Coronavirus

[Wyldesyde19]

Wow, harsh much?
If you read the rest of his post, without only quoting a small snippet of it, it would be very clear Jinns reasoning for being harsh towards him.

[Rockatansky]

I assume there were no eclairs in this bag of garbage JJ refers to.

[Wyldesyde19]

I assume there were no eclairs in this bag of garbage JJ refers to.
It’s ok if it’s hovering above the rim. And only one bite taken out of it.

[Jinnistan]

Yeah, if only you have a little Whiplash on the donut, whatever. But when you start to get the puss of a Fantastic Four, best not chance it. There's better donuts in your future.

[Stirchley]

If you read the rest of his post, without only quoting a small snippet of it, it would be very clear Jinns reasoning for being harsh towards him.

You again telling me to read the complete posts. Which I do, thank you very much!

His reasoning is not “very clear” at all. He said “I’ve always thought” leading one to draw the conclusion that his summation of Teller as a person, as written, is obviously pre-coronavirus so I have no idea what set him off against this very talented actor.

[Wyldesyde19]

You again telling me to read the complete posts. Which I do, thank you very much!

His reasoning is not “very clear” at all. He said “I’ve always thought” leading one to draw the conclusion that his summation of Teller as a person, as written, is obviously pre-coronavirus so I have no idea what set him off against this very talented actor.
So, to avoid any confusion on the matter, I’ll explain.
In the very next paragraph, he explains Teller’s Anti Vax stance that resulted him testing positive which resulted in the production of a film he was working on to shut down.
Jinns post was pointing out how his total disregard for safety may have gotten others sick, especially any deemed a high risk, and shut down the film that could result in a loss of time which equals a loss of money.

[Wyldesyde19]

Also, talented actor he may be (I happen to enjoy his films, always liked That Awkward Moment) but that doesn’t preclude them from criticism. One shouldn’t get too attached to an actor, because, if experience is anything, many don’t tend to be genuine people.
Sure there are the exceptions, but generally, as a rule? Not always someone to put on a pedestal.
In Teller’s case, there have been reports he isn’t a very nice guy. Look up his altercation with a wedding planner who claims Teller owes him money for services he provided.

[Citizen Rules]

This Teller dude needs to be sued for catching Covid *thanks to him being an anti vaxxer... and shutting down the film production and for putting those who worked with him at risk.

[Takoma11]

This Teller dude needs to be sued for catching Covid *thanks to him being an anti vaxxer... and shutting down the film production and for putting those who worked with him at risk.

I know that it's too complicated to do something like this, but I'm increasingly frustrated that people who don't vaccinate are then going into spaces where they can infect others. It's a kind of negligence and disregard for the safety of others and it bugs me to no end. Another article I read pointed out how many people on a film set specifically (makeup artists, other actors) have to be around unmasked actors.

[Wyldesyde19]

I know that it's too complicated to do something like this, but I'm increasingly frustrated that people who don't vaccinate are then going into spaces where they can infect others. It's a kind of negligence and disregard for the safety of others and it bugs me to no end. Another article I read pointed out how many people on a film set specifically (makeup artists, other actors) have to be around unmasked actors.
It’s a sad, altruistic view many share that sadly dominates too many uninformed opinions.
It’s the same people who admit it takes lives, but since it’s a low %, they’re ok with it. They also fee that if you’re high risk, stay in the house. Which is gross.

[Jinnistan]

So, to avoid any confusion on the matter, I’ll explain.

I appreciate the defense.

It's true I've never been a fan of Teller's alleged talents, but to be clear I'm not taking any schadenfreude pleasure here in his illness. Only saying that I could have predicted it? If someone were to ask, "Say, which Hollywood beanbag would be most likely to be a Joe Rogan bro with poor reasoning abilities, masculine insecurities and empathy deficiencies?", I would have to say that Miles Teller would come immediately to mind. I'm more concerned about his babka, who he probably never calls.

[Rockatansky]

Look up his altercation with a wedding planner who claims Teller owes him money for services he provided.

This part is too funny to me. You've got millions of dollars. Pay your ****ing bills, guy.

[Jinnistan]

Or the guy who beat him up in a bathroom stall because, he says, Miles owed him money. I can think of about five things that could be, and four of them are powder.


edit: on his honeymoon!

[Wyldesyde19]

All that aside, I thought he quite funny in That Awkward Moment. I aim to see more of his films, particularly The Spectacular Now and Whiplash (I know it has it’s detractors, but I still want to see it).

[Rockatansky]

Or the guy who beat him up in a bathroom stall because, he says, Miles owed him money. I can think of about five things that could be, and four of them are powder.


edit: on his honeymoon!
Pay your ****ing dealer, guy.*

[Jinnistan]

Somebody should tell this cheap bastard that the vaccine is free.

[Takoma11]

All that aside, I thought he quite funny in That Awkward Moment. I aim to see more of his films, particularly The Spectacular Now and Whiplash (I know it has it’s detractors, but I still want to see it).

I would endorse both of these films.

Also, knowing what you know about Teller might make Whiplash more satisfying!

[Citizen Rules]

I would endorse both of these films.

Also, knowing what you know about Teller might make Whiplash more satisfying!I had to look him up...so that's who Miles Teller is, pfft I didn't even like him in the film.

[doubledenim]

https://youtu.be/sDmDpzUAwzY

[Stirchley]

Just met a neighbor of mine. Said he was getting the booster shot at Walmart next week. I told him Moderna doesn’t have a booster shot available yet. He said Walmart told him he could have a Moderna booster so there’s some breakdown of communication there. He’ll phone & find out the correct info before he takes a bus trip there.

[Citizen Rules]

What's weird is that NO ONE WANTS TO WORK these day. I swear every other business I drive by says they're hiring and need employees....and just about every store I shop at has told me that they're short staffed these days. Now if we could just get the panhandlers to go work, we'd solve the labor shortage.

[Stirchley]

What's weird is that NO ONE WANTS TO WORK these day. I swear every other business I drive by says they're hiring and need employees....and just about every store I shop at has told me that they're short staffed these days. Now if we could just get the panhandlers to go work, we'd solve the labor shortage.

This puzzles me too. Neighbor of mine (nice guy) told me he hasn’t worked for 8 months due to employer going out of business. Told me he was paid off the books so no unemployment. Can’t remember what he did for a living, but he seemed to not be looking for something else. He lives with his family in one floor of his MIL’s house, but I’m sure she charges him rent.

[doubledenim]

What's weird is that NO ONE WANTS TO WORK these day. I swear every other business I drive by says they're hiring and need employees....and just about every store I shop at has told me that they're short staffed these days. Now if we could just get the panhandlers to go work, we'd solve the labor shortage.

Hope you never have to panhandle, but I’d still give you a dollar.

The jobs stuff is always weird, because there are “real” jobs and “stuff that kids in high school do to have money to buy weed while they still live with mom and dad and have a vehicle provided for them.”

Most of the jobs I see are service and retail that don’t pay a single person’s living wage, let alone a family. Service and retail have long been subsidized by welfare programs in order to allow people to get by.

I don’t think there are a lot of $20/hr jobs that people are thumbing their nose at.

And there are still a lot of people that are freaked out by covid and don’t want to work in a shoebox with 10 others making fries.

[Takoma11]

Hope you never have to panhandle, but I’d still give you a dollar.

The jobs stuff is always weird, because there are “real” jobs and “stuff that kids in high school do to have money to buy weed while they still live with mom and dad and have a vehicle provided for them.”

Most of the jobs I see are service and retail that don’t pay a single person’s living wage, let alone a family. Service and retail have long been subsidized by welfare programs in order to allow people to get by.

I don’t think there are a lot of $20/hr jobs that people are thumbing their nose at.

And there are still a lot of people that are freaked out by covid and don’t want to work in a shoebox with 10 others making fries.

Yeah, there are a lot of radio ads right now for jobs and the way they talk about the pay and benefits just makes me kind of sad. "Wages up to $14 per hour!". I mean, that's just a little above what I made as a video store clerk over a decade ago, and despite working two jobs at that time (one full time and one part time) I was still below the poverty line. And no way would I want to work any kind of customer service right now, where asking someone to put a mask on could get you beat up or shot.

We're having a hard time finding substitute teachers, despite the pay being decent (about $100 per day). But it's a really stressful job, and one of the women we had in had to stop coming for two days because she thought she might have caught COVID from the children. (All of our students are unvaccinated, of course, and we're averaging about 2 kids per week testing positive).

[Citizen Rules]

Hope you never have to panhandle, but I’d still give you a dollar.

The jobs stuff is always weird, because there are “real” jobs and “stuff that kids in high school do to have money to buy weed while they still live with mom and dad and have a vehicle provided for them.”

Most of the jobs I see are service and retail that don’t pay a single person’s living wage, let alone a family. Service and retail have long been subsidized by welfare programs in order to allow people to get by.

I don’t think there are a lot of $20/hr jobs that people are thumbing their nose at.

And there are still a lot of people that are freaked out by covid and don’t want to work in a shoebox with 10 others making fries. Minimum Wage in the state of Washington is $13.69 per hour, not unusual for starting wages to be $15.00 hour. And where I live there's a lot of business with signs saying they need employees. New home construction around here has gone wild too, business are begging for workers.

But you're right;) a number of the pan handling around here is about buying weed or other dope or booze or cigarettes or Starbucks!

[doubledenim]

I think some of us are too detached from reality or insulated.

Just because someone wants to start a business and profit off of me, doesn’t me that I have an obligation to accept their terms. It just rings hollow for someone to say, “I’m offering a job, I need the person to have all these skills and I’m paying a wage that works me, the employer, you won’t accept my terms, so you’re the problem”. Just like people complain other countries while going to Walmart and filling up their cart with stuff made in those countries, because price.

At multiple points during my ongoing midlife crisis, I think of starting a business. It often comes to, what could I do by myself? Partly because I would feel obligated to pay an employee a minimum of $20/hr. and that is a lot to pay. In the south, where c.o.l. is low.

$15/hr is probably still not making a car payment, housing payment, savings contributions. Then throw in the coronavirus aspect (when you need to stay on topic) and being surrounded by people wearing chin diapers all day.

[Stirchley]

I don’t think there are a lot of $20/hr jobs that people are thumbing their nose at.



Not sure this is true. Unfortunately (and I see this where I live) there are some folks that will not work. Period. A lot of it is legacy: my mom didn’t work, my grandma didn’t work, etc., etc.

[Citizen Rules]

I think some of us are too detached from reality or insulated.

Just because someone wants to start a business and profit off of me, doesn’t me that I have an obligation to accept their terms. It just rings hollow for someone to say, “I’m offering a job, I need the person to have all these skills and I’m paying a wage that works me, the employer, you won’t accept my terms, so you’re the problem”. Just like people complain other countries while going to Walmart and filling up their cart with stuff made in those countries, because price.

At multiple points during my ongoing midlife crisis, I think of starting a business. It often comes to, what could I do by myself? Partly because I would feel obligated to pay an employee a minimum of $20/hr. and that is a lot to pay. In the south, where c.o.l. is low.

$15/hr is probably still not making a car payment, housing payment, savings contributions. Then throw in the coronavirus aspect (when you need to stay on topic) and being surrounded by people wearing chin diapers all day.I'm not quite sure what you're getting at...but yesterday I went by the intersection where I often see a couple of different guys pan handling. Guys who appear more fit and younger than me, they look like they could out work me any day of the week. The thing is a mere 150 yards away is a Panda take out restaurant, which has a sign out front that says they're hiring at $15.50 start-up to $21 and with free meals. Now explain to me what logic applies to a person not being able to work for $15.50 as it's not enough money to live on BUT instead they can pan handle for their living?82149

[Stirchley]

I'm not quite sure what you're getting at...but yesterday I went by the intersection where I often see a couple of different guys pan handling. Guys who appear more fit and younger than me, they look like they could out work me any day of the week. The thing is a mere 150 yards away is a Panda take out restaurant, which has a sign out front that says they're hiring at $15.50 start-up to $21 and with free meals. Now explain to me what logic applies to a person not being able to work for $15.50 as it's not enough money to live on BUT instead they can pan handle for their living?82149

Yes, I see this all the time. You make a very good point.

(Don’t know why the cops always move these panhandlers along at intersections when I can’t see that they’re causing any trouble.)

Got acquainted with one young guy (Bill) during the summer with his so sweet doggie Mia. Shelters won’t take animals so he & Mia sleep in the park. He says quite a few people donate stuff to him, but some of it is heavy & he can only carry so much. Last time I saw him he was with Mia & a friend taking a break outside Dunkin. Both of them helping Mia with a drink of water.

I asked him what on earth would he do in the winter & he said he didn’t have an answer for this. Quite a few people I noticed this year have a tent, which is a good idea, but it will be cold in a New England winter.

[Yoda]

Not every job is meant to support a family. It would actually be completely dysfunctional, economically, for this to be the case. A dynamic economy requires that people--and statistically they are overwhelmingly young people and/or people specifically just looking to supplement their income--have a significant number of zero-barriers-to-entry positions available to them, and the turnover inherent in that availability necessarily means lower wages. It's a feature, not a bug.

[doubledenim]

@CR Your belief system works for you and that’s all that matters.

I’m fortunate enough to not have to panhandle, but I also don’t judge with my charity. A philosophy of mine, “Never refuse someone that is asking for help.” Yes, there are exceptions.

I’m glad you have all the answers CR. Unfortunately, I’m still looking.

[Stirchley]

“Never refuse someone that is asking for help.”

Good for you! This is what it says in the Bible.

[doubledenim]

Not every job is meant to support a family. It would actually be completely dysfunctional, economically, for this to be the case. A dynamic economy requires that people--and statistically they are overwhelmingly young people and/or people specifically just looking to supplement their income--have a significant number of zero-barriers-to-entry positions available to them, and the turnover inherent in that availability necessarily means lower wages. It's a feature, not a bug.

I understand things like this. My issue stems from businesses lamenting, “We can’t staff because…” To me, that is their problem. If you have a business, designed to require a certain type of employee, that you can’t find, your approach needs some rethinking.

[Yoda]

I think that's true unless something else is interfering in the market process. For example, if this is a blip caused in part by stimulus payments, fear of the pandemic, and people moving back home or something, or some combination of these things, then "just pay higher wages" may be a long-term change to what's a short-term disruption.

That said, it is obviously true that some services or products are simply not viable unless wages are low enough. I just think your average worker/consumer might be disturbed to learn how many things fall into that category.

I'm also totally happy with "that's their problem" so long as we take the same approach with employees, at least to a degree. We can be all-in-this-together or we can accept the effectiveness of a moderately adversarial system, but we can't switch back and forth.

[Citizen Rules]

@CR Your belief system works for you and that’s all that matters.
I doubt you know what my belief system is and to be fair I doubt I know what yours or another persons belief system might be...unless they've taken the time to fully explain their belief system...which I haven't.

I’m glad you have all the answers CR. Unfortunately, I’m still looking.I don't believe I said I have all the answers. In fact if you've been reading my many 10,000s of post here at MoFo you know that mostly I claim to not know the answers. All I know is if I needed to support my family by panhandling Instead I'd 'lower' myself to working in fast food for $15.50 an hour with free meals and insurance included....Unless of course one makes more money panhandling.

[doubledenim]

I doubt you know what my belief system is and to be fair I doubt I know what yours or another persons belief system might be...unless they've taken the time to fully explain their belief system...which I haven't.
I don't believe I said I have all the answers. In fact if you've been reading my many 10,000s of post here at MoFo you know that mostly I claim to not know the answers. All I know is if I needed to support my family by panhandling Instead I'd 'lower' myself to working in fast food for $15.50 an hour with free meals and insurance included....Unless of course one makes more money panhandling.


I never made a statement about knowing your belief system. I actually was acknowledging that I accept your belief, wether I agree or not.

To stay on topic 😏 Like I don’t bother arguing about people wearing masks. If you do, fine. If you don’t, fine. You have the right to make up your own mind as you see fit. Repercussions find a way of handling themselves.

[crumbsroom]

As someone who lost their job because of the pandemic, and had to move from the city I lived in my entire life to find a more affordable situation, and has been applying to no end of jobs that are well below what I should be earning because of my experience and education, I'd like to suggest there might not be that strong a correalation between a Panda Express job posting and someone pan handling outside of it.


There seems to be assumptions here that these particularly people haven't applied to jobs. That by looking at them we can determine how able bodied they are. And, even if it is the case that these particular panhandlers are 'choosing' this life style, this is obviously an anecdotal situation and hardly addresses the deeper problems at work here.


If it had not been for the social assistance my government afforded me during this period, or having a family that would have my back in case things had become really dire, or the fact that I live a near monk like existence where I hardly spend any money to begin with, I would have been forced to get out on the street looking for alms as well. After 12 months of being told I am over qualified for entry level positions I have been desperate to get, and being completely ignored by jobs that I should be completely qualified for, I've finally had a job offer. For part time. Seasonal. Minimum wage. And, even though I can see with my eyes there are no shortage of jobs out there, I've had to consider myself lucky to have got it, because I know from experience not every one who is in need and is looking is also getting hired.

[Citizen Rules]

I never made a statement about knowing your belief system. I actually was acknowledging that I accept your belief, wether I agree or not.OK I see, thanks for explaining.

Just for the record, I don't have one belief system about panhandling and I don't buy into any type of dogma or social concepts about it. As I originally posted I just A) seen help wanted signs and B) seen some very fit looking, younger guys panhandling not far from those signs. But I don't have a unified theory or anything like that, it just depends on the situation. When I was in Mexico I seen this woman panhandling, OMG she looked so destitute, she was old and couldn't walk as she had a deformed foot that was the size of a melon, so she sat on the dirty, crowded sidewalk holding a tray with a few coins it...I had great sympathy for her.

[Citizen Rules]

...To stay on topic 😏 Like I don’t bother arguing about people wearing masks. If you do, fine. If you don’t, fine. You have the right to make up your own mind as you see fit. Repercussions find a way of handling themselves. In my state wearing mask in public buildings are required, so I have a real problem with people violating state mandated health laws when they don't wear a mask. Not to mention they can kill a stranger by spreading their germs. And I was shopping yesterday and seen a lot of people not wearing mask in stores.

I also have a real problem with some southern states like Texas making laws that forbid schools and business from require mask wearing. More lives put at risk.

[Takoma11]

I'm not quite sure what you're getting at...but yesterday I went by the intersection where I often see a couple of different guys pan handling. Guys who appear more fit and younger than me, they look like they could out work me any day of the week. The thing is a mere 150 yards away is a Panda take out restaurant, which has a sign out front that says they're hiring at $15.50 start-up to $21 and with free meals. Now explain to me what logic applies to a person not being able to work for $15.50 as it's not enough money to live on BUT instead they can pan handle for their living?

While it's true that there are some people who don't want to work and are happy to live on charity and/or government support programs, there are a LOT of reasons why people cannot get or keep jobs:

Substance abuse problem that makes it hard to go a full shift without a hit OR makes it hard to consistently arrive to a job on time

Executive functioning disorder that impacts time management and organization (say keeping a uniform clean, filling out paperwork correctly, etc)

Social/emotional disability that is untreated, ie the person who will go from zero to throwing a punch if they end up in a confrontation

Criminal record that automatically disqualifies you from a job

Mental health issues

Child care situations that frequently disrupt a typical work day

Physical disability that is disqualifying (ie cannot lift 50 lbs)

And while some of the things listed above can be addressed, often people who are homeless or homeless-adjacent do not have access to the resources they need to successfully address them. From my work in various soup kitchens, I can say that many people have issues that you can just tell would not be a good fit for a regimented job.

Then there's just biases that exist within the hiring process, and an employer can just say "I didn't get a good feeling off of him" and that's that.

[Yoda]

I'm glad you mentioned some of those things (mental health, social conditioning issues, substance abuse) because they're uncomfortable truths that throw a wrench into a lot of pat partisan narratives. They resist the "well, they're just lazy!" stuff as well as the "they just need a chance!" stuff. Reality, as always, is messy.

[MovieMeditation]

I work in a soccer club here in Denmark and we are playing Europe games this season and it’s so weird traveling to countries that have a various degree of control (or the opposite) of coronavirus...*

Because here in Denmark we have officially declared coronavirus not a critical public sickness.

We have removed each and every single restriction related to Covid as well. So you could say that our country is, on paper, back to normal as it was before corona. The only real difference is that people are still getting the virus. It’s not completely gone of course. But it’s very limited now.

And almost 80% of people in Denmark are now vaccinated. So it’s looking good.

[Citizen Rules]

While it's true that there are some people who don't want to work and are happy to live on charity and/or government support programs, there are a LOT of reasons why people cannot get or keep jobs:

Substance abuse problem that makes it hard to go a full shift without a hit OR makes it hard to consistently arrive to a job on time

Executive functioning disorder that impacts time management and organization (say keeping a uniform clean, filling out paperwork correctly, etc)

Social/emotional disability that is untreated, ie the person who will go from zero to throwing a punch if they end up in a confrontation

Criminal record that automatically disqualifies you from a job

Mental health issues

Child care situations that frequently disrupt a typical work day

Physical disability that is disqualifying (ie cannot lift 50 lbs)

And while some of the things listed above can be addressed, often people who are homeless or homeless-adjacent do not have access to the resources they need to successfully address them. From my work in various soup kitchens, I can say that many people have issues that you can just tell would not be a good fit for a regimented job.

Then there's just biases that exist within the hiring process, and an employer can just say "I didn't get a good feeling off of him" and that's that.Of course those are all true and can apply at times, but also the idea that everyone panhandling can't work is a myth as there can be multiple reasons. I mean I see these guys up close as I drive by them, some of them have mobile phones and are drinking a Starbucks...I can't afford either of those. And the weird thing is I live in a racial mixed area and all of the panhandlers are white males in their 20s-30s (that I regularly see)...that doesn't equate with the population mix, I mean I should be seeing people of all races and ages but I don't.

I'd bet drug addiction plays the biggest part. Actually we had no pan handlers until they built a bunch of apartments in the area. Same with shop lifting I've talked to store clerks who say it's rampant around here now.

***We are going off topic here and I don't want to derail the thread so this is my last post on this topic in this thread.

[Takoma11]

Of course those are all true and can apply at times, but also the idea that everyone panhandling can't work is a myth as there can be multiple reasons. I mean I see these guys up close as I drive by them, some of them have mobile phones and are drinking a Starbucks...I can't afford either of those.

I don't know if you've ever read Linda Tirado's book Hand to Mouth, but it does a good job of explaining why you can't always judge someone's financial state from certain external indicators (ie "How can they be poor, they have an X-box?!")

I think that for most people it's some combination of a legit roadblock and then some learned behaviors. I think a good question is how we collectively can genuinely reduce barriers to people being successful in gaining long-term employment. (And some of that might be including in our schools how to get a job when many students don't see those skills modeled at home).

Something that frequently shocks me is the way that some of my students will speak about the homeless or panhandlers (clearly echoing what their parents say), with such a lack of empathy. "They're all secretly rich and they drive nice cars and they just dress up like they are poor to trick you into giving them money." Like, WOW.

I'd bet drug addiction plays the biggest part.

It is a huge problem nationwide. And the pandemic (yay! on topic again!) has made both mental health and addiction issues worse for a lot of people suffering from them.

[Captain Steel]

Less than 4 and a half months left until we reach the 2 year & 2 month mark (this was the point at which the Spanish Flu of 1918 - 1920 had fully dissipated in 1920 without the use of any vaccines or treatments).

I'm basing this on an estimated start date for Covid-19 of January 01, 2020. (Some studies say the virus was within the U.S. up to 2 months or more before this date, while others feel we didn't fully start tracking it until as late as March, 2020. So, 01/01/20 seems a good median.)

[Stirchley]

Substance abuse problem that makes it hard to go a full shift without a hit OR makes it hard to consistently arrive to a job on time

Criminal record that automatically disqualifies you from a job


I have almost no sympathy for people like this. These two are self-created problems.

And the weird thing is I live in a racial mixed area and all of the panhandlers are white males in their 20s-30s (that I regularly see)...that doesn't equate with the population mix, I mean I should be seeing people of all races and ages but I don't.


I live in one of the poorest American cities & we are predominantly Spanish with whites in the minority. Now that you mention it, I think the panhandlers I see are the white males you describe. Bill - the guy I mentioned in an earlier post - would be a good example of this. And very rarely, if ever, is a panhandler female.

[Citizen Rules]

I have almost no sympathy for people like this. These two are self-created problems.



I live in one of the poorest American cities & we are predominantly Spanish with whites in the minority. Now that you mention it, I think the panhandlers I see are the white males you describe. Bill - the guy I mentioned in an earlier post - would be a good example of this. And very rarely, if ever, is a panhandler female.I'd be happy to continue the conservation in PM, I already said I was done discussing it in this thread as I don't want to derail the thread (though my original comment was related to Covid seemingly causing a job opening surplus AND 2 or 3 guys that I continual see panhandling on this one corner making me wonder why. I wasn't ever making a blanket statement about all panhandling and I don't want this thread locked.)

[Citizen Rules]

Did anyone hear that Colin Powell died on the 18th from complications of Covid?

Newstory link (https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/former-secretary-state-colin-powell-dies-covid-complications-n1281746)

[Stirchley]

I already said I was done discussing it in this thread as I don't want to derail the thread …

I wasn’t forcing you to respond to my post. I wanted to have my say & you replied of your own volition. :)

[Citizen Rules]

I wasn’t forcing you to respond to my post. I wanted to have my say & you replied of your own volition. :)Oh I know:) and I totally understand...I just didn't want you to think I was avoiding you when I didn't reply.

[Stirchley]

Oh I know:) and I totally understand...I just didn't want you to think I was avoiding you when I didn't reply.

I post a lot of stuff that nobody responds to so it would be par for the course unfortunately. :p

[Stirchley]

Had my flu shot today at CVS and, coincidentally, The NY Times had an article on how COVID has prepared us for the flu. If we follow COVID guidelines - masks, hand-washing, open windows, social distancing from folks who are sneezing, etc. - we probably won’t get the flu. I’ve mentioned before that since COVID began I have not had the flu. And this from someone who got the flu most winters.

[Citizen Rules]

I post a lot of stuff that nobody responds to so it would be par for the course unfortunately. :pMe too!

Had my flu shot today at CVS and, coincidentally, The NY Times had an article on how COVID has prepared us for the flu. If we follow COVID guidelines - masks, hand-washing, open windows, social distancing from folks who are sneezing, etc. - we probably won’t get the flu. I’ve mentioned before that since COVID began I have not had the flu. And this from someone who got the flu most winters.Me too on all that. I just had my flu shot a couple days ago and I haven't had a cold or flu since the pandemic started. So triple ditto:p

[Stirchley]

Me too!

Not true. People engage more with you.



Walgreens was annoying today. Sign says walk-ins for shots. But now one needs an appointment. Probably because they’re swamped with giving booster shots, which CVS isn’t giving until Moderna boosters are totally approved for lift-off. (Turns out CVS doesn’t do Pfizer boosters.)

[Takoma11]

I have almost no sympathy for people like this. These two are self-created problems.

I would respectfully disagree. Plenty of people are still dealing with addiction related to drugs prescribed to them by their doctors, while other people turn to drugs as a coping mechanism to deal with really awful things in their lives.

And if you take even the lowest estimates for erroneous convictions, there are still a ton of people walking around who have convictions for things they didn't do. And even if someone did commit a crime, an inability to get a job pushes people more toward a desperate way of life.

And even if you don't have sympathy for people who are addicts or have convictions, the question wasn't about who deserves a job, it was "Why aren't these (seemingly healthy, able-bodied) people working?". Drug addiction and convictions--whether they are the person's fault or not--are barriers to getting and keeping employment.


@Citizen: I did read about Powell's death a few days ago. I feel for his family.

I got my booster and my flu shot last Thursday. Thankfully no side effects from either, apart from a sore arm. My sister, who got Moderna, is relieved that she'll be able to get a booster soon. Though she had such a horrible time with her second dose, I hope she does better with this one.

[Stirchley]

I would respectfully disagree. Plenty of people are still dealing with addiction related to drugs prescribed to them by their doctors, while other people turn to drugs as a coping mechanism to deal with really awful things in their lives.


I could respond with my own history of a mis-prescribed sub-opiate & some “awful things” that have happened in my own life. None of which led me to become a drug addict or a criminal. However, I’ve said enough & will leave it here.

[Takoma11]

I was supposed to take a personal day today, but there are literally no substitutes in the system due to a mix of teachers with COVID and some other situations. We're into "splitting classes and the guidance counselor is covering a classroom for two hours" territory.

I could respond with my own history of a mis-prescribed sub-opiate & some “awful things” that have happened in my own life. None of which led me to become a drug addict or a criminal. However, I’ve said enough & will leave it here.

I appreciate that there is some degree of choice/decisions in both. But I also think that it's more complicated than just saying that all addicts or convicted felons brought their situations on themselves. I also think that moral absolutism can get in the way of helping people who want to be helped.

[Stirchley]

… moral absolutism …

Both you & AgrippinaX use a lot of terms with which I am unfamiliar. No clue what the above means.

[Wyldesyde19]

I appreciate that there is some degree of choice/decisions in both. But I also think that it's more complicated than just saying that all addicts or convicted felons brought their situations on themselves. I also think that moral absolutism can get in the way of helping people who want to be helped.

Definitely not all, especially with addicts who often are victims themselves, but with convicts? Most, I feel, are just predators who obviously look to take advantage of someone or hurt someone for their own selfish needs and quite often deserve the lot they’ve been given.
On the other hand, I acknowledge there are some who have earned the right to redemption, but don’t get that opportunity due to the moral absolutism you speak of.

[AgrippinaX]

Both you & AgrippinaX use a lot of terms with which I am unfamiliar. No clue what the above means.

I try not to overdo fancy language, especially when I’m off work. But you got me on “rascal”, so. Will watch it, actually, all that undergrad philosophy lingo can be quite annoying.

[CringeFest]

Both you & AgrippinaX use a lot of terms with which I am unfamiliar. No clue what the above means.

moral absolutism to me is the absolute embodiment of "right" and "wrong", that doesn't leave room for any assessing of situations. It's basically the opposite of moral relativism. IMO, all moral diatribes are morally absolutist, and morality only exists in people's heads.

I think having strong preferences is much better than any form of morality. This is helpful when it comes to thinking for yourself and responding to life's surprises.

[Wyldesyde19]

One of my co workers passed away this past weekend due to COVID-19 complications. 🙁

[Chypmunk]

One of my co workers passed away this past weekend due to COVID-19 complications. 🙁
Sorry to hear this Wylde, condolences.

[Stirchley]

moral absolutism to me is the absolute embodiment of "right" and "wrong", that doesn't leave room for any assessing of situations. It's basically the opposite of moral relativism. IMO, all moral diatribes are morally absolutist, and morality only exists in people's heads.

I think having strong preferences is much better than any form of morality. This is helpful when it comes to thinking for yourself and responding to life's surprises.

So … moral relativism is what?

[CringeFest]

So … moral relativism is what?

it's basically an assertion that the morality of an action is judged by a situation...for example: a moral relativist may judge a serial killer who kills for pleasure as committing greater wrongs than someone who kills someone who's been abusing them.

[Takoma11]

Both you & AgrippinaX use a lot of terms with which I am unfamiliar. No clue what the above means.

It's already sort of been explained, but basically saying that things are either right/good or wrong/bad/evil. Ie "Anyone who steals is evil." This type of thinking doesn't distinguish between a rich teen stealing from a store for fun and someone stealing a loaf of bread to feed their starving family.

Definitely not all, especially with addicts who often are victims themselves, but with convicts? Most, I feel, are just predators who obviously look to take advantage of someone or hurt someone for their own selfish needs and quite often deserve the lot they’ve been given.
On the other hand, I acknowledge there are some who have earned the right to redemption, but don’t get that opportunity due to the moral absolutism you speak of.

I think that a lot of people behave the way that they do because of the circumstances they are in. And the more desperate people are, the more likely they are to make choices that harm themselves or others.

I also just personally know or know of a lot of people who were totally screwed over by the justice system, including a friend who made a joke about bringing rakes back from home after fall break to defend fellow students from police making drug busts on campus. This was just a year after 9/11 and he was convicted of inciting domestic terrorism. A friend of mine from college works for the Innocence Project, and a lot of the stories there are heartbreaking. Another acquaintance works with juveniles who have been given life sentences. This includes cases like a boy who stole a van with his older brother, the older brother and another friend got into a gunfight and killed a third teenager. The boy who stole the van never left the vehicle but was still convicted of murder and given a life sentence.

But I also get that it's hard. I don't like to imagine that someone helping me carry my luggage up to my hotel room when I'm alone might be a convicted rapist. Or that the employee talking to my child at a restaurant might be a convicted child molester. Or that the person helping out at the bank has a past history of fraud. It's also true that different crimes have different rates of recurrence, and that different situations have different potential for reform. It's a really complex issue, and that's even without considering some really serious issues with the way that different groups are treated in the law enforcement, trial, and sentencing process. There are certainly people who are "beyond help", and at the same time people who have the potential to be positive contributors to society. Have you seen the film The Interrupters? It's an interesting documentary that showcases both types: people who are working hard to reform and people who don't seem to actually want to commit to it.

[gbgoodies]

One of my co workers passed away this past weekend due to COVID-19 complications. 🙁


I'm sorry to hear about your coworker. I hope you're doing okay. Do you know if he or she was vaccinated?

[gbgoodies]

Hubby's aunt and uncle were both vaccinated back in April, but last week they both got COVID. His aunt was in a rehab from an accident, and we think that's where they got it. His uncle was in the hospital for a few days, but they both seem to be doing okay now. They are both in their 80s, so we were worried about them, but thankfully they're both okay, most likely thanks to the vaccine.

[Wyldesyde19]

I'm sorry to hear about your coworker. I hope you're doing okay. Do you know if he or she was vaccinated?
I’m fine. Mostly was shocked, due to we weren’t aware how serious it was. He was a decent guy. Always nice towards me. It’s a shame.
I’m not sure if he was vaccinated or not, to be honest.

[Wyldesyde19]

Hubby's aunt and uncle were both vaccinated back in April, but last week they both got COVID. His aunt was in a rehab from an accident, and we think that's where they got it. His uncle was in the hospital for a few days, but they both seem to be doing okay now. They are both in their 80s, so we were worried about them, but thankfully they're both okay, most likely thanks to the vaccine.
My prayers. For them both.

[gbgoodies]

My prayers. For them both.


Thank you. They're both staying home for a while. They had a rough few days, but fortunately they're both feeling better and seem to be over the worst of it.

Hubby and I have been worried about his parents since this all started. They're both in their 80s and high risk due to health issues. They've been arguing with us about staying in the house throughout the worst of it, but this put a scare in them because they finally believe us that the vaccine isn't a guarantee that they won't get COVID.

[Citizen Rules]

One of my co workers passed away this past weekend due to COVID-19 complications. 🙁Wylde, sorry to hear about that:(

Hubby's aunt and uncle were both vaccinated back in April, but last week they both got COVID. His aunt was in a rehab from an accident, and we think that's where they got it. His uncle was in the hospital for a few days, but they both seem to be doing okay now. They are both in their 80s, so we were worried about them, but thankfully they're both okay, most likely thanks to the vaccine. Sorry to hear that too GBG, but glad to hear that they are doing OK....I want thank you for posting about that as it reminds me that even though I'm vaccinated I still need to be careful and it's easy to forget.

[gbgoodies]

Sorry to hear that too GBG, but glad to hear that they are doing OK....I want thank you for posting about that as it reminds me that even though I'm vaccinated I still need to be careful and it's easy to forget.


Thanks.

I think we all need a reminder about this every once in a while. Most people around here are acting like it's over, but people are still getting sick and dying every day from COVID.

[Maxxx17]

I think this is the worst pandemic in the history of mankind. My wife works as a phlebotomist in a polyclinic. And more and more patients come in every day. And a lot of them are already dying and in serious condition. I'm very worried about her. Doctors these days are better than any heroes. My wife takes the tests from them. Blood and stuff like that. She has constant contact with the sick. I'm worried she won't get sick too...

[Takoma11]

Hubby's aunt and uncle were both vaccinated back in April, but last week they both got COVID. His aunt was in a rehab from an accident, and we think that's where they got it. His uncle was in the hospital for a few days, but they both seem to be doing okay now. They are both in their 80s, so we were worried about them, but thankfully they're both okay, most likely thanks to the vaccine.

I hope they continue to have a positive recovery.

I think this is the worst pandemic in the history of mankind. My wife works as a phlebotomist in a polyclinic. And more and more patients come in every day. And a lot of them are already dying and in serious condition. I'm very worried about her. Doctors these days are better than any heroes. My wife takes the tests from them. Blood and stuff like that. She has constant contact with the sick. I'm worried she won't get sick too...

My friend's sister is an ultrasound technician and her last two years have been hell. She would be doing scans on people and they would code, watching people decline, worrying about her own safety and her family's safety. It's doctors but it's also all the other people who are working in the places (like hospitals) with the high concentration of COVID patients. I hope that your wife continues to stay safe. I hope that the people in her clinic are good about safety precautions.

[cricket]

it's basically an assertion that the morality of an action is judged by a situation...for example: a moral relativist may judge a serial killer who kills for pleasure as committing greater wrongs than someone who kills someone who's been abusing them.

I had never heard of that term either but I suppose anything could be called something. Traditionally, I would just say in a situation like that, which do I think is worse, but I can dig it. I would also say that if that is the basic definition, then just about anybody is a moral relativist. If that's the case, I think it would be better to have a term for somebody who isn't. I find it kind of interesting where these terms come from.

[CringeFest]

I had never heard of that term either but I suppose anything could be called something. Traditionally, I would just say in a situation like that, which do I think is worse, but I can dig it. I would also say that if that is the basic definition, then just about anybody is a moral relativist. If that's the case, I think it would be better to have a term for somebody who isn't. I find it kind of interesting where these terms come from.

a lot of it comes from philosophy and politics, and i agree that most people are moral relativists anyway...however, there were talking heads in the early 2000s who were basically saying that moral relativism is for "the liberals", lol

[Takoma11]

Oh, boo.

One of my student's mother has COVID and so we are now waiting to see what his result it (which will determine if some of his classmates also have to quarantine). This kid has already been out 10 days on a previous quarantine. And he really needs to be in class getting direct instruction (I try via Google Meet, but it simply isn't the same as being in-person). Our librarian is still out with COVID.

After a year and a half of very few cases in our community, COVID is just tearing things up. I don't think that the 60% vaccination rate helps (and the rate for my students' parents is much lower, and obviously all of my students are unvaccinated).

[Stirchley]

Oh, boo.

One of my student's mother has COVID and so we are now waiting to see what his result it (which will determine if some of his classmates also have to quarantine). This kid has already been out 10 days on a previous quarantine. And he really needs to be in class getting direct instruction (I try via Google Meet, but it simply isn't the same as being in-person). Our librarian is still out with COVID.

After a year and a half of very few cases in our community, COVID is just tearing things up. I don't think that the 60% vaccination rate helps (and the rate for my students' parents is much lower, and obviously all of my students are unvaccinated).

Crazy. Stay as well as you can be given the circumstances.

[Takoma11]

Crazy. Stay as well as you can be given the circumstances.

I'm trying!

I had a parent teacher conference today with a guy who kept bunching up his mask (so that it bulged on the sides) because he "needed to breathe".

[Stirchley]

I'm trying!

I had a parent teacher conference today with a guy who kept bunching up his mask (so that it bulged on the sides) because he "needed to breathe".

Crazy.

I went flying off today running all kinds of errands. Dawned on me in Whole Foods I’m the only person in the store without a mask. Next up was buying new sneakers face-to-face with the store clerk. Then a bus ride home. Suddenly remembered a small cloth mask in my bag - inadequate, but it did the job. Crazy to leave the house maskless after all this time. :rolleyes:

[gbgoodies]

Oh, boo.

One of my student's mother has COVID and so we are now waiting to see what his result it (which will determine if some of his classmates also have to quarantine). This kid has already been out 10 days on a previous quarantine. And he really needs to be in class getting direct instruction (I try via Google Meet, but it simply isn't the same as being in-person). Our librarian is still out with COVID.

After a year and a half of very few cases in our community, COVID is just tearing things up. I don't think that the 60% vaccination rate helps (and the rate for my students' parents is much lower, and obviously all of my students are unvaccinated).


My mother was teacher, and Hubby and I were going through some of her things recently, and we started talking about how hard it must be to be a teacher nowadays. It's hard enough under normal circumstances, but now, it's not just the students that you have to deal with, but the parents too. There's no consistency in the rules, so every school district seems to be doing things differently. Some parents get angry because they want their kid to wear a mask and be safe from COVID, and other parents get angry because they don't want their kid to have to wear a mask. There's just no way to please everyone, and with most kids still not being able to get vaccinated, nobody is safe. :rolleyes:

[gbgoodies]

Crazy.

I went flying off today running all kinds of errands. Dawned on me in Whole Foods I’m the only person in the store without a mask. Next up was buying new sneakers face-to-face with the store clerk. Then a bus ride home. Suddenly remembered a small cloth mask in my bag - inadequate, but it did the job. Crazy to leave the house maskless after all this time. :rolleyes:


Hubby and I still wear our masks whenever we go out. We're seeing less and less people wearing them every day, but there are still about 30-40 percent of the people around here wearing them in stores.

The news has been saying that they expect the numbers to go up again in December and January because of the holidays, so hopefully more people will start wearing their masks again, or at least learn to social distance better.

[Takoma11]

My mother was teacher, and Hubby and I were going through some of her things recently, and we started talking about how hard it must be to be a teacher nowadays. It's hard enough under normal circumstances, but now, it's not just the students that you have to deal with, but the parents too. There's no consistency in the rules, so every school district seems to be doing things differently. Some parents get angry because they want their kid to wear a mask and be safe from COVID, and other parents get angry because they don't want their kid to have to wear a mask. There's just no way to please everyone, and with most kids still not being able to get vaccinated, nobody is safe. :rolleyes:

I think that parents also have it hard right now, so I try to be sympathetic. Though this one parent (not one of mine, thank goodness, but I had his kid last year and knew that they were a handful) came in and just SCREAMED at my principal. It was awful. (And he's a police officer! With that temper, yeesh!). He kept saying "Are you or are you not in charge of this facility?!" as if our principal has the latitude to overrule county and state policies about how to handle close contacts.

I feel especially sorry for single parents right now. Last year I had a parent who was a single mother, raising three kids with no help, and the child I was teaching of hers had serious special needs. The only person she had to supervise him was her 17 year old son (who honestly tried his best, but this child needed adult professional support). She was really responsive if I would text her, but what could she do? Not work? Pay for child care?

Some parents protested at our county recently saying masks are like "muzzles." My main reaction was, um, I don't think it's the kids who need muzzles. And if you think it's appropriate to tell me I have to teach in a room with 24 unvaccinated, unmasked kiddos, think again.

Generally, though, my kids' parents have been pretty understanding and I think that most of them at least understand that teachers are not the ones making county and state policies.

[gbgoodies]

I think that parents also have it hard right now, so I try to be sympathetic. Though this one parent (not one of mine, thank goodness, but I had his kid last year and knew that they were a handful) came in and just SCREAMED at my principal. It was awful. (And he's a police officer! With that temper, yeesh!). He kept saying "Are you or are you not in charge of this facility?!" as if our principal has the latitude to overrule county and state policies about how to handle close contacts.

I feel especially sorry for single parents right now. Last year I had a parent who was a single mother, raising three kids with no help, and the child I was teaching of hers had serious special needs. The only person she had to supervise him was her 17 year old son (who honestly tried his best, but this child needed adult professional support). She was really responsive if I would text her, but what could she do? Not work? Pay for child care?

Some parents protested at our county recently saying masks are like "muzzles." My main reaction was, um, I don't think it's the kids who need muzzles. And if you think it's appropriate to tell me I have to teach in a room with 24 unvaccinated, unmasked kiddos, think again.

Generally, though, my kids' parents have been pretty understanding and I think that most of them at least understand that teachers are not the ones making county and state policies.


I'm glad to hear that you're not having too many problems with the parents. Every time I hear a story on the news about a crazy parent arguing with a teacher, or even worse, attacking a teacher, over the masks rules, it makes me glad that I don't have kids. It's bad enough having to worry about your kid's health during the pandemic, but I can't imagine the idea of having to send your kids into those types of toxic situations.

[Takoma11]

I'm glad to hear that you're not having too many problems with the parents. Every time I hear a story on the news about a crazy parent arguing with a teacher, or even worse, attacking a teacher, over the masks rules, it makes me glad that I don't have kids. It's bad enough having to worry about your kid's health during the pandemic, but I can't imagine the idea of having to send your kids into those types of toxic situations.

Yes, I have an acquaintance who has three children who are immunocompromised, and it has been really hard for them. Out of caution, they really can't go anywhere unless they know that everyone will be masked and/or vaccinated.

[gbgoodies]

Yes, I have an acquaintance who has three children who are immunocompromised, and it has been really hard for them. Out of caution, they really can't go anywhere unless they know that everyone will be masked and/or vaccinated.


That must be very hard on them. I really wish that some of these unvaccinated people would stop making this a political thing, and just try to understand that this is about people's health, and for some people, it's literally a matter of life or death.

[Takoma11]

That must be very hard on them. I really wish that some of these unvaccinated people would stop making this a political thing, and just try to understand that this is about people's health, and for some people, it's literally a matter of life or death.

That's the part that continues to just kill me. The idea that someone else's life/health is worth less than your own comfort.

I'm vaccinated and I've had my booster, but I continue to mask in part to put others at ease. When you see a stranger out and about (in the grocery store, in a waiting room), you have no way of knowing if they are vaccinated. So by mildly inconveniencing myself, I reduce the stress on others who cannot vaccinate or who are more vulnerable to infection.

[gbgoodies]

That's the part that continues to just kill me. The idea that someone else's life/health is worth less than your own comfort.

I'm vaccinated and I've had my booster, but I continue to mask in part to put others at ease. When you see a stranger out and about (in the grocery store, in a waiting room), you have no way of knowing if they are vaccinated. So by mildly inconveniencing myself, I reduce the stress on others who cannot vaccinate or who are more vulnerable to infection.


I agree with you 100%. I don't understand why some people are so stubborn, (and inconsiderate), that they're refusing to do something as simple as getting a free vaccine. Even if they think that the whole thing is overblown, or even those people who think it's a hoax, (and I don't understand how anyone can believe that at this point, but apparently some people still do), why wouldn't people err on the side of caution, rather than taking the risk that they could be wrong? They're being stubborn, and people are dying. :rolleyes:

[Captain Steel]

Maybe I can shed some insight.

First, I am pro-vaccine, but anti-mandate.

Initially, the scientific community & the government sold the public on the idea I like to sum up as "Can't get it, can't spread it."

In other words the general consensus given to the public was the vaccine provided nearly complete immunity and once vaccinated, people could return to a "normal" life.

This turned out to be untrue.

Soon, the vaccinated were told they could not return to normal - they should continue distancing, isolating as much as possible, avoid gatherings & travel, wear masks (maybe even 2 or 3 at a time depending on who you were listening to) and may even require a booster in the near future.

Then it was revealed that vaccinated people could still contract the virus - in some cases in even higher viral loads than unvaccinated people and that they could spread those loads to others. So they could still carry the virus, still be contagious and be an even greater potential spreader than the unvaccinated. Then there were "breakthrough" cases - people who contracted & manifested the virus despite being fully vaccinated.

It seemed the vaccine lowered the severity of the virus for most who manifested it after being fully vaccinated, but there were still some cases where the virus took it's toll and even some rare deaths of vaccinated people from the virus (usually dependent on various health factors).

The point of all this was what we were first told about the vaccine's efficacy was wrong.

At the outset, the public was also sold the idea that the vaccine was almost completely safe.

Now, here's the crux - if what we were told about the vaccine's efficacy was wrong, then how do we know what we've been told about the vaccine's safety is not also wrong?

I'm not trying to throw doubt on the vaccine, just explaining the thought process behind WHY some people are still hesitant about getting the vaccine. And, I have to admit, there is some logic to it.

[gbgoodies]

Maybe I can shed some insight.

First, I am pro-vaccine, but anti-mandate.

Initially, the scientific community & the government sold the public on the idea I like to sum up as "Can't get it, can't spread it."

In other words the general consensus given to the public was the vaccine provided nearly complete immunity and once vaccinated, people could return to a "normal" life.

This turned out to be untrue.

Soon, the vaccinated were told they could not return to normal - they should continue distancing, isolating as much as possible, avoid gatherings & travel, wear masks (maybe even 2 or 3 at a time depending on who you were listening to) and may even require a booster in the near future.

Then it was revealed that vaccinated people could still contract the virus - in some cases in even higher viral loads than unvaccinated people and that they could spread those loads to others. So they could still carry the virus, still be contagious and be an even greater potential spreader than the unvaccinated. Then there were "breakthrough" cases - people who contracted & manifested the virus despite being fully vaccinated.

It seemed the vaccine lowered the severity of the virus for most who manifested it after being fully vaccinated, but there were still some cases where the virus took it's toll and even some rare deaths of vaccinated people from the virus (usually dependent on various health factors).

The point of all this was what we were first told about the vaccine's efficacy was wrong.

At the outset, the public was also sold the idea that the vaccine was almost completely safe.

Now, here's the crux - if what we were told about the vaccine's efficacy was wrong, then how do we know what we've been told about the vaccine's safety is not also wrong?

I'm not trying to throw doubt on the vaccine, just explaining the thought process behind WHY some people are still hesitant about getting the vaccine. And, I have to admit, there is some logic to it.


I understand what you're saying, but even if there's a chance that the vaccine isn't as safe as they said it was, it's sill safer than walking around unmasked and unvaccinated. People are at a much higher risk of getting a severe case of COVID, and possibly dying, without getting the vaccine, than the risk with the vaccine, or even from the vaccine.

[Takoma11]

Then it was revealed that vaccinated people could still contract the virus - in some cases in even higher viral loads than unvaccinated people and that they could spread those loads to others. So they could still carry the virus, still be contagious and be an even greater potential spreader than the unvaccinated. Then there were "breakthrough" cases - people who contracted & manifested the virus despite being fully vaccinated.

I have had many, many people in my low-vaccinated county tell me that "the vaccine doesn't do anything, I know so many people with the vaccine who got COVID". And they are always surprised when I tell them that in our county, 90% of the people with COVID are unvaccinated.

I am, as I've repeatedly said, very sympathetic to people who are afraid that there may be long-term side effects. There is literally no science about the 5, 10, or 15 year effects of the vaccine because that science cannot exist. So I get it. And in the back of my mind, I do feel a little worry about it, having myself received two doses and a booster.

But what I find entirely unacceptable is to not be vaccinated AND to willfully skirt around masking and distancing. The men who showed up to replace my HVAC system were unvaccinated, and they were all going to just walk into my house unmasked. To me, that is gross behavior. My sympathy for vaccine hesitancy ends when that same person engages in behavior that endangers others.

[bosbojasi3]

I'm going to get vaccinated tomorrow. Fear is present. Have you been vaccinated? How does it feel?

[The Rodent]

I'm going to get vaccinated tomorrow. Fear is present. Have you been vaccinated? How does it feel?

Had both of my jabs. I had the Pfizer.
First one was ok. Dead arm kicked in about an hour after I had it, and lasted around 2 hours.
After that, all my lymph nodes swelled up and all my joints, elbows, knees etc were sore for about 24 hours.

Second jab I felt rough for about a week.
Not flu symptoms... but it felt like I'd recovered from flu.
You know that kinda groggy feeling you get after you've gotten over something?

It's different for everyone though.

[Takoma11]

I'm going to get vaccinated tomorrow. Fear is present. Have you been vaccinated? How does it feel?

For me it was a sore arm (worse than a flu shot, not as bad as my tetanus shot) and nothing else with both shots and my booster.

But reactions seem to range from basically nothing to "hit by a truck". You'll get a paper that tells you what you can do to help (like for the injection site or which medications you can take for symptoms).

Good luck!

[ynwtf]

Second shot just made me tired. As Rodent described, I felt like I was getting over something like a bad flu but never any symptoms of a flu. Just easy to exhaustion and tired for maybe two weeks that sloooowly tapered off to mostly normal a few weeks after that. I never felt sick, got a fever nor did I have chills or any other sickly feeling. Just got tired.

[John McClane]

Exactly 12 hrs after my shot I shook from head to toe. I went to bed early and the next morning felt like I had fought a drunker version of myself

[Miss Vicky]

There is literally no science about the 5, 10, or 15 year effects of the vaccine because that science cannot exist.

I worried about this at first too - and even now the concern isn't completely removed - but the thing is, long-term effects of the vaccine won't make any difference if I don't survive this pandemic. Also, we do know that the vaccine greatly reduces the risk of severe illness and that Covid itself can have some very serious and debilitating long-term effects. People focus too much on whether or not the virus will kill you, and not enough on its potential to disable you for life. On top of that, we also know that surviving one bout of Covid, even without serious long-term effects, does not guarantee that you won't get it again or that you'll survive a second bout. So while I have a little bit of sympathy for the people afraid of the vaccine, I absolutely think it's foolish for them to continue to let that fear prevent them from getting it.

I'm going to get vaccinated tomorrow. Fear is present. Have you been vaccinated? How does it feel?

I've had three doses of the Pfizer vaccine. After the first shot, my arm hurt a lot and I felt tired. The pain lasted several days. After the second shot, my arm hurt quite a bit, but not as bad as the first time and the pain didn't last as long.

I got my booster on the same day I got my flu shot. They injected the Covid shot into my right arm and the flu shot into my left arm. Both arms were pretty sore the day of the shot and very sore the day after. After that, my left arm was completely fine and my right arm only hurt if I touched the injection site. The pain at the injection site lasted another two days.

[Takoma11]

I worried about this at first too - and even now the concern isn't completely removed - but the thing is, long-term effects of the vaccine won't make any difference if I don't survive this pandemic. Also, we do know that the vaccine greatly reduces the risk of severe illness and that Covid itself can have some very serious and debilitating long-term effects. People focus too much on whether or not the virus will kill you, and not enough on its potential to disable you for life. On top of that, we also know that surviving one bout of Covid, even without serious long-term effects, does not guarantee that you won't get it again or that you'll survive a second bout. So while I have a little bit of sympathy for the people afraid of the vaccine, I absolutely think it's foolish for them to continue to let that fear prevent them from getting it.

I agree, which is why I myself am vaccinated and believe it is the right course of action. Could the vaccine potentially have long term side-effects? Yes. But are people definitely dying of it right now? Yes.

I got my booster on the same day I got my flu shot. They injected the Covid shot into my right arm and the flu shot into my left arm. Both arms were pretty sore the day of the shot and very sore the day after. After that, my left arm was completely fine and my right arm only hurt if I touched the injection site. The pain at the injection site lasted another two days.

Same!! Only I got the COVID in my left arm and the flu shot in my right. I actually had a bruise where I got the COVID booster, I think from the nurse just jabbing me a bit too hard.

[The Rodent]

I actually had a bruise where I got the COVID booster, I think from the nurse just jabbing me a bit too hard.

I guess you could say she was...
https://c.tenor.com/5SKFoefQUjIAAAAM/yeahhhhh-shades-on.gif
A naughty nurse...

[Stirchley]

Maybe I can shed some insight.

First, I am pro-vaccine, but anti-mandate.



I’m sorry, but this seems so very childish.

[Austruck]

I’m sorry, but this seems so very childish.

Not to me. I'm the same way. I've been vaccinated (and had the booster), and I'm fine with that. But I don't want to see anyone lose a job over not getting the vaccine, except in certain lines of work like healthcare.

[Stirchley]

Not to me. I'm the same way. I've been vaccinated (and had the booster), and I'm fine with that. But I don't want to see anyone lose a job over not getting the vaccine, except in certain lines of work like healthcare.

Their choice. They won’t lose their job if they get vaccinated.

Very divisive subject & that’s all I’m gonna say.

[Captain Steel]

I’m sorry, but this seems so very childish.

I could provide reasons, but I'm afraid it would be construed as "political".

I'll just say that you catch more flies with sugar than with vinegar.

What drives a lot of people to rebel or resist is the simple act of telling them they must.

And forcing people to choose between feeding their children and a government mandate is not a reasonable choice, rather, as I heard a pro athlete say last night, "It is not a choice, it is an ultimatum."

And there is a vindictiveness to these mandates: they are removing unemployment insurance (U.I.) benefits from people who are fired over the mandate. Why would this be? U.I. is a system workers pay into during their entire working life - this is their insurance policy, but it is being denied as an added level of spitefulness. Same with health insurance - many are losing it when fired over the mandate (kind of ironic since the whole issue is a health issue).

And many such as ER doctors & nurses (who were all hailed as "heroes" last year) have reported they are told they will be blacklisted after being fired as a condition of the mandate so they cannot even seek new employment at any other hospitals or in the future.

This mandate is destroying the lives of people, many of whom have had & recovered from the virus and thus have natural immunity, or those who have health concerns or medical exemptions, and may be destroying the lives of people who are perfectly willing to practice mitigation procedures but may never even contract or carry the virus themselves.

Not to mention what it's doing to society as there are now increasing mass shortages of first responders: police, firefighters, EMT's, doctors, nurses, ambulance drivers, soldiers, national guard, various military personnel & hospital staff, utility workers and the list goes on & on.

The very thing the initial Covid-19 lockdowns were supposed to prevent (Hospitals becoming overwhelmed) is now occurring not because of the virus, but because of the mandates.

There could have been many alternatives to firings that would have been more compassionate, less destructive, less divisive, more cost effective and less dangerous than trying to find immediate (and potentially unqualified) replacements for people with decades of experience or suffering sudden, severe staff shortages in the most critical areas.

[Citizen Rules]

Captain Steel I repped your last covid post, not because I'm anti-vax, I'm not...but because I appreciate the way you calmly and intelligently explained your position and made logical points while keeping it friendly too. Good post, even though I'm mostly on the other side of the fence.

[Captain Steel]

Captain Steel I repped your last covid post, not because I'm anti-vax, I'm not...but because I appreciate the way you calmly and intelligently explained your position and made logical points while keeping it friendly too. Good post, even though I'm mostly on the other side of the fence.

Thanks Rules. I also am not anti-vax, as I explained yesterday, only anti-mandate.

The gov should have continued on with messages that all of us will beat this together, we're all on the same team, we are a united country and our common enemy is the virus, it's humanity against the virus, we ARE going to get through this and we will win in 2022 and the best & quickest way to do it... the ONLY way to keep the virus from continuing any longer than it has to... to help yourself and everyone else is to get the vaccine.

I think such messages in a spirit of unity would have been far more effective (and, of course, we'll never get 100% compliance no matter what), but the mandates were just the worst direction to take.

It's simple psychology - the moment you tell everyone they HAVE to (or threaten their livelihoods, income & careers - which is even worse) - is the moment a certain percentage will oppose it just because they resist the government telling them they HAVE to and become angry & adversarial over having their jobs threatened.

Already the mandates have created division, setting one group against another, encouraging a caste system of the "clean" and the "unclean", created resistance, solidified those already in opposition and pushed over the edge many who were just on the fence.

They are literally destroying lives (as I outlined in my last post) while endangering society with staff shortages of our most essential workers in hospitals and many other areas.

[Citizen Rules]

Captain, I said this once before but let me run this by you. What would you think if there was no vac mandates but the next stimulus check was tied to getting or having been vaccinated.

*Be vaccinated, get a 1000 bucks!* that type of idea.

No idea is 100% perfect of course, but that idea would have gotten more people vaccinated with less division in the country...and I really feel a big division is growing over this and that's not a good thing.

[Captain Steel]

Captain, I said this once before but let me run this by you. What would you think if there was no vac mandates but the next stimulus check was tied to getting or having been vaccinated.

*Be vaccinated, get a 1000 bucks!* that type of idea.

No idea is 100% perfect of course, but that idea would have gotten more people vaccinated with less division in the country...and I really feel a big division is growing over this and that's not a good thing.

I actually talked about this (over on the Soapbox) coincidentally.

I wasn't aware any incentives might be tied to stimulus checks so that's news to me.

But I'd heard Biden was toying with the idea of cash rewards to people getting the vax as far back as last spring.

My only problem with that rumor being exposed is now lots of people are holding off getting the vaccine JUST to see if there will be cash payouts - and don't want to miss out.

And the other problem is people already vaxxed will want reparations... "Hold outs are getting paid to take the vaccine, while I was a guinea pig for free?" And I could understand that attitude too.

I'm not opposed to the idea, but it is problematic.

[Takoma11]

Captain, I said this once before but let me run this by you. What would you think if there was no vac mandates but the next stimulus check was tied to getting or having been vaccinated.

*Be vaccinated, get a 1000 bucks!* that type of idea.

No idea is 100% perfect of course, but that idea would have gotten more people vaccinated with less division in the country...and I really feel a big division is growing over this and that's not a good thing.

Many places did this: for example, drawing a name every day for a month of people who were vaccinated (including before the promotion began, so early vaccinated people didn't miss out) to win several thousand dollars.

I also feel like . . . there were a LOT of incentives for a very long while. Different places were giving out cash, prizes, tickets, etc.

[Captain Steel]

Captain, I said this once before but let me run this by you. What would you think if there was no vac mandates but the next stimulus check was tied to getting or having been vaccinated.

*Be vaccinated, get a 1000 bucks!* that type of idea.

No idea is 100% perfect of course, but that idea would have gotten more people vaccinated with less division in the country...and I really feel a big division is growing over this and that's not a good thing.

Sorry, Rules, I misread your post the first time.

I think it's a neat idea (especially the part about no mandates = the "carrot" not the "stick")
but would still have the same problems I mentioned before.

Or heck, avoid any "reparations" problems and just pay everyone who has already gotten or who gets the vaccine in another stimulus check (which I think is what you were saying).

Problems or not, it would be a far better and less destructive & divisive solution than what is resulting from the mandates. Probably something they should have considered before making mandates.

Again, there were a whole lot of things they could have done - but they chose the worst course of action that will only guarantee a now very angry percentage of the population opposing the vaccine just on principal over the mandates.

[Captain Steel]

Since we're now actively discussing the mandates (I will still attempt not getting "political" if it's possible to debate government mandates without doing so) - I also wonder if we are not on the cusp of herd immunity?

I've pointed out many times on this thread how long the Spanish flu (of 1918 - 1920) lasted with no vaccines, no treatments & no modern medicine... and how right now we are only about 4 months away from that same timeframe but WITH vaccines, treatments, & the advances of modern medicine.

Now, I realize there are variables - it's not the same virus, the world's population is many many times greater than a century ago, but our modern vaccines & treatments should help even out these variables. (There was no vaccine for the Spanish flu - yet it just "went away" after 2 years & 2 moths... and hundreds of millions of lives.)

So what I'm getting at... after all the destruction of people's lives via these mandates, what if within 4 months, early next year, the virus drops off to minimal levels - then what happens?

Are apologies offered? Are people hired back (remember, these mandates don't mean lay offs, they are firings - which are usually irreparable). Is the blacklisting of people somehow retracted? Are reparations made somehow?

This is another reason why mandates NOW is such a bad idea, because we may be right around the corner to this crisis ending (but then again... we may not.)

[Takoma11]

This is another reason why mandates NOW is such a bad idea, because we may be right around the corner to this crisis ending (but then again... we may not.)

I don't know. I've been hearing that we're "around the corner" for over a year now. Every time the numbers go down, people go "YAY IT'S OVER" and take their masks off and have parties and then the numbers go up again.

And herd immunity is all relative. In my county, only 60% of the eligible population is vaccinated. And one group (people over the age of 65) really skew those numbers because there was such an efficient push in vaccinating elderly people here. I would wager that the percent of vaccinated people who are "out and about" (for example, the parents of my students) is much lower, maybe 40-50%. I would imagine that less than half of my students will be vaccinated once children are eligible. This is in stark contrast to my sister's school (in a different county) where vaccination numbers are much higher and many of her students over the age of 12 have gotten their vaccines.

My school's numbers are bad enough (infected students and staff/teachers) that the health department is actively beginning to question if we are at the center of an outbreak.

At a certain point, having a significant number of unvaccinated people in your workplace/hospital/office building makes that place a more dangerous place for everyone to be. And I find it particularly unfair to people who genuinely cannot get the vaccine. How do you make a safe situation? Take the example of my school. Absent a mandate, how do you make my workplace safe to take masks off when several of my colleagues will not vaccinate (or even mask properly)? There is no way to avoid having teachers and students in the same space. I obviously don't want to wreck my colleagues' lives, but at the same time they are the ones actively perpetuating this problem in our school and it's incredibly disruptive to the learning of the students.

[Captain Terror]

Not to mention what it's doing to society as there are now increasing mass shortages of first responders: police, firefighters, EMT's, doctors, nurses, ambulance drivers, soldiers, national guard, various military personnel & hospital staff, utility workers and the list goes on & on

You know what else is causing mass shortages? COVID.

COVID is leading cause of death among police officers (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/covid-19-police-officers-leading-cause-death/)

[Takoma11]

You know what else is causing mass shortages? COVID.

COVID is leading cause of death among police officers (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/covid-19-police-officers-leading-cause-death/)

And COVID-related (not vaccine-related) stress. My friends who are EMTs (and one in particular in New Orleans) has been dealing with a ton of co-workers resigning simply out of the stress and trauma of trying to function inside of an overburdened system. My New Orleans friend wrote that she had to leave people in hospital chairs instead of beds and that she was sure that several people she had to walk away from (to go to her next call) were probably going to die just out of not getting care in time.

[Captain Terror]

I don't know. I've been hearing that we're "around the corner" for over a year now. Every time the numbers go down, people go "YAY IT'S OVER" and take their masks off and have parties and then the numbers go up again.

Yes, our focus is not "have we eliminated the virus" but rather "when can I take my mask off" or "when can I go to a football game".
WHEN WE ELIMINATE THE VIRUS is the answer to those questions. Yes, I'm oversimplifying it for the sake of a rant, but my point is we're too eager to relax the rules every time numbers go down.

As for vaccine hesitancy, I know exactly one person who has expressed to me a sincere concern about the safety of the vaccine. She has no science background, and doesn't seem to question what's in the Taco Bell she eats every night, so I don't know where this hesitancy is coming from, but whatever. If everyone expressed themselves the way she does I might be more sympathetic. But all the other unvaccinated folks I know are of the "you can't make me" club. It's hard for me to keep my patience about it all.

And I'm envious whenever you mention that your county is "only" 60% vaccinated. I wish.
My county/parish is doing ok, but my job is in another parish that's well below 50%.

[ynwtf]

Fully vaccinated in my state: 44.8%
My county: 32.8%

Numbers are slowly ticking up though and I don't think we're dead last in the states list anymore.

[doubledenim]

As much as I love you as much as one can an internet friend, I always root for Alabama to be last.

You know, “Please don’t let NC be last. *Jim Gaffigan voice* “Has everybody forgot about the bathroom stuff, yet?”

[ynwtf]

As much as I love you as much as one can an internet friend, I always root for Alabama to be last.

You know, “Please don’t let NC be last. *Jim Gaffigan voice* “Has everybody forgot about the bathroom stuff, yet?”



lol. There's always south Carolina and Mississippi I guess.

[Takoma11]

Fully vaccinated in my state: 44.8%
My county: 32.8%

Numbers are slowly ticking up though and I don't think we're dead last in the states list anymore.

Woof.

[Takoma11]

Yes, our focus is not "have we eliminated the virus" but rather "when can I take my mask off" or "when can I go to a football game".
WHEN WE ELIMINATE THE VIRUS is the answer to those questions.

Someone said to me the other day that we don't have to worry about vaccines because pretty soon everyone will have had it and they'll have antibodies. I couldn't even respond.

Like, you do realize that "everyone will have it" will involve a portion of those people dying or having long-term health ramifications, right? And that you can get COVID again even if you've had it and recovered?

[Captain Steel]

I don't think eliminating the virus 100% is a realistic expectation.

Once in a while we still see cases or even flare ups of viruses / diseases thought eliminated long ago and for which vaccines have made a thing of the past.

Some projections predict Covid-19 may be with us for the long haul in some form, even if the vast majority are vaccinated (and we've already seen more recently that even vaccinated people can still contract it, spread it, manifest it and in rare cases even die from it).

So it's likely Covid-19 will be with us for the foreseeable future, but hopefully in a less virulent form due to the combination of vaccines & natural herd immunity, and hopefully it will eventually sputter out like the "Spanish Flu" (- which itself never fully "went away," rather it mutated into other viruses, some of which became indistinguishable from the common flu and others which ended up causing other pandemics many decades later).
https://www.history.com/news/1918-flu-pandemic-never-ended

A more realistic goal is to reduce cases to a point where Covid drops below typical flu numbers - and the common flu itself is nothing to sneeze at: taking between 60 to 80 thousand lives in the U.S. each year (yet we've never closed school's nationwide for the flu despite the flu being far more dangerous to children than Covid-19, or had economic shutdowns, business lockdowns, mask mandates, vaccine mandates, politically-based banning of potential treatments, or changed election practices over even the most severe flu outbreaks).

[Stirchley]

Captain Steel I repped your last covid post, not because I'm anti-vax, I'm not...but because I appreciate the way you calmly and intelligently explained your position and made logical points while keeping it friendly too. Good post, even though I'm mostly on the other side of the fence.

Agreed & I repped his post too though I’m not saying anything else on the subject.

[Citizen Rules]

Regarding governmental covid-vaccine mandates and health care workers...

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't health workers (hospital staff, medics, health care providers) always been required to be vaccinated for communicable diseases?

[Stirchley]

Regarding governmental covid-vaccine mandates and health care workers...

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't health workers (hospital staff, medics, health care providers) always been required to be vaccinated for communicable diseases?

One would think so, but haven’t a clue. Good question.

[Takoma11]

Regarding governmental covid-vaccine mandates and health care workers...

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't health workers (hospital staff, medics, health care providers) always been required to be vaccinated for communicable diseases?

It's certainly true that children have to have certain vaccines in order to attend public school.

Co-worker said to me "It's wrong to tell anyone what they have to put in their body." I said, "But they all have to have all of these other vaccines to come to school. Do you think they shouldn't have to have those vaccines either?". She said "Well that's different."

So it really comes down to people not wanting it because it's new.

But then that gets into a gray area of how long a vaccine is out before it's okay to make it mandatory. 3 years? 5? 10? 15?

[Citizen Rules]

...So it really comes down to people not wanting it because it's new.

But then that gets into a gray area of how long a vaccine is out before it's okay to make it mandatory. 3 years? 5? 10? 15?I'm sure there are those against covid vaccinations because it's a new vaccine and they are cautious.

But I got believe a lot of the more vocal anti-vaxxers see it as a case of 'the government ain't telling me what to do!'...And sadly that's thanks to politicization by political party x, that says political party y is trying to control you and take away your freedoms. It just boggles the mind the amount of misinformation people will choose to believe.

[CringeFest]

I'm sure there are those against covid vaccinations because it's a new vaccine and they are cautious.

But I got believe a lot of the more vocal anti-vaxxers see it as a case of 'the government ain't telling me what to do!'...And sadly that's thanks to politicization by political party x, that says political party y is trying to control you and take away your freedoms. It just boggles the mind the amount of misinformation people will choose to believe.

I think a lot of delusions are comforting in a way...it may seem that it's absurd for people to want to believe in these anti-gov conspiracy theories, but when i was younger i was a 9/11 truther, part of the believing was taking pleasure in some sort of "dangerous" or "rebellious" position against the government. Also, giving conspiracy theorists the benefit of the doubt...so much stuff comes from a television anyways, how can you disprove things?

[Takoma11]

I'm sure there are those against covid vaccinations because it's a new vaccine and they are cautious.

But I got believe a lot of the more vocal anti-vaxxers see it as a case of 'the government ain't telling me what to do!'...And sadly that's thanks to politicization by political party x, that says political party y is trying to control you and take away your freedoms. It just boggles the mind the amount of misinformation people will choose to believe.

I think that the COVID vaccine exists at a (horrible) perfect storm of three different groups:

Group A: Vaccines cause autism/other health issues
Group B: The government can't tell me what to do!!
Group C: If the opposing political party wants me to do it, no way!

I have a massage client who is convinced that his son has autism because of vaccines. And yet he (the client) is, in my opinion, also on the autistic spectrum, and also he had his son at a much older age, and paternal age is correlated with higher incidence of autism. When he talks about his family, there is a really clear pattern of mental health issues and developmental delays. We're talking multiple family members across many generations.

I think that people believe what they want to believe. I know that I have to fight my own confirmation bias, and it's not always comfortable to do so. And if you're in enough of an echo chamber, some really out there ideas might just feel like "common sense".

[doubledenim]

The only thing I believe in are cryptids. I support their right to choice of vaccination status.

[Takoma11]

The only thing I believe in are cryptids. I support their right to choice of vaccination status.

The "Nessie Says No" campaign is really taking social media by storm.

[Citizen Rules]

A 3in1 post and then I have to get back to work, really I should:DI think a lot of delusions are comforting in a way...Absolutely. And IMO the more benign ones are fine. But the ones that increase mistrust and paranoia in society, that ain't good.

..I think that people believe what they want to believe...The power of self delusion is scary. Just think, at one time people so believed in witch conspiracies that they burnt innocent people in fire. What was the saying about 'monsters from the id'?

The only thing I believe in are cryptids. I support their right to choice of vaccination status.Now that's something I'm interested in. Maybe a thread for that?

[Stirchley]

But then that gets into a gray area of how long a vaccine is out before it's okay to make it mandatory. 3 years? 5? 10? 15?

What did they do back in the day with polio shots? Surely they didn’t wait a year or so to make it mandatory? From stories I hear parents were so very glad & relieved to have their children innoculated against polio.

Maybe iron lungs & leg braces were sufficient incentives back then, but surely seeing COVID babies intubated in the ICU would make an anti-vaxxer reconsider his or her stance?

[Takoma11]

What did they do back in the day with polio shots? Surely they didn’t wait a year or so to make it mandatory? From stories I hear parents were so very glad & relieved to have their children innoculated against polio.

Maybe iron lungs & leg braces were sufficient incentives back then, but surely seeing COVID babies intubated in the ICU would make an anti-vaxxer reconsider his or her stance?

I asked my parents about this, and what they said was that the damage from polio was so much more visible that it really did away with a lot of hesitancy. You were seeing limps, legs in braces, and even people in iron lungs.

I think that the lingering effects of COVID (setting aside the deaths) are less "visible". It's people with a sort of chronic fatigue. It's people who still look healthy, but there are indications of heart damage.

[Citizen Rules]

I remember getting the polio vaccine in grade school, at least I hope this is accurate....it was a vaccine on a sugar cube that was placed on your tongue. Unless it was some other vaccine, kind of hard to remember but I do remember it was a big deal and done right in the classroom.

[Stirchley]

I asked my parents about this, and what they said was that the damage from polio was so much more visible that it really did away with a lot of hesitancy. You were seeing limps, legs in braces, and even people in iron lungs.

I think that the lingering effects of COVID (setting aside the deaths) are less "visible". It's people with a sort of chronic fatigue. It's people who still look healthy, but there are indications of heart damage.

Very good points. Didn’t think of the visibility issue before. Who the heck would want their kid in an iron lung.

I remember getting the polio vaccine in grade school, at least I hope this is accurate....it was a vaccine on a sugar cube that was placed on your tongue. Unless it was some other vaccine, kind of hard to remember but I do remember it was a big deal and done right in the classroom.

Don’t remember this in England, but who the heck can remember these things.

Seems to me - somewhere - I have remains of a circular vaccination site. What was this do you think?

[Citizen Rules]

Very good points. Didn’t think of the visibility issue before. Who the heck would want their kid in an iron lung.



Don’t remember this in England, but who the heck can remember these things.

Seems to me - somewhere - I have remains of a circular vaccination site. What was this do you think?I asked my wife about when she got the polio vaccine and she mentioned it was a multi needle unit that was used. Maybe the sugar cube I got in school was a booster? or maybe for something else? It was a long time ago!

[Austruck]

Seems to me - somewhere - I have remains of a circular vaccination site. What was this do you think?

We have those round vaccination scars on our upper arms here (those of us in my age group). It was a sort of air gun that shot it into us, no actual needles that I can recall. I think we were around sixth grade (age 11-ish), so early 1970s. We all headed to the gymnasium by classroom to get the vaccine.

It was the smallpox vaccine.

[Austruck]

Here's some info on it and that round scar:

https://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/what-to-know-smallpox-vaccination-scar

[Takoma11]

Don’t remember this in England, but who the heck can remember these things.

Seems to me - somewhere - I have remains of a circular vaccination site. What was this do you think?

Could it have been a smallpox vaccine?

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/newsletters/article/when-vaccination-was-a-badge-of-honor-20210630

[Captain Steel]

It's certainly true that children have to have certain vaccines in order to attend public school.

Co-worker said to me "It's wrong to tell anyone what they have to put in their body." I said, "But they all have to have all of these other vaccines to come to school. Do you think they shouldn't have to have those vaccines either?". She said "Well that's different."

So it really comes down to people not wanting it because it's new.

But then that gets into a gray area of how long a vaccine is out before it's okay to make it mandatory. 3 years? 5? 10? 15?

The difference is that vaccines kids get today have been around for decades.

Entire generations have grown old and died (of old age) who got those vaccines. So the understanding of their long term effects, side effects, potential allergic reactions and who can tolerate them is well established.

Covid-19 vaccines are literally still experimental. They broke records being developed (which I applaud) yet we still have no idea about long term effects or even short term effects.

The unprecedented speed with which they were developed & the fact that they've only been used less than a year adds to some people's hesitancy about them.

(And for some, the sudden turn around of some of our current leaders - the same exact ones who publicly declared they did NOT trust the vaccines due particularly to the speed with which they were developed - are now threatening people's jobs & careers if they DON'T take them REALLY adds to peoples' skepticism. Nothing breeds distrust more than hypocrisy compounded by sudden authoritarianism.)

Doctors are still not sure about the efficacy (as we've seen that some of their initial predictions were wrong) which makes people question their assurances about the full extent of the vaccines' safety.

[Takoma11]

The difference is that vaccines kids get today have been around for decades.

Entire generations have grown old and died (of old age) who got those vaccines. So the understanding of their long term effects, side effects, potential allergic reactions and who can tolerate them is well established.

I totally understand all of this (and, again, I sympathize with the nervousness).

But I'm saying that it means the argument isn't "You can't tell people what to put in their body!!!!", it's "I am nervous about how new the vaccine is!"

The former is a very black and white issue: can a government force people to vaccinate and/or deny services (like public school) to people who won't?

But the latter is more of a gray area. At what point has a vaccine been out long enough that it's reasonable to consider it safe?

I think that separating these two viewpoints is important. And I think that people who are in the second camp realize that their complaint is more of a slippery slope, so they often misleadingly couch their concerns as the first.

[Citizen Rules]

I just went grocery shopping today and of course there were some who weren't masked...and we do have a state wide mask mandate in effect. It's just a hunch but I bet the person who would violate the state mask mandates and put others at risk, are the same ones who didn't get vaccinated in the first place.

[Takoma11]

I just went grocery shopping today and of course there were some who weren't masked...and we do have a state wide mask mandate in effect. It's just a hunch but I bet the person who would violate the state mask mandates and put others at risk, are the same ones who didn't get vaccinated in the first place.

Yes, and this is the part that has been the most upsetting thing for me.

I have lots of sympathy for someone who is genuinely scared of the vaccine, but who then masks religiously, keeps a distance, makes others aware of their unvaccinated status before being indoors together, etc. But my sense is that these people are few and far between.

Again, those HVAC workers were going to walk into my house (inside with my mom who is a bone marrow transplant survivor and has other medical issues that make her vulnerable) totally unmasked and didn't disclose their status until they were specifically asked.

[CringeFest]

The difference is that vaccines kids get today have been around for decades.

Entire generations have grown old and died (of old age) who got those vaccines. So the understanding of their long term effects, side effects, potential allergic reactions and who can tolerate them is well established.

Covid-19 vaccines are literally still experimental. They broke records being developed (which I applaud) yet we still have no idea about long term effects or even short term effects.

The unprecedented speed with which they were developed & the fact that they've only been used less than a year adds to some people's hesitancy about them.

(And for some, the sudden turn around of some of our current leaders - the same exact ones who publicly declared they did NOT trust the vaccines due particularly to the speed with which they were developed - are now threatening people's jobs & careers if they DON'T take them REALLY adds to peoples' skepticism. Nothing breeds distrust more than hypocrisy compounded by sudden authoritarianism.)

Doctors are still not sure about the efficacy (as we've seen that some of their initial predictions were wrong) which makes people question their assurances about the full extent of the vaccines' safety.


I think overall the odds of being hurt by vaccines are incredibly low. However, anything that's poorly understood being administered should ALWAYS come with the option to opt out, and all the cries to pressure people to do these things will backfire.


In the 70s, there was this flu vaccine that caused paralysis in a small percentage of people in the US. It personally gives me faith that harm from vaccines are unlikely, but at the same time being paralyzed would be really awful.

[Citizen Rules]

Yes, and this is the part that has been the most upsetting thing for me.

I have lots of sympathy for someone who is genuinely scared of the vaccine, but who then masks religiously, keeps a distance, makes others aware of their unvaccinated status before being indoors together, etc. But my sense is that these people are few and far between.

Again, those HVAC workers were going to walk into my house (inside with my mom who is a bone marrow transplant survivor and has other medical issues that make her vulnerable) totally unmasked and didn't disclose their status until they were specifically asked.The same sort of situation happened this summer. We were helping this elderly lady to move out of her house. The moving men came with their big truck and a crew of four. The owner and a couple of the movers had face mask on from the get go. But there was this one guy who just started to waltz right into the house, without a mask. He was asked to please put on a mask, and he did so. This also was during state mandate mask wearing. I swear some people's lack of regard for the law and for other people's rights are downright depressing.

[Captain Steel]

I think overall the odds of being hurt by vaccines are incredibly low. However, anything that's poorly understood being administered should ALWAYS come with the option to opt out, and all the cries to pressure people to do these things will backfire.


In the 70s, there was this flu vaccine that caused paralysis in a small percentage of people in the US. It personally gives me faith that harm from vaccines are unlikely, but at the same time being paralyzed would be really awful.

Agree.

[CringeFest]

Agree.

to be more thorough than i was before, i think forcing people to do anything rarely has long term benefits. Look at the school system.

[Captain Steel]

Yes, and this is the part that has been the most upsetting thing for me.

I have lots of sympathy for someone who is genuinely scared of the vaccine, but who then masks religiously, keeps a distance, makes others aware of their unvaccinated status before being indoors together, etc. But my sense is that these people are few and far between.


This kind of describes me. I believe I had the virus and thus have antibodies.

I do wear the mask where it's required just to not get hassled, and because it makes others more comfortable, but not because I truly believe it does a whole lot to protect me or protect others from me.

I have to go back to what Fauci said early on before he started flip-flopping about masks: at most, masks may stop droplets, otherwise they do little to stop viral spread.

My words = The germs are microscopic, so a mask's effectiveness is dependent on the vehicle for the germs - masks will stop solid liquids, but not aerosols propelled by force (such as produced by hard coughs & sneezes which, after tactile spread, are considered the second most common form of spread while droplets - the one thing masks stop - are a distant third since they are usually pulled to the ground by gravity before they can get in another's orifices).

Another thing Fauci said early on was that since masks did little to mitigate viral spread they had become something more for show to let others know you taking the virus seriously (some might call this "virtue signaling" or "theater").

Of course he later contradicted or added to some of these statements to maintain his course along the prevailing political winds.

I practice distancing (I've always respected other's personal space - but this is a few extra steps back) - which is probably the single most effective mitigation practice after copious hand washing.

I have little contact with people except for trips to the supermarket (where I practice all these precautions). Most of my work these days is done outdoors and alone (I'm a freelance gardener / landscaper / clean-up guy).

[Stirchley]

We have those round vaccination scars on our upper arms here (those of us in my age group). It was a sort of air gun that shot it into us, no actual needles that I can recall. I think we were around sixth grade (age 11-ish), so early 1970s. We all headed to the gymnasium by classroom to get the vaccine.

It was the smallpox vaccine.

Yes, that’s what I thought.

Could it have been a smallpox vaccine?

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/newsletters/article/when-vaccination-was-a-badge-of-honor-20210630

Yes, tyvm.

[Jinnistan]

Oh, Joe Rogan strikes again!


Aaron Rodgers: "At the time, my plan was to say that I have been immunized. It wasn't some sort of ruse or lie, it was the truth."


Apparently not, Rodge! If it was the truth that you were "immunized", then you probably wouldn't have caught Covid. So let's be perfectly honest. You f***ed up. You didn't know what you were talking about, and you mistakenly thought you were immunized without any sort of actual medical assessment or diagnosis. Hell, you may not even be a doctor. Let's ask non-doctor Joe Rogan what he thinks. Oh, it looks like Joe Rogan's advice also got Joe Rogan infected? That wasn't your first clue weeks ago?


I don't even hate on Rodgers because of his traumatic brain injuries. What pisses me off is this doubling down on what is now objectively shown to be BS medical advice. Rodgers was wrong when he said he was immunized. Maybe not lying, but stupid. Just apologize for making a dumb mistake which put your collegues at risk. Why continue to push this pseudomedicine when it clearly failed you?


And a note about Big Pharma: Rodgers invoked the Big P while railing against the vaccines, but then he turned around and endorsed the use of monoclonal antibodies, which are laboratory cloned white blood cells. Made by? A publicly traded biotech corporation named Regeneron? Which costs about 2 grand per treatment? And the vaccines are free? Really sticking it to Big Pharma, pal.


Anyone else believe this horse****?

[Citizen Rules]

Anyone else believe this horse****?
...I can't answer, one would have to know who Joe Rogan and Aaron Rodgers are. I've never heard of them.

[Captain Steel]

...I can't answer, one would have to know who Joe Rogan and Aaron Rodgers are. I've never heard of them.

:D

[Citizen Rules]

:DHa, I still don't know.

[Wyldesyde19]

Oh, Joe Rogan strikes again!


Aaron Rodgers: "At the time, my plan was to say that I have been immunized. It wasn't some sort of ruse or lie, it was the truth."


Apparently not, Rodge! If it was the truth that you were "immunized", then you probably wouldn't have caught Covid. So let's be perfectly honest. You f***ed up. You didn't know what you were talking about, and you mistakenly thought you were immunized without any sort of actual medical assessment or diagnosis. Hell, you may not even be a doctor. Let's ask non-doctor Joe Rogan what he thinks. Oh, it looks like Joe Rogan's advice also got Joe Rogan infected? That wasn't your first clue weeks ago?


I don't even hate on Rodgers because of his traumatic brain injuries. What pisses me off is this doubling down on what is now objectively shown to be BS medical advice. Rodgers was wrong when he said he was immunized. Maybe not lying, but stupid. Just apologize for making a dumb mistake which put your collegues at risk. Why continue to push this pseudomedicine when it clearly failed you?


And a note about Big Pharma: Rodgers invoked the Big P while railing against the vaccines, but then he turned around and endorsed the use of monoclonal antibodies, which are laboratory cloned white blood cells. Made by? A publicly traded biotech corporation named Regeneron? Which costs about 2 grand per treatment? And the vaccines are free? Really sticking it to Big Pharma, pal.


Anyone else believe this horse****?
What’s worse is his interview earlier today where he admits he “may” have been misleading, but still double downs on his stance. Add to the fact he compared himself to MLK, and he obviously needs to just stop talking at this point and admit he made a mistake.

[Jinnistan]

Some fact-checking:



In other words the general consensus given to the public was the vaccine provided nearly complete immunity and once vaccinated, people could return to a "normal" life.

This turned out to be untrue.
The recent delta surge was not due to ineffective vaccines, but due to vaccine hesitancy. It was the latter unvaccinated population which accounted for the vast majority of hospitalizations, leading to reinstated mitigation necessities.


Then it was revealed that vaccinated people could still contract the virus - in some cases in even higher viral loads than unvaccinated people and that they could spread those loads to others. So they could still carry the virus, still be contagious and be an even greater potential spreader than the unvaccinated.
This is not true. First, the incidence of breakthrough infections for the vaccinated are far lower than covid infections in the unvaccinated. In breakthrough cases, studies have shown (https://www.ucdavis.edu/health/covid-19/news/viral-loads-similar-between-vaccinated-and-unvaccinated-people) there to be "no significant difference in viral load between vaccinated and unvaccinated people" infected with delta.


I'm not trying to throw doubt on the vaccine, just explaining the thought process behind WHY some people are still hesitant about getting the vaccine. And, I have to admit, there is some logic to it.
There's not much logic here. The fact that the vaccine is less than 100% effective, and that its effectiveness wanes over time, is hardly a comfortable excuse to not be vaccinated. It means that we need more vaccination, perhaps more often. It's the opposite of the logic that you're suggesting here.


This mandate is destroying the lives of people, many of whom have had & recovered from the virus and thus have natural immunity
"Natural immunity" is a canard. The antibody immunity from a covid infection also wanes over time, at approximately the same rate as immunity from the vaccines. Covid reinfections are likely within months of an initial infection (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/19/without-covid-19-jab-reinfection-may-occur-every-16-months-say-scientists), and to demonstrate (https://www.publicradiotulsa.org/local-regional/2021-09-24/covid-reinfections-have-jumped-300-since-may), "the rate of repeat cases is double the rate of breakthrough infections". The notion that this "natural immunity" from a covid infection provides greater protection than the vaccines has been thoroughly debunked.


Already the mandates have created division, setting one group against another
This division was "created" when the wearing of masks was politicized in the spring of 2020. The mandates wouldn't have been necessary if there wasn't already a deep-heeled resistence to mitigation measures to begin with.


I have to go back to what Fauci said early on before he started flip-flopping about masks: at most, masks may stop droplets, otherwise they do little to stop viral spread.

Another thing Fauci said early on was that since masks did little to mitigate viral spread they had become something more for show to let others know you taking the virus seriously (some might call this "virtue signaling" or "theater").

Of course he later contradicted or added to some of these statements to maintain his course along the prevailing political winds.
Fauci has frequently been misquoted and misattributed so it's best to be clear about what he actually said. When his emails were released earlier this year, there was a claim that he had admitted that masks were not effective. That's not true (https://apnews.com/article/fact-checking-436900978804). For the record (https://www.pnas.org/content/118/4/e2014564118), masks are indeed effective (https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2020/06/417906/still-confused-about-masks-heres-science-behind-how-face-masks-prevent). What Fauci said was the same thing that people have been saying, but which anti-maskers continue to fail to understand. Masks are only minimally effective in protecting the wearer (about 50-60%, which is still better than nothing). How masks are truly effective in preventing viral spread is that they stop the wearer's individual breath-droplets from becoming airborne, which is a much more effective mitigation than protecting from already airborne breath-droplets. This is why mask-effectiveness requires cooperation. This is what Fauci explained in his email, and what was explained to those who tried to use his email as a weapon against him and fellow mask-wearers. The masks prevent the droplets from getting in the air, not visa versa. Fauci has been consistent in recommending universal mask-wearing as soon as he learned that these droplets can hang in the air for up to 3 hours at a time. It's only been controversial for those who want to make it into a controversy.

[Jinnistan]

What’s worse is his interview earlier today where he admits he “may” have been misleading, but still double downs on his stance. Add to the fact he compared himself to MLK, and he obviously needs to just stop talking at this point and admit he made a mistake.
Yeah. It's our fault that his little homeopathic massage spa turned out to be bunk. Dude, you were wrong, and if you weren't, you wouldn't be sick right now.

[Wyldesyde19]

Yeah. It's our fault that his little homeopathic massage spa turned out to be bunk. Dude, you were wrong, and if you weren't, you wouldn't be sick right now.
It’s cool though. Because he’s not giving into the “woke” crowd. Like he’s owning them or something.
Whatever. What’s next? A “Let’s Go Brandon” decal on his uniform?

[Miss Vicky]

Masks are only minimally effective in protecting the wearer (about 50-60%, which is still better than nothing). How masks are truly effective in preventing viral spread is that they stop the wearer's individual breath-droplets from becoming airborne

Another thing that masks do, assuming masks are worn properly and consistently, is prevent the wearer from touching their nose and mouth with unwashed hands. This is one of the main reasons why I continue to mask even though I've had three vaccines. I couldn't count the number of times I've absent-mindedly reached up to touch my face and been stopped by the mask. I also like that it provides a barrier between my mouth and the telephone at work, which is used by all of the staff and has no doubt been a source of transmission for the cold/flu in past years.

[Captain Steel]

Ha, I still don't know.

I only just learned who Aaron Rodgers is because he's been in the news, but since I don't follow sports did not know of him prior.

Joe Rogan I've heard of, but he is far off my radar. I think he was a failed comedian turned radio personality / talk show host or blogger or something like that.

[Citizen Rules]

I only just learned who Aaron Rodgers is because he's been in the news, but since I don't follow sports did not know of him prior.

Joe Rogan I've heard of, but he is far off my radar. I think he was a failed comedian turned radio personality / talk show host or blogger or something like that.Thanks Captain...I don't follow sports either. I did look up Joe Rogan and he's some 'comic personality podcaster' Pffft, I could care less what his opinions are. *Note: that is not an endorsement of his views or an admonishment or whatever.

[Captain Steel]

Thanks Captain...I don't follow sports either. I did look up Joe Rogan and he's some 'comic personality podcaster' Pffft, I could care less what his opinions are. *Note: that is not an endorsement of his views or an admonishment or whatever.

Rogan was in the news recently because he put Dr. Sanjay Gupta on the spot over Gupta's network (CNN) making misleading reports about Rogan taking a drug that he had a doctor's prescription for - saying Rogan was taking horse drugs without acknowledging that it is commonly prescribed for humans as well.

[Jinnistan]

Ivermectin is prescribed to treat parasitic infections.

SARS-CoV-2 is not a parasite.

[Captain Steel]

Ivermectin is prescribed to treat parasitic infections.

SARS-CoV-2 is not a parasite.

I think the point is the media made it sound like Rogan obtained the drug somehow and just swallowed a potentially dangerous substance not intended for humans because he was following some rumors he heard.

But he claimed the drug was prescribed for him by his doctor.

So I can understand his feeling that he was slandered by CNN as they painted a picture of him being reckless, a danger to himself, naïve and stupid (or insane or suicidal as that's what it would take or someone to just swallow unknown animal drugs based on rumors) by ingesting a chemical not meant for humans when he claims he was under a doctor's care who prescribed the drug.

It seems to be another case of media bias intended to publicly smear an individual they don't like by either not fully investigating a story or omitting pertinent facts... and present such slander as a news report.

[Jinnistan]

But he claimed the drug was prescribed for him by his doctor.
I don't doubt it. Someone of Rogan's wealth and resources can find a doctor to prescribe him just about anything he wanted.


So I can understand his feeling that he was slandered by CNN as they painted a picture of him being reckless, a danger to himself, naïve and stupid
I think that "naive and stupid" would suffice. I don't watch CNN though.


It seems to be another case of media bias intended to publicly smear an individual they don't like by either not fully investigating a story or omitting pertinent facts... and present such slander as a news report.
I think that the pertinent facts here are that ivermectin is a medication prescribed for parasitic infections and that SARS-CoV-2 is not a parasite. I think these facts speak for themselves. But there's also the other facts about Rogan's public statements throughout the pandemic, well before his own infection, that throw his own personal biases into question. "I'm not a respectable source of information." Joe Rogan said that when challenged directly by Fauci over Joe's comments on masks and the vaccine. I happen to agree with him. Joe Rogan is not a respectable source of information. I wonder why Rogan didn't say this to Aaron Rodgers when he called for advice. Maybe because Joe Rogan is also a duplicitous weasel who knows he can't refute the facts and tucks tail as soon as anyone who knows the facts calls him out on it.

[Captain Steel]

You're making several points here, Jinn, and I don't disagree with most of them.

(And I admit I don't know enough about Rogan, his degree of knowledge or his reputation to judge his validity. To me he's only a name and I have no idea what his stances or motives are.)

But I have to question the inference that a medical doctor would prescribe an animal drug to a human (which would be potentially dangerous) just for some extra money or by being "starstruck" - especially by a relative 8th tier "celebrity" like Rogan.

Of course there are corrupt & criminal people (including doctors), but it's unlikely a medical doctor would risk their career, reputation or possibly freedom (if criminal charges resulted) just to make money from a celebrity when such behavior could hurt or kill their patient.

But, then again there was Michael Jackson's doctor who prescribed a dangerous drug for the wrong purposes (and knew he was administering it wrongly for sleep when it was a drug intended for surgical uses)... and he paid the price, which might serve as a warning to other doctors.

[Jinnistan]

But I have to question the inference that a medical doctor would prescribe an animal drug to a human
Ivermectin is not exclusively an "animal drug". If you want to take issue with those characterizing it as such, then that's fine. I'd only heard a few stories about some people who were buying the actual animal medication - at animal doses - which certainly would have been dangerous, and Rogan would have a right to push back on that characterization. However, I'm also aware that Joe Rogan was not prepared to accept a doctor's advice regarding ivermectine, because he and a number of his guests have been touting it for several months (and hydroxychloriquine before that). I have no doubt that Rogan asked for his ivermectin prescription based on his long-standing support for its use. But all of that isn't as important as pointing out how this medication functions, even in humans. For example, penicillin is an essential medication but it probably shouldn't be used to treat diabetes.

especially by a relative 8th tier "celebrity" like Rogan
However obscure Joe Rogan is around these parts, he's a much higher-tier star that you give him credit for. He has the most popular podcast in the world, with downloads that easily eclipse the nightly ratings of the most-watched cable news shows. Spotify paid him 50 million dollars for a reason. He's extremely influential.


Of course there are corrupt & criminal people (including doctors), but it's unlikely a medical doctor would risk their career, reputation or possibly freedom (if criminal charges resulted) just to make money from a celebrity when such behavior could hurt or kill their patient.
I don't think we have to look any further than the opioid crises to see that there is a sizable minority of medical doctors who are willing to allow money to override their concerns over patient safety. I don't think that Rogan was even in danger of his prescribed ivermectin, but his constant message that people should choose a potential covid infection instead of vaccination is dangerous and I can't think of very many more prominent media voices, with a comparable audience, that's pushed vaccine hesitancy, based more on 'gubmint' paranoia than practical health risks, than Joe Rogan at the moment.

[Hey Fredrick]

Oh, Joe Rogan strikes again!


Aaron Rodgers: "At the time, my plan was to say that I have been immunized. It wasn't some sort of ruse or lie, it was the truth."


Apparently not, Rodge! If it was the truth that you were "immunized", then you probably wouldn't have caught Covid.


Rodgers vaccinated teammate, Davante Adams and defensive co-coordinator Joe Barry, both caught covid a week earlier. Earlier in the year D Line coach, also vaccinated, Jerry Montgomery tested positive.They probably should not have caught it but they did. Rodgers was being tested daily before entering the teams facilities. The other three were tested once every two weeks. Who posed a bigger threat? Who was more likely to be walking around the facilities with covid? They caught Aaron right away. Davante, Joe and Jerry had a window of 13 days where they could have been spreading it. The vaccinated also do not need to wear masks in the facility, going against CDC guidelines.

"The newly released report showing that vaccinated people can still be superspreaders drove the recent decision by the CDC to once again recommend masks for vaccinated people indoors where case counts are high or substantial.
The viral load of vaccinated people with breakthrough cases is the same as in unvaccinated people, the CDC said Friday."
"High viral loads suggest an increased risk of transmission and raised concern that, unlike with other variants, vaccinated people infected with Delta can transmit the virus,” CDC Director Rochelle Walensky said in a statement. “This finding is concerning and was a pivotal discovery leading to CDC’s updated mask recommendation. The masking recommendation was updated to ensure the vaccinated public would not unknowingly transmit virus to others, including their unvaccinated or immunocompromised loved ones.” https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/cdc-report-shows-vaccinated-people-can-spread-covid-19/ar-AAML2bE

Let's ask non-doctor Joe Rogan what he thinks. Oh, it looks like Joe Rogan's advice also got Joe Rogan infected? That wasn't your first clue weeks ago?

First time I pulled a hamstring I asked a few guys what they did when they pulled their hammy. I think that's normal to ask somebody who went through something what it was like and what they did. A Dr. can tell you what to expect but unless they had it they really don't know what it's like. So he reaches out to Joe Rogan to see what Rogan did to get rid of the virus in two days and Rogan told him. That's insane? They both have big time money that affords them the ability to have medical teams looking out for them. Both medical teams put them on stuff they thought was best for them. Rogan was covid free in two days so whatever his Dr.'s recommended worked pretty well. Aaron said yesterday on McAfee that he is feeling much better and hopes to play Sunday. Sounds like it worked for him as well. That's good, right?

Anyone else believe this horse****?

Is he lying? Maybe, but so what and who cares? He's a QB in the NFL, that's it. Sounds like you didn't listen to the McAfee show, or at least not all of it, which I can understand as it was long, where Rodgers said he was allergic to some of the ingredients in the Moderna and Pfizer vaccine and the J & J had just been pulled so he looked for other alternatives. Not to mention he's one of those people who did have some long term concerns over the vaccine especially as to how it relates to fertility. At this point if you aren't vaccinated you probably won't be influenced by Joe Rogan or Aaron Rodgers vaccination status. The NFL does not make being vaccinated mandatory to play. His teammates, the people who sign his checks and the NFL all knew he wasn't vaccinated.

[Stirchley]

...I can't answer, one would have to know who Joe Rogan and Aaron Rodgers are. I've never heard of them.

Never heard of Rogan, but Rodgers is a famous QB in the NFL. Highly respected, blah, blah, blah.

Engaged to young movie star Shailene Woodley & I wonder if she’s having second thoughts.

[Citizen Rules]

Never heard of Rogan, but Rodgers is a famous QB in the NFL. Highly respected, blah, blah, blah.

Engaged to young movie star Shailene Woodley & I wonder if she’s having second thoughts.I never heard of Shailene Who?;):)

[Stirchley]

I never heard of Shailene Who?;):)

Talented actress.

[mark f]

Citizen has seen The Descendants.

[Citizen Rules]

Citizen has seen The Descendants.I have, good film too.

[Stirchley]

I have, good film too.

Shailene looks so much better with long hair as she had in the movie. She keeps cutting it short for some unknown reason.

[Jinnistan]

Rodgers vaccinated teammate, Davante Adams and defensive co-coordinator Joe Barry, both caught covid a week earlier. Earlier in the year D Line coach, also vaccinated, Jerry Montgomery tested positive.They probably should not have caught it but they did. Rodgers was being tested daily before entering the teams facilities. The other three were tested once every two weeks. Who posed a bigger threat? Who was more likely to be walking around the facilities with covid?
Not sure what the point of any of this is. It ignores the central issue that people are taking issue with Rodgers, including from fellow players, which is that he was not honest about his vaccination status, and obviously he has not been honest about his not being honest about his status. 94% of the league is vaccinated, but the rules don't apply to a star like Rodgers. Was Rodgers being tested daily? I haven't seen that. Because that's what they do for players that haven't been vaccinated. The controversy here is that the league were under the impression that he was. (Maybe the league's lying.) Rodgers does not appear to have been complying with other rules involving unvaccinated players either. What's clear is that Rodgers was deliberately trying to obscure his status from the league and the public.

As for breakthrough cases, among the vaccinated these occur about 10% among those exposed to the delta (specifically) strain of the virus. The answer to the question of "who was more likely to be walking around the facilities with covid?" is pretty clear, because the percentage of unvaccinated people exposed to delta leading to infection is far higher than a breakthrough case. The notion (which Capt Steel also mentioned) that the vaccinated are equal (or greater!) spreaders for the disease is easily debunkable. (https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/09/the-vaccinated-arent-just-as-likely-to-spread-covid/620161/) Overall, this story has tapped into a giant well of covid misinformation (https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2021/11/05/aaron-rodgers-fact-check/) that seriously needs to be corrected (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/08/sports/football/aaron-rodgers-vaccine.html).

So he reaches out to Joe Rogan to see what Rogan did to get rid of the virus in two days and Rogan told him. That's insane?
It's insane if that's what happened, because preventing the infection requires a different regimen than treating an infection, and Rodgers was asking for advice to prevent, or be "immunized" from, infection, which is not something that Rogan can claim to have experienced himself. I was under the impression, though, that this phone call took place around June, before Rogan's infection, back when Rogan was bragging about how his own regimen was providing a strong enough immune system to resist infection (turned out not quite). So, yes, in terms of a recently emerged pandemic virus which has been challenging our highest-qualified virologists, asking Joe Rogan for his medical opinion, and even staking your career on this decision, is pretty f***n insane.

Rogan was covid free in two days so whatever his Dr.'s recommended worked pretty well.
There's no evidence of Rogan's condition outside of his own word, which isn't exactly sterling at this point. But you're also missing the most crucial aspect of his own words. Rogan had a "kitchen sink" treatment, including prednisone, monoclonal antibodies and an array of vitamin drips. Was this treatment regimen more effective than a vaccine would have been? And how much did Big Pharma profit from these expensive treatments as opposed to a free vaccine? Because lest we forget, the entire premise of both Rogan and Rodgers' protest here is to argue that there is a viable alternative to taking a suspicious vaccine.

Aaron said yesterday on McAfee that he is feeling much better and hopes to play Sunday.

Whether Rodgers plays or not will have more to do with whether the league allows him, not his health. But again it's a canard. Rodgers has been taking the same regimen of steroids, antibiotics, vitamin drips and whatever else. None of this proves anything about whether or not he'd have been better off just taking the vaccine. Breakthrough cases very rarely (only among the most immunocompromised) require such expensive medical treatment. This is all in service of maintaining, and tacitly promoting, rationals for vaccine hesitancy.

Is he lying? Maybe, but so what and who cares?
As I said, "maybe not lying, but stupid". And you care, obviously, because you're here defending him. And I care because I'm calling him out. Why do I care? Because Rodgers and Rogan are promoting one of our current society's more existential metastasizing epistemic tumors.

Not to mention he's one of those people who did have some long term concerns over the vaccine especially as to how it relates to fertility.
Yeah, best not to mention that (https://www.bbc.com/news/health-57552527).

His teammates, the people who sign his checks and the NFL all knew he wasn't vaccinated.
This is clearly not true, or else everyone else is lying.

[Wyldesyde19]

Not sure what the point of any of this is. It ignores the central issue that people are taking issue with Rodgers, including from fellow players, which is that he was not honest about his vaccination status, and obviously he has not been honest about his not being honest about his status. 94% of the league is vaccinated, but the rules don't apply to a star like Rodgers. Was Rodgers being tested daily? I haven't seen that. Because that's what they do for players that haven't been vaccinated. The controversy here is that the league were under the impression that he was. (Maybe the league's lying.) Rodgers does not appear to have been complying with other rules involving unvaccinated players either. What's clear is that Rodgers was deliberately trying to obscure his status from the league and the public.

As for breakthrough cases, among the vaccinated these occur about 10% among those exposed to the delta (specifically) strain of the virus. The answer to the question of "who was more likely to be walking around the facilities with covid?" is pretty clear, because the percentage of unvaccinated people exposed to delta leading to infection is far higher than a breakthrough case. The notion (which Capt Steel also mentioned) that the vaccinated are equal (or greater!) spreaders for the disease is easily debunkable. (https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/09/the-vaccinated-arent-just-as-likely-to-spread-covid/620161/) Overall, this story has tapped into a giant well of covid misinformation (https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2021/11/05/aaron-rodgers-fact-check/) that seriously needs to be corrected (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/08/sports/football/aaron-rodgers-vaccine.html).


It's insane if that's what happened, because preventing the infection requires a different regimen than treating an infection, and Rodgers was asking for advice to prevent, or be "immunized" from, infection, which is not something that Rogan can claim to have experienced himself. I was under the impression, though, that this phone call took place around June, before Rogan's infection, back when Rogan was bragging about how his own regimen was providing a strong enough immune system to resist infection (turned out not quite). So, yes, in terms of a recently emerged pandemic virus which has been challenging our highest-qualified virologists, asking Joe Rogan for his medical opinion, and even staking your career on this decision, is pretty f***n insane.


There's no evidence of Rogan's condition outside of his own word, which isn't exactly sterling at this point. But you're also missing the most crucial aspect of his own words. Rogan had a "kitchen sink" treatment, including prednisone, monoclonal antibodies and an array of vitamin drips. Was this treatment regimen more effective than a vaccine would have been? And how much did Big Pharma profit from these expensive treatments as opposed to a free vaccine? Because lest we forget, the entire premise of both Rogan and Rodgers' protest here is to argue that there is a viable alternative to taking a suspicious vaccine.



Whether Rodgers plays or not will have more to do with whether the league allows him, not his health. But again it's a canard. Rodgers has been taking the same regimen of steroids, antibiotics, vitamin drips and whatever else. None of this proves anything about whether or not he'd have been better off just taking the vaccine. Breakthrough cases very rarely (only among the most immunocompromised) require such expensive medical treatment. This is all in service of maintaining, and tacitly promoting, rationals for vaccine hesitancy.


As I said, "maybe not lying, but stupid". And you care, obviously, because you're here defending him. And I care because I'm calling him out. Why do I care? Because Rodgers and Rogan are promoting one of our current society's more existential metastasizing epistemic tumors.


Yeah, best not to mention that (https://www.bbc.com/news/health-57552527).


This is clearly not true, or else everyone else is lying.

While I agree with most of the above, I do want to point out Rodgers has no history of Steroid use, nor any hint of it. *
I know, low hanging fruit and all that but still….

[Jinnistan]

While I agree with most of the above, I do want to point out Rodgers has no history of Steroid use, nor any hint of it. *
I know, low hanging fruit and all that but still….
I'm referring to those steroids used to treat pneumonia, such as prednisone and others. These are common and effective treatments used in covid cases. I'm not talking about anabolic steroids used by bodybuilders.

[Jinnistan]

It looks like the NFL were more or less aware of Rodgers' status, but are claiming to be unaware that Rodgers was not complying with their unvaccinated protocols - wearing masks, travelling separately - that players, such as Kirk Cousins, who have been more honest about their unvaccinated status, have had to adhere to. Rodgers just wanted to have it both ways.

[Wyldesyde19]

I'm referring to those steroids used to treat pneumonia, such as prednisone and others. These are common and effective treatments used in covid cases. I'm not talking about anabolic steroids used by bodybuilders.
Ah, gotcha. My bad. Carry on

[Hey Fredrick]

It ignores the central issue that people are taking issue with Rodgers, including from fellow players, which is that he was not honest about his vaccination status, and obviously he has not been honest about his not being honest about his status. 94% of the league is vaccinated, but the rules don't apply to a star like Rodgers.

Which fellow players, on his team, those most affected by his choices, are having an issue? I follow GB football pretty close and haven't heard a thing from anybody inside the locker room or in the facility. I know former players, local and national media are criticizing him but whatever. That's just noise. Maybe some players in the locker room are upset but if they are, they're smart enough to keep their mouths shut about the one guy who gives them the best chance to win a title. Being one of the best players in the NFL does come with some perks, always has.

NFL did an investigation and fined Aaron $15,000 for not following a rule (you know what he did, right?) If the rules didn't apply they wouldn't have fined him. They found he did nothing wrong while at the facility.

Have you heard about Kirk Cousins violating the NFL's covid policy all year (until this week, weird?) He's unvaccinated and is supposed to be masked at press conferences. Hardly a star yet unpunished. It's all window dressing. Unfortunately, the Vikings won't let me post the video here but it's on you tube. Kirk Cousins Presser 2021.

Was Rodgers being tested daily? I haven't seen that. Because that's what they do for players that haven't been vaccinated.

That's what they (NFL) are supposed to do with unvaccinated players. Rodgers says he was tested daily. If he recovers and is able to play he won't have to undergo daily testing for 90 days.

The controversy here is that the league were under the impression that he was. (Maybe the league's lying.) Rodgers does not appear to have been complying with other rules involving unvaccinated players either. What's clear is that Rodgers was deliberately trying to obscure his status from the league and the public.

No he wasn't. Not from the league. Rodgers informed the league last summer that he was doing treatments to raise his immune system. The NFL rejected those treatments as being immunized. Rodgers appealed their decision and lost. The league was well aware of what Rodgers was doing. The only rule Rodgers broke, apparently (it's why he was fined), is for going to a Halloween party with unmasked people. That's it. The NFL is known for being a little shady. Doing whatever it takes to protect their image is kind of their "thing." It's why they have some of these stupid protocols in the first place (like masking at a press conference).

Rodgers was trying to fool the public and the media, won't argue that but...so what? He was trying to stay out of the entire vaccine debate. Most of the media would bend over backwards to get the kind of access a former punter (McAfee) has to Rodgers. Maybe they're a little miffed about that and now is a good time to pile on. It's also known that SOME media members knew about his status but where sitting on it for whatever reason. Wonder why? His obligation to the media is to talk with them after games and hold a once a week presser. He doesn't have to say anything of value at all, much less anything about his personal life/health. If he wanted (and I wish he would) he could go all Marshawn Lynch in those pressers.

https://youtu.be/Bn0Z3oj59yU

As for breakthrough cases, among the vaccinated these occur about 10% among those exposed to the delta (specifically) strain of the virus. The answer to the question of "who was more likely to be walking around the facilities with covid?" is pretty clear, because the percentage of unvaccinated people exposed to delta leading to infection is far higher than a breakthrough case. The notion (which Capt Steel also mentioned) that the vaccinated are equal (or greater!) spreaders for the disease is easily debunkable. (https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/09/the-vaccinated-arent-just-as-likely-to-spread-covid/620161/) Overall, this story has tapped into a giant well of covid misinformation (https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2021/11/05/aaron-rodgers-fact-check/) that seriously needs to be corrected (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/08/sports/football/aaron-rodgers-vaccine.html).


"The viral load of vaccinated people with breakthrough cases is the same as in unvaccinated people, the CDC said Friday."
"High viral loads suggest an increased risk of transmission and raised concern that, unlike with other variants, vaccinated people infected with Delta can transmit the virus,” CDC Director Rochelle Walensky said in a statement.

Is/was Walensky spreading misinformation? And if so, should she be fired? She's the head of the CDC not some reporter.

From the Atlantic article you linked: "An outbreak in Provincetown, Massachusetts—in which 74 percent of the 469 cases were in the fully vaccinated—forced the CDC to update its mask guidance and issue a sad and sobering warning: Vaccinated people infected with the SARS-CoV-2 Delta variant can be just as contagious as unvaccinated people."

356 vaccinated people tested positive. I'm not saying the vaccine didn't help with symptoms, but it didn't do a good job of preventing spread if 356 people got it. The author apparently disagrees with the CDC and his reply/argument was: "To spread the coronavirus, you have to have the coronavirus." Needless to say...I agree with this. Would have been nice to see some citations for the article. Comes across as opinion.

It's insane if that's what happened, because preventing the infection requires a different regimen than treating an infection, and Rodgers was asking for advice to prevent, or be "immunized" from, infection, which is not something that Rogan can claim to have experienced himself. I was under the impression, though, that this phone call took place around June, before Rogan's infection, back when Rogan was bragging about how his own regimen was providing a strong enough immune system to resist infection (turned out not quite). So, yes, in terms of a recently emerged pandemic virus which has been challenging our highest-qualified virologists, asking Joe Rogan for his medical opinion, and even staking your career on this decision, is pretty f***n insane.

There's no evidence of Rogan's condition outside of his own word, which isn't exactly sterling at this point. But you're also missing the most crucial aspect of his own words. Rogan had a "kitchen sink" treatment, including prednisone, monoclonal antibodies and an array of vitamin drips. Was this treatment regimen more effective than a vaccine would have been? And how much did Big Pharma profit from these expensive treatments as opposed to a free vaccine? Because lest we forget, the entire premise of both Rogan and Rodgers' protest here is to argue that there is a viable alternative to taking a suspicious vaccine.

I'm not missing anything. All of Rogans treatments were therapeutic, after his positive test. He wasn't taking that stuff for the last year and a half.

Rodgers contacted Rogan after he tested positive (it's in the McAfee conversation) and his medical team used the same treatments that Rogan's medical team put him on after he tested positive. This is what Rogan said he did after getting covid (40 seconds in):
https://youtu.be/tyK01_6dVKQ

Whether Rodgers plays or not will have more to do with whether the league allows him, not his health.

He was not suspended. He will play as soon as he's healthy. Maybe Sunday. It's up to the team and Rodgers at this point.

None of this proves anything about whether or not he'd have been better off just taking the vaccine.

Rodgers says he's allergic to some of the ingredients in the Pfizer and Moderna and the J and J was pulled (maybe prematurely) for clotting issues. "If you have had a severe allergic reaction or an immediate allergic reaction—even if it was not severe—to any ingredient in an mRNA COVID-19 vaccine, you should not get either of the currently available mRNA COVID-19 vaccines (Pfizer-BioNTech and Moderna)."https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/recommendations/specific-groups/allergies.html

And you care, obviously, because you're here defending him. And I care because I'm calling him out. Why do I care? Because Rodgers and Rogan are promoting one of our current society's more existential metastasizing epistemic tumors.

I do care. That's my QB. I want him healthy and on the field. Again, it looks like the meds his Dr.'s prescribed worked well for him. So far. Only time will tell.

Yeah, best not to mention that (https://www.bbc.com/news/health-57552527).

I do read the links you post. This one...I don't know. Rodgers is probably not worried about his ovaries, having a miscarriage or the formation of his placenta during pregnancy.

It seems like a lot of what your getting at with Rodgers (and Rogan) has been based on second hand reporting and soundbites. Rodgers entire sit down with McAfee and follow up is out there to watch. Why rely on a reporter when you can listen to the guy the reporter is reporting about. Get rid of the middle man. All the reporters are doing is watching McAfee then pulling out bits and pieces to fit their story, which people read, then think they're informed. That's lazy. Did not read the WaPo or NY Times articles as they are behind a paywall.

[Jinnistan]

Rodgers informed the league last summer that he was doing treatments to raise his immune system. The NFL rejected those treatments as being immunized. Rodgers appealed their decision and lost.
And yet Rodgers, after that, still went in front of the public on Aug. 26 and said "Yeah, I'm immunized".

Rodgers was trying to fool the public and the media, won't argue that but...so what?
"Fooling the public" is exactly what I'm criticizing him out for. And for doing so by spreading covid misinformation.

The author apparently disagrees with the CDC and his reply/argument was: "To spread the coronavirus, you have to have the coronavirus." Needless to say...I agree with this. Would have been nice to see some citations for the article.
There are a number of cited hyperlinks in that article, which you might want to read as well. The point being that, yes, despite the incidence of breakthrough cases which can spread infections, the number of ultimately infected cases among vaccinated people is a fraction compared to the contagious unvaccinated cases. Here's (https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/10/12/1044553048/covid-data-vaccines-breakthrough-infections-transmission) a couple more easily googable articles making this point clear (https://www.newscientist.com/article/2294250-how-much-less-likely-are-you-to-spread-covid-19-if-youre-vaccinated/).

Rodgers says he's allergic to some of the ingredients in the Pfizer and Moderna
And he has not said which ingredient, which is weird, because if this were the case then Rodgers could have qualified for a valid medical exemption from the league, which he didn't ask for. And the most likely allergic ingredient in the vaccines, polyethylene glycol, would have to already be on Rodgers' medical records, as this is an ingredient in a number of commonly used NFL medications. In other words, people have good reason to be skeptical of his claim here.

I do read the links you post. This one...I don't know. Rodgers is probably not worried about his ovaries, having a miscarriage or the formation of his placenta during pregnancy.
That article explicitly states that the vaccines affect neither male nor female fertility. If there's a lack of fact-checking on the effects of male fertility and the vaccines, that's because there's been so very little question of it until now. Outside of Rodgers and Nicki Minaj's cousin's friend, there haven't been too many concerns over it, but now that Rodgers is out there, there's been some follow-up (https://www.miamiherald.com/news/coronavirus/article255644891.html). Regardless, the obvious point stands that Rodgers' concern about his fertility has no legs to stand on, and certainly isn't a valid concern that's based in any real-world science or reason.

It seems like a lot of what your getting at with Rodgers (and Rogan) has been based on second hand reporting and soundbites.
Sounds like a lot of your information regarding the coronavirus, like Rodgers and Rogan, is also coming from some pretty dubious and easily refuted sources. Since it's this spread of covid misinformation that Rodgers and Rogan have been responsible for, and which I'm taking issue with, it might be nice if some of these folks get a little wiser with their informational nutrition, and get a lot more responsible in not relaying this toxic misinformation.

[CringeFest]

What "public"?

[Jinnistan]

What "public"?
The mass media news camera he was looking into when he said "Yeah, I'm immunized."?

[CringeFest]

The mass media news camera he was looking into when he said "Yeah, I'm immunized."?

yeah, i get the frustration with Aaron Rodgers, but that doesn't seem like much of a reason to perpetuate the same nonsense that HE believes in.

[Jinnistan]

yeah, i get the frustration with Aaron Rodgers, but that doesn't seem like much of a reason to perpetuate the same nonsense that HE believes in.
I agree that there isn't a good reason to perpetuate the nonsense of his misinformed beliefs. Which is why I'm less irritated but his initial ruse than I am on how his response to this has been to double-down on perpetuating his nonsensical beliefs. I don't care about changing his personal beliefs, but I do feel like fact-checking those beliefs which can be factually refuted.

[CringeFest]

I agree that there isn't a good reason to perpetuate the nonsense of his misinformed beliefs. Which is why I'm less irritated but his initial ruse than I am on how his response to this has been to double-down on perpetuating his nonsensical beliefs. I don't care about changing his personal beliefs, but I do feel like fact-checking those beliefs which can be factually refuted.

yeah, well i guess if there's anything good about the internet, it makes it obvious that everyone is sort of on a level playing field when the **** hits the fan. That isn't totally true either...but i don't like liars and hypocrites. The more liars and hypocrites...the more liars and hypocrites. I AM A LIAR AND A HYPOCRITE!:mad:

[Hey Fredrick]

I'm just going to keep this going as it pertains to Rodgers are the rest of the coronavirus stuff isn't very interesting to me and we're never going to come to an agreement. Thankfully this news cycle has just about run it's course.

And yet Rodgers, after that, still went in front of the public on Aug. 26 and said "Yeah, I'm immunized".

"Fooling the public" is exactly what I'm criticizing him out for. And for doing so by spreading covid misinformation.

He definitely tried to mislead the public/media but I don't care. You do and that's fine. A lot of folks are with you. Misinformation is nothing but a buzzword to me. I think you're misinformed and you think I am. Stalemate.

And he has not said which ingredient, which is weird, because if this were the case then Rodgers could have qualified for a valid medical exemption from the league, which he didn't ask for. And the most likely allergic ingredient in the vaccines, polyethylene glycol, would have to already be on Rodgers' medical records, as this is an ingredient in a number of commonly used NFL medications. In other words, people have good reason to be skeptical of his claim here.

Medical records are private, no? Rodgers mentioned the medical exemption on the McAfee show and said they would allow a medical exemption but he would still be considered unvaccinated and would have to follow the unvaccinated protocols. What he's allergic to is his business, not mine or yours or anyone else.

Sounds like a lot of your information regarding the coronavirus, like Rodgers and Rogan, is also coming from some pretty dubious and easily refuted sources. Since it's this spread of covid misinformation that Rodgers and Rogan have been responsible for, and which I'm taking issue with, it might be nice if some of these folks get a little wiser with their informational nutrition, and get a lot more responsible in not relaying this toxic misinformation.

The only things I linked to so far are the CDC and an MSN article quoting the head of the CDC. I wouldn't call them dubious. Oh and Rogan explaining exactly what he did to beat the infection and Marshawn Lynch being awesome.

Anyway, my sources for the Rodgers hullabaloo is the Rodgers-McAfee conversation, which is everybody's only source and is something which you seem to be reacting to through soundbites and headlines. Most of what you have stated about Rodgers treatments pre and post covid were not true.

As for Rogan, I don't listen to or watch his stuff. Always thought he was kind of annoying and don't think he's funny at all. I have seen bits of his shows on youtube if he has a guest on that I'm interested in. You seemed to be confused as to when Rogan (and Rodgers) started his treatments and I thought hearing from the horses mouth and what he did post infection would clear things up.

[Yoda]

What he's allergic to is his business, not mine or yours or anyone else.
I mean, if we think he's lying, it's a reasonable thing to wonder about, since it a) sounds kind of implausible and b) we already know he lied ("misled," if you prefer, but the key point is deliberate deception).

If a public figure lies in public about a public health issue, I do think that's kind of our business. At least in the sense that it's reasonable to question and criticize it. Nobody's breaking into his house demanding answers or anything though, so it remains "his business" in all but the sense that allows us to have opinions about it.

You seemed to be confused as to when Rogan (and Rodgers) started his treatments and I thought hearing from the horses mouth and what he did post infection would clear things up.
I think he made clear in the previous post, though, that he mistrusts what they're saying. I didn't think there was much dispute over what was said. I recall him also saying that Rogan did a bunch of different things, so ascribing recovery to any one of them wouldn't really be logical. Even if everything he's saying is true (and he has a history of just...saying stuff), he threw too many variables at the problem and there would be no way to know which was effective (or whether it was some weird combination of them).

[Yoda]

^ the above is just me trying to clarify a few things. I grant there might be a genuine impasse and all that, but I just thought I saw a couple of places where people were maybe talking past each other a little.

[Jinnistan]

I'm just going to keep this going as it pertains to Rodgers are the rest of the coronavirus stuff isn't very interesting to me and we're never going to come to an agreement.
Likewise, I really couldn't care less about Rodgers personally. But, you know, since this is a thread about coronavirus, I suppose I'll continue talking about that.


Misinformation is nothing but a buzzword to me. I think you're misinformed and you think I am. Stalemate.
This is unfortunately too typical of internet debate, the "epistemic tumor" that I mentioned earlier.


Medical records are private, no? Rodgers mentioned the medical exemption on the McAfee show and said they would allow a medical exemption but he would still be considered unvaccinated and would have to follow the unvaccinated protocols. What he's allergic to is his business, not mine or yours or anyone else.
I've been going by Rodgers' medical information that he has chosen to make public. Had Rodgers done like Cousins or others, privately informed the NFL of his unvaccinated status, quietly complied with protocols, and ended up with an infection, I doubt the backlash against him would have been so sharp. But he misled about his status, almost as if he were doing that for a reason. That reason wasn't privacy.


The only things I linked to so far are the CDC and an MSN article quoting the head of the CDC. I wouldn't call them dubious.
I was referring to the unlinked sources where you got the impression that vaccinated players may be a greater risk of spreading covid than the unvaccinated, or the impression that the vaccine's harm to male fertility is a valid concern worth respecting.


Most of what you have stated about Rodgers treatments pre and post covid were not true.
Part of the problem is that what Rodgers has said is not particularly clear. He had said that he consulted Rogan on the "immunization" regimen that he tried to pass off on the NFL as a vaccine substitute, and he has also said that he consulted Rogan on the post-infection treatment. Both apparently can be true.



To the larger issue, and the tumor, if it involved something other than a public health crisis that's killed more Americans than all 20th century wars combined, it would be amusing at the obstinance to evidence from those like Rogan and Rodgers, and more generally the anti-vaxx community, in which people who have been as consistently wrong as someone like Joe Rogan (or Elon Musk, or Rand Paul, or Scott Atlas) are so incapable of just saying, "Welp, looks like I was wrong". This is unfortunately a cultural development which is political in nature, and it's precisely the kind of political issue that the forum's policy is designed to discourage because once facts and evidence become arbitrary, then there ceases to be a good faith willingness to consider them.


(ps: I think this exchange has been fairly cordial, so don't take it personally.)

[Hey Fredrick]

I mean, if we think he's lying, it's a reasonable thing to wonder about, since it a) sounds kind of implausible and b) we already know he lied ("misled," if you prefer, but the key point is deliberate deception).

Of course it's reasonable to wonder and I'm not even saying I believe him about that. It's unreasonable to demand he specify what he's allergic to or put his medical records out for everyone to see. It's nobody's business but his.

If a public figure lies in public about a public health issue, I do think that's kind of our business. At least in the sense that it's reasonable to question and criticize it. Nobody's breaking into his house demanding answers or anything though, so it remains "his business" in all but the sense that allows us to have opinions about it.

Depends on the position the public figure holds. I don't hold athletes in some exalted class. They're entertainers so no, I am not going to hold him to the same standard as, say, an elected official or the head of the CDC.

You probably know a little about Rodgers. The media has fawned for years over how intelligent he is and how cryptic his press conference answers could be. He gives one of his cryptic answers about vaccination and no follow up? That's on the media. Especially the locals who have been around him since he joined the NFL. The question is did he lie. I prefer misled but if you like lie okay. If he thought the treatments he took provided the same amount of protection as the vaccine is he lying? At that point, according to Rodgers, who I'll admit could be lying, the NFL hadn't ruled on those treatments. The NFL has been pretty quiet, aside from the fines, but I haven't heard them deny what Rodgers said about the timeline. But I also think they (NFL) are hoping this goes away asap.

I think he made clear in the previous post, though, that he mistrusts what they're saying. I didn't think there was much dispute over what was said. I recall him also saying that Rogan did a bunch of different things, so ascribing recovery to any one of them wouldn't really be logical. Even if everything he's saying is true (and he has a history of just...saying stuff), he threw too many variables at the problem and there would be no way to know which was effective (or whether it was some weird combination of them).

The mistrust is obvious and hardly surprising. Rogan took the "kitchen sink" after testing positive. His words not mine. Maybe it took the kitchen sink to be effective and that's why his Dr.'s put him on it. I don't know. I'm not a Dr., but he has a team of them and that's what they did. I posted the video so we had a base to work off - what exactly he took. If you don't buy what he's saying fine, but at least we both know what exactly what was said.

As somebody who follows sports and football do you really believe that the NFL didn't know the vaccination status of the reigning MVP of the NFL?

[Hey Fredrick]

Likewise, I really couldn't care less about Rodgers personally. But, you know, since this is a thread about coronavirus, I suppose I'll continue talking about that.

You were the first person to mention him and that's the only reason I'm even here.

I've been going by Rodgers' medical information that he has chosen to make public. Had Rodgers done like Cousins or others, privately informed the NFL of his unvaccinated status, quietly complied with protocols, and ended up with an infection, I doubt the backlash against him would have been so sharp.

To be fair to a Viking, Cousins was very public and upfront about being unvaccinated and took quite a bit of heat about it. In fact, him and Cole Beasley were the faces of the anti vax players for awhile. Nothing private about his status at all and he has also been violating protocols just like a number of players have been. Just look at how many players are wearing masks to press conferences this week. You didn't see that two weeks ago.

I was referring to the unlinked sources where you got the impression that vaccinated players may be a greater risk of spreading covid than the unvaccinated, or the impression that the vaccine's harm to male fertility is a valid concern worth respecting.

I linked a source. Granted it's about all people not just players.


"The newly released report showing that vaccinated people can still be superspreaders drove the recent decision by the CDC to once again recommend masks for vaccinated people indoors where case counts are high or substantial.
The viral load of vaccinated people with breakthrough cases is the same as in unvaccinated people, the CDC said Friday."
"High viral loads suggest an increased risk of transmission and raised concern that, unlike with other variants, vaccinated people infected with Delta can transmit the virus,” CDC Director Rochelle Walensky said in a statement. “This finding is concerning and was a pivotal discovery leading to CDC’s updated mask recommendation. The masking recommendation was updated to ensure the vaccinated public would not unknowingly transmit virus to others, including their unvaccinated or immunocompromised loved ones.” https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/cdc-report-shows-vaccinated-people-can-spread-covid-19/ar-AAML2bE


I asked who posed a bigger threat earlier in the thread in regards to testing. A vaccinated person who tested negative 13 days ago ago or an unvaccinated player who tested negative this morning? Regardless of vaccination status I'd feel safer around the most recently tested person.

I shared Rodgers concern about fertility. I don't give a hoot about the impact the vaccine may or may not have on fertility. I'm past the age of worrying about that.

(ps: I think this exchange has been fairly cordial, so don't take it personally.)

I'm fine. We have different takes on it. No biggie.

[Jinnistan]

You were the first person to mention him and that's the only reason I'm even here.
Yes, I mentioned him, in a very specific context which is relevant to the thread. My focus on Rodgers has been the covid misinformation that he's using as an excuse for getting caught not being entirely honest about his immunization. If you don't want to discuss this issue in context of the facts around covid, then I'm not sure why you're here in this particular thread.

I linked a source.
Yes you did, and it isn't the source there that's dubious but your reading of it. The MSN article repeats what I had already said: that in the case of a breakthrough case, an infected vaccinated person carries about the same viral load as an infected unvaccinated person. You omitted the distinction that only 10% of vaccinated people have breakthrough infections, greatly reducing the overall transmissibility among vaccinated people. And the couple of quotes from your article which may be more pertinent: "The biggest takeaway is that we need more people to be vaccinated", "it’s a pandemic of the willfully unvaccinated". But the answer to the question of who is more likely to spread the coronavirus is still clearly and overwhelmingly an unvaccinated person.

I shared Rodgers concern about fertility. I don't give a hoot about the impact the vaccine may or may not have on fertility. I'm past the age of worrying about that.
And I've shared the point that "don't care, la-la-la" doesn't make for a very convincing retort. Besides there being no documented instance of the vaccines causing any fertility issues, there's the added dilemma that there is no biological mechanism for how an mRNA vaccine could even cause a fertility issue. It's not a reasonable concern.

[Hey Fredrick]

That article explicitly states that the vaccines affect neither male nor female fertility.



This is the article you linked to. Maybe I'm reading it wrong but where in this article does it mention men's fertility at all?


"False and misleading claims about Covid-19 vaccines, fertility and miscarriages are still circulating online, despite not being supported by evidence.


Doctors are extremely cautious about what they recommend during pregnancy, so the original advice was to avoid the jab.


But now, so much safety data has become available that this advice has changed and the vaccine is now actively encouraged (as getting Covid itself can put a pregnancy at risk).


We have looked at some of the more persistent claims - and why they are wrong.


A study shows the vaccine accumulating in the ovaries - False


This theory comes from a misreading of a study submitted to the Japanese regulator (https://files.catbox.moe/0vwcmj.pdf).


The study involved giving rats a much higher dose of vaccine than that given to humans (1,333 times higher).


Only 0.1% of the total dose ended up in the animals' ovaries, 48 hours after injection.


Far more - 53% after one hour and 25% after 48 hours - was found at the injection site (in humans, usually the arm). The next most common place was the liver (16% after 48 hours), which helps get rid of waste products from the blood.


The vaccine is delivered using a bubble of fat containing the virus's genetic material, which kick-starts the body's immune system.


And those promoting this claim cherry-picked a figure which actually referred to the concentration of fat found in the ovaries.


https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/C114/production/_119882494_976_ovaries_false-nc.png

Fat levels in the ovaries did increase in the 48 hours after the jab, as the vaccine contents moved from the injection site around the body.


But, crucially, there was no evidence it still contained the virus's genetic material.


We don't know what happened after 48 hours as that was the limit of the study.


Monitoring data shows vaccines cause miscarriages - False


Some posts have highlighted miscarriages reported to vaccine-monitoring schemes, including the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency (MHRA) Yellow Card scheme in the UK and the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) in the US.


Anyone can report symptoms or health conditions they experience after being vaccinated. Not everyone will choose to report, so this is a self-selecting database.


There were indeed miscarriages reported in these databases - they are unfortunately common events - but this does not mean the jab caused them.


https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/11705/production/_119892417_false_astra_zeneca-nc-002.png

A study has found data showing the miscarriage rate among vaccinated people (https://www.nejm.org/doi/pdf/10.1056/NEJMoa2104983?articleTools=true) was in line with the rate expected in the general population - 12.5%.


Dr Victoria Male, a reproductive immunologist at Imperial College London, says these reporting systems are very good for spotting side-effects from the vaccine that are normally rare in the general population - that's how a specific type of blood clot was linked in some rare cases to the AstraZeneca vaccine.


If you suddenly start seeing unusual symptoms in vaccinated people, it raises a red flag.




The unfounded claims about vaccines and fertility (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-56012529)
True stories, fake claims about periods and the vaccine (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-56901353)




They are not so good at monitoring side-effects that are common in the population - such as changes to periods, miscarriages and heart problems. Seeing them in the data doesn't necessarily raise these red flags because you'd expect to see them anyway, vaccine or not.


It's only if we start getting many more miscarriages than are seen in unvaccinated people that this data would prompt an investigation - and that's not been the case so far.


Some people have also shared graphs showing a big rise in the overall number of people reporting their experiences to these schemes compared with previous years, for other vaccines and drugs.


This has been used to imply the Covid vaccine is less safe. But the rise can't tell us that, it can only tell us that lots of people are reporting - possibly because an unprecedented proportion of the population is being vaccinated and it is a much talked-about subject.


Vaccines could attack the placenta - No evidence


A widely shared petition from Michael Yeadon, a scientific researcher who has made other misleading statements about Covid, claimed the coronavirus's spike protein contained within the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines was similar to a protein called syncytin-1, involved in forming the placenta.


He speculated that this might cause antibodies against the virus to attack a developing pregnancy, too.


Some experts believe this was the origin of the whole belief that Covid vaccines might harm fertility.


In fact syncytin-1 and the coronavirus's spike protein are just about as similar as any two random proteins so there is no real reason to believe the body might confuse them.


But now evidence has been gathered to help disprove his theory.


https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/13644/production/_119882497_976_syncytin-1_no-evidence-nc.png

US fertility doctor Randy Morris, who wanted to respond directly to the concerns he'd heard, began monitoring his patients who were undergoing IVF treatment (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2666334121000684#bib2) to see whether vaccination made any difference to their chances of a successful pregnancy.


Out of 143 people in Dr Morris's study, vaccinated, unvaccinated and previously infected women were about equally likely to have a successful embryo implantation and for the pregnancy to continue to term. The women were similar in most other respects.


The study is small, but it adds to a large volume of other evidence - and were the claim true, you would expect that to show up even in a study of this size.


Dr Morris pointed out that people spreading these fears had not explained why they believed antibodies produced in response to the vaccine could harm fertility but the same antibodies from a natural infection would not.


The problem is, while scientists are rushing to provide evidence to reassure people, by the time they can report their findings people online have moved on to the next thing.


As Dr Morris explained: "The hallmark of a conspiracy theory is as soon as it's disproven, you move the goalpost.""

[Hey Fredrick]

Here's a study posted on 9-21 on the effects of the vaccine on sperm count. It's a small study but it's something.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8446925/


Fertility is something I never cared much about as far as vaccines go although I think it should definitely be studied before going into widespread use. It wouldn't have been a deciding factor for me as to getting the vaccine or not unless it made things fall off, which I'm sure would have been reported somewhere. Anyway, this discussion piqued my curiosity regarding fertility and the above study is one of them I came across.

The study's conclusion: "After receiving the two doses of the vaccines, we did not observe a clinically significant sperm parameter decline within the cohort, suggesting the vaccines do not negatively impact male fertility potential."

[Stirchley]

Was talking to a neighbor yesterday inside a gas station. Was trying to direct her to someone who could help her with her apartment issues. Talked to her for about 10 minutes.

Walking home today remembering this & suddenly remembered this woman is not vaccinated. She wore a mask yesterday, but I didn’t. :(:(:(

[Stirchley]

Was talking to a neighbor yesterday inside a gas station. Was trying to direct her to someone who could help her with her apartment issues. Talked to her for about 10 minutes.

Walking home today remembering this & suddenly remembered this woman is not vaccinated. She wore a mask yesterday, but I didn’t. :(:(:(

The more I think about this the dumber I look. :rolleyes:

[Takoma11]

The more I think about this the dumber I look. :rolleyes:

Oh, I don't know. The unvaccinated person being masked is the more important piece, I think.

I'm just masking all of the time unless I'm in my home or the home of a family member. If I start being masked some of the time and unmasked at other times, my brain will not be able to handle it.

[CringeFest]

I'm just masking all of the time unless I'm in my home or the home of a family member. If I start being masked some of the time and unmasked at other times, my brain will not be able to handle it.

i totally get that, i remember when i was just wearing a mask so that people in businesses wouldn't bat an eye, that was pretty stressful. "oh, i forgot!", so annoying...

[Miss Vicky]

I don't usually wear a mask when I'm outside, though as we get further into winter I may start doing it just for the warmth, but I always wear a mask when I'm at work or in any indoor public space. I haven't visited any family since the pandemic started and rarely go to friends' houses, but all of my friends are vaccinated so I don't bother with a mask when I do visit them.

[Captain Terror]

So the Pfizer booster shot beat the living daylights outta me this weekend. Got it Friday at lunch and woke up Saturday feeling like I'd been run over by a dump truck. Fever got to 102.2 at one point. This was my experience with the previous shots as well, so I was expecting it.
I was mostly fine by Sunday afternoon, but I hope this is my last shot for the next year at least. Ouch.

[Jinnistan]

I was going to get my booster at the beginning of the year, but I keep hearing "six months" more consistently now. Thanksgiving will be exactly six months since my last shot. But I'm afraid that if I get one now, I'll be unable to do anything for Thanksgiving anyway. At least my grandparents are boosted.

[Stirchley]

I was going to get my booster at the beginning of the year, but I keep hearing "six months" more consistently now. Thanksgiving will be exactly six months since my last shot. But I'm afraid that if I get one now, I'll be unable to do anything for Thanksgiving anyway. At least my grandparents are boosted.

I don’t know a single person who had ill-effects from the booster. If I were you, I would get it right now.

[Jinnistan]

I don’t know a single person who had ill-effects from the booster. If I were you, I would get it right now.
I'll definitely get it soon, maybe within weeks. I had a breakthrugh infection in mid-July, so I think my antibodies will be fine until then.

[Rockatansky]

So the Pfizer booster shot beat the living daylights outta me this weekend. Got it Friday at lunch and woke up Saturday feeling like I'd been run over by a dump truck. Fever got to 102.2 at one point. This was my experience with the previous shots as well, so I was expecting it.
I was mostly fine by Sunday afternoon, but I hope this is my last shot for the next year at least. Ouch.
I'm in Canada so will be a while until I get my booster, but hoping to get it mid week so I can game the side effects for some sick days. Judge not that ye not be judged.

[Takoma11]

So the Pfizer booster shot beat the living daylights outta me this weekend. Got it Friday at lunch and woke up Saturday feeling like I'd been run over by a dump truck. Fever got to 102.2 at one point. This was my experience with the previous shots as well, so I was expecting it.
I was mostly fine by Sunday afternoon, but I hope this is my last shot for the next year at least. Ouch.

Aw, :(

I had pretty mild reactions to all three shots. Just a little bit of a headache. I got my flu shot and COVID booster on the same day, and the sore arm was the worst of it.

I was at a leadership meeting today and someone wanted us to get all the kids together for an assembly the day before Christmas break and the Principal was like "NOPE!!!". LOL. I don't blame her. One positive case and she'd be spending days contact tracing.

[Captain Terror]

Aw, :(

I had pretty mild reactions to all three shots. Just a little bit of a headache. I got my flu shot and COVID booster on the same day, and the sore arm was the worst of it.

Yeah, I'm just one of the lucky ones I guess. My parents are in their mid-70s and haven't had reactions like mine. I wake up around 2 am with every muscle in my body sore, as if I'd run a marathon the day before (which, I assure you, I hadn't. :)) And then the high fever gives me intense shivers whenever I try to get off the couch long enough to do anything. It was a pretty pathetic scene around here, lemme tell ya.

[Takoma11]

Yeah, I'm just one of the lucky ones I guess. My parents are in their mid-70s and haven't had reactions like mine. I wake up around 2 am with every muscle in my body sore, as if I'd run a marathon the day before (which, I assure you, I hadn't. :)) And then the high fever gives me intense shivers whenever I try to get off the couch long enough to do anything. It was a pretty pathetic scene around here, lemme tell ya.

Within my family it's been a wide range of symptoms from "basically nothing" to down and out sick for like three days.

[Citizen Rules]

I plan on getting the booster shot as soon as it's available. Supposedly? the Moderna booster vaccine will be half strength, so hopeful it won't hit me so hard like it did last time.

[gbgoodies]

I've noticed that of the people I know who have gotten the booster shot, the ones who seem to be having the worst side effects are the people who got the J&J shot first, and are now getting a different shot for the booster.

[kgaard]

I'm getting my booster this evening, so if it's like my previous shots, I'll feel pretty terrible tomorrow but basically fine by Thanksgiving. Unless someone asks me to help out then, in which case my symptoms could linger. :shifty:

[Yoda]

It's been about six months since my vaccination, and I'm thinking of getting a booster soon.

I probably would have already but there's a lot going on over the next few weeks so it would be a real problem to feel like crap for a few days. Obviously that's something you just deal with for the vaccine initially, but since it's not entirely clear what kind of difference the booster makes, I'm going to try to find a convenient time to risk that.

I haven't really looked into the specifics, but if it's as easy as the first one (eventually) was, and only requires one shot, then it should be about as pleasant as these kinds of things can be.

[Flicker]

Covid cases are skyrocketing in Switzerland. To be fair, we have a very powerful and very wealthy extreme-right, heavily campaigning in favor of the disease (against vaccines, against sanitary measures, etc). We're used to them saturating public spaces with their costly racist propaganda, but they recently switched the rhetoric from "oh noes my neighbor has an accent" to "oh noes my doctor has a needle". Always the good fight (last year it was "oh noes the gays are kissing", 50 years ago it was "oh noes the women are voting"). In the meantime, hospitals are starting to fill up again with Real Men™ gasping for air, diverting resources from the unwillingly ill. But I doubt it will reach the same levels as the previous years. I expect hospitals to cope better this time, and Covid cases to reach a lower ceiling - at least in the most progressive/vaccinated cantons of the country (as charts correlations already tend to show).

[Stirchley]

Covid cases are skyrocketing in Switzerland. To be fair, we have a very powerful and very wealthy extreme-right, heavily campaigning in favor of the disease (against vaccines, against sanitary measures, etc). We're used to them saturating public spaces with their costly racist propaganda, but they recently switched the rhetoric from "oh noes my neighbor has an accent" to "oh noes my doctor has a needle". Always the good fight (last year it was "oh noes the gays are kissing", 50 years ago it was "oh noes the women are voting"). In the meantime, hospitals are starting to fill up again with Real Men™ gasping for air, diverting resources from the unwillingly ill. But I doubt it will reach the same levels as the previous years. I expect hospitals to cope better this time, and Covid cases to reach a lower ceiling - at least in the most progressive/vaccinated cantons of the country (as charts correlations already tend to show).

I always assumed that Switzerland was very normal & neutral. Had no idea there are weirdos there like we have. :rolleyes:

[Yoda]

I think it's pretty common for people to think of other countries (particularly Americans thinking of European countries) as being more sophisticated or simply above certain basic human failings. We only get local news where we live, so we're at quite a remove from the day-to-day living of other places and the annoyances and challenges of living there. But any sizable group of people will have major cultural problems: they're just different problems than ours. We just see that they don't (or, more likely, don't seem to) have problem X, which we do, and the problem Y they do have doesn't even register because it's not much of a problem for us. So the place simply seems better, full stop.

The grass is always greener in Greenland, in other words. ;)

[Stirchley]

I think it's pretty common for people to think of other countries (particularly Americans thinking of European countries) as being more sophisticated or simply above certain basic human failings. We only get local news where we live, so we're at quite a remove from the day-to-day living of other places and the annoyances and challenges of living there. But any sizable group of people will have major cultural problems: they're just different problems than ours. We just see that they don't (or, more likely, don't seem to) have problem X, which we do, and the problem Y they do have doesn't even register because it's not much of a problem for us. So the place simply seems better, full stop.

The grass is always greener in Greenland, in other words. ;)

My above comment was somewhat tongue-in-cheek, but I take your point.

I actually feel safer here in terms of COVID than any European country I can think of, including my own.

[Yoda]

Yeah, we've mucked up any number of things here but the vaccine production and availability has been exceptional, at least.

[Stirchley]

Yeah, we've mucked up any number of things here but the vaccine production and availability has been exceptional, at least.

Yes, I do feel we’re getting somewhere here. Not sure where we’re getting, but we’re definitely chugging along. :p

[Captain Terror]

I read about Italy's COVID parties earlier this week, and couldn't decide if I was relieved or disheartened to learn that the US is not the only nation dealing with boneheads.

[Stirchley]

I read about Italy's COVID parties earlier this week, and couldn't decide if I was relieved or disheartened to learn that the US is not the only nation dealing with boneheads.

I think I read yesterday in the NY Times that the people of Austria are very angry about their lockdown.

I still cannot believe people can get themselves in a tizzy when asked to wear a mask. What is the big deal! :rolleyes:

[Jinnistan]

Urgh. New variant (https://www.cnn.com/2021/11/25/world/covid-variant-south-africa-immune-evasion-transmissibility/index.html).

[Yoda]

Maybe it's time to start thinking about which alphabet we'll use once we've exhausted Greek.

The year is 2033, the Dalet variant is sweeping the nation.

[Nausicaä]

Since the virus started I have not known anyone to be badly affected, last week a family member caught covid and even though double vaccinated and had a booster shot she has it very bad but thankfully not bad enough for hospital, so to think what she would have been like with no vaccination!

:eek:

[Citizen Rules]

Since the virus started I have not known anyone to be badly affected, last week a family member caught covid and even though double vaccinated and had a booster shot she has it very bad but thankfully not bad enough for hospital, so to think what she would have been like with no vaccination!

:eek:Sorry to hear that. Is she an elderly person? Or did she have any pre existing health conditions? Hope she's doing better soon.

[Nausicaä]

In her 50s, and no health conditions as far as she knows. Thanks, hopefully on its way out.

[Captain Steel]

I think I may have just gotten over Omicron.
I only say that because I had the symptoms in the exact same order that the Dr. from South Africa (who allegedly discovered Omicron) named them: fatigue, headache, muscle aches, scratchy throat, occasional cough. Lasted about a week total, with about 2 days with symptoms at their height. (Or maybe it was just a seasonal cold).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HisaMHjRkvk

[Hey Fredrick]

Things you never want to see, the 2 blue lines:

https://i.imgur.com/qLhJvz3.jpg?1

[Nausicaä]

^ Hope you are okay and don't get any of the symptoms.


Finally, compulsory face mask wearing back in England, they shouldn't have got rid of them in the first place.

Hardly anyone continued to wear them when it was lowered to just guidance a few months ago especially where we need them, public transport.


https://thumbs.gfycat.com/PossibleSaltyDevilfish-size_restricted.gif

[Takoma11]

Things you never want to see, the 2 blue lines:

https://i.imgur.com/qLhJvz3.jpg?1

Oh, boo! I hope your symptoms (if any) stay mild.

Fully 1/3 of my class was out today. At least two of them positive, three close contacts. Two others we are not sure why they weren't there. Over 1/6 of our school population was out today. And I am stuck on the phone trying to explain to a parent why we can't just test their child the same day they were exposed and why she has to stay home for several days.

[cricket]

My wife's small office had an outbreak, co-workers and clients with hospitalization that she had close contact with. She had no symptoms so wasn't required to get tested. I mentioned it to my boss, and again she had no symptoms so business as usual for me. No wonder it continues to rapidly spread but what can you do. My real estate agent in his 60's got it pretty bad but is fine now. His doctor told him he would probably have needed hospitalization at least if he wasn't vaccinated.

[Hey Fredrick]

^ Hope you are okay and don't get any of the symptoms.



Oh, boo! I hope your symptoms (if any) stay mild.

Thanks. My + test was the Monday following Thanksgiving, so it's come and gone, I'm no longer contagious, but I had it real bad. Not gonna lie - it was ****ing horrible. I did end up having to stay in the hospital for a couple nights because my lungs were "sh*t" according to the Urgent Care Dr. who checked my vitals, hooked me up to an O2 monitor and within 2 minutes recommended me to ER. There's nothing I can do for you here, she said. When she said that, that was the first time I got real worried, like this is much worse than I thought it was. My 02 levels where hanging out around 90 at rest and would drop to mid to low 80's with any type of movement or talking. This low O2 stuff was going on for 4 days after my fever broke and I thought I had already beat it. With supplemental O2 at the hospitaI was able to maintain O2 levels at 92-93 but the minute I moved or talked it dropped and I got the "BOOP" on the oxygen machine telling me I have low levels again.

I had ct scans of my chest and lungs within an hour of arriving at the ER - chest okay, no clots in my lungs but my lungs, according to the ER Dr., where in very bad shape. They put me upstairs, corner room, and after 2 days of supplemental O2 and monitoring they decided I was good to go home with a rx of steroids to help fix my lungs.

Obviously I looked up my rx when I got home and this is what I found quickly:

"Dexamethasone is a corticosteroid used in a wide range of conditions for its anti-inflammatory and immunosuppressant effects.
It was tested in hospitalized patients with COVID-19 in the United Kingdom’s national clinical trial RECOVERY and was found to have benefits for critically ill patients....for patients on ventilators, the treatment was shown to reduce mortality by about one third, and for patients requiring only oxygen, mortality was cut by about one fifth." https://www.who.int/news-room/questions-and-answers/item/coronavirus-disease-covid-19-dexamethasone

I got home one week ago and feel much better. Can do a little treadmill work, maybe a mile at a time very slow walking and I have to do a lot of deep breathing exercises. My brain is finally getting clear, I mean I never had much to work with anyway but I was in a fog for weeks. I still tire quickly and am not out of the woods quite yet but things are encouraging. My GF never got Covid. If I had to leave my "Room" it was a routine of hand sanitizer and n95 mask and be fast as possible.

[Chypmunk]

Sorry to read you contracted Covid and were quite badly affected, glad that you appear to be on the road to recovery though. Getting my booster this afternoon so this comes as a very timely reminder of just how awful this virus can be. Wishing you well on life returning back to normal as soon as possible.

[Takoma11]

My brain is finally getting clear, I mean I never had much to work with anyway but I was in a fog for weeks. I still tire quickly and am not out of the woods quite yet but things are encouraging. My GF never got Covid. If I had to leave my "Room" it was a routine of hand sanitizer and n95 mask and be fast as possible.

Glad you're on the mend. That all sounds awful. I'm glad (for both your sakes!) that your GF avoided it.

[Stirchley]

^ Hope you are okay and don't get any of the symptoms.


Finally, compulsory face mask wearing back in England, they shouldn't have got rid of them in the first place.

Hardly anyone continued to wear them when it was lowered to just guidance a few months ago especially where we need them, public transport.

In Connecticut we need a mask for public transport (though the driver doesn’t always notice when some idiot is unmasked). Schools, doctors’ offices, etc. require masks. Stores do not & neither do restaurants, coffee shops, etc.

Only place I wear a mask is the one hour I’m at Sunday mass. Some people at mass don’t wear masks so I presume they’re fully vaxxed, but, really, no clue. Two of my good friends (and their families) remain unvaxxed.

Considering wearing my mask more often like I used to do.

[Stirchley]

Thanks. My + test was the Monday following Thanksgiving, so it's come and gone, I'm no longer contagious, but I had it real bad. Not gonna lie - it was ****ing horrible. I did end up having to stay in the hospital for a couple nights because my lungs were "sh*t".

So glad you’re feeling much better what a terrifying experience.

Do you mind me asking: were you fully vaxxed + a booster?

[CringeFest]

after hearing about the experiences of people developing moderate or serious covid, i definetly want to avoid getting it even though there are those who are hardly effected at all, someone i know said they've had worse colds. I just made myself sick from drinking 7-10 shots of vodka yesterday, i was looking to pass out after anxiety and stress kept me awake all night. Drunk guitar was fun. Happilly, this morning i was able to recover after getting myself off (for me, going number 3 does cure headaches :D), vomiting, and eating some scrambled eggs and tomatoes.



I haven't overrall changed my opinion that I am much more frightened by what isolation is still doing to people psychologically. Given all the strains, there's still a chance that I will still get it even though i'm vaccinated. Within the next couple months i intend to go get another booster.

[John McClane]

I went near the mall today, and it was insane how packed it was given the news about Omnicron. I went in a few less traveled stores on the perimeter. Masks were on maybe 10-15% at best. I wore one every time I went inside.

The science on mask coverings is solid, and it’s a minor inconvenience for a great deal of protection.

[MovieMeditation]

COVID is just a bitch now man…..

It’s not too long ago that we opened up society completely here in Denmark, removing all restrictions and basically being back to normal.

Now though, as expected, we are looking at what could be the worst state we’ve ever been in. Every single day now we keep having the highest number of newly infected and the restrictions are coming back hard.

I always thought it was so utterly stupid removing every single restriction. And welll, of course the combination of the season and the arrival of omicron hasn’t made things better…

I sure hope I’m not infected before Christmas. Definitely don’t want to celebrate that alone in isolation.

[doubledenim]

I grew up loving M.A.S.K.

I enjoy not breathing after strangers. “Stranger’s Breath, the new secondhand smoke! Outlaw it!”

[Mesmerized]

I had covid back in January. I don't want it again. This sucks.

[Yoda]

Very little policy seems to dampen cases. At this point I care primarily about things like hospitalizations and deaths. Reducing those seems to have been the primary (and lasting) benefit of the vaccines.

[CringeFest]

Very little policy seems to dampen cases.


what do you mean by this? I tend to assume i know very little about science/outcomes/statistics.

[Yoda]

what do you mean by this? I tend to assume i know very little about science/outcomes/statistics.
I mean that cases seem to spike or wane in various places that don't seem to intuitively correlate with, say, their local mask requirements. There are a lot of potential reasons for this (everything from "they don't actually work that well" to "people aren't going to listen to them even if they work well"), though I think it's probably at least a few of them at once.

Or, alternatively, maybe policy can make a big difference, but we simply don't have the ability to isolate that difference with any confidence, which for our purposes is basically the same thing.

[CringeFest]

I mean that cases seem to spike or wane in various places that don't seem to intuitively correlate with, say, their local mask requirements. There are a lot of potential reasons for this (everything from "they don't actually work that well" to "people aren't going to listen to them even if they work well"), though I think it's probably at least a few of them at once.

Or, alternatively, maybe policy can make a big difference, but we simply don't have the ability to isolate that difference with any confidence, which for our purposes is basically the same thing.


your thoughts on policy overrall seem to jive with the research i've done on the topic. It seems like isolation just slows down the spread of the virus, and it seems rather obvious to me that you need some very heavy-handed dictatorship to achieve the level of isolation that some seem to want. For example, within the US the strictness of policy within states doesn't seem to have much of an effect on the number of people who die from COVID overtime. If mandates do actually have an effect, then i think the good that comes out of it is offset by both the short and long term bad things that happen as a result, and it's not really calculable.


As far as masks are concerned, the data seems to indicate that they're certainly effective in curbing the spread at least temporarily, and it does matter which masks and how they are used. It seems that people liking eating and talking kinda makes this one a hopeless endvour too.



However, I think vaccines and ecouraging people to spend time outdoors is the healthiest of the control measures. It is really upsetting that there's so much intentional polarization and lieing about the vaccines.

[Citizen Rules]

your thoughts on policy overrall seem to jive with the research i've done on the topic. It seems like isolation just slows down the spread of the virus, and it seems rather obvious to me that you need some very heavy-handed dictatorship to achieve the level of isolation that some seem to want. For example, within the US the strictness of policy within states doesn't seem to have much of an effect on the number of people who die from COVID overtime.I'm guessing you're not in the U.S.? In my state Washington U.S.A. we have mandatory mask laws and people are required to wear them in stores and buildings. There's a big sign saying they are required in front of many stores...I have a joke I say everytime I go out in public, "you're required to wear your mask, or not!"...Despite it being a mandate about 1/3 of the people break the mandate and don't wear a mask. Some wear a mask but only on their chin! No wonder Covid keeps spreading, especially at Christmas time when the stores are packed with shoppers and many of them are not vaccinated or wearing mask.

[CringeFest]

I'm guessing you're not in the U.S.? In my state Washington U.S.A. we have mandatory mask laws and people are required to wear them in stores and buildings. There's a big sign saying they are required in front of many stores...I have a joke I say everytime I go out in public, "you're required to wear your mask, or not!"...Despite it being a mandate about 1/3 of the people break the mandate and don't wear a mask. Some wear a mask but only on their chin! No wonder Covid keeps spreading, especially at Christmas time when the stores are packed with shoppers and many of them are not vaccinated or wearing mask.


no, i do live in the US. Why did you guess not?

[Citizen Rules]

no, i do live in the US. Why did you guess not?I don't know why I just kind of thought you were in N. Europe.

[CringeFest]

I don't know why I just kind of thought you were in N. Europe.


The sad peasant/farmer girl in my avatar might have done that...

[Citizen Rules]

The sad peasant/farmer girl in my avatar might have done that...That's weird because I was going to say maybe it was your avatar, I even wrote that but then I deleted it. So yeah you have a N. European avatar🙂

Now I wonder what my avatar makes me seem?

[CringeFest]

That's weird because I was going to say maybe it was your avatar, I even wrote that but then I deleted it. So yeah you have a N. European avatar🙂

Now I wonder what my avatar makes me seem?


The interesting thing is that woman is portuguese in the movie, which is western european.


I concluded that you probably like Citizen Kane, and might have an antique fetish but we know you are way to frugal for that ;)

[Captain Steel]

That's weird because I was going to say maybe it was your avatar, I even wrote that but then I deleted it. So yeah you have a N. European avatar🙂

Now I wonder what my avatar makes me seem?

Begging the question... who is that in your latest avatar, Rules?
It doesn't look like Orson or Dan Duryea (although it could be either or neither).