectiveness of masks represents a moral imperative, rather than, as was suggested earlier, just a slight delay in the spread through the population.

My assumption is that while maybe (especially with this super virulent Omicron strain) it is inevitable that most of us end up contracting this eventually, masks allow the spread of the virus to trickle out into the population, instead of exploding. So far hospitals and their staff have just barely been able to keep it together with the spread being slowed. An increase in the quickness of the spread, even if just by a few percentile points, has the potential to be completely crippling. And, as said before, this doesn't just affect those infected with the virus, but anyone who needs emergency or preventative care from other maladies.

Agree with all of this.

Keep in mind, my issue coming into this thread was that a vaccinated person wanted to have a say in what a vaccinated co-worker did or did not do during off work hours, for their own personal protection. I thought it was too much-that's all.

[cricket]

Where? I would like to pick a couple up.

Well they were used and I brought them to Quest on Forest St. to be tested.

[Yoda]

Re: trust issues.

Yeah, a lot of people burned a lot of trust and goodwill during this, and it's a real shame. It's going to make things much harder next time.

I'm not talking about "well, people have to respond to changing data" or "it's hard to know things in the early going," both of which are true, but both of which require humility about those initial conclusions before they're superseded by new data, too. No, I mean the, eh, fibbing about mask efficacy to try to avoid shortages, as well as the political editorializing (don't gather, but if your protest is really really important we understand).

If we implore people to "trust the science," that necessarily implies trusting the scientists, and that means they need to be rigorously impartial. They can't be politicians, carving out exceptions for non-medical things or withholding their best judgment because they worry how it may be received. They need to speak the truth as they understand it, period. That did not happen here in at least two very important ways, and I'm genuinely fearful for the erosion of public trust that's clearly resulted.

[crumbsroom]

Fair points Crumbs. I think if TPTP had just stopped and said "We don't have enough info yet, and we don't have any idea when things will return to normal, we need more data," instead of several instances of "Once we do this, we get back to normal."



I wouldn't have minded a little of this as well. Personally, I generally respond better to systems that acknowledge some level of humility. But, that said, there probably is a bit of a highwire act going on even when it comes to how you inform the public about a pandemic like this in the initial stages. Play it humble, as you suggested, you may have people not taking the threat very seriously.



But, yeah, constantly dangling the carrot of 'normalcy' in front of everyone in hopes of getting them to act appropriately, was inevitably going to backfire if things didn't 'get back to normal' swiftly. Maybe, they legitimately though this would happen..but I doubt they could have been that sure. I imagine it was more a situation of 'let's get them to do this, even if we have to fib a little, and we'll deal with the fall out later'. Unfortunately, the fallout from this (on top of how much misinformation there is about this to begin with) has been catastrophic.

[Captain Steel]

Re: trust issues.

Yeah, a lot of people burned a lot of trust and goodwill during this, and it's a real shame. It's going to make things much harder next time.

I'm not talking about "well, people have to respond to changing data" or "it's hard to know things in the early going," both of which are true, but both of which require humility about those initial conclusions before they're superseded by new data, too. No, I mean the, eh, fibbing about mask efficacy to try to avoid shortages, as well as the political editorializing (don't gather, but if your protest is really really important we understand).

If we implore people to "trust the science," that necessarily implies trusting the scientists, and that means they need to be rigorously impartial. They can't be politicians, carving out exceptions for non-medical things or withholding their best judgment because they worry how it may be received. They need to speak the truth as they understand it, period. That did not happen here in at least two very important ways, and I'm genuinely fearful for the erosion of public trust that's clearly resulted.

One of the best editorial statements I've read in a while!
This message should be made known to the entire world.
Thanks Chris!

[Takoma11]

Still only seeing a 1% difference but hey it's a long time since I've been to school. I can take your word for it.

Yoda already sort of explained, but if you go from 10 infected people to 8 infected people you have dropped by 2 people, but that represents a 20% drop (because 2/10 = 20%).

If you go from 8.6% of your population being infected to 7.6% of your population, you've just carved 12% off of your cases.

It would be helpful if we knew about the surge in advance I would say. How did we get to talking about medical facilities anyway? Back to the surge, so you don't mind if we disregard masks before and after the surge as long as we wear them during the surge, ok got it. Even if I'm vaccinated? I only ask because I was sure that I heard somewhere that once I got the jab I wouldn't have to go back to the mask. Not that there's anything wrong with it.

When a medical system is overburdened, common sense suggests adjusting behaviors to be more conservative, which might mean forgoing certain behaviors or activities. A few months ago, rates in my county were relatively low, as were rates in my parents' county, and as a group we felt comfortable being unmasked together. Now, we're back to masking.

This is a shifting situation. Different variations have different features. Different places in the country experience peaks and valleys at different times.

And everyone knew about this surge in advance. Everyone. Because every time you get a bunch of people together (ie holidays), you see a surge. My NC surgeon friend says that her hospital had this surge planned out for the last two months, though they did not anticipate quite how bad it would be because they did not foresee Omicron.

I would also point out that erosion of trust in much of this is due to the poor track record and constant readjusting of goal posts by the powers that be. When all this started, I think for the most part, people were willing to cooperate, questioning things a lot less.

I mean, not in my area. I had to (and continue to) drive 30 minutes to a new and different grocery store because even during lockdown and the mask mandate, about 30% of the people in the grocery store were unmasked. And after the whole "some people just wear the mask to show disapproval of me" thing it got worse. A guy I was hiking with told me he went into the gas station with his son--both of them masked--and a man came up to them yelling at them to take off their masks, despite it being the store policy to wear them.

[crumbsroom]

I mean, not in my area. I had to (and continue to) drive 30 minutes to a new and different grocery store because even during lockdown and the mask mandate, about 30% of the people in the grocery store were unmasked. And after the whole "some people just wear the mask to show disapproval of me" thing it got worse. A guy I was hiking with told me he went into the gas station with his son--both of them masked--and a man came up to them yelling at them to take off their masks, despite it being the store policy to wear them.


Good Lord. I knew it was considerably worse in the states but I think my head would explode if I lived where you are. I'm currently living in what is probably one of the anti-mask capitals of Ontario, and while we get lots of street protests about this 'fascism', it is pretty rare to see anyone unmasked in stores at this point.



For the last two months I even had to be the guy who enforced mask wearing in the store I was working at, and I had zero refusals. A couple of people made jokey references to 'showing their papers' in German accents, you know, because there is apparently the threat of extermination if they don't comply. But everyone I dealt with put one one. The only time I had any serious pushback was when I was doing a count for capacity, and some woman came up to me and got right in my face, glaring at the machine I was using to count. She did some head shaking but when I just blankly stared back at her from the deep reservoir of boredom I regarded her from, she quickly went away.

[Takoma11]

For the last two months I even had to be the guy who enforced mask wearing in the store I was working at, and I had zero refusals. A couple of people made jokey references to 'showing their papers' in German accents, you know, because there is apparently the threat of extermination if they don't comply. But everyone I dealt with put one one. The only time I had any serious pushback was when I was doing a count for capacity, and some woman came up to me and got right in my face, glaring at the machine I was using to count. She did some head shaking but when I just blankly stared back at her from the deep reservoir of boredom I regarded her from, she quickly went away.

When I was at my (old) grocery store, I was getting frustrated constantly running into unmasked customers. I asked an employee if they were enforcing the mask policy and she was like "Well, we can't really enforce it. We'd have to ask them to put the mask on." YES YOU WOULD. But you know what? This was at the same time that people were literally being shot, stabbed, and otherwise assaulted for trying to enforce store mask policies, so I couldn't be mad at her for that attitude.

[crumbsroom]

When I was at my (old) grocery store, I was getting frustrated constantly running into unmasked customers. I asked an employee if they were enforcing the mask policy and she was like "Well, we can't really enforce it. We'd have to ask them to put the mask on." YES YOU WOULD. But you know what? This was at the same time that people were literally being shot, stabbed, and otherwise assaulted for trying to enforce store mask policies, so I couldn't be mad at her for that attitude.


This is one of the (many) other infuriating things I've seen during the pandemic. How businesses (many run by multi million or billion dollar corporations) leave enforcement of these rules up to their staff of underpaid teenagers.



Where I was, they left it up to our discretion how we wanted to deal with non-compliant customers. But we were never allowed to engage with someone who was becoming disruptive. And not that I would have even considered it (especially for minimum wage), but this also leave a huge door open for those who would prefer not to play their part. And also, for employees to start getting grief from the other side of the spectrum, those wearing masks who demand those in these ****, no-pay jobs act as enforcers and put their bodies on the line.


I just have so much '**** you' for so much of the world these days.

[doubledenim]

Trader Joe’s (in NC at that) is great for mask wearing. Especially in there, because it’s essentially a lot of people shopping a bodega.

I was gonna link the study that Duke did about the efficacy of masks, but the mask horse has long left the barn.

Next time I have a surgery, I plan on telling the surgeon to not let somebody tell him how to live free. Spit in my wound while saying the Pledge.

We just don’t care about each other. Never forget.

[cricket]

Yoda already sort of explained, but if you go from 10 infected people to 8 infected people you have dropped by 2 people, but that represents a 20% drop (because 2/10 = 20%).

If you go from 8.6% of your population being infected to 7.6% of your population, you've just carved 12% off of your cases.

Right, so the study claims masks make a difference for 1 out of 100 people. To me that's a very small difference on a personal level.

When a medical system is overburdened, common sense suggests adjusting behaviors to be more conservative, which might mean forgoing certain behaviors or activities. A few months ago, rates in my county were relatively low, as were rates in my parents' county, and as a group we felt comfortable being unmasked together. Now, we're back to masking.

This is a shifting situation. Different variations have different features. Different places in the country experience peaks and valleys at different times.

And everyone knew about this surge in advance. Everyone. Because every time you get a bunch of people together (ie holidays), you see a surge. My NC surgeon friend says that her hospital had this surge planned out for the last two months, though they did not anticipate quite how bad it would be because they did not foresee Omicron.

I'm well aware of the strain on medical facilities. My part time job consists of me picking up covid samples at Boston areas hospital and the like. I certainly wouldn't go on a cruise at this time. That has nothing to do with my belief that a co-worker trying to dictate what I do when I'm not working is overstepping their boundaries.

[CringeFest]

Right, so the study claims masks make a difference for 1 out of 100 people.


the reason why i believe that COVID has been such a tremendous issue for medical professionals and lots of people is because it's a sneaky virus overall, you can get a range of symptoms and severities. I don't believe having a lot of anxiety and control is really worth it, in the end i just think that in the end it's personal: to what extent is it worth avoiding? I've avoided crowds of people, worn a mask sometimes, and had the vaccine and i haven't gotten sick, or at least i don't think i have.

[cricket]

the reason why i believe that COVID has been such a tremendous issue for medical professionals and lots of people is because it's a sneaky virus overall, you can get a range of symptoms and severities. I don't believe having a lot of anxiety and control is really worth it, in the end i just think that in the end it's personal: to what extent is it worth avoiding? I've avoided crowds of people, worn a mask sometimes, and had the vaccine and i haven't gotten sick, or at least i don't think i have.

Yea I think there's a fine line. It's important to think about the big picture but also important to think about oneself. Masks are an important tool for the overall good yet probably not as effective on a personal level as some people think, at least the types of masks that most people are wearing. I'm terrified of getting Covid but at the same time I don't live in fear because I believe it will happen regardless of what I do. The vaccine is what gives me some comfort or else I would have more of a daily fear. I could have it now. I left work after 3 hours this morning because my wife was sick and now I'm not feeling quite right. Impossible to get a test at the moment so I'll be going to work tomorrow while she stays home to rest. Wednesday is our busiest day and we already have a few guys out sick. I don't breathe very well masked while doing my job but I'm going to have to keep one on tomorrow just in case I'm infected. Not really sure what else to do.

[Captain Steel]

If we consider the date of Jan. 01, 2020 as the median "start" of Covid-19 in the U.S. ...

(some say it was here as early as 2 months before in 2019, while others feel that it "officially" became recorded, tracked and of epidemic proportions in the country about 2 months after the new year of 2020)

...then in only about 2 more months (give or take a few weeks) we should reach the same time-period end point as the Spanish flu which was recorded as running a total of 2 years and 2 months in the early 20th century before it mutated, weakened, dissipated and became indisguisable from the typical seasonal flu.

The Spanish flu was also a global pandemic. It killed between 17 - 100 million people worldwide with an estimated 500 million cases of infection. But it dissipated on its own in an era where there were no confirmed effective treatments, no vaccines, antiquated diagnostic techniques, and no medical equipment even close to what we have now.

Over a century later we have multiple treatments, vaccines that limit severity, tests, and advanced medical equipment, plus decades of medical understanding. Our major disadvantage in the 21st century is the human population is many times larger than it was a century ago.

So hopefully, we can at least have a tie with the time frame & end date, with our modern medical advances potentially compensating for our much larger global population.

Thus, I'm hoping (not predicting) that the C-19 pandemic will be all but over by the end of March 2022 with the advent of Spring this year.

Of course, another problem we face in our current age is that many groups, organizations, political parties & individuals have found a great deal of profit and power from the pandemic and the fear mongering that's been utilized over it - so there are those with a vested interest in making sure it continues in some form (even if it means continued disinformation & fallacies) no matter the suffering and detriment it costs.

Let the countdown begin.

[Takoma11]

Right, so the study claims masks make a difference for 1 out of 100 people. To me that's a very small difference on a personal level.

The thing is, there aren't just 100 people in our country. There are millions. And so 1 out of 100 people can make a huge difference when it comes to how many beds are available in a hospital, how many beds are available in an ICU, how many ventilators are free.

Imagine if every hospital right now could reduce their case load by 12%. Would that seem like a small difference?

That has nothing to do with my belief that a co-worker trying to dictate what I do when I'm not working is overstepping their boundaries.

He wasn't dictating, for crying out loud. He was complaining about the fact that his job requires him to share a physical space with a person who is (1) taking something he perceives to be an unnecessary risk and (2) already does a poor job with existing precautions. For those of us with medically vulnerable family members, the risks taken by others around us by extension become our own risks.

I'm not trying to dictate that my unvaccinated co-worker shouldn't have come to work after being exposed to three different people who are showing symptoms and then ate with us (unmasked of course because eating), waiting until the end of the meal before telling us that he's possibly been exposed. But I'm allowed to be annoyed about it and grouse about it on the internet!

[cricket]

The thing is, there aren't just 100 people in our country. There are millions. And so 1 out of 100 people can make a huge difference when it comes to how many beds are available in a hospital, how many beds are available in an ICU, how many ventilators are free.

Imagine if every hospital right now could reduce their case load by 12%. Would that seem like a small difference?

I don't know why you keep going back to this because I think it's common knowledge. I'm specifically talking about personal level of protection.

He wasn't dictating, for crying out loud. He was complaining about the fact that his job requires him to share a physical space with a person who is (1) taking something he perceives to be an unnecessary risk and (2) already does a poor job with existing precautions. For those of us with medically vulnerable family members, the risks taken by others around us by extension become our own risks.

I'm not trying to dictate that my unvaccinated co-worker shouldn't have come to work after being exposed to three different people who are showing symptoms and then ate with us (unmasked of course because eating), waiting until the end of the meal before telling us that he's possibly been exposed. But I'm allowed to be annoyed about it and grouse about it on the internet!

He said he did not want him to go on the cruise despite the fact that they are both vaccinated. I believe he has no say in what his co-worker does when he is not at work.

[Takoma11]

I don't know why you keep going back to this because I think it's common knowledge. I'm specifically talking about personal level of protection.

If all you care about is harm reduction for yourself, then fine. I think that acting in a way that keeps other people safe is part of being a member of a community.

Covering your mouth/nose when you sneeze, not coming to school/work when you are sick . . . these things aren't about protecting yourself, they are about protecting others. Do you cover your mouth/nose when you sneeze? Do you stay home when you suspect you are sick and contagious?

He said he did not want him to go on the cruise despite the fact that they are both vaccinated. I believe he has no say in what his co-worker does when he is not at work.

He said he wished his co-worker would not take the cruise and would get tested before returning to work. He doesn't have a say in his co-worker's actions, but he's sure allowed to have an opinion about it!

I don't have a say in whether my students' parents let them stay up until 3am. But I'm allowed to have an opinion about it!

[cricket]

If all you care about is harm reduction for yourself, then fine. I think that acting in a way that keeps other people safe is part of being a member of a community.

Covering your mouth/nose when you sneeze, not coming to school/work when you are sick . . . these things aren't about protecting yourself, they are about protecting others. Do you cover your mouth/nose when you sneeze? Do you stay home when you suspect you are sick and contagious?

We're not talking about me. His posts indicated that he was worried about his protection, so that's why I'm specifically talking about personal protection.

He said he wished his co-worker would not take the cruise and would get tested before returning to work. He doesn't have a say in his co-worker's actions, but he's sure allowed to have an opinion about it!

I don't have a say in whether my students' parents let them stay up until 3am. But I'm allowed to have an opinion about it!

Someone said he couldn't talk about it? Are you saying people shouldn't respond to his posts? Not sure what's going on here.

[Takoma11]

Someone said he couldn't talk about it? Are you saying people shouldn't respond to his posts? Not sure what's going on here.

You keep saying he can't dictate his co-worker's behavior.

I'm pointing out that he's complaining about the behavior, not dictating it. There's a big difference!

Suppose his co-worker didn't cover his sneezes, or didn't wash his hands after using the bathroom. Would he have a right to complain about that? Even if the personal risk (calculated as a percentage) for him was relatively low?

[cricket]

You keep saying he can't dictate his co-worker's behavior.

I'm pointing out that he's complaining about the behavior, not dictating it. There's a big difference!

He said he did not "want" him to go on his cruise. I said it doesn't matter what he wants. You really take issue with that?

Suppose his co-worker didn't cover his sneezes, or didn't wash his hands after using the bathroom. Would he have a right to complain about that? Even if the personal risk (calculated as a percentage) for him was relatively low?

I'm not supposing anything that has nothing to do with what I'm talking about just so it can lead to more pointless posting.

[mark f]

cricket's not into word questions. He's into word answers.

[Takoma11]

He said he did not "want" him to go on his cruise. I said it doesn't matter what he wants. You really take issue with that?

Yes.

This is a stressful situation for a lot of people. He is venting, not at work, about the behavior of someone at work.

If I came into a thread and said that I wish parents wouldn't let their kids stay up until 3am, I don't think a very productive response would be "Well, it doesn't matter what you want."

He knows what he wants doesn't "matter". He knows he has no power over the actions of his co-worker. Being snide about his expression of anxiety and frustration at a situation that a lot of us are in (ie working in close quarters with people who are not taking precautions and who are behaving in ways we see as risky) just isn't a very nice way to respond.

[CringeFest]

If all you care about is harm reduction for yourself, then fine. I think that acting in a way that keeps other people safe is part of being a member of a community.

Covering your mouth/nose when you sneeze, not coming to school/work when you are sick . . . these things aren't about protecting yourself, they are about protecting others. Do you cover your mouth/nose when you sneeze? Do you stay home when you suspect you are sick and contagious?



however, people have certain needs: eat food, drink water, get exercise, find stimulation other than just sitting in front of a screen. I don't have a "community", do you mean the folks who collect my money on a regular basis? The shadowy characters who do things i disapprove of and don't care or make excuses? That's not community, they don't help me survive directly, they're just strangers. There's my pets and a couple of people who i know and care about, but a lot of the people who i used to know are isolating right now or are just overwhelmed by their own problems that they can't give me the time of day.


Do you expect others to worry about covid as much as you do? Do you think having a more authoritarian style of lockdown and more onerous regulations would fix the problem in the long term? In terms of behavioral control and legality, i think "we" have done the best we really can, but we could have done without all the misinformation and polarizing politics...then people would see things more clearly, and be able to think in terms of others around them and themselves, the two aren't all that different if you think about it, us and the others.

[cricket]

Yes.

This is a stressful situation for a lot of people. He is venting, not at work, about the behavior of someone at work.

If I came into a thread and said that I wish parents wouldn't let their kids stay up until 3am, I don't think a very productive response would be "Well, it doesn't matter what you want."

He knows what he wants doesn't "matter". He knows he has no power over the actions of his co-worker. Being snide about his expression of anxiety and frustration at a situation that a lot of us are in (ie working in close quarters with people who are not taking precautions and who are behaving in ways we see as risky) just isn't a very nice way to respond.

Because it may not seem very nice, I told him it was nothing personal. The poster and the person he is speaking about are both vaccinated-very key to why I responded. In my opinion, what his vaccinated co-worker does in his free time is his business. We are not talking about kids or unvaccinated people. And you can go on and on about how the co-worker is engaging in what you consider to be risky behavior, but I don't care. I think the poster is overstepping his boundaries. Then you can go on and on about how the poster is allowed to complain, but nobody said otherwise.

[John McClane]

I have been wondering lately about the implications of bad work environments on the pandemic, namely it’s progression and spread. And, furthermore, what affect the Great Resignation might have on its ending and manageability.

A majority of workplaces are just a collection of job holders punching the clock. I’ve worked in countless places that don’t foster any sense of community and shared responsibility, and I believe it has had a negative affect on the public’s willingness to adopt behaviors different from their norms.

[Little Ash]

Right, I think whether masks are effective in reducing spread is not really the question here. That's just the first question.

Once you establish masks are effective, the second question is "are they effective enough to stop the overall spread of the virus, or do they just delay it?"

When you answer that, then the third question is "is that delay highly important given the very low hospitalization rates for vaccinated people?" That is the actual question we're wrestling with, I think.

In other words, marginal differences to transmission may matter a lot when there's a potential to overwhelm our system (hence the whole "two weeks to bend the curve" thing, which made perfect sense and was well worth even seemingly overreacting for). But if vaccines are widely available and both deaths and hospitalizations plummet among the vaccinated, I'm not sure why the moderate effectiveness of masks represents a moral imperative, rather than, as was suggested earlier, just a slight delay in the spread through the population.

As crumbrsoom said, the original purpose for cloth mask wearing is (or was) to reduce spread. Which, since too many people aren't vaccinated, you can't assume you aren't around them. I recall there being some studies around one year out showing that cloth masks did have some effect on protecting the wearer. Since makes some sense to me as a layperson, because even if it doesn't prevent you from being exposed enough to become sick, they could also reduce the amount of the virus at your initial exposure, giving your body some extra time to start fighting it off (though more effective when paired with some type of paper filter - even a coffee filter. Or double masking).

It's important to note, this was for the original strain. By the time delta was hitting the US, I was hearing on science radio shows (i.e. NPR Science Friday specifically), guest scientists specifically saying, "we aren't in a shortage of masks anymore. people should really upgrade their masks." With omicron, I'm seeing more of those articles.

I remember articles possibly even in the summer of the first year, but definitely before the mass vaccination process was underway for the general public, speculating on what the end of the pandemic might look like, and even there, they were saying, "likely whatever vaccine we may won't be 100% effective, and you'll still have to wear masks for months after your vaccination, as you'll have to wait for everyone else to get vaccinated and the general infection rate to drop low enough."

As my memory goes, this was the general story until about early spring 2021, and part of my gut says the temporary abrupt shift towards ending it right away really stemmed from the original numbers of the vaccine on the original strain looking really good. Even in the wild. I remember thinking at the time though, "Weren't we supposed to have to wait a few months for the masks to come off? What about the delta variant showing up in India? Shouldn't we not get ahead of ourselves on that?" I still read that moment as wishful thinking clouding judgement.

Though I think I've drifted from your original question in my rambling.

[Takoma11]

however, people have certain needs: eat food, drink water, get exercise, find stimulation other than just sitting in front of a screen.

I forgot about the hierarchy of needs! It goes water, food, shelter, cruise ships, right?

Do you expect others to worry about covid as much as you do? Do you think having a more authoritarian style of lockdown and more onerous regulations would fix the problem [B]in the long term?

Sorry, but I don't equate being annoyed with a co-worker with an "authoritarian style of lockdown."

I think the poster is overstepping his boundaries.

Literally what boundary has he overstepped?

Has he reported his co-worker to HR or taken other steps to evoke professional repercussions? No.

Has he taken any action to prevent his co-worker from taking a cruise? No.

Has he confronted his co-worker or scolded him for taking the cruise? Not that we know about, and I highly doubt it.

So what is this boundary he's crossed? Having an opinion and expressing that opinion in a way that will never, ever have any negative impact on his co-worker?

[Rockatansky]

Yeah, I don't see how Captain Terror being unhappy with his coworker's poor judgment (regarding a decision that directly impacts him) is anywhere close to restricting the coworkers freedoms. By that measure, you would be overstepping your boundaries and restricting somebody else's freedoms literally anytime you disagreed with them on anything, because you would feel they shouldn't think that way.

[cricket]

Literally what boundary has he overstepped?

Has he reported his co-worker to HR or taken other steps to evoke professional repercussions? No.

Has he taken any action to prevent his co-worker from taking a cruise? No.

Has he confronted his co-worker or scolded him for taking the cruise? Not that we know about, and I highly doubt it.

So what is this boundary he's crossed? Having an opinion and expressing that opinion in a way that will never, ever have any negative impact on his co-worker?

To me, "want" is a strong word. You can disagree and that's fine. I think him not wanting his co-worker to go on his cruise is too much. You can go on and on and try to expand or prolong this conversation but that's what I think. I can express my opinion correct? Not sure what the need for countless posts is when there's no right or wrong answer. Unless you want to continue to answer your own questions then be my guest.

[Captain Steel]

On another site I read someone still making the argument that everyone should wear a mask because "Masks don't protect you... but they protect others from you."

Think about this for a moment and the illogic quickly becomes clear: the argument surmises that masks have some sort of one-way stoppage system for airborne micro-particles that may be propelled many feet by say a sneeze. If they don't protect you, but protect others FROM you then they can't stop particles from coming in, but will only stop them from going out. This theory makes no sense.

In reality: cloth masks do not have any form of one-way system - if micro-particles within bio-produced aerosols can flow in, they can flow out - and more easily flow out if they are propelled by a cough or sneeze.

If air can flow in and out, then micro particles can go in and out with the air as well.

If you can smell cigarette smoke with a mask on, it means you are inhaling chemical particles that are airborne, so you can just as easily inhale any contagions that are as small as chemical molecules in cigarette smoke or smaller.

If you can see your breath on a cold day while wearing a mask, then you are visually witnessing billions of micro-particles going through your mask - and if you're sick, that breath you can see may contain millions of microscopic contagions as well.

The best masks can do (and Dr. Fauci himself said this early on in 2020) is stop droplets. Droplets containing contagions are probably the least form of spread as gravity pulls them to the ground within a couple feet (so if you are keeping a distance and not spitting directly in someone's mouth as you talk, the chances of spreading virus via droplets is very low).

Masks do not stop aerosols (produced by a strong cough or sneeze) where bodily fluids (mucus or saliva) are "atomized." Microscopic contagions are dependent on their vehicle - if they are in a droplet, they may be stopped by a mask, but if they are riding on an aerosol, such as produced by a sneeze, then a mask will not stop them.

[cricket]

Yeah, I don't see how Captain Terror being unhappy with his coworker's poor judgment (regarding a decision that directly impacts him) is anywhere close to restricting the coworkers freedoms. By that measure, you would be overstepping your boundaries and restricting somebody else's freedoms literally anytime you disagreed with them on anything, because you would feel they shouldn't think that way.

What I basically told him was not to worry about what he can't control. The morality police are worried about protecting others but the big key is people protecting themselves. That's why I got vaccinated, and Planet Terror did that when he got vaccinated. The hospitals are full of people who did not protect themselves, not people that we didn't protect. That doesn't mean there are no exceptions. I'll be wearing a mask tomorrow because I may have been exposed. I wear a mask in medical facilities and in old folks homes even when I don't have to. What I won't do, as a vaccinated person when I have no symptoms, is worry about my vaccinated co-worker when I'm not at work. No f**king way:)

[Little Ash]

Every time I read backwards in this thread, it feels like there's more posts I didn't see the first time (and feel like there are others being referenced I'm still missing). Finally getting back to Captain Terror's original post of complaint, I concur with Rock, I don't see how people are objecting to someone venting about their co-workers exercising some poor judgement. I also can't help but think that complaint would be satisfied if that co-worker simply took a few extra days off after returning and then took a test, given how prevalent omicron currently is right now.

Outside of the covid-context, it feels like people would complain if someone said, "I wish my co-worker didn't come to work sick. They're going to get the rest of us sick" Which, I don't know, maybe people would object to someone venting that complaint on an online message baord.

[cricket]

Every time I read backwards in this thread, it feels like there's more posts I didn't see the first time (and feel like there are others being referenced I'm still missing). Finally getting back to Captain Terror's original post of complaint, I concur with Rock, I don't see how people are objecting to someone venting about their co-workers exercising some poor judgement. I also can't help but think that complaint would be satisfied if that co-worker simply took a few extra days off after returning and then took a test, given how prevalent omicron currently is right now.

Outside of the covid-context, it feels like people would complain if someone said, "I wish my co-worker didn't come to work sick. They're going to get the rest of us sick" Which, I don't know, maybe people would object to someone venting that complaint on an online message baord.

Nobody objected to him sharing his feelings, but people are objecting to me sharing my feelings about his. A vaccinated person doesn't want a guy to go on a cruise but apparently doesn't give a crap if the rest of his co-workers spend the day at the mall and have an orgy afterwards. I remember the good old days of this thread when people were only terrible if they didn't get vaccinated. Of course once they got vaccinated it wasn't enough. All rise!

[Little Ash]

On another site I read someone still making the argument that everyone should wear a mask because "Masks don't protect you... but they protect others from you."

Think about this for a moment and the illogic quickly becomes clear: the argument surmises that masks have some sort of one-way stoppage system for airborne micro-particles that may be propelled many feet by say a sneeze. If they don't protect you, but protect others FROM you then they can't stop particles from coming in, but will only stop them from going out. This theory makes no sense.

In reality: cloth masks do not have any form of one-way system - if micro-particles within bio-produced aerosols can flow in, they can flow out - and more easily flow out if they are propelled by a cough or sneeze.

If air can flow in and out, then micro particles can go in and out with the air as well.

If you can smell cigarette smoke with a mask on, it means you are inhaling chemical particles that are airborne, so you can just as easily inhale any contagions that are as small as chemical molecules in cigarette smoke or smaller.

If you can see your breath on a cold day while wearing a mask, then you are visually witnessing billions of micro-particles going through your mask - and if you're sick, that breath you can see may contain millions of microscopic contagions as well.

The best masks can do (and Dr. Fauci himself said this early on in 2020) is stop droplets. Droplets containing contagions are probably the least form of spread as gravity pulls them to the ground within a couple feet (so if you are keeping a distance and not spitting directly in someone's mouth as you talk, the chances of spreading virus via droplets is very low).

Masks do not stop aerosols (produced by a strong cough or sneeze) where bodily fluids (mucus or saliva) are "atomized." Microscopic contagions are dependent on their vehicle - if they are in a droplet, they may be stopped by a mask, but if they are riding on an aerosol, such as produced by a sneeze, then a mask will not stop them.

I think the flaw in your logic is a mindset that is hardwired to a binary notion of, "the virus either gets through or it doesn't." Apart from possible airflows, think of it more as a certain percentage gets through. If someone's asking, "if I have this mask on in a room where sick people are filling it up with their germs, is it going to filter out enough to reduce my risk of getting sick?" vs. "I am sick in a room with other people, the amount it filters out, how much will it reduce the risk to other people?" And also factor in, I suspect, that the airflow of breathing out into the mask probably has more air going through the mask that air leaking in through the seems that you're going to breathe in, and it's starts to make sense that the risk reduction is greater to other people than it's going to be to yourself.

Again, there's probably a tipping point of effectiveness given how much more contagious the more recent strains are, that I don't know how much having just a cloth mask is going to help. I'm not a scientist.

[cricket]

Remember folks I asked questions but I didn't get any answers.

Is it ok to go to a sporting event?

The mall?

The grocery store?

Maybe take a few days off work after having dinner with the fam to, you know, protect the vaccinated co-worker?

[Little Ash]

Nobody objected to him sharing his feelings, but people are objecting to me sharing my feelings about his. A vaccinated person doesn't want a guy to go on a cruise but apparently doesn't give a crap if the rest of his co-workers spend the day at the mall and have an orgy afterwards. I remember the good old days of this thread when people were only terrible if they didn't get vaccinated. Of course once they got vaccinated it wasn't enough. All rise!

How many people are at this orgy? That might affect how comfortable I'd feel about it - again, particularly in the next few weeks.

[Little Ash]

Remember folks I asked questions but I didn't get any answers.

Is it ok to go to a sporting event?

The mall?

The grocery store?

Maybe take a few days off work after having dinner with the fam to, you know, protect the vaccinated co-worker?

In the next few weeks, a sporting event seems questionable. Granted for me this is all a little abstract, since I haven't had to go into an office in nearly two years.

The mall is... I've not been in a mall longer than the office. I actually don't have a concept for what malls are like anymore.

The grocery store - depends. I guess it depends on the area and the masking practices. If I was in Tak's area I'd probably go back to just ordering groceries to be delivered rather than go to the supermarket. Again, that's for the next few weeks, while I expect omicron to be surging.

[Rockatansky]

Nobody objected to him sharing his feelings, but people are objecting to me sharing my feelings about his. A vaccinated person doesn't want a guy to go on a cruise but apparently doesn't give a crap if the rest of his co-workers spend the day at the mall and have an orgy afterwards. I remember the good old days of this thread when people were only terrible if they didn't get vaccinated. Of course once they got vaccinated it wasn't enough. All rise!
Sounds like you just did in the rest of your post.

[Little Ash]

Granted, one thing this pandemic has highlighted for me is that I hate being around other human beings about 90% of the time.

[CringeFest]

I forgot about the hierarchy of needs! It goes water, food, shelter, cruise ships, right?



Sorry, but I don't equate being annoyed with a co-worker with an "authoritarian style of lockdown."



Literally what boundary has he overstepped?

Has he reported his co-worker to HR or taken other steps to evoke professional repercussions? No.

Has he taken any action to prevent his co-worker from taking a cruise? No.

Has he confronted his co-worker or scolded him for taking the cruise? Not that we know about, and I highly doubt it.

So what is this boundary he's crossed? Having an opinion and expressing that opinion in a way that will never, ever have any negative impact on his co-worker?


I probably shouldn't have said anything, as I wasn't referring to this other dispute...but no I don't think needing to step out of the house should be equated with cruise ships...I was mostly just saying that no amount of complaining about people not fallowing the rules is going to change the current situation, I'm sorry that you feel trapped with people who aren't being that considerate.

[Captain Steel]

I think the flaw in your logic is a mindset that is hardwired to a binary notion of, "the virus either gets through or it doesn't." Apart from possible airflows, think of it more as a certain percentage gets through. If someone's asking, "if I have this mask on in a room where sick people are filling it up with their germs, is it going to filter out enough to reduce my risk of getting sick?" vs. "I am sick in a room with other people, the amount it filters out, how much will it reduce the risk to other people?" And also factor in, I suspect, that the airflow of breathing out into the mask probably has more air going through the mask that air leaking in through the seems that you're going to breathe in, and it's starts to make sense that the risk reduction is greater to other people than it's going to be to yourself.

Again, there's probably a tipping point of effectiveness given how much more contagious the more recent strains are, that I don't know how much having just a cloth mask is going to help. I'm not a scientist.

I get what you're saying. There are tons of variables & situations to consider.

I'm not saying masks do nothing, but is what they do really enough to justify robotic-like adherence to wearing them (or do things like double mask outdoors as some have advised)?

People could argue that when we sneeze we don't just produce aerosols, but droplets simultaneously as well - and that's true.

The mask stops the droplets, but not the aerosols - so it may be stopping some virus, but not all of it. And the contaminated aerosols at close range that can be sucked in on the inhale through another's mask (like smelling cigarette smoke on the inhale) are probably enough to infect someone else (depending on many other factors, of course, like the viral load spewed out and how much is left that gets inhaled).

Are masks a better mitigation measure than nothing? Probably.

I wear one in public, but more to not get hassled and because it makes others feel better.

(Yet, I've been sick more in the last two years after wearing masks, social distancing and living an isolated lifestyle with infectious illnesses - so how I'm getting them, I don't know if these measures are supposed to prevent transmission of contagions. SEEMS like I've caught more viral infections with the consistent use of these mitigation efforts than I ever did before using them.)

Masks may be better than nothing, but are they effective for the purpose they've been purported to be?

I make the analogy of being in a joust and wearing a down vest...
Is a down vest better than nothing? Sure... if, by the off chance, you receive a glancing blow the vest may snag the tip of the jousting pole and prevent you from getting a severe puncture wound (this is like a mask stopping a droplet), but if you receive a straight on blow to your torso, a down vest will do nothing to stop you from being critically injured or killed (this is like a mask NOT stopping the contaminated aerosol of a sneeze).

So, it probably makes more sense to avoid jousting altogether rather than wearing a down vest all the time in case you happen to get into a jousting match! ;)

P.S. I also keep hearing the argument that surgeons wear masks, so if masks don't stop germs, then why are they always worn during surgeries?

Same reason Fauci gave - they stop droplets. Surgeons & nurses do a lot of necessary talking during surgeries. People can't talk without inadvertently spitting to some extent - so the mask keeps droplets from entering open wounds & incisions. The other reason is to protect surgeons & nurses from splash back that can happen - they don't want to get any of the patient's fluids in their mouths or on their faces either.

[cricket]

Sounds like you just did in the rest of your post.

My issue is that he feels that way, not that he's verbalizing it here. Again, "want" is a strong word in my mind. It makes me wonder if he would get what he wanted if he did have a say. You see, if a co-worker of mine went on a cruise, even if I didn't like it, I would want him to do what he wanted to do. If I felt I needed to, I would take extra precautions for myself.

[Captain Terror]

What I won't do, as a vaccinated person when I have no symptoms, is worry about my vaccinated co-worker when I'm not at work. No f**king way:)

My mother has a cardio-pulmonary disease. I do not have the luxury of not worrying. I've done nothing but worry for two solid years. The list of sacrifices my family has had to make in the past two years in order to keep her alive is very long but I won't share that because "nobody cares". The fact that "nobody cares" has been made exceedingly clear on a daily basis.

Despite this, I have taken zero steps to prevent the cruise from happening.

This thread depresses me so I'm going to pretend that it doesn't exist. Thanks to Takoma11 and others for the backup, you've said everything I wanted to say, only more politely.

[cricket]

My mother has a cardio-pulmonary disease. I do not have the luxury of not worrying. I've done nothing but worry for two solid years. The list of sacrifices my family has had to make in the past two years in order to keep her alive is very long but I won't share that because "nobody cares". The fact that "nobody cares" has been made exceedingly clear on a daily basis.

Despite this, I have taken zero steps to prevent the cruise from happening.

This thread depresses me so I'm going to pretend that it doesn't exist. Thanks to Takoma11 and others for the backup, you've said everything I wanted to say, only more politely.

I suspected something like this, and I think anybody would feel badly for what you have had to deal with and wish you the best, but it doesn't change anything. Your high-risk mother had a Thanksgiving party because she wants to live her life. I wouldn't just count that as nothing because it was in November, Especially since it was her putting herself in that situation rather than your coworker who she will never meet. If I were you, I would tell my coworker to have a great time and wish them a healthy return. When he gets back, you should treat him like everybody else because doing otherwise would be a mistake. I'm not saying to let your guard down with him, I'm telling you not to do it with everybody else. Everybody knows the data about cruise ship infections. It doesn't matter because the virus is everywhere else as well. The grocery stores are infested with it and I imagine anywhere else where people gather. Protect yourself and your mother the best that you can because focusing on other people is a waste of time and stress.

[crumbsroom]

I'm not saying masks do nothing, but is what they do really enough to justify robotic-like adherence to wearing them



If masks do something, even if that is just reduce the risk the infection of x people out of a hundred, how does this not justify what is ultimately a pretty mild inconvenience? Considering that virus spread is exponential, (meaning that one infection doesn't remain as just one, it is constantly doubling as it works through the population) even if we are just talking about 1 out of a 100, or 1 out of 1000, this can have a significant impact down the road.


When I see phrasing like 'robotic like adherence' in conversations like these, it seems to have an implication that we are just doing this out of some mindless reflex. But masks make a difference, however small it may seem at the moment. No matter how true it is that they aren't the solution to this problem. They make a difference. And during a pandemic, every case counts. This isn't a case of robotic like adherence.. It is the flat out logical response to an airborn virus that has killed god knows how many people at this point. And at no other time in history can I imagine such a thing as a mandate for mask wearing being considered controversial or greeted with skepticism. Exactly who wins if we over throw the mask mandaters? I honestly want to know.



If you were to ask me what robotic like adherence looks like, it would be more in line with those who have been eager to muddy the waters regarding mask wearing. Like, why is this even a thing? Where the **** did all of this come from? I can wrap my head around those who protest against curfews or lock downs or stores closing or holidays being cancelled. I can see why these, at least for some, may be viewed as sacrifices that are one step too far. I don't see these issues as pure black and white, regardless of what I ultimately think should be done. I can debate those in good faith. But ****ing mask wearing? The math should be simple on this. They help (even if they don't help as much as some people may think) and we lose virtually nothing by adhering to these regulations. End of story.

[cricket]

My only issue with masks is not with the masks themselves, but the fact that it gives some people a false sense of security. Just don't think you are safe because you have one on, it's not enough. I've been wearing one all day today because I think I probably have the virus, but I'm staying away from people and if anybody does come near, I'm holding my breath.

[Citizen Rules]

I don't wear a mask when I go to the grocery store, I wear this instead...

84320

[Stirchley]

I suspected something like this, and I think anybody would feel badly for what you have had to deal with and wish you the best, but it doesn't change anything. Your high-risk mother had a Thanksgiving party because she wants to live her life. I wouldn't just count that as nothing because it was in November, Especially since it was her putting herself in that situation rather than your coworker who she will never meet. If I were you, I would tell my coworker to have a great time and wish them a healthy return. When he gets back, you should treat him like everybody else because doing otherwise would be a mistake. I'm not saying to let your guard down with him, I'm telling you not to do it with everybody else. Everybody knows the data about cruise ship infections. It doesn't matter because the virus is everywhere else as well. The grocery stores are infested with it and I imagine anywhere else where people gather. Protect yourself and your mother the best that you can because focusing on other people is a waste of time and stress.

I think Captain Terror said he doesn’t want to talk about it any longer. Or words to that effect.

[Wyldesyde19]

I’m not going to pretend I haven’t been going out and stopped wearing my mask, nor will I pretend that I haven’t gone to “gatherings” at my friends house, like NYE with about a dozen of us, and I have gone to a few weddings that include the same group largely as well as vacationed with them in the Outerbanks (we’re a tight nit group).

But I certainly won’t object to someone complaining about the risks i am taking here because hey, I get it. In my job alone we had large outbreaks in the last few months where one co worker died and the other lost his wife to COVID. I understand they’re, or Captain T’s and Takoma’s, concerns and won’t try to persuade them otherwise.

But for us, who do take it serious enough, just decided to hang out with our tight nit group and try not to worry so much about the virus for a day or so. We have to distress, and seeing our friends is one way.

All but 4 of us are vaccinated, 2 of whom are conservative and the other two (one of whom I have known since HS) for religious reasons. Also conservative.

We don’t judge them, we don’t even talk about it. It’s up to them. We’re reasonable adults who can agree to disagree without the endless debates and the need to pontificate on how useful a mask truly is or isn’t.

And we certainly aren’t going to moral shame them over it for the sake of moral superiority.

TLDR: Captain T is right to be annoyed, considering the risks involved, but isn’t going to go on a vendetta about it or anything. The guy takes 3 cruised a year, iirc, so postponing wouldn’t be a big deal.
But he also recognized there isn’t much he can do about it, and was just airing his grievances.

[Stirchley]

And we certainly aren’t going to moral shame them over it for the sake of moral superiority.


Is that what we’re doing? Riding the bus yesterday wearing a mask because it’s mandatory I asked the guy opposite to wear his mask properly as his was hanging off. I asked politely & he put his mask on properly. Definitely didn’t feel morally superior. Just nervous.

[Wyldesyde19]

Is that what we’re doing? Riding the bus yesterday wearing a mask because it’s mandatory I asked the guy opposite to wear his mask properly as his was hanging off. I asked politely & he put his mask on properly. Definitely didn’t feel morally superior. Just nervous.


Onbviosuy, in your case, it wasn’t. Pretty sure I don’t need to explain the difference between politely asking someone to put a mask on and shaming someone to wear a mask.

But yes, I do see a lot of moral shaming over this, and I don’t mean just on these boards. I see it quite often on Facebook and the news.

[Citizen Rules]

... The guy takes 3 cruised a year, iirc, so postponing wouldn’t be a big deal...You've seen a lot of movies right? So postponing going to the theater or postponing hanging out with your friends shouldn't be a big deal, you've done that enough in the past already. But I bet you don't want to be told what to do by me. (not really suggesting that just making a point)

Like Cricket just posted, a crowded grocery store full of non-vaccinated, non-mask wearing people who are standing in close proximity to each other...is much more of a covid threat than a cruise ship where everyone has to have proof of vaccinations and be tested for covid. People just focus on cruise ships because the media jumps on outbreaks on cruises like a dog in heat. Grocery stores are far worse for catching covid so are a myriad of other events people attend.

[Citizen Rules]

Is that what we’re doing? Riding the bus yesterday wearing a mask because it’s mandatory I asked the guy opposite to wear his mask properly as his was hanging off. I asked politely & he put his mask on properly. Definitely didn’t feel morally superior. Just nervous.You were totally within your right. I hate to scare anyone but a bus is more crowded and confined than any cruise ship.

[Miss Vicky]

Like Cricket just posted, a crowded grocery store full of non-vaccinated, non-mask wearing people who are standing in close proximity to each other...is much more of a covid threat than a cruise ship where everyone has to have proof of vaccinations and be tested for covid.

Grocery shopping is an unavoidable necessity. Going on a cruise in the middle of a Covid surge is not.

[Citizen Rules]

Grocery shopping is an unavoidable necessity. Going on a cruise in the middle of a Covid surge is not.Are you saying Austruck should have went grocery shopping instead of taking her recent cruise?

[Captain Steel]

I don't wear a mask when I go to the grocery store, I wear this instead...

84320

Now if everyone were wearing one of these I'd feel safe (and like I was living out some sort of pre-60's Roger Corman film)!

So cool!

[Wyldesyde19]

You've seen a lot of movies right? So postponing going to the theater or postponing hanging out with your friends shouldn't be a big deal, you've done that enough in the past already. But I bet you don't want to be told what to do by me. (not really suggesting that just making a point)

Like Cricket just posted, a crowded grocery store full of non-vaccinated, non-mask wearing people who are standing in close proximity to each other...is much more of a covid threat than a cruise ship where everyone has to have proof of vaccinations and be tested for covid. People just focus on cruise ships because the media jumps on outbreaks on cruises like a dog in heat. Grocery stores are far worse for catching covid so are a myriad of other events people attend.


Oh, I’ve gone to the movies close to 20 times in the past year. Mostly alone. Maybe 2 or 3 times with my brother. Never in a group. I social distance there, as does most everyone else, and have a good 4 or 5 seats separating me from anyone. Sometimes, I’m the only one in there.

That said, It isn’t the same thing as a cruise.

[Citizen Rules]

Oh, I’ve gone to the movies close to 20 times in the past year. Mostly alone. Maybe 2 or 3 times with my brother. Never in a group. I social distance there, as does most everyone else, and have a good 4 or 5 seats separating me from anyone. Sometimes, I’m the only one in there.

That said, It isn’t the same thing as a cruise.You're right it's probably worse*. A theater is going to have non-vaccinated people not wearing mask in a closed environment** Cruise ships have all vaccinated and mask required in public areas. The media has distorted the threat of cruise ships and if someone hasn't actually been on one then they don't realize how easy it is to avoid people on them, more so than in the grocery store.

*a guesstimation based on the fact I've been on cruises
**an empty theater wouldn't be much of a threat.

[Yoda]

https://twitter.com/McCormackJohn/status/1481341956403908608

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2022/01/12/covid-omicron-variant-live-updates/

The omicron coronavirus variant will infect “just about everybody” regardless of vaccination status, top U.S. infectious-disease expert Anthony S. Fauci said Tuesday.

But those who have been vaccinated will “very likely, with some exceptions, do reasonably well,” and avoid hospitalization and death, said Fauci, speaking at a virtual “fireside chat” with the Center for Strategic and International Studies. Fauci also said in a Senate hearing the same day that the unvaccinated are 20 times likelier to die, 17 times likelier to be hospitalized and 10 times likelier to be infected than the vaccinated.

[Miss Vicky]

Are you saying Austruck should have went grocery shopping instead of taking her recent cruise?

I'm saying both are risky but that doesn't make them equivalent and the comparison of the two is BS.

[Wyldesyde19]

You're right it's probably worse*. A theater is going to have non-vaccinated people not wearing mask in a closed environment** Cruise ships have all vaccinated and mask required in public areas. The media has distorted the threat of cruise ships and if someone hasn't actually been on one then they don't realize how easy it is to avoid people on them, more so than in the grocery store.

*a guesstimation based on the fact I've been on cruises
**an empty theater wouldn't be much of a threat.
I guess it would depend on the theater itself, and what rules they have in place. In Hagerstown, my area, they have everyone social distance. But they don’t require masks, and don’t require proof of vaccination.

However, they have a maximum occupancy, in light of these conditions, where I’ve never seen more than 20-30 people or so. While cruise ships have far more.
Although, in the theater, it is a more enclosed space. So maybe it might be worse? Hmm.

[Citizen Rules]

Now if everyone were wearing one of these I'd feel safe (and like I was living out some sort of pre-60's Roger Corman film)!

So cool!No one would be safe in a Roger Corman film:eek:

Seriously, I'm done freaking out about covid, sure it's a threat but Omicron isn't nearly as deadly as Delta and I've been vaccinated and boosted. 3 years ago, pre-pandemic I never worried about catching the flu and millions die from that. We need to keep things in perspective and not let the media scare us into phobias.

Omicron might be no more deadly than the flu (https://newspunch.com/report-omicron-could-end-up-being-less-dangerous-than-mild-flu/)

[John McClane]

https://twitter.com/McCormackJohn/status/1481341956403908608

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2022/01/12/covid-omicron-variant-live-updates/Time to start licking door knobs so I can get this Omicron off my bucket list.

[Citizen Rules]

I guess it would depend on the theater itself, and what rules they have in place. In Hagerstown, my area, they have everyone social distance. But they don’t require masks, and don’t require proof of vaccination.

However, they have a maximum occupancy, in light of these conditions, where I’ve never seen more than 20-30 people or so. While cruise ships have far more.
Although, in the theater, it is a more enclosed space. So maybe it might be worse? Hmm.You don't need to be going anymore, you've been enough to the theater.

See how that sounds? That's what you said about the guy who's been on 3 cruises.

*of course I support your right to go the theater, I'm just making a comparative point.

[Captain Steel]

https://twitter.com/McCormackJohn/status/1481341956403908608

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2022/01/12/covid-omicron-variant-live-updates/

Many doctors & scientists are saying Omicron may be our saving grace.

Many say Omicron (with its symptoms amounting to no more than a cold) may provide antibodies and immunity to the C-19 virus and its variants, including the Delta variant.

The fact that Omicron is highly contagious (but not severe) may also be a very good thing as the more people who contract it (and Fauci says almost everyone will get it) the more people will be immune. The spread of Omicron may actually be a better thing than trying to prevent its spread.

Omicron may be the key to achieving herd immunity.

[Citizen Rules]

I'm saying both are risky but that doesn't make them equivalent and the comparison of the two is BS.BS? Prove it. I want hard stats or you just blowing smoke.

[Citizen Rules]

Grocery shopping is an unavoidable necessity. Going on a cruise in the middle of a Covid surge is not.Going out with friends is also avoidable, yet I've seen you post about doing just that. And grocery shipping is not an unavoidable necessity, one can order their groceries online.
You're wrong on both points.

[Wyldesyde19]

You don't need to be going anymore, you've been enough to the theater.

See how that sounds? That's what you said about the guy who's been on 3 cruises.

*of course I support your right to go the theater, I'm just making a comparative point.

I’ve never argued that going to the theater is necessary, so guess what? You’re right. I don’t need to. So since we’ve reach that agreement, that means the cruise is unnecessary, then, right? *

For the record, I stopped going to the movies months ago. Which sucks btw. *

[Citizen Rules]

I’ve never argued that going to the theater is necessary, so guess what? You’re right. I don’t need to. So since we’ve reach that agreement, that means the cruise is unnecessary, then, right? *

For the record, I stopped going to the movies months ago. Which sucks btw. *Do we really want to start brow beating people for exercising their right to enjoy life with some new covid morality? That's not what I want to see happen in America. I do want people to obey pandemic laws and not violate them. I want you to enjoy life and I hope everyone stays safe.

[Citizen Rules]

I might even go on another cruise...if I had the money:(

[Sedai]

It's only matter of time for me, folks. Christmas night, a friend stopped by for coffee, and said he had gone to a family gathering on X-mas eve. At that gathering, the host had everyone stop in to the garage on the way in, take a rapid test, and was then required to show their negative result. No one tested positive. By the next Saturday, 20 people from that gathering had COVID, including my friend. He is fine, btw, as are the rest of the people. The very next week, I came into work and was the only employee working, as every other employee was out sick with COVID, with each of them tracing their cases to New Years/Holiday gatherings.

My wife works at a day care center, which my daughter also attends. Over half of the staff has been out at various time with COVID over the past 3 weeks, with several kids being quarantined at any given time. At no point through all this did anyone in my immediate family get COVID. Alas, we seem to be having too many near misses, and I would think our number will be up any day now... My wife just texted and said two more teachers are down with COVID, including Stella's teacher. We all still fell fine as of right now.

Yikes!

[Wyldesyde19]

Do we really want to start brow beating people for exercising their right to enjoy life with some new covid morality? That's not what I want to see happen in America. I do want people to obey pandemic laws and not violate them. I want you to enjoy life and I hope everyone stays safe.

I wasn’t brow beating anyone. I merely posted that going on cruise wasn’t necessary, and postponing it wouldn’t be such a bad idea, while agreeing that it isn’t necessary for me to go out to the movies either. Which is true. But I also didn’t condemn the person in any way, what so ever.

[Citizen Rules]

I wasn’t brow beating anyone. I merely posted that going on cruise wasn’t necessary, and postponing it wouldn’t be such a bad idea, while agreeing that it isn’t necessary for me to go out to the movies either. Which is true. But I also didn’t condemn the person in any way, what so ever.I'm sorry Wylde I didn't mean to say you personally were brow beating anyone, you weren't. I was talking collectively about society moving towards that means. I should've made that more clear.

*that's why I said we, meaning society in general.
'Do we really want to start brow beating people'

[Citizen Rules]

It's only matter of time for me, folks. Christmas night, a friend stopped by for coffee, and said he had gone to a family gathering on X-mas eve. At that gathering, the host had everyone stop in to the garage on the way in, take a rapid test, and was then required to show their negative result. No one tested positive. By the next Saturday, 20 people from that gathering had COVID, including my friend. He is fine, btw, as are the rest of the people. The very next week, I came into work and was the only employee working, as every other employee was out sick with COVID, with each of them tracing their cases to New Years/Holiday gatherings.

My wife works at a day care center, which my daughter also attends. Over half of the staff has been out at various time with COVID over the past 3 weeks, with several kids being quarantined at any given time. At no point through all this did anyone in my immediate family get COVID. Alas, we seem to be having too many near misses, and I would think our number will be up any day now... My wife just texted and said two more teachers are down with COVID, including Stella's teacher. We all still fell fine as of right now.

Yikes!Question, were all the people absent from your work with covid, the same people at the Xmas party that had to be tested in the garage?

Best wishes for you and your family.

[Stirchley]

Seriously, I'm done freaking out about covid, sure it's a threat but Omicron isn't nearly as deadly as Delta and I've been vaccinated and boosted. 3 years ago, pre-pandemic I never worried about catching the flu and millions die from that. We need to keep things in perspective and not let the media scare us into phobias.


I’m not freaking out (and never have been). I’m triple-vaxxed, so is husband. I wear a mask to church & in stores if it’s mandatory. Never wear a mask outside as it makes no sense. So, I’ve done everything I can to stay safe.

I said I’m not freaking out, but I have had tons of anxiety these past 2 years. Eating disorders have returned though nothing like they were in my twenties. A lot of compulsive “arranging” & “organizing” in the house. Feeling I must do certain things at definite times of the day, etc. I’m losing my mind! :p

[Austruck]

It's only matter of time for me, folks. Christmas night, a friend stopped by for coffee, and said he had gone to a family gathering on X-mas eve. At that gathering, the host had everyone stop in to the garage on the way in, take a rapid test, and was then required to show their negative result. No one tested positive. By the next Saturday, 20 people from that gathering had COVID, including my friend. He is fine, btw, as are the rest of the people. The very next week, I came into work and was the only employee working, as every other employee was out sick with COVID, with each of them tracing their cases to New Years/Holiday gatherings.

My wife works at a day care center, which my daughter also attends. Over half of the staff has been out at various time with COVID over the past 3 weeks, with several kids being quarantined at any given time. At no point through all this did anyone in my immediate family get COVID. Alas, we seem to be having too many near misses, and I would think our number will be up any day now... My wife just texted and said two more teachers are down with COVID, including Stella's teacher. We all still fell fine as of right now.

Yikes!

Try not to overly fear it. Hubby (who has several risk-factor issues in tow!) just came off a bout with Covid. His symptoms were really mild. He coughed some, slept a lot, and had a slight fever (under 100) on a day or two. Nothing else. Feels fine now. Everyone else we've heard of who's had it in the past few months has had light symptoms, even a few who are unvaccinated. (We are vaxxed and boosted here.)

Honestly, if the doctor's office hadn't routinely tested him for Covid, we would have thought he had a mild cold or something less. I didn't get it (we have a big house), but I wasn't worried about it either way--except that it keeps resetting the clock on when my side of the family can get together for CHRISTMAS, which hasn't happened yet due to various issues, including hubby's Covid diagnosis.

My curiosity is not how many "cases" are out there now, but how many hospitalizations and deaths are happening. I was surprised to learn, for instance, that the first Omicron death in the U.S. happened only a few weeks ago. If you'd listen to only the wording of news headlines ("surge," "outbreak," "overwhelming," etc.), you'd have thought people were dropping like flies. And around here, any hospital numbers and issues of trying to handle hospitalizations is mainly due to short staffing issues more so than lack of beds (as in 2020).

What I find vexing is the news media's continued insistence on creating NEWS NEWS NEWS and being disingenuous about how they word headlines and sound bites. Makes it tougher to find out what's really going on.

--

Also, we've got another cruise booked for early May. Definitely looking forward to it. :)

[Stirchley]

And around here, any hospital numbers and issues of trying to handle hospitalizations is mainly due to short staffing issues more so than lack of beds (as in 2020).

Right, but, surely, the “short staffing issues” are due to the fact that members of the staff have Covid?

[Austruck]

Right, but, surely, the “short staffing issues” are due to the fact that members of the staff have Covid?

Or nurses have just burned out and have not come back to work or found other, less taxing work. Even so, that doesn't mean they're really all that sick. Hubby had to stay home from work for nearly two weeks but wasn't SICK all that time. It was simply protocol.

[Austruck]

And still, it doesn't excuse the fact that news organizations are therefore not comparing apples to apples.

[Citizen Rules]

I’m not freaking out (and never have been). I’m triple-vaxxed, so is husband. I wear a mask to church & in stores if it’s mandatory. Never wear a mask outside as it makes no sense. So, I’ve done everything I can to stay safe.

I said I’m not freaking out, but I have had tons of anxiety these past 2 years. Eating disorders have returned though nothing like they were in my twenties. A lot of compulsive “arranging” & “organizing” in the house. Feeling I must do certain things at definite times of the day, etc. I’m losing my mind! :pSorry to hear about your eating disorders:( Hope you're doing better now....I do understand anxiety! For the first time in two years the wife and I went to my parents house for a holiday dinner, I felt a little nervous taking off my mask to eat. But the food was good!

I believe that healthy people who are vaccinated and boosted and take reasonably precautions will be OK, even if they catch covid...Omicron isn't that deadly compared to Delta*

*I'm not belittling the covid threat though, just making logical sense of it in the overall scheme of life.

[Wyldesyde19]

I'm sorry Wylde I didn't mean to say you personally were brow beating anyone, you weren't. I was talking collectively about society moving towards that means. I should've made that more clear.

*that's why I said we, meaning society in general.
'Do we really want to start brow beating people'

Gotcha.

[Citizen Rules]

Gotcha.:) One of my favorite MoFos.

[Miss Vicky]

BS? Prove it. I want hard stats or you just blowing smoke.

Stats on what? That people have to get food in order to stay alive but they don’t have to go on cruises? Is that a joke? As for grocery shopping services/delivery, that costs extra money and is a luxury many people can’t afford. Your argument is ridiculous.

As for me “going out with friends” what exactly are you talking about? Quote the posts. Except for Funny Face, who I see most days and never bothered to distance from because we’re coworkers, I’ve seen very little of my (3) friends since the start of the pandemic. I think I’ve seen my friend Candice a total of two times last year despite living in the same neighborhood - once in June(?) to meet her new kittens and then on Christmas Eve to exchange gifts. She and everyone in her household are fully vaccinated. Prior to that I’d seen her shortly before last Christmas when we did an outdoor gift exchange while wearing masks. My best friend Liz I saw twice in 2020 after the lockdowns started- when we talked from a distance outside while wearing masks. The first time was on my birthday. The second was shortly before Christmas. After being vaccinated we saw more of each other which usually meant cooking at home or getting take-out. I went over to her house the evening of Christmas Eve to do our traditional gingerbread house decorating (which we did not do in 2020). I was the only guest. Everyone present was vaccinated and I only interacted closely with my friend and her two brothers. When I do eat at a restaurant with a friend, which isn’t often, we eat outside when possible, stay as far away from other patrons as possible, wash and sanitize our hands, and wear masks when not eating. If I’m by myself and getting food, I call ahead and pick it up. I don’t think I’ve been to the movie theater since 2019. I did spend one day at the Renaissance Faire with Funny Face last year, but that was an outdoor event and we social distanced and wore our masks.

[Citizen Rules]

Stats on what? That people have to get food in order to stay alive but they don’t have to go on cruises? Is that a joke? ...
Originally Posted by Miss Vicky (https://www.movieforums.com/community/showthread.php?p=2271884#post2271884)
I'm saying both are risky but that doesn't make them equivalent and the comparison of the two is BS.
Once again:

BS? Prove it. I want hard stats or you just blowing smoke.

[Miss Vicky]

Once again:

BS? Prove it. I want hard stats or you just blowing smoke.

Once again:

Stats on what? That people have to get food in order to stay alive but they don’t have to go on cruises? Is that a joke?

[Sedai]

Right, but, surely, the “short staffing issues” are due to the fact that members of the staff have Covid?

I think it is more so that many health care workers were fired recently for non-compliance with mandates. This includes doctors and nurses who already had covid, and therefore had natural immunity. That depends on the area/region, though.

[Citizen Rules]

Once again:

Stats on what? That people have to get food in order to stay alive but they don’t have to go on cruises? Is that a joke?Joke, I was going to ask you the same thing.

Go read the chain of post. You made a challenge to what I said in my post and I asked for hard stats. If you can't prove hard stats then you're just venting.

[Miss Vicky]

You made a challenge to what I said in my post and I asked for hard stats. If you can't prove hard stats then you're just venting.

Hard stats on what? I will not ask this again.

Also I'm still waiting for you to quote those posts where I've talked about going out with friends.

[Citizen Rules]

Hard stats on what? I will not ask this again.

Also I'm still waiting for you to quote those posts where I've talked about going out with friends.Go read the older post, I will not ask you again.

[Sedai]

Austruck - I am not fearful at all, really. I am vaxxed etc., and am one of those maskless people that cause controversary from time to time. I wear a mask if required, but only then. Most of the people I know that have had it, including my sister, have come through it fairly easily.

The odd thing is that one of the people at work that got it, had brought brownies in to work, of which I ate two. She was diagnosed that night with COVID.

[Miss Vicky]

Going out with friends is also avoidable, yet I've seen you post about doing just that.

Also I'm still waiting for you to quote those posts where I've talked about going out with friends.
***

[Citizen Rules]

***You quoted me first, now I want hard stats backing up your claims.

[Miss Vicky]

You quoted me first, now I want hard stats backing up your claims.

Since you won't answer my question and are being difficult for the sake of being difficult, I guess we're at a stalemate.

[Citizen Rules]

Since you won't answer my question and are being difficult for the sake of being difficult, I guess we're at a stalemate then.Guess so...

So Vicky, did all of your venting make you happy today? I think it probably had the opposite effect on you. Remember you quoted me in a challenge and not the other way around.

Oh and I still say Austruck and others will be safer on a cruise ship than repeatability going out into crowded public areas like grocery stores. And I certainly don't think people should be afraid to do what they want if it's legal to do so.

Think I'll count my pennies and see if I can afford a cruise:)

[Miss Vicky]

So Vicky, did all of your venting make you happy today?

I didn't vent about anything today, so no? :confused:

I stated the obvious fact that grocery shopping is necessary and going on a cruise isn't. I also stated both have risks and that taking a risk to get life-sustaining food is not equivalent to taking a risk in order to go on vacation.

[Takoma11]

To me, "want" is a strong word. You can disagree and that's fine.

So if he'd said "I disagree with my co-worker going on a cruise" instead of "I want my co-worker to not go on a cruise", there wouldn't have been any conversation?

Again: in the absence of any power (which he does not have), it doesn't matter how strong a word want is.

I probably shouldn't have said anything, as I wasn't referring to this other dispute...but no I don't think needing to step out of the house should be equated with cruise ships...I was mostly just saying that no amount of complaining about people not fallowing the rules is going to change the current situation, I'm sorry that you feel trapped with people who aren't being that considerate.

And I apologize for being a bit snarky. I do think that socializing and exercise is important. I've been working out with friends and family over Zoom. At the start of the pandemic, a friend invited me to a virtual D&D/game-playing group and we've met every Friday for the lats two years. It is important, yet I think there are ways to get exercise and social time that are more or less risky. Now is a good time to pick the less risky options.

(Yet, I've been sick more in the last two years after wearing masks, social distancing and living an isolated lifestyle with infectious illnesses - so how I'm getting them, I don't know if these measures are supposed to prevent transmission of contagions. SEEMS like I've caught more viral infections with the consistent use of these mitigation efforts than I ever did before using them.)

I've had perfect attendance every marking period for the last two years, because for the first time in 11 years of teaching I haven't gotten sick in the fall or the spring (which at this point has become a predictable annual event).

Protect yourself and your mother the best that you can because focusing on other people is a waste of time and stress.

But you understand that the behavior of other people directly impacts his ability in terms of protecting himself and by extension his mother, right? Because if the people around you aren't taking precautions (masking, hand-washing, etc), that increases your risk. He doesn't have the luxury of not caring about his co-worker's behavior. And he's allowed to vent about that a bit.

My curiosity is not how many "cases" are out there now, but how many hospitalizations and deaths are happening. I was surprised to learn, for instance, that the first Omicron death in the U.S. happened only a few weeks ago. If you'd listen to only the wording of news headlines ("surge," "outbreak," "overwhelming," etc.), you'd have thought people were dropping like flies.

The "death wave" always follows a bit after the infection wave. Hospitalizations are certainly up, hitting record highs in many places.

There are two variables pulling different directions in terms of how many deaths there might be: the number of cases is higher (more deaths), but the general severity of the Omicron variation is lesser (fewer deaths).

Go read the chain of post. You made a challenge to what I said in my post and I asked for hard stats. If you can't prove hard stats then you're just venting.

You are misreading her assertion. She is asserting that cruise ships are not a necessity, while grocery shopping is. And that comparing them in terms of risk therefore doesn't make sense. In other words, going to a hospital waiting room right now because you are having a heart attack is probably more risky than attending a concert where all attendees are masked and vaccinated. But one of those is a necessity and one isn't. I would look askance at someone for the latter (in this current moment), but not for the former.

You're asking her to prove that cruise ships are more dangerous than grocery shopping, but that's not her argument.

[Citizen Rules]

I didn't vent about anything today, so no? :confused:

I stated the obvious fact that grocery shopping is necessary and going on a cruise isn't. I also stated both have risks and that taking a risk to get life-sustaining sustenance is not equivalent to taking a risk in order to go on vacation.Ha, you make me laugh, really, I was just cleaning vacuuming and thinking about this and couldn't help but chuckle:p

I stated the obvious fact that grocery shopping is necessary and going on a cruise isn't.Strawman argument...really Vicky you can do better than that...as of course I never said grocery shopping wasn't necessary and I never said going on a cruise was a necessity.

[Miss Vicky]

You are misreading her assertion. She is asserting that cruise ships are not a necessity, while grocery shopping is. And that comparing them in terms of risk therefore doesn't make sense. In other words, going to a hospital waiting room right now because you are having a heart attack is probably more risky than attending a concert where all attendees are masked and vaccinated. But one of those is a necessity and one isn't. I would look askance at someone for the latter (in this current moment), but not for the former.

You're asking her to prove that cruise ships are more dangerous than grocery shopping, but that's not her argument.

Exactly. Thank you.

[Miss Vicky]

I never said grocery shopping wasn't necessary and I never said going on a cruise was a necessity.

That's technically true - because you said "grocery shipping is not an unavoidable necessity" - but I assumed that was a typo. Perhaps I was wrong in that assumption?

And grocery shipping is not an unavoidable necessity, one can order their groceries online.
You're wrong on both points.

[mark f]

The never ending story of the Coronavirus.

[Captain Steel]

The never ending story of the Coronavirus.

Who else felt ripped off when the end credits came up for The Never Ending Story (1984)?

[Citizen Rules]

Originally Posted by Citizen Rules (https://www.movieforums.com/community/showthread.php?p=2271957#post2271957)
I never said grocery shopping wasn't necessary and I never said going on a cruise was a necessity.


That's technically true - because you said "grocery shipping is not an unavoidable necessity" - but I assumed that was a typo. Perhaps I was wrong in that assumption?

Originally Posted by Citizen Rules (https://www.movieforums.com/community/showthread.php?p=2271897#post2271897)
And grocery shipping is not an unavoidable necessity, one can order their groceries online.
You're wrong on both points.


It was a typo. Should read: And grocery shopping is not an unavoidable necessity, one can order their groceries online.


The never ending story of the Coronavirus. Mark is right, this current cruise ship vs job comfort vs grocery shopping vs whatever...has gone on long enough. Besides we don't want the thread closed. Back to house cleaning for me. Peace:)

[Stirchley]

There's covid at my work, there's covid at my wife's work, and there's covid at our apartment building.

What happened to the place you lived where you had a lovely garden? Did you move?

[Citizen Rules]

Who else felt ripped off when the end credits came up for The Never Ending Story (1984)?Here, this will blow your mind, how did they know Covid was coming? This song was released in 2001...Wait for the 10 second mark with the dancing kid in his covid mask.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDl9ZMfj6aE

[Takoma11]

Oh, children.

CHILD: Hey, you're wearing two masks!
ME: Yup!
CHILD: Is that on accident?
ME: NOPE!

Not five minutes later . . .

CHILD: Wow! So many people are missing today.

7 out of my 24 students were out today. 5 confirmed with COVID, 1 unknown, and 1 with a serious-but-not-COVID virus.

Anyway, teaching to only 70% of the class is awesome, just awesome. Especially when you're building understanding and 30% of the class is going to walk back in next week with no clue.

[cricket]

So if he'd said "I disagree with my co-worker going on a cruise" instead of "I want my co-worker to not go on a cruise", there wouldn't have been any conversation?

Yes to me it's a big difference.

Again: in the absence of any power (which he does not have), it doesn't matter how strong a word want is.

"Despite this, I have taken zero steps to prevent the cruise from happening."

Am I the only one who read that and thought WTF?

But you understand that the behavior of other people directly impacts his ability in terms of protecting himself and by extension his mother, right? Because if the people around you aren't taking precautions (masking, hand-washing, etc), that increases your risk. He doesn't have the luxury of not caring about his co-worker's behavior. And he's allowed to vent about that a bit.

Of course other people affect us all. What I'm saying is it doesn't matter if a cruise is unnecessary or if grocery shopping is. He doesn't want to get the virus, but all of his co-workers present a risk. Why single out 1 person just because you don't agree with his choice? If you want one co-worker tested before work, you should want all of them tested before work. They all present risk it doesn't matter where they've been, to think otherwise is a mistake.

Again, and I have no clue why this keeps getting brought up, but nobody ever suggested he couldn't vent.

[cricket]

What happened to the place you lived where you had a lovely garden? Did you move?

Yes sold the house in October and moved into an apartment. Now I've got to wear a mask to bring the dogs out:(

[cricket]

Oh, children.

CHILD: Hey, you're wearing two masks!
ME: Yup!
CHILD: Is that on accident?
ME: NOPE!

Not five minutes later . . .

CHILD: Wow! So many people are missing today.

7 out of my 24 students were out today. 5 confirmed with COVID, 1 unknown, and 1 with a serious-but-not-COVID virus.

Anyway, teaching to only 70% of the class is awesome, just awesome. Especially when you're building understanding and 30% of the class is going to walk back in next week with no clue.

My wife's best friend is a teacher, tested positive today.

[Takoma11]

Yes to me it's a big difference.

Feels like semantic quibbling, but okay.

"Despite this, I have taken zero steps to prevent the cruise from happening."

Am I the only one who read that and thought WTF?

This is clearly a response to my post earlier saying that, as far as we knew, he had not done anything (complained to HR, made a scene at work, confronted the co-worker, etc). He is confirming my assumption that he's taken zero action to prevent/guilt-trip the co-worker or make the co-worker's life more difficult in any way.

Why single out 1 person just because you don't agree with his choice?
.
.
.
They all present risk it doesn't matter where they've been, to think otherwise is a mistake.

There are obviously other considerations here aside from just the cruise. This co-worker does not mask properly. And the remark about him playing his music loudly in a shared space gives us a window into a situation where someone is working with a person who consistently shows casual disregard for the people around him. When it feels like that disregard is impacting your likelihood of getting sick and, by extension, endangering a loved one, it starts to feel personal.

And while everyone does present some risk, it's not true that all risk is created equal. My student who attended a NASCAR event unmasked and takes off his mask to sneeze does not present the same risk to me as the child who spends his evenings at home with his father, masks appropriately, and washes/sanitizes his hands when appropriate.

The person working right next to you at a desk, who doesn't mask properly, and who has the whole "I'm living my life!" attitude is certainly more of a risk that co-workers who sit further away, mask properly, and take fewer risks in terms of exposure.

Again, and I have no clue why this keeps getting brought up, but nobody ever suggested he couldn't vent.

As long as he uses the word "disagree" instead of "don't want".

[Takoma11]

My wife's best friend is a teacher, tested positive today.

Oh, boo. Hopefully their symptoms stay mild. My friend is currently fighting it and she's been pretty shocked at how bad it is. Not requiring hospitalization, but she said this is the first time she's really experienced shortness of breath.

While my main anxiety is giving it to my parents or sister, I also have to admit that getting COVID right now would be awful for me, professionally. I cannot emphasize enough just how much WORK it is to not be at school in person. A personal day or sick day doesn't just mean staying home. I have to write up a script, basically, for the substitute; my class this year is a really rough group and they are hard on subs and really misbehave when I am not there; then you come back and have to deal with the fallout of whatever happened while you were out. If I get sick, I have to stay home for 5 days. I'm twitchy just thinking about it.

[Stirchley]

Yes sold the house in October and moved into an apartment. Now I've got to wear a mask to bring the dogs out:(

That’s a big change. I know you loved your garden. The dogs did too.

While my main anxiety is giving it to my parents or sister, I also have to admit that getting COVID right now would be awful for me, professionally. I cannot emphasize enough just how much WORK it is to not be at school in person. A personal day or sick day doesn't just mean staying home. I have to write up a script, basically, for the substitute; my class this year is a really rough group and they are hard on subs and really misbehave when I am not there; then you come back and have to deal with the fallout of whatever happened while you were out. If I get sick, I have to stay home for 5 days. I'm twitchy just thinking about it.

Teachers & nurses have it the worst. The NY Times covers teachers every single day all over the States. The stress & fatigue must be so horrible, I don’t know how you do it. I would imagine when you finally get home that it takes hours to decompress.

[cricket]

Feels like semantic quibbling, but okay.

This is clearly a response to my post earlier saying that, as far as we knew, he had not done anything (complained to HR, made a scene at work, confronted the co-worker, etc). He is confirming my assumption that he's taken zero action to prevent/guilt-trip the co-worker or make the co-worker's life more difficult in any way.

It may seem like semantics, but using the word "want" gave me the impression that the thought of doing something about it popped into his head. When he later commented how he didn't, I don't think it was simply a response to you. I believe he did consider it which is what alarms me and is the reason I questioned him in the first place.

There are obviously other considerations here aside from just the cruise. This co-worker does not mask properly. And the remark about him playing his music loudly in a shared space gives us a window into a situation where someone is working with a person who consistently shows casual disregard for the people around him. When it feels like that disregard is impacting your likelihood of getting sick and, by extension, endangering a loved one, it starts to feel personal.

There may be other considerations for you but I'm just talking about the cruise. As for him not masking properly, he didn't make it clear if it was a company policy, and the guy in question is vaccinated. But add it up with the music issue and sounds like maybe he doesn't like the guy. If that's the case then this is all starting to make sense.

And while everyone does present some risk, it's not true that all risk is created equal. My student who attended a NASCAR event unmasked and takes off his mask to sneeze does not present the same risk to me as the child who spends his evenings at home with his father, masks appropriately, and washes/sanitizes his hands when appropriate.

The person working right next to you at a desk, who doesn't mask properly, and who has the whole "I'm living my life!" attitude is certainly more of a risk that co-workers who sit further away, mask properly, and take fewer risks in terms of exposure.

Not talking about people going home and nowhere else, but rather his other co-workers who are out and about. Comparing risk is a waste of time. If you're going on a cruise or to a store, they're both risky. Believe me I know very well about the latter.


As long as he uses the word "disagree" instead of "don't want".

This is beyond silly. It's ok to disagree with somebody right? Please clarify this because this is stupid. Nobody said he shouldn't share his feelings. It's ok to question them when someone does though right??

[cricket]

Oh, boo. Hopefully their symptoms stay mild. My friend is currently fighting it and she's been pretty shocked at how bad it is. Not requiring hospitalization, but she said this is the first time she's really experienced shortness of breath.

While my main anxiety is giving it to my parents or sister, I also have to admit that getting COVID right now would be awful for me, professionally. I cannot emphasize enough just how much WORK it is to not be at school in person. A personal day or sick day doesn't just mean staying home. I have to write up a script, basically, for the substitute; my class this year is a really rough group and they are hard on subs and really misbehave when I am not there; then you come back and have to deal with the fallout of whatever happened while you were out. If I get sick, I have to stay home for 5 days. I'm twitchy just thinking about it.

It seems like every single person around me has it. Wife, friends, co-workers, neighbors, it's everywhere. Cancelled my dentist appointment for Tuesday and the receptionist said it was her first day back. I'm supposed to testify next Thursday and the assistant to the state's attorney told me she had it last week. It is all around me. Why I keep saying the stores are bad, I deliver to about 80 a week and the employees are dropping like flies, doesn't matter if they're casual or ultra vigilant about safety. This is why I'm saying don't waste time worrying about some dude on a cruise because it's right in front of your face and there's not much you can do about it. And this is in Massachusetts. Sedai posted earlier and he's here too.

[cricket]

That’s a big change. I know you loved your garden. The dogs did too.

They actually love it here more because there's a lot of nice places to walk, 2 dog parks, and a whole lot of doggie friends. When we just went out they were agitated that I couldn't go near anyone.

[Takoma11]

Teachers & nurses have it the worst. The NY Times covers teachers every single day all over the States. The stress & fatigue must be so horrible, I don’t know how you do it. I would imagine when you finally get home that it takes hours to decompress.

I have a lot of friends in the medical field (EMTs, nurses, doctors, surgeons), and I feel much worse for them because they are actually watching people die.

But this year has been really stressful. It would have been challenging anyway, but I have a really hard time saying no to things. And since none of my co-workers want to take on any extra work right now, I'm in charge of several committees and other responsibilities. We normally run about 8 after-school clubs for our students. This year there are 5 clubs. I am running 2 of them.

It may seem like semantics, but using the word "want" gave me the impression that the thought of doing something about it popped into his head. When he later commented how he didn't, I don't think it was simply a response to you. I believe he did consider it which is what alarms me and is the reason I questioned him in the first place.

I didn't get that impression at all. He made a sarcastic comment about his co-worker making a "great choice." When people were then like "What, you don't want him to LIVE HIS LIFE!?!!" he replied, "No, I don't want him to take a cruise at the height of this surge." I think if you look back, you'll see that the language of "wants" came from those questioning him.

Not talking about people going home and nowhere else, but rather his other co-workers who are out and about. Comparing risk is a waste of time. If you're going on a cruise or to a store, they're both risky. Believe me I know very well about the latter.

Comparing risk is not a waste of time. And it boils down more to the idea of want vs need. Driving to work might be more dangerous than, I don't know, standing in an open field during a thunderstorm for fun. They are both risky behaviors, but one of them is addressing a basic need while the other isn't.

Ultimately, does it make a difference if I catch COVID from someone whose behavior was perfect (by my standards) or from someone who went to this orgy you're all talking about? No. But it FEELS different, right? If someone was carefully handling a weapon and it misfired and shot you in the leg OR if someone is drunk and goes "Yee-haw!" and shoots you in the leg, the result is the same, but you'd probably feel differently about those scenarios, right? Because the sense of someone being indifferent to your wellbeing adds insult to injury.

This is beyond silly. It's ok to disagree with somebody right? Please clarify this because this is stupid. Nobody said he shouldn't share his feelings. It's ok to question them when someone does though right??

My issue is the tone that was taken with his original post.

If I came into a thread and said that I was frustrated that my neighbors are shooting guns really close to my property, including moments where the gun is (momentarily) pointed at my house/barn, would you respond "It doesn't matter what you want" or "Well, no use worrying about it"? I'd hope not.

I actually agree with you that worrying about the behavior of other people is not a good use of mental or emotional energy. But some of us cannot help but feel overwhelmed by having to share work spaces with people who---from our point of view---are being disrespectful by engaging in certain behaviors. And to relieve some of the pressure, some of us come in here and complain. Just like I complained about my co-worker who was at a basketball practice with three COVID positive teenagers and then spent time with me in a room, unmasked, without disclosing that fact.

I'm questioning the value of disagreeing with him in the way it was done.

[cricket]

I didn't get that impression at all. He made a sarcastic comment about his co-worker making a "great choice." When people were then like "What, you don't want him to LIVE HIS LIFE!?!!" he replied, "No, I don't want him to take a cruise at the height of this surge." I think if you look back, you'll see that the language of "wants" came from those questioning him.

It doesn't matter to me where it came from.

Comparing risk is not a waste of time. And it boils down more to the idea of want vs need. Driving to work might be more dangerous than, I don't know, standing in an open field during a thunderstorm for fun. They are both risky behaviors, but one of them is addressing a basic need while the other isn't.

I think it is a waste of time, because you have no clue if that cruise or shopping at Walmart is riskier, but we do know that both are plenty risky. As far as comparing need vs luxury, I do not care since both come with the same potential result.

Ultimately, does it make a difference if I catch COVID from someone whose behavior was perfect (by my standards) or from someone who went to this orgy you're all talking about? No. But it FEELS different, right? If someone was carefully handling a weapon and it misfired and shot you in the leg OR if someone is drunk and goes "Yee-haw!" and shoots you in the leg, the result is the same, but you'd probably feel differently about those scenarios, right? Because the sense of someone being indifferent to your wellbeing adds insult to injury.

Awful analogy since you can't carefully handle a weapon and shoot someone in the leg. What I can tell you is that I don't give 2 craps how I got it.

My issue is the tone that was taken with his original post.

If I came into a thread and said that I was frustrated that my neighbors are shooting guns really close to my property, including moments where the gun is (momentarily) pointed at my house/barn, would you respond "It doesn't matter what you want" or "Well, no use worrying about it"? I'd hope not.

And I told him nothing personal in case of the odd chance that someone may try to decipher tone.

I actually agree with you that worrying about the behavior of other people is not a good use of mental or emotional energy. But some of us cannot help but feel overwhelmed by having to share work spaces with people who---from our point of view---are being disrespectful by engaging in certain behaviors. And to relieve some of the pressure, some of us come in here and complain. Just like I complained about my co-worker who was at a basketball practice with three COVID positive teenagers and then spent time with me in a room, unmasked, without disclosing that fact.

What in the world are you talking about? You like to come in here to complain, yea, so? Nobody said you shouldn't. You do realize you keep trying to convey something that nobody here disagrees with?

I'm questioning the value of disagreeing with him in the way it was done.

I was blunt instead of beating around the bush. You can keep questioning it until you're blue in the face but I have no idea where you expect it will take you.

[Takoma11]

It doesn't matter to me where it came from.

It should, because you seem to be basing a lot of your response on that word. His use of "want" was a semantic device, in response to a question.

ME: Ugh, my co-worker ate lunch with me without revealing he was exposed. Real cool!
YOU: What, you expect him not to do his job as a coach?
ME: No, I expect him to disclose that he was a close contact.
YOU: Wow, "Expect" is a strong word!

Awful analogy since you can't carefully handle a weapon and shoot someone in the leg.

That is not true. A weapon that you don't realize is damaged can misfire, even with safe handling (happened to my co-worker's husband). But if you want another analogy, sure: someone clearing a table stumbles and a knife falls, stabbing you in the foot. Another person shouts "I'm working on a new circus act" and does their best knife throwing routine, stabbing you in the foot. A person driving down the road suffers a tire blowout, they veer into your lane and hit your car. Someone who is texting while applying makeup and face-timing with a friend veers into your lane and hits your car. The result is the same, the feeling you have about the situations is different. And if your feelings aren't different--ie you don't care why you got stabbed in the foot or run off of the highway--please realize that for many people they would be.

I was blunt instead of beating around the bush. You can keep questioning it until you're blue in the face but I have no idea where you expect it will take you.

I'm not questioning anything. I'm saying I think you were rude and insensitive to what was someone just obviously blowing off some steam. And the way that your remarks were delivered, the main point (that many people in the office may be taking similar or worse risks, that it's exhausting and kind of futile to worry about the behavior of other people) got buried under this weird accusation that he was trying to control his co-worker's behavior when that was so obviously not the case. And I wonder where you think such an approach to another person who is obviously dealing with a stressful situation was going to "take you" (or this discussion).

[cricket]

It should, because you seem to be basing a lot of your response on that word. His use of "want" was a semantic device, in response to a question.

ME: Ugh, my co-worker ate lunch with me without revealing he was exposed. Real cool!
YOU: What, you expect him not to do his job as a coach?
ME: No, I expect him to disclose that he was a close contact.
YOU: Wow, "Expect" is a strong word!

It should? Because you say so? It doesn't.

That is not true. A weapon that you don't realize is damaged can misfire, even with safe handling (happened to my co-worker's husband). But if you want another analogy, sure: someone clearing a table stumbles and a knife falls, stabbing you in the foot. Another person shouts "I'm working on a new circus act" and does their best knife throwing routine, stabbing you in the foot. A person driving down the road suffers a tire blowout, they veer into your lane and hit your car. Someone who is texting while applying makeup and face-timing with a friend veers into your lane and hits your car. The result is the same, the feeling you have about the situations is different. And if your feelings aren't different--ie you don't care why you got stabbed in the foot or run off of the highway--please realize that for many people they would be.

It is true because you don't point a gun at someone. Alec is that you? I'll skip reading the other analogies.

I'm not questioning anything. I'm saying I think you were rude and insensitive to what was someone just obviously blowing off some steam. And the way that your remarks were delivered, the main point (that many people in the office may be taking similar or worse risks, that it's exhausting and kind of futile to worry about the behavior of other people) got buried under this weird accusation that he was trying to control his co-worker's behavior when that was so obviously not the case. And I wonder where you think such an approach to another person who is obviously dealing with a stressful situation was going to "take you" (or this discussion).

Oh so you didn't like it? Don't worry, I won't try to convince you to like it.

[Takoma11]

It should? Because you say so? It doesn't.

It doesn't? Because you say so? It does.

It is true because you don't point a gun at someone. Alec is that you? I'll skip reading the other analogies.

You're dodging the point because you don't like the literal mechanics of the analogy?

My co-worker's husband was returning a gun to their gun safe when it misfired, going through the wall of their closet and into their son's room. Had their son been sitting at his desk, he would have been struck by the bullet. Maybe "mishandled" is a better word?

Surely you can understand the premise of the analogy even if you don't like the mechanics: injury resulting from what we see as negligent behavior is more frustrating/annoying/offensive/insulting than injury resulting from what we see as acceptable/responsible behavior, even if the outcome is the same.

Oh so you didn't like it? Don't worry, I won't try to convince you to like it.

Okay?

[cricket]

It doesn't? Because you say so? It does.

Yes because I say so, since I was very specifically talking about what matters to me.

You're dodging the point because you don't like the literal mechanics of the analogy?

Good try at a guess but no.

My co-worker's husband was returning a gun to their gun safe when it misfired, going through the wall of their closet and into their son's room. Had their son been sitting at his desk, he would have been struck by the bullet. Maybe "mishandled" is a better word?

Sounds like a fake story but I'll take your word for it.

Surely you can understand the premise of the analogy even if you don't like the mechanics: injury resulting from what we see as negligent behavior is more frustrating/annoying/offensive/insulting than injury resulting from what we see as acceptable/responsible behavior, even if the outcome is the same.

I understand your premise but I do not agree with it. I have Covid, I have no idea how I got it, and I don't care. If Planet Terror got Covid he wouldn't know either. So let's blame people and be mad at someone anyway? Not how I live my life.

[cricket]

84406

I should have just done what my wife did. I waited for 3 hours yesterday and I still don't have results. A friend texted me a while ago, she was upset that she tested positive. I said noooo it's a good thing, because you're ok and getting through it. It's why I'm hoping mine comes back positive.

[Stirchley]

I'm not questioning anything. I'm saying I think you were rude and insensitive to what was someone just obviously blowing off some steam.

And the poor guy said he didn’t want to talk about it further, but cricket is still bashing along. You can go all night good buddy. :p

I should have just done what my wife did. I waited for 3 hours yesterday and I still don't have results. A friend texted me a while ago, she was upset that she tested positive. I said noooo it's a good thing, because you're ok and getting through it. It's why I'm hoping mine comes back positive.

I would freak if I took a test that came back positive. I would be so scared. But, that’s just me.

[Captain Spaulding]

84406

That nail polish suits you.

[cricket]

And the poor guy said he didn’t want to talk about it further, but cricket is still bashing along. You can go all night good buddy. :p

I just respond. It confuses me why it keeps going when it does.

I would freak if I took a test that came back positive. I would be so scared. But, that’s just me.

I hear ya, but when you know you're already sick but getting through it ok, having it be Covid and getting it out of the way makes it a relief.

That nail polish suits you.

That's wifey, maybe Saturday night for me;)

[Austruck]

It's why I'm hoping mine comes back positive.

When hubby tested positive about three weeks ago (we were surprised--his symptoms were like a mild cold), I waited to see when I would get it. I didn't. I tested with a PCR test last Friday--negative. I was a bit disappointed because, like you, *IF* I'm going to get it, I'd rather just get it over with. I'm vaxxed and boostered, so I too would anticipate slightly milder symptoms.

I'm about as afraid of Covid now as I would be of the seasonal flu. I anticipate my doctor asking me every year now whether I want a flu shot and whether I want the latest Covid shot/booster to deal with the variant of that particular year. It is what it is at this point.

[cricket]

When hubby tested positive about three weeks ago (we were surprised--his symptoms were like a mild cold), I waited to see when I would get it. I didn't. I tested with a PCR test last Friday--negative. I was a bit disappointed because, like you, *IF* I'm going to get it, I'd rather just get it over with. I'm vaxxed and boostered, so I too would anticipate slightly milder symptoms.

I wonder why you didn't get it? Assuming you were with him a lot. My wife texted me to call in sick for her Tuesday morning and then asked me to come home because she was that sick, first time in 25 years. Wednesday I started getting symptoms so mild I hesitate to call them symptoms, but I figured I should take off work the rest of the week just in case. I thought I must have it then but now I'm feeling so well I'm having doubts.

[Austruck]

I wonder why you didn't get it? Assuming you were with him a lot. My wife texted me to call in sick for her Tuesday morning and then asked me to come home because she was that sick, first time in 25 years. Wednesday I started getting symptoms so mild I hesitate to call them symptoms, but I figured I should take off work the rest of the week just in case. I thought I must have it then but now I'm feeling so well I'm having doubts.

Well, we live in a big house and I have my own huge home office all decked out with everything I need to keep away from him (couch, TV, computer, desks, etc.). Very comfy up here. And once he showed symptoms of even the cold, I steered clear. I did have to drive him to get tested (his main symptom was fatigue/weariness and he didn't want to drive), so we spent nearly an hour in my small car together sharing the air. I figured that alone would do me in.

And he chose to sleep semi-upright in his comfy recliner in the living room, so we weren't breathing on each other overnight either.

Oddly, this was right around Christmas, and we had his daughter/son-in-law and his son over for the day, just before he started showing symptoms. I sat right next to his son for a few hours--and his son had Covid at that gathering but didn't realize it yet. So I dodged that bullet too. Both his son and daughter ended up with Covid around this same time (and neither of them has been vaxxed). They both had mild symptoms too, despite no vaccinations.

[cricket]

Well, we live in a big house and I have my own huge home office all decked out with everything I need to keep away from him (couch, TV, computer, desks, etc.). Very comfy up here. And once he showed symptoms of even the cold, I steered clear. I did have to drive him to get tested (his main symptom was fatigue/weariness and he didn't want to drive), so we spent nearly an hour in my small car together sharing the air. I figured that alone would do me in.

And he chose to sleep semi-upright in his comfy recliner in the living room, so we weren't breathing on each other overnight either.

Oddly, this was right around Christmas, and we had his daughter/son-in-law and his son over for the day, just before he started showing symptoms. I sat right next to his son for a few hours--and his son had Covid at that gathering but didn't realize it yet. So I dodged that bullet too. Both his son and daughter ended up with Covid around this same time (and neither of them has been vaxxed). They both had mild symptoms too, despite no vaccinations.

Well I just got back a negative test which is annoying as hell. There are a lot of possibilities apparently. I may have tested too soon or it's possible I could be positive but tested negative due to where the virus has a stronghold in my body. A realistic possibility for me since I never seem to get sick is that I have a natural immunity system that would automatically fight it off. It's also quite possible that I had it and was asymptomatic, and then spread it to my wife who in turn gave it to her friend. Speaking of her friend, who is a teacher, she is expected back at work this week even if she is still testing positive. That is quite surprising to me.

[CringeFest]

Well I just got back a negative test which is annoying as hell. There are a lot of possibilities apparently. I may have tested too soon or it's possible I could be positive but tested negative due to where the virus has a stronghold in my body. A realistic possibility for me since I never seem to get sick is that I have a natural immunity system that would automatically fight it off. It's also quite possible that I had it and was asymptomatic, and then spread it to my wife who in turn gave it to her friend. Speaking of her friend, who is a teacher, she is expected back at work this week even if she is still testing positive. That is quite surprising to me.


dude, chill. So much of the time i find that "i don't know" is the best answer to everything. One time around March 2020, i had a bunch of stuff to do during the day, but in the morning I felt like i was getting a cold, so i freaked out and was like "well i might have COVID, time to get a test", then i went and got one which came back negative. Then, I realized that it was probably the sleep aide that made me feel that way, i wasn't actually sick at all.

[cricket]

dude, chill. So much of the time i find that "i don't know" is the best answer to everything. One time around March 2020, i had a bunch of stuff to do during the day, but in the morning I felt like i was getting a cold, so i freaked out and was like "well i might have COVID, time to get a test", then i went and got one which came back negative. Then, I realized that it was probably the sleep aide that made me feel that way, i wasn't actually sick at all.

Well it's just that I've been with my wife who is positive so I wanted to be positive as well and get it over with so I can stop dealing with what ifs.

[cricket]

So my manager's wife works at a hospital. She can still go to work even if she's positive as long as she doesn't have symptoms. I did not know this.

[Austruck]

So my manager's wife works at a hospital. She can still go to work even if she's positive as long as she doesn't have symptoms. I did not know this.

I do wonder if some of this is due to the CDC changing to five days instead of ten days for self-isolation. And I wonder how much of that change was because so much of the work force is currently crippled for various reasons.

Hubby stuck with ten days since he had the available sick time and we wanted to be as safe as possible.

Also, we know several people who have gotten Covid twice. One is still unvaccinated, so that would explain that. Unsure about the status of the other one. I'm curious to see if we vaxxed/boostered people can get it more than once. If it's a different variant, I would not be surprised if it could hit someone more than once. Which, again, makes me think our future is to have yearly Covid shots the way we are offered yearly flu shots.

[Stirchley]

Oddly, this was right around Christmas, and we had his daughter/son-in-law and his son over for the day, just before he started showing symptoms. I sat right next to his son for a few hours--and his son had Covid at that gathering but didn't realize it yet. So I dodged that bullet too. Both his son and daughter ended up with Covid around this same time (and neither of them has been vaxxed). They both had mild symptoms too, despite no vaccinations.

I’m confused. You seem such a careful person: why did you allow the son & daughter to visit unvaxxed?

So my manager's wife works at a hospital. She can still go to work even if she's positive as long as she doesn't have symptoms. I did not know this.

I did not know this either.




84472

Oh, yes, sign me up on Wednesday!

[cricket]

I did not know this either.

And my wife went back to work today, still sick, no negative test required.

[Austruck]

I’m confused. You seem such a careful person: why did you allow the son & daughter to visit unvaxxed?

Because we were vaxxed and boosted, and I'm not overly afraid of this variant. Also, the daughter and son-in-law had Covid back in the spring, so we were a bit surprised when they said they got it again.

And I didn't realize his son was unvaxxed until after the fact, though that wouldn't have changed anything. Frankly, vaccines are typically for the person getting vaccinated more so than those around them, anyway. In theory at least. :)

I am a careful person, but I am also learning how to go back to my life. We were as careful as we felt we needed to be while they were visiting (in our large house, sitting across from us in our 17x20' living room). I didn't even hug anyone. :)

And I came out unscathed. They all ended up with Covid... but not from our gathering. They each got it from other sources before we got together. We did not know any of them (or my husband) had Covid until a few days later.

[Miss Vicky]

My brother and nephew came to visit for a few days. He’s vaccinated. He just tested positive. I just took a self test. Also positive.

[mark f]

Sorry to hear that. Hopefully you and yours will be OK.

[Citizen Rules]

My brother and nephew came to visit for a few days. He’s vaccinated. He just tested positive. I just took a self test. Also positive.Sorry to hear that, hopefully it's really mild and everyone is OK.

[Miss Vicky]

Well this is just great. Had a phone appointment with a doctor this evening. He said he was going to prescribe a cough med and an inhaler. I have Kaiser and told him to send the prescription to the 24 hour pharmacy. He said okay, have someone pick it up for you. I asked my friend who went about an hour later. No order for meds. I spent forever on the phone trying to get this crap sorted only to be told that the doctor didn’t order the meds or mention any prescription in his notes so I have to get a new appointment and there’s nothing available until tomorrow. Couldn’t sleep worth a damn last night because of the coughing, which was what the meds were supposed to help with. So this is awesome.

[Mesmerized]

Free covid tests for anyone interested.
https://www.covidtests.gov/

[Citizen Rules]

Here's an OMG, news story.
Anti-Vax Folk Singer Got COVID on Purpose. Now She’s Dead. (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/anti-vax-folk-singer-got-covid-on-purpose-now-she-s-dead/ar-AASWiAA)

[Stirchley]

Well this is just great. Had a phone appointment with a doctor this evening. He said he was going to prescribe a cough med and an inhaler. I have Kaiser and told him to send the prescription to the 24 hour pharmacy. He said okay, have someone pick it up for you. I asked my friend who went about an hour later. No order for meds. I spent forever on the phone trying to get this crap sorted only to be told that the doctor didn’t order the meds or mention any prescription in his notes so I have to get a new appointment and there’s nothing available until tomorrow. Couldn’t sleep worth a damn last night because of the coughing, which was what the meds were supposed to help with. So this is awesome.

How stressful & so very annoying. Hope you have it sorted now. So sorry you have a positive result.

Free covid tests for anyone interested.
https://www.covidtests.gov/

Mine are on the way. :)

[Stirchley]

Here's an OMG, news story.
Anti-Vax Folk Singer Got COVID on Purpose. Now She’s Dead. (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/anti-vax-folk-singer-got-covid-on-purpose-now-she-s-dead/ar-AASWiAA)

Crazy woman.

[hazelavery]

Yes, Covid is spreading very quickly. I am covid positive. :sick: