Does Anyone Do Drugs?

Heheheh, ah... the smoking thing

Yeah, i like to think it's coz i started down that smokey-path when i still had my mind wide shut that i still struggle to kick that nefarious sh*t. (That drug's still got me mainly licked, dammit. Damn natural-opioid-release :grrr: )

See, there's the funny thing tho - on the intelligence thing... the only obvious influence 'intelligence' should have is in consciously making sure you don't get hooked in the first place. But... the path that takes people to dependancy's depths is a complex thing methinks...

Some studies suggest that only 30% of heroin users become addicts. Is that coz the non-addicts consciously know when to step back? - is it coz they're not biologically predisposed to addiction's trap? - is it coz their other life habits mean they can manage their chemical-spiritual self, so they don't need to live in heroin's (etc's) den of all-round ill-health?

Dunno. I'm guessing it might be a mix of those three. Addiction is actually such a loose term that, whether the risk is getting hooked chemically or habitually, those three things might define your addiction-evading possiblities: Your life strategies, environment, and biological tendencies...

I reckon some people are more prone to depression than others - i know some people have to deal with more **** than others - and i'm sure that having both those physical and social situations together makes you more likely to fall at addictions door than others are.

To my mind, it's the people who overcome those combined snares and traps every day that are paragons of 'intelligence' at its best - so in those terms, i'd say - yes

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The worst side effect of smoking pot is that you'll eventually listen to Phish, and even claim to enjoy it. That should be the highlight of the government's anti-drug campaign in schools.

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You're not hopeless...

He didnt say it would happen but it sure sounds like thats what he meant, or atleast i think thats how the casual reader would perceive it.

thats the thing though, its not accurate, if we were talking about full blown addiction then i would totally agree, but thats not what this thread is about.
actually i think its pretty much the other way around, its the non-users that are being judgmental. drug use is personal choice and although it can lead to addiction but for a person with a non addictive personality its a much more interesting way to spend a friday night.

actually its based more on the persons personality. (wether they have an addictive or non addictive one)
same thing as alcoholism its a disease

A very, very casual reader, perhaps. If someone skimmed Tim's words and misunderstood, that's not his fault.


What are you basing that on? The thread is about drugs, which refers to both recreational and habitual use. Tim hasn't said anything false, misleading, or off-topic.


Some of the non-users are being judgemental, sure. And some of the users are being paranoid and defensive.

That said, I really don't know what you're saying here. What does it mean to say that drug use is a "personal choice"? Isn't everything? The issue (and it's a legitimate one) is whether that choice is foolish, dangerous, or unimportant, and issuing blanket dismissals of anyone who's spoken ill of drug use isn't helping to answer that question.


I'm not going to contend that pot's dangerous (clearly, it's not, as long as cars are kept out of the mix, I suppose). I'd argue that it's largely pointless, though, and that habitual smoking is not a problem in and of itself, but a symptom of a problem. I don't think it's ever a good sign when someone routinely feels the need to distract themselves with any substance.

[quote=Yoda]

What are you basing that on? The thread is about drugs, which refers to both recreational and habitual use.
[quote]
My personal experiences, and I cant speak for you but im sure you havent dabbled or you would have taken a step back and said that all of reporters comments were a fair bit exagerated.( but I agree that they would be true if the person were an addict)

[quote=Yoda]
That said, I really don't know what you're saying here. What does it mean to say that drug use is a "personal choice"? Isn't everything? The issue (and it's a legitimate one) is whether that choice is foolish, dangerous, or unimportant, and issuing blanket dismissals of anyone who's spoken ill of drug use isn't helping to answer that question.

[quote]
Your 100% right,everything is a personal choice, and the fact that people are saying that you are wrong for doing it, irks me.
Now then to the issue of this thread, i think that it depends on the person. It is foolish in the sense that it doesnt need to be done, but that arguement could be used against pretty much anything, skateboarding, skydiving hell even stepping outside of the house would be considered foolish to some. Dangerous? it certainly can be (addiction, overdose) but its a risk the taker is obviously aware of and if the person isnt getting it off of some random chap of the street chances are they wouldnt sell you anything that could hurt you. Im not sure what you meant in regards to the unimportant part. and what are the blanket dismissals that im issuing?

As i said before, drugs are there, be careful with them because it is a double sided sword, dont pressure anyone and most importantly dont be to judgmental unless your trying to help them (which i havent had to do, because its just recreational use).

edit: how come the quotes didnt come in right?

But they weren't exaggerated. As you've said, they're true in regards to addicts, and Tim's point was not that everyone who tries drugs will become an addict, but that everyone who tries drugs runs that risk. Where's the exaggeration?


I'd say it goes beyond just not needing to be done. It's something that doesn't need to be done, can form strong chemical addictions, and can even become expensive. I think that makes it a little more foolish than skateboarding, to borrow your example. How many lives has skateboarding ruined compared to drug use?

Another issue is that the consequences of drug use cannot be reliably contained to the user. We all know that when addictions are formed, addicts are capable of going to extreme lengths to satisfy their needs. This obviously won't happen to everyone, but the fact is that the risk you talk about can easily extend to other people close to the user.


Well, you seem to disagree with some of the things being said, but I don't think you've really explaining why as of yet. You've made it clear that you're upset with people for disapproving of drug use, but that doesn't really show us why they're wrong for doing so. The downsides of drug use are obvious and (sometimes) quite serious. The upsides are vague and temporary. What compelling argument is there for it? So far all I've heard is that it can make for an "interesting Friday night."


You need to use closing quote tags. They look like opening quote tags, but with a slash. Like this (without the asterisk):

[*/quote]

Lets hope you are one of the recreation users

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Health is the greatest gift, contentment the greatest wealth, faithfulness the best relationship.
Buddha

Never touched the stuff. Ever. Not even a puff. I'm all natural baby.

Yeah, weed is natural. Probably moreso than a lot of the food you eat.

Well, I drink alot of those Protein shakes with a few preservatives added in. My bad.

Well, I'll pipe in here. I know a fair amount of people who were able to work through a tragedy or a serious problem in a relationship while using the drug MDMA (ecstasy). For instance, one girl was able to cope much easier with the death of her parent after a couple of sessions on the drug, while talking about the death with some close friends. From what she says, she was able to face things that her "straight mind" just couldn't deal with. After making some progress, use of the drug as discontinued with no addiction and minimal side effects (loss of sleep, some spaceyness for a day or two afterwards). She feels E helped her deal with an extremely depressing time, and not in the sense that she would just get high and forget about her problems, but really the opposite, that the altered state of mind allowed her to focus on her issues in a different light and deal with getting over them and truely facing what it all meant. She explained it as some of these weird barriers she had built up about the death just sort of disappearing, as she didn;t approach the issue in the same "thought rut" she had been in. Clearly this may have been done without the drug, but it helped in this case, and she is an upstanding, college educated woman with a great job and a healthy social life today.

Another example was an (unnamed) couple who had been together for a few years and weren't doing so well together. Lots of fights, misunderstandings and miscommunication going on, and a break-up was imminent. Rolling (taking E) together was suggested as a possibility for getting past some of the communication barriers, and they gave it a shot. After a nice 8 hour roll, a new couple emerged, with solid, truthful communication set up between them. To this day, they are a happy, honest, open couple with excellent communication, good jobs, a nice place, and a high level of respect for each other for who they are, not who they thought they should be. I can personally attest to this, as I am one half of the couple. We tried it a few more time over the course of a year, and then quit using it, as it lost it's flare, and we couldn't learn anymore from it. I don't regret it at all, and am pretty thankful for the experiences that helped us grow together when all looked lost...

I am also of the mind some (moderate) pot use can enhance creativity in art, as it does for many I know. Like Sam Jackson said in Jackie Brown, though, to much of that **** will rob you of your ambition....

[EDIT] So...ya, Sort of some personal info here, and giving me **** about my life choices (I stand behind every one I have made, good or bad) is not recommended to keep OUR relationships healthy

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It is understood that there can be a few such cases, i'll never deny that some people could "successfully" use drugs for a brief time and not become an addict. However, on the whole, the odds of that actually happening are miniscule compared to the likelyhood of them becoming addicted, or failing to solve whatever problems they have.

Even though drugs and alcohol can be helpful in some cases, more often than not the user will cause harm to themselves or others.

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Several of my essay marks most definatly back up this statement
Indeed.

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Pumpkins scream in the DEAD of night!

Not buying it. Sounding like a broken record here, but again it's education and maturity that comes into play here in the case of some substances. I will concede that some of the harsher narcotics are pretty much a guaranteed addiction, even if only used a couple of times, or maybe even as few times as once. But, that said, I firmly believe that not only can an educated adult can research and weigh possibilties about those substances that aren't physically addictive and choose if they want to try it. Of course there are risks, like in many things, but an adult should be able allowed to make the choice for themselves.

Mental addiction is another story, and I feel over-use of anything can result in an addiction to that thing. Drugs aside, this thing could be anything from food to a hobby to a person, and someone could get mentally addicted to it. This is why drugs should be approched just like anything else as far as moderation and over-use are concerned. To much of anything is bad for a body, so I see no reason to segregate drugs as a special case.

I guess it all comes down to the fact that I don't think some other person knows how I should live my life. If I was a child, it would be different, as children don't know how to live their own lives yet, but grown people should be allowed to think for themselves.

As a brief aside, take antibacterial soap. At some point, someone decided they could market soap using fear and paranoia, by convincing people that even though things had been fine before anti-bacterial soap, even though there was no raging epidemic of people keeling over dead after using a McDonalds bathroom, that if they told people there COULD be a problem with bacteria around washrooms and kitchens, millions would buy into the story, and demand something to fight this new threat with. They would demand the restaurnts they go to use it, and they would buy it themselves to bring into their homes. I have never anti-bacterial soap (it might actually be bad for you, now that research on the soap itself is actually being done), and I am fine. I don;t get sick all the time, I haven't mutated, My kitchen sink isn't an ecto-soup about to form new lifeforms. Millions can say the same on this planet. In other words, it was bull****.

Back to drugs. If I take a plant, and burn it, and inhale the vapors, I am putting my health and lungs at risk, because I am introducing a contaminant into a relatively sterile environment. I know this risk and accept it. People who drink take risks, people who smoke butts take the same risks. That is their choice. Meanwhile, let me see how things are going in my life, because that is actual reality, not what people tell me is reality. I am fine. I feel good, have energy, I go to work everyday and do my job well. I pay my bills, I cook, clean and function in society just like anyone else. So I have taken this plant and inhaled it, and my life continues along as it has, or with improvements (like my sweet new place!). Things are good. What is wrong about this? I see nothing. I am in no more danger than someone who has had a couple of drinks, or smoked a couple of ciggs. I am, however, much hungrier than the guy who had the drinks. Again, it was bull****. Now if I were to let this thing get out of hand, like with any of this stuff, booze, ciggs...the danger would grow, and bad things would start to happen in my life. Yet it doesn't, because of the choices I make.

But see, in this world, people think they can decide if the choices another adult makes are right or wrong. To these people I say, take a long walk on a short pier. They can definitely make their own choices, but not mine, see? If I shrivle up and get cancer and die, I will do it in my own space, and won't bother them any, but the just have to insert their presence, and try to control how people think and live. That is the real problem, as far as I can tell. Totalitarian psychos.

I am not calling anyone here that, just saying these type of people are the problem. And really, they can go ahead and keep thinking that, I just want them to leave me alone.

I don't know the statistics exactly, but I have a feeling that this is utter bull****.

I think he's been informed by the 'Just say don't-want-to-know' school of thought

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EDIT: Here's an example of how exagerrated his take on addiction is...

Let's take heroin as an example. I made this claim earlier: Most people who try heroin don't become addicts

I can't track down my original sources right now, but here's one that backs up the general claim:

'Opioids could offer mass market pain relief'
[Issue 2484 of New Scientist magazine, 29 January 2005, page 19]
Rest assured i'll try and track down the study she's quoting (), but her claims tally with various other bits of research i've checked out.

Where she talks about highest-risk age group - she's talking about the young, coz its during our formative years that the vast majority of addictions become established.

Most of us agree that...


1 You need to approach all drugs in an 'intelligent' and informed way (i.e. when you're old and experienced enough, for a start)

2 They can all be habit forming (Because, in fact, anything that affects the bodies reward system can be habit forming. You can get 'addicted' to being hit in the balls with a stiletto heel if you really try )


Yoda previously asked the most important question:
What are the benefits of illegal drugs, aside from their 'rewarding' allure?
(i.e. fun on a friday night etc)


Sedai answered with some fine points about...

Ecstacy
-being very good at stimulating communication and bonding (and indeed, it was used for things like marriage counselling before it became illegal)

Marijuana
-being useful for stimulating creative expression. (To be more specific on that, i'd say it causes a state of mind where more 'globalised' connections are made, which makes the creation of 'new' ideas more likely. It also allows for engrossed/attentive fixation on tiny and otherwise 'mundane' objects and details)


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These drugs, of course, have downsides, and even downsides to their benefits too. It's how you use them that's important. On an occasional-use basis, practically all illegal drugs can be used in a practical and beneficial way. (Although you can start arguing about the meaning of 'benefit' when it's fighter pilots taking amphetamines so they can fly all night and all day, etc ).

Drugs almost always stimulate extreme versions and aspects of states that are achievable while 'straight' (IE during and after sex, or after 30 hours without sleep, or during some religious chanting with a really good beat ). Yods suggested, way back in the thread, that it's possible to appreciate/understand the effects of drugs from the outside. I'd say: Not quite - there's no substitute for experience. The extreme nature of the response many create means our daily experiences can't always equate. And with that in mind...


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Hallucinogens
-A 'classical' reaction to most types of 'trip' is a feeling of overwhelming oneness: An appreciation for your surroundings and your interconectedness with them in all their complexity. (best experienced in a 'natural' environment )
-Exploration of repressed thoughts. Disturbing as this process can be, most types of 'trip' will also unearth thought processes and memories that are tightly locked up in our 'unconscious'. It's this aspect of hallucinogens that often turns trips into formative, and even moral, 'tests of character'.

Again, both of the above experiences are potentially achievable without drugs (though rarely with the same extreme impact). But let me give you an example of just how far into beneficial territory these two powerful aspects can go (helped by the fact that they can be consciously induced, at a chosen time and place, just by swallowing)...



What's important about this rite is the way they have learnt to use this stupefyingly potent drug.

We can only hope that if and when it is fully introduced to Western society that it is applied so wisely. You don't have to believe in the visions of the last part of the rite to recognise the benefit of its self-examination insights. And hopefully you see the benefit in the way it requires social support and bonding to become a beneficial personal 'rite' - and indeed that it engenders this social-bond, because everyone helps each other through their own long-dark-night of the soul.

The things i'm talking about here extend beyond pure gratification (and biological 'reward'). They are intrinsically beneficial. Our societies would do well to consider enfranchising adult, informed use of all potentially-beneficial drugs - on the understanding that the individual's gain should benefit society too - and that we can stop each other's use if we start using them like mugs .

@Sedai, i'm not refuting the fact that sometimes, drugs can be helpful, or at least not do any severe or long-term damage. I'm just saying that the risks should not be ignored because of the cases where drugs helped. I understand that an adult can make an educated decision about whether or not to use drugs. It's their health, and their decision, and they can, as you said "shrivel up, and get cancer and die". But when the drugs make someone mentally unstable, or take away their control of their actions, other people are put at risk. That is where drug use becomes wrong, in my book. So if someone wants to get stoned, or totally ****-faced, fine by me, but it's wrong to do it behind the wheel of a car, or with a gun in hand.

@Golgot, Regarding the Heroin study you quoted; again, i don't particularly care what happens to the user, it's their choice and problem, but i'd like to point out that a single dose of Heroin can be lethal, so the length of the addiction is far less relevant.
As to the "beneficial drugs", i don't doubt that in some, even many cases, drugs can have a beneficial effect outside of normal gratification and possible solve psychological problems. I couldn't agree more that one should be old and experienced enough to weigh the risks and benefits of drug use. The problem is the vast number of teens taking drugs. I think that many adults are capable of safely using drugs, but when a 16 year old gets drunk and runs over a good friend of your's you understand that that teenager made a crappy choice. So I agree, an intelligent person that makes an informed decision for the right reasons can and probably should take drugs, but there's no way you can deny that drugs have ****ed up a lot of people's lives, even if some of those people never took drugs.