Movie Tab II

Thanks for the email Yoda. Here is a response

If I need to get it out of that part of the forum, that's fine.

__________________
If I had a dollar for every existential crisis I've ever had, does money really even matter?

The 39 Steps (Hitchcock, 1935)

The 39 Steps takes a while to get into because of its careful attention to incidental characters and mise-en-scène. It starts paying off about a third of the way in and keeps you guessing how the main character's going to unwind the espionage plot right up till the end. It's pretty absurd but has some absolutely clever and charming episodes. I'm not going to give it a just yet.

+



The Searchers (Ford, 1956)

There are some very ugly people in this, not least of which is John Wayne's hate-fueled anti-hero. I did find the story and much of the drama pretty engaging but what pushed this over the edge for me was the cinematography and visual storytelling based around wide-open spaces and haunting scenes of dark and light.

I still don't get how The Searchers is considered the best western of all time.

__________________
"Loves them? They need them, like they need the air."

I really don't feel like I've seen enough or understand "the western" well enough to say much to that except that there are a few westerns that I like better and I've only seen maybe 10 or 12 (including all Leone's and a couple by Altman, so most that I have seen are from a later period than The Searchers).

I could see a case for it though. It looks fantastic. and by that I don't just mean pretty pictures, I mean the use of interior space to build against the huge contrasting scope of exteriors and make it even bigger, right from the opening shot of the movie was really breathtaking. It may be almost a cliche by now but I found that a pretty powerful and lasting image and from then on I looked forward to any scene that would have light from the outside intruding into a dingy interior. Not just that but the exterior photography as well was very high quality and reminded me of the best movie ever, which came out 6 years after The Searchers.

The story and commentary I could maybe see a case for. There was an interesting argument about its social content and perceived message by rufnek and uconjack, both of whom are definitely more appreciative and steeped in the genre than I am, and possibly more attuned to that way of looking at movies. This was a couple years ago in a John Wayne appreciation thread, starting here.

For me I thought the story was compelling enough as melodrama, I mean I thought it exploited the drama of the central relationship/dual conflicts -- two buddies in hostile territory supporting each other but also having some very deep-seated differences leading to tension -- effectively enough but I don't think I'd call it great on the basis of its themes or story alone.

It does make me want to see more old westerns, though I guess you could say that started before I saw this even with The Strawberry Roan anyway.

Or The Last Seduction ...

__________________
It's what you learn after you know it all that counts. - John Wooden
My IMDb page

The Searchers is considered a classic great western for other reasons than what lines said, even though he was certainly correct in his assessment. Besides watching westerns, you have to comprehend John Ford's sentimentality. If anything, I think that Spielberg is considered as a sentimental heir to both Capra and Ford. Now, I agree that they all have sentimental tendencies, but just look at The Searchers, Meet John Doe and Empire of the Sun. They do contain some sentimental passages, but they are each considerably darker than most (if not all) of the directors' films.

Westerns are basically about man against nature and man against himself (nature part 2). The best ones are very basic and spectacular visually. Then again, something like Johnny Guitar, although striking, isn't like a normal western visually, but it has more psychoanalytical baggage than almost any film I've ever seen.

Thanks mark, now I know where to start when I eventually get around to Capra and Spielberg.

What would you say is the most sentimental of Ford's movies? Which do you think is the best sentimental movie of his?

I've not seen it, but I think I've heard that it's The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance. But watch Cheyenne Autumn as well, just because.

I'd say that TMWSLV is more elegiac than sentimental.

My Darling Clementine maybe?

__________________
"Critics are like eunuchs in a harem; they know how the Tatty 100 is done, they've seen it done every day, but they're unable to do it themselves." - Brendan Behan

Swamp Thing (Craven, 1982) or a on the trash and laugh scale.



I used to watch this constantly when I was a youngster, and I loved it back then. I hadn't seen it since the early 80s, and it certainly has not aged well. It really feels like 5 different films, being incredibly uneven throughout. The action scenes seem like unused outtakes from the A-team, and the final reel is laugh out loud bad.

We had a friend over, and the aim was to have a fun trash flick night, but after Swamp Thing, we had to bail on the trash idea for the evening...\

Next up was...

Blast of Silence (Baron, 1961)



Harsh, dark noir about a hit man on the job in Manhattan during the Christmas Holiday. Written, directed and played by Allen Baron, someone I hadn't been exposed to yet. Some great camera work in this one, lots of yummy shadows and memorable characters, as well. The voice over is really fun, too.

__________________

Can I add my thoughts to the discussion on The Searchers?

Google it and you'll find many who think the film is overrated and some who think it's not good at all. So people that don't get it aren't alone!

It did become a university staple after the praise of such men as Spielberg. I even studied it at the University of Maryland back in 1978.

For me, I think it's great because in a way, it ended the western as we knew it. Ironic, no? John Ford and John Wayne ending the very mythology they created. Ethan's anti-hero is a forerunner to the anti-heroes of the 70s; it seems to be one of the first, or the first, to really look at the racism of Manifest Destiny. Ethan is and will always be an outsider. At one point, he desecrates an Indian burial ground, cementing his fate as outsider. No longer will society allow such racism. That final shot of the man who cannot come inside the home encapsulates the most basic of western themes: the western hero as outsider; the man who saves society only to be kept outside of it. (He's a bit like Moses....) He symbolizes the end of the western frontier as lawless and at the same time, asks us to think about how we created a society where we destroyed another people in the process.

It always struck me as the first apologist western, with the much clearer apology coming many years later with Dances With Wolves. (A film I also love but will agree The Searchers was obviously more complex.)

I love it. But that's just me.

I'd probably say that Ford's How Green Was My Valley is his best sentimental film. As far as most sentimental, I'll have to think on that. My fave Ford is The Quiet Man.

Lines, mark, and tramp. All awesome posts.

I dunno. I'll have to think about it. I'm not going to deny its masterfulness, IN PARTS, but I also won't deny it's flaws, either technically or ideologically. Some of the scenes just didn't work for me. The music was a failure in many placed, though it succeeded in the end, as did the famed cinematography disappoint and succeed. Just because Ford has great subjects for the rock formations doesn't mean the compositions were anything special. I just can't see it as THE BEST western as I said.

It's definitely a classic and a great film. I need to watch more westerns in general, but I'm not going to say it's the best western. I don't know that much so I won't list the films I think are better.

Characterization of Ethan Edwards, and obsession. He's an Ahab set in a western.

One thing I dislike about many of Ford's films is his sense of humor. It seems at odds with much of the drama, and at times it's overly macho to the point of being self-parody.

__________________
"A candy colored clown!"
Member since Fall 2002
Top 100 Films, clicky below

http://www.movieforums.com/community...ad.php?t=26201

I would say The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance is his most sentimental, but also most self-reflective.

I think similar themes of being an outsider were explored in Shane, which is a much stronger film in my thoughts.

The difference, to me, is how Ethan is an outsider -- you can't escape his racism that is shown throughout the film. The audience has very conflicting feelings about him and I'm still amazed that Wayne played such a part. (It kind of reminds me of Eastwood's role in Unforgiven.) That last image also seems to say that Wayne is an outsider because society says he is; Shane seems to choose his status because of his own morality. Wayne looks so sad as he stands there at the end;; he sighs and walks away from the home, accepting his status as opposed to Shane's iconic riding off into the sunset. Ethan is being punished.... the ultimate outsider.

Now ARE their conflicting feelings? I mean, the Indians are portrayed as being real ********, to say the least.

Also, I can't help but feel that Wayne chose to stay an outsider because of himself; not necessarily society. Basically, with him walking off into the desert it's like he's not coming back. Almost like he's going to die. Like he's done this one last thing, and now he can go die.

Unfortunately, Shane is another film that I can't see has being THE BEST, though I think it is considered so more because of it's influence. Maybe I even like Searchers better... Need... to... think...

To me the ending looked more like Ethan is equated with the mythological wildness and independence that that western landscape seems to represent for some. To the extent that I found it to be a "statement" that is. It doesn't even really seem all that bittersweet to me as Ethan's dark side is pretty much forgiven with his reconciliation with the youngest daughter.

Also the view of racism in the film seemed pretty bad both in content (no really noticeable non-white actors or characters, even to the point where the main Indian character is played by a German; all the Indians are pretty stock villains; the "squaw wife" ends up being sympathetic more because you feel bad that she's the butt of a pretty excessive joke than because she's portrayed as a real character) and form (the fact that this is a pretty classic "revenge" narrative. Racism as "revenge" for atrocities committed by the Indians). The fact that you never really learn much about Ethan's motivations or even that major aspects of his relationship with his family are only hinted at, to me that just seemed like a device to make him larger-than-life. Perhaps the ending was saying that for "America and freedom" you need both the wildness of Ethan and the domesticity of Martin. I don't know, that discussion is just not what sold the movie for me.

Edit: beat me to it a little bit PN, but I think I agree with your above post.

Hey tramp, what class was it that you watched The Searchers in?

I feel like most of you have a better understanding of this movie in it's context as a western (and as mark points out in John Ford's personal vision) than I do, and maybe that's where you're coming from.