Your opinions of Muslims and Islam

I've been on this forum for a while now and have really enjoyed discussing movies with people who view them in the same way and aren't just "casual" fans. Sorry, that sentence just made me seem like a pretentious twat.

Anyhow, I've looked at the other sections on the forum and can see discussions based on religion, free will, politics and terrorism are really popular. Of course, Islam and it's surrounding issues have been bought up. Some have been misinformed, some semi-offensive and some just plain silly. All of this comes from a possibly lack of understanding of the religion and the constant negative propaganda by our media.

So I'm curious, what are your opinions about the religion and its followers? The main reason I ask is not only that it is such a talked about religion but because here we all share the same major interest (film) and seem to be a well educated and thoughtful group.

Now, please keep things civil and try and express your opinions as thoughtfully as possibly, we don't want to cause offense. And if there are any serious questions about Islam and Muslims in general, ask away.

I don't mind American or European Muslims (other than the ones who try to impose laws), or the religion of Islam. But I think it's clear that middle eastern countries are far behind, comparable to African nations. And most media "propaganda" don't concern themselves with the religion, but with how the middle eastern majority chose to represent themselves. Look at Afganistan, they've a Herion dealer in charge, Iran (even though its making progress) has Ahmijimdad as its leader. Syria has its chaos, Libyans acted like savages who don't deserve fair elections, and Egypt, well I just preferred Mombaric. Then we have Saudia Arabia which is one of the most mysoginistic countries out there, and Pakistan who is fine with supporting terrorsists. Then perhaps the worst of the bunch Palestine which is really a big group of radical terrorists, who are now the loved ones. All the surrounding countries pushing for Palestines independence aren't even accepting refugees (except Jordan). I understand Europe used to be highly similar, but in the present the way these countries present themselves isn't anything to be loved. There are still stonings in sevral of these nations, and Sharia law still plays a role. So these are who people have a negative input towards, not just a Muslim on the streets.

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Donnie hit it on the head. In the western world, sane Muslims outnumber the crazies. But in the Holy land not only do the crazies have the power, but they seem to outnumber the non extremists, and are VERY vocal. Get out of line, you're dead. As such it presents the idea every Muslim in a Muslim nation as a bunch of extremists. And those mother ****ers can't wait to get to Allah. And they like to take mother ****ers with them.

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People confuse Extremists with genuine believers.

Extremists are a dangerous race of psychopaths who genuinely believe what they do is in the name of their religion.


Muslim, Islam, Christianity, Judaism all point to the same thing... God... love of all things... not wishing harm on others etc.

These "Extremists" have completely the wrong idea of "religion" and in which case they are dangerous.

Quite simply... they are "Terrorists".

That is all.

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Pardon?

I'm not talking terrorists as in the ones that kill for there religion, but terrorists as in ones who attack civilians. The people have been responsible for countless missle strikes a bus bombings. It's the weather underground with a more greedy cause.

I don't know if 'radical terrorists' is an appropriate term for the Palestinians, but nonetheless their poor treatment and repression of Muslims within their borders is rather reproachable and I can see why it might be a cause for concern. Ultimately I think that Western nations should have been more accepting of the Jews themselves back when Israel was created; simply taking them in would have prevented a lot of trouble down the road. I'm not saying the Jews don't deserve a 'homeland', but I think setting it up in such an anti-Semitic, hostile environment was pretty much the worst option imaginable. Granted, the discovery of the Holocaust caused something of a rush to get the Jews a homeland, but the situation really could have been handled differently.

As to my opinion of Muslims in general, I've got no problem with them. My frustration with religious radicals is the same regardless of their religion, but I can at least understand where all the hatred towards the US comes from in that region (constant scavenging for oil). It's a pretty valid reason, but obviously my empathy only goes so far for nations that want to see mine collapse, so it's a moral conflict for me.

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With the exception of Turkey, Muslim countries have not so far created admirable governments. And they go ballistic if their leader is mocked or criticized, far beyond what Christians would do if Jesus was the target. Muslims in this country I don't have a problem with. But there are too many nutjobs in the Middle East. For whatever reason the religion spawns the worst kind of extremists in huge numbers.

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I think some of you need to actually read up on the history of Islam. You might find some answers there.

Also, a lot of this reads like the news.

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"Don't be so gloomy. After all it's not that awful. Like the fella says, in Italy for 30 years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder, and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly love - they had 500 years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock."

I respect the good intentions of the OP, but if there was ever a thread title that screamed 'Troll Magnet' it's this one.

Also, it's insensitive to the members or potential members of the forum who are themselves Muslim.

I'd be pretty taken aback by a thread entitled 'Your Opinions of Jews and Judaism' - and also if there were some of the same uninformed/misinformed responses.

I can think of lots of good books that might give us an insight as to why we're apparently so comfortable with a thread like this. Two are by Edward Said: Covering Islam and Orientalism.

It wouldn't bother me if there was a thread about Jews and Judaism.

It doesn't matter what the history of Muslims was several centuries ago. The reality is there is something fundamentally wrong with what is going on in Muslim society today. And you can't separate the religion from it. Is it a peace loving religion? It is as practiced by some and certainly not as practiced by others.

Christians implemented western imperialism and colonialism. Christians invaded, conquered and controlled South America, Africa and much of Asia - with the bible in one hand and a gun in the other. They committed almost complete genocides in North America and Australia. They enslaved and disenfranchised countless millions. In Europe over the centuries, Christians tortured and killed countless millions of 'non-believers.'

More recently, the United States, largely led by Christian leaders, bombed and killed a couple of million Vietnamese, Cambodians and Laotians. And we can talk about the Iraq invasion too. George W. Bush and his predecessors are/were all church-going Christians.

Does this lead us to make snap judgments about Christianity and Christians? I hope not, because Christianity as a religion - not as it has been twisted and misused for ages - is about manifesting our higher selves.

So why do we so easily make snap judgments about Islam and Muslims? Again, for answers to this question, I would refer you to those two books I mentioned.

Islam is the best religion. Muslims are the best people.

Nobody is making snap judgements here. Mine is actually a moderate position. Listen to the conservative talk shows and you will here outright attacks on the religion. I did no such thing. But the question remains, why is so much of Muslim sociey stuck in the past with barbaric attitudes toward women and so resistant to democratic reform? You going to blame the Christians for that?

True all that. Religion has always been the opiate of the masses. Christianity has had it's Crusades and Inquisition and the Muslims had their Otoman Empire in Europe and Asia.
Probably the only religion that isn't about power and control is Budhism.
The thing about today's fundemental Muslims is their strict interpretation of the Koran that preaches that all those that do not believe in Allah do not have a right to live - therefore the Jihad (Holy War) against the Infidels (non-believers).
The problem is that even among themselves they can not agree on the right of successor to the the Prophet Muhammad and therefore wage war on each other ( Shia and Sunni ).
Throughout history Shia Muslims, a minority, have not recognized the authority of elected Muslim leaders, choosing instead to follow a line of Imams which they believe to have been appointed by the Prophet Muhhamad or God himself.
Following the Prophet Muhhamad's death, Shia Muslims believe that the leadership should have been directly passed on to his cousin/son-in-law Ali Bin Abu Talib, instead, Abu Bakr, Prophet Muhammad's close friend and advisor was chosen by the Sunnis and he became the first Caliph of the Islamic Nation. Ever since, the two factions have been at war.

First off, I'd just like to appologise to other people who have posted in this thread as I can't reply to everyone.

Secondly, I'd just like to clear something, I'm actually a Muslim and I have realised this thread may result in a lot of trolls finding a home for their thoughts.

And I agree with what you have said celluloidchild, a lot of the opinions on this page do read like the news. The typical story of "yes, Western Muslims by and large are alright as long as they forsake their heritage, but those brown skins in the middle east and southeast asia are all crazy, warmongers who deserve the harsh treatment they have received at the hands of our armies and weapons". That's about the most typical western response to Muslims.

I was seriously hoping for some better informed observations and opinions on Muslims and Islam yet I can't see any. May be it is our fault as a people for never truly managing to represent our faith for what it is.

Like Fidel Castro once said, "no peoples in the 20th century have suffered as badly as the Jews". I'd change that a little, no people in the early 20th century have suffered as badly as the Jews but no people on Earth have suffered as badly as the Muslims in the latter half of that century and now in the 21st century.

Just to pick up on a point someone made earlier, with regards to Palestinians and how they are a terrorist nation. That has got to be the most misinformed post I've ever read. I hope you are not offended by me saying that. Let's just look at the overview of what's happened in that land for the last 60 odd years.

Personally, I believe it was necessary for Jews to have their own homeland, especially after the European atrocities of the second world war. The land which they picked to be their homeland was also understandable but the methods which they employed to obtain that homeland was wrong.

Over the course of the last half a century, 7.2 million Palestinians have been killed in that conflict, millions more have been displaced, countless raped and left as orphans. Schools, hospitals, roads, houses, parks, banks, government buildings have all been destroyed.

What makes us human has been taken away from them, they have been attacked endlessly from all sides, their basic human rights are non existent, a huge wall has been constructed to keep them away from the Israelis, as if the Palestinians were rats of cockroaches. So, if you were enslaved in such a system, worse than any racial segregation in 20th century America and South Africa, how would you react? Imagine if you have watched your parents murdered and your home taken away from you. What would you do?

Even through all that hard ship and pain, the vast majority of people just want peace, only a tiny minority, numbering a few hundred, maybe a couple thousand are actually militants. Even the militancy is understandable but not always condonable. Having said that, the horror and terror reeked by the Israeli state has been supported by countless western nations. So, ask yourselves this, in this case, who are the real terrorists, the real savages?

I stand by what I said about Muslim terrorists and those in power in certain countries. I have major issues with them.

However after re reading my post I did fail on one point. I did fail to emphasize the minority of the extremists. I failed to emphasize that the extremists are a vocal minority. I said it seemed like the extremists out numbered the sane Muslims in their homelands. What I intended was the extremists get so much coverage it seems like they are the majority. And those who are peace loving in Muslim nations are left in a bad spot. If they speak out they are a target and are at risk to violence. I thought the line about stepping out of line stated that. Obviously I failed there. I guess I took this for common knowledge.

That being said, I still have major issues with the governments of Iran, Saudia Arabia and other Muslim nations where the government is based off Islamic law. Because that worked so well in the past. *sarcasm* and I will also agree that many attitudes of certain Muslims are still in the dark ages.

As for people and the religion? I have no issues.

If the majority of Palistinians only want peace, why did they elect Hamas?

I'll offer another answer: because there's a difference between Christians doing things and people doing things because they are Christian. Much of what you're listing was not done for explicitly Christian reasons. Phrases like "largely led by Christian leaders," for example, make the distinction plain.

Not to mention that people react in fundamentally different ways to outright terrorism than they do to ill-advised wars, and for good reason.

That's perhaps the wildest exaggeration I've ever seen.

In 1948 there were 1.9 million people living in Palestine, and 32 percent of those were Jews. That means there were around 1.3 million Palestinian Arabs. Even if there were around Palestinian Arabs living outside Palestine at the time, that means 1.4 million Palestinian Arabs in the whole world.

In what Palestinians call al-Naqba and Israelis call the War of Independence there is a highest estimate of 13,000 Palestinian Arabs killed. There were fewer than that number killed between 1948 and through the 1967 war. There have been around 8,000 Palestinians killed since 1987 in the West Bank and Gaza.

In addition, there were an unknown number of Palestinians killed by the Jordanian government in the Black September massacres in the early 1970s: anywhere from a few thousand to 20,000. There were also several thousand killed during the Lebanese Civil War and the Israeli invasion of Lebanon, but at the most 3,000 killed directly by Israeli forces.

As far as possible, I've used Palestinian/Arab sources. Any way you cut it, you're looking at a maximum of 30,000 Palestinians killed directly by Israelis - and that number again, at least, if you include the number of Palestinians killed by other Arabs.