This is such a loaded question. Obviously men and women are equal but at the same time they are different and will make different choices, so the results will never be equal as long as there's free choice. Who knows?
Why was the tag 'Oscars too white' not considered racist
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Chiming in since I frequent gay circles on the internet (drag race reddits mainly)... Kevin Hart's dismissal is largely seen as the correct choice. This was a grown man making a conscious decision on a public platform to say he would hit his kid over the head if they were gay. Like where are the jokes? (Sarcasm) I accept attitudes to the LGBT society have rapidly changed but he makes it difficult for himself. This wasn't a slip of the tongue by an ignorant teenager. It was a conscious effort to put that out there in the world during a time when the LGBT community did not have access to the rights they now do and were marginalised (particularly the trans community)
Besides, Gaga is bringing in all the gays this year. They can't lose that demographic
Besides, Gaga is bringing in all the gays this year. They can't lose that demographic
I agree with Iro as well. I don't think this is a conscious thing. I applaud this movement for opening up a very real dialogue about representation in Hollywood and the film industry. White people have never had any obstacles facing them in terms of representation. Minorities have. Only fairly recently could they challenge narratives around colonialism and racial prejudice and present individual histories that were long suppressed. The Oscars aren't political by nature but many people have used the platform to publicise political causes. They have the power to give art great exposure in a way very few other platforms can and if they won't acknowledge certain pieces because it was on Netflix or it missed a deadline then perhaps they should reflect.
Also, bare in mind some of the winners. Hattie McDaniel won when she couldn't attend the premiere of GWTW because of racial segregation but she was playing a servant that was more or less the mammy stereotype. An appraisal of black excellence or an attempt to further entrench racial stereotypes?
I dunno. I don't believe in positive discrimination because it is still discrimination. But the academy has always been stuck in its ways and been resistant to change. Good on them for making their issues heard.
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It seems even more presumptuous to act like black people should learn to be happy with winning 10% of the Oscars simply because they make up 10% of the population.
The charge is that the Academy system is not, in aggregate, giving African-Americans proper consideration for awards, right? The fact that the number of winners aligns with the general population seems pretty hard to reconcile with that charge, and I'm genuinely stumped as to how the quote above is meant to do so. NB: this fact does not preclude the existence of racism or its presence in any specific example. It's simply a direct challenge to the claim of systemic bias.
I quoted this same statistic to you when the controversy was fresh, by the way, and by my recollection you didn't address it at all. And I don't see how you have here, either.
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...We all agree that the modern movement of snowflake millennials is a pain in the ass...
Here's what the real enemy who stirs up race hatred in the world today looks like...
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"Racism exists" is not a defense for a specific charge of racism any more than "murder exists" means a particular person killed someone.
Thinking racism exists, and thinking it's a bigger problem than the people you're arguing with, perhaps, also should not obligate you to defend its presence in any given example. These are specific charges, not just generic, fungible excuses to express your general orientation to the culture. But it sure feels like that's what happens, over and over.
Thinking racism exists, and thinking it's a bigger problem than the people you're arguing with, perhaps, also should not obligate you to defend its presence in any given example. These are specific charges, not just generic, fungible excuses to express your general orientation to the culture. But it sure feels like that's what happens, over and over.
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Because racism isn't as simple as all instances of one race arbitrarily hating another being considered equal regardless of context. In the case of the tag, it was acknowledging the Academy's institutional bias towards honouring white people over non-white people (hitting an extreme in a year where all the acting nominees ended up being white).
As for why it's different to a hypothetical tag targeting black people, it's because for a variety of reasons white people have had it easier than black people so whites can much more easily afford to be taken down a peg.
This sounds a lot like "I'm not racist because I have a black friend" logic, though. It's not so much a matter of all 6000 or so Academy members all hating black people as it is that they "just happen" to prefer picking white people roughly 90% of the time. That's what's meant by it being an institutional thing - nobody is necessarily thinking "I hate black people", but the numbers are still skewed enough that one has to at least try asking what's causing this rather than settling for easy answers.
Poe's Law, dude. When you consider how much white people managed to weave racism into the fabric of modern civilisation, It's practically impossible for people of colour to match up to that particular level of racism.
Which only begs the question of how the percentage of white nominees/winners compares against the percentage of white Americans (and that's without factoring in the existence of non-black people of colour like Asians or Latinxs)? I realise there are certain complicating factors to consider like nominees from different countries and whatnot, but what if there's a more significant discrepancy between the white population and white Oscar nods?
It seems even more presumptuous to act like black people should learn to be happy with winning 10% of the Oscars simply because they make up 10% of the population.
Did he actually apologise, though? Seems like he's just done a lot of half-assing and acting defensively both in the past and recently whereas doing a single sincere apology that acknowledges the issue and the need to do better would be better than repeating himself unnecessarily and pulling the kind of you-can't-fire-me-I-quit thing that doesn't suggest as much maturity as you'd think.
irrational people saying and I quote WHITES CAN MORE EASILY AFFORD TO BE TAKEN DOWN A PEG. probably the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. This whole silly white guilt argument needs to stop. like you said about Denzel Washington winning an award and Foster Whitaker etc, people insisting the scales need to be tilted to achieve equality is a very pernicious and deeply unsettling argument.
As equality is not achieved by bringing One race down to bring another up. As nobody needs to be taken down a notch because that's racist behaviour within itself. It's strange all this racial tension has only become an issue in Hollywood and in the oscars as of recently. I swear in the early 2000s we never had these problems to the extent they are today, but it's people who insist that whites need to be taken down a peg that are adding to these issues.
We are all just human beings at the end of the day, but whether you're from Britain or Africa or wherever you're from. everyone has the right to be proud of their heritage. I'm a white guy from Britain and I'm proud of mine
But seriously cricket there's no use trying to have a civilised debate with someone irrational. Save your wise words for a more rational discussions that actually gets somewhere
Last edited by TheLostAndFound; 01-12-19 at 11:41 PM.
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If i can go back to the Kevin Hart issue of no longer hosting the Oscars. Why arent the same people that said the oscars were too white, now defending kevin Hart? Rather hypocryticial isnt it, that these people say the Oscars are too white and when it comes time for an african american man to host the oscars, the pc police (these people included?) rip into Kevin Hart for things he said 10 years ago.
First of all, with stand up comedy, the whole point of it, is nothing is off topic. Every group and every topic, is up for roasting. I have even seen stand up comics make jokes about 9/11, Dave Chappelle has joked about OJ Simpson's dead wife. But some how, making fun, jokes, about gay people is beyond the pale? I dont get it, is there some rule book hat says gay people cannot be made fun of by stand up comics. Also, why is it then, that gay stand up comedians themselves can joke about gay people as they themselves share theier sexual pursasion. Maybe from now on only white comics can joke about white issues, black comics about black issues and so on. Maybe then the pc police will be happy, and all will be right with the world in pc land.
Even if Kevin Hart this year, didnt come out and formerly apologize, why should he? This was things he said 10 years ago. And like he said on the Ellen show, he dealt with the issue 10 years ago, many times, including doing the media rounds for promoting Get Hard. So hes supposed to apologize on top of the apology? Why should he. I think the Academy made a big mistake not letting him host this years Oscars. Is Dustin Hoffman supposed to apologize for things that he may bot even done 20 years ago, just to appease people, which is basically what happened in an interview.
By the way, to the pc police who caused Kevin Hart to no longer host the Oscars, Ellen Degenerous said that Kevein Hart should host the Oscars on her show, when she interviewed Kevin Hart about he issue. Id love to know they reconcile that, when Ellen Degenerous, perhaps the most prominent LGBTQ person on tv, said at Kevin Hart should host. If anyone was going to be offended by it that had an opportunity to have her views expressed in public and have millions of people see it, wouldnt it be her.
Anyways, all this political correctness of the Oscars over the last decade really bugs me. How about just letting the best person win on the night, whoever that may be - whatever theier race,, sexual pursasion,. And how about letting great stand up comic, turned actor (or maybe one in the same) host the Oscars, since what he said was 10 years ago, and he apologized for it at the time, and as he stated, he is a more mature person, diffrent from the one that said those things.
First of all, with stand up comedy, the whole point of it, is nothing is off topic. Every group and every topic, is up for roasting. I have even seen stand up comics make jokes about 9/11, Dave Chappelle has joked about OJ Simpson's dead wife. But some how, making fun, jokes, about gay people is beyond the pale? I dont get it, is there some rule book hat says gay people cannot be made fun of by stand up comics. Also, why is it then, that gay stand up comedians themselves can joke about gay people as they themselves share theier sexual pursasion. Maybe from now on only white comics can joke about white issues, black comics about black issues and so on. Maybe then the pc police will be happy, and all will be right with the world in pc land.
Even if Kevin Hart this year, didnt come out and formerly apologize, why should he? This was things he said 10 years ago. And like he said on the Ellen show, he dealt with the issue 10 years ago, many times, including doing the media rounds for promoting Get Hard. So hes supposed to apologize on top of the apology? Why should he. I think the Academy made a big mistake not letting him host this years Oscars. Is Dustin Hoffman supposed to apologize for things that he may bot even done 20 years ago, just to appease people, which is basically what happened in an interview.
By the way, to the pc police who caused Kevin Hart to no longer host the Oscars, Ellen Degenerous said that Kevein Hart should host the Oscars on her show, when she interviewed Kevin Hart about he issue. Id love to know they reconcile that, when Ellen Degenerous, perhaps the most prominent LGBTQ person on tv, said at Kevin Hart should host. If anyone was going to be offended by it that had an opportunity to have her views expressed in public and have millions of people see it, wouldnt it be her.
Anyways, all this political correctness of the Oscars over the last decade really bugs me. How about just letting the best person win on the night, whoever that may be - whatever theier race,, sexual pursasion,. And how about letting great stand up comic, turned actor (or maybe one in the same) host the Oscars, since what he said was 10 years ago, and he apologized for it at the time, and as he stated, he is a more mature person, diffrent from the one that said those things.
They realized the Oscars were becoming irrelevant and they thought that making it more diverse would bring in new people. By "hating on" the Academy for its so-called "old fashioned values" they could bring in new publicity and drum up interest from Millennials. The race/gender thing is talked about today because racism was still prevalent in what, the 1950s?
I think it's time we all let go of that like some others here were saying. People are people.
As an aside, if you go to awards in Japan or South Korea, good luck EVER seeing a white person (or any other "foreign" race) get nominated.
I think it's time we all let go of that like some others here were saying. People are people.
As an aside, if you go to awards in Japan or South Korea, good luck EVER seeing a white person (or any other "foreign" race) get nominated.
Yes, but I don't equate abusers or victims of the past with people of today. One could if they like, but I believe people need to put the past behind them in order to move ahead.
Sure, but there's still no evidence.
Again, I guess it just depends how far back in the past you want to go and it's a very complicated issue. I do stand by my thought that today racism come equally from blacks and whites, and it's all bad.
I don't think numbers can show bias, and again, I don't think making comparisons to population numbers tells the whole story.
I'm just a strong believer in free speech, and when talking about a comedian it's even more irrelevant as far as I'm concerned. If he wants to apologize, he should. Nobody should apologize out of pressure to do so.
I think you and many of us want the same thing Iro but we just have different perspectives on roots and how to get there.
And I'm not even familiar with the comment, and I don't fault the decision totally even though I don't agree with going back in a person's history and penalizing them for words. That's a dangerous game.
It's not all bad. It's just that it'll be a great day when people don't see skin color, and this kind of thing makes that day further away.
Agreed it was terrible, but that was a long time ago. There's more progress made from being strong than by being a victim.
Now we just have to wonder if Moonlight's Oscar was given or earned.
This seems like another motte-and-bailey. The charge is racism, yet you've tried to redefine it to whether they should "learn to be happy," a completely different question which is pretty blatantly rephrased and changed to smuggle in lots of other connotations that aren't actually in the thing you're replying to. "African-Americans should try to win even more Oscars" is not a controversial statement. "It's evidence of racism if they don't win more" is another claim entirely. I think you know that.
The charge is that the Academy system is not, in aggregate, giving African-Americans proper consideration for awards, right? The fact that the number of winners aligns with the general population seems pretty hard to reconcile with that charge, and I'm genuinely stumped as to how the quote above is meant to do so. NB: this fact does not preclude the existence of racism or its presence in any specific example. It's simply a direct challenge to the claim of systemic bias.
I quoted this same statistic to you when the controversy was fresh, by the way, and by my recollection you didn't address it at all. And I don't see how you have here, either.
The charge is that the Academy system is not, in aggregate, giving African-Americans proper consideration for awards, right? The fact that the number of winners aligns with the general population seems pretty hard to reconcile with that charge, and I'm genuinely stumped as to how the quote above is meant to do so. NB: this fact does not preclude the existence of racism or its presence in any specific example. It's simply a direct challenge to the claim of systemic bias.
I quoted this same statistic to you when the controversy was fresh, by the way, and by my recollection you didn't address it at all. And I don't see how you have here, either.
The same goes for the fact that the original statement claims that the Oscars are "so white" in a way that acknowledges the imbalance in a not-too-accusatory manner, which is why I have a problem with users like @marty344 misinterpreting it as "too white" as if to preemptively justify going on the defensive against what they perceive as a more direct attack on their personhood.
I agree i mean Kevin Hart shouldn't have been picked on for something he said 10 years ago. But there's no use debating people who look at this so irrationally.
irrational people saying and I quote WHITES CAN MORE EASILY AFFORD TO BE TAKEN DOWN A PEG. probably the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. This whole silly white guilt argument needs to stop. like you said about Denzel Washington winning an award and Foster Whitaker etc, people insisting the scales need to be tilted to achieve equality is a very pernicious and deeply unsettling argument.
But seriously, that's being taken out of context. It doesn't hurt to be aware of the various social, political, and historical reasons why white people have generally managed to be more successful in Western society throughout the years and that it should be addressed rather than shrugged off as "irrational" simply because it makes you uncomfortable.
As equality is not achieved by bringing One race down to bring another up. As nobody needs to be taken down a notch because that's racist behaviour within itself. It's strange all this racial tension has only become an issue in Hollywood and in the oscars as of recently. I swear in the early 2000s we never had these problems to the extent they are today, but it's people who insist that whites need to be taken down a peg that are adding to these issues.
We are all just human beings at the end of the day, but whether you're from Britain or Africa or wherever you're from. everyone has the right to be proud of their heritage. I'm a white guy from Britain and I'm proud of mine
But seriously cricket there's no use trying to have a civilised debate with someone irrational. Save your wise words for a more rational discussions that actually gets somewhere
If i can go back to the Kevin Hart issue of no longer hosting the Oscars. Why arent the same people that said the oscars were too white, now defending kevin Hart? Rather hypocryticial isnt it, that these people say the Oscars are too white and when it comes time for an african american man to host the oscars, the pc police (these people included?) rip into Kevin Hart for things he said 10 years ago.
Even if Kevin Hart this year, didnt come out and formerly apologize, why should he? This was things he said 10 years ago. And like he said on the Ellen show, he dealt with the issue 10 years ago, many times, including doing the media rounds for promoting Get Hard. So hes supposed to apologize on top of the apology? Why should he. I think the Academy made a big mistake not letting him host this years Oscars. Is Dustin Hoffman supposed to apologize for things that he may bot even done 20 years ago, just to appease people, which is basically what happened in an interview.
By the way, to the pc police who caused Kevin Hart to no longer host the Oscars, Ellen Degenerous said that Kevein Hart should host the Oscars on her show, when she interviewed Kevin Hart about he issue. Id love to know they reconcile that, when Ellen Degenerous, perhaps the most prominent LGBTQ person on tv, said at Kevin Hart should host. If anyone was going to be offended by it that had an opportunity to have her views expressed in public and have millions of people see it, wouldnt it be her.
Anyways, all this political correctness of the Oscars over the last decade really bugs me. How about just letting the best person win on the night, whoever that may be - whatever theier race,, sexual pursasion,. And how about letting great stand up comic, turned actor (or maybe one in the same) host the Oscars, since what he said was 10 years ago, and he apologized for it at the time, and as he stated, he is a more mature person, diffrent from the one that said those things.
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I really just want you all angry and confused the whole time.
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We are all just human beings at the end of the day, but whether you're from Britain or Africa or wherever you're from. everyone has the right to be proud of their heritage. I'm a white guy from Britain and I'm proud of mine
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I'm just not sure why the "10% of the population is black and 10% of the winners are black" has to be the be-all and end-all
if only because (as noted) it doesn't paint a complete picture and thus I can't completely rule my point out for the same reason I can't completely prove it.
Second, it doesn't have to paint a "complete picture," unless someone's citing it to dismiss the idea of racism ever existing. Not every charge of racism is a proxy for everyone's general posture about its scope or spread. It is possible for racism to be real, and bad...and not present in a specific situation just because somebody said it might be.
Maybe it is just too big to try to grapple with and it is just easier to concede this particular point, if only because it seems to be getting off-topic a little
but how else am I to answer people like the OP who are all "but it would be racist if it was about black people instead" without resorting to some blunt one-liner like "GEE I DON'T KNOW IT'S AS IF THEY ARE TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT WORDS WITH COMPLETELY DIFFERENT MEANINGS" (which I know you hate, of course).
And I remind you you tried to do that with me, too, back when this was new, even though I sounded nothing like the OP. So it sure seems like the conclusion is coming first, and then simply refuses to move when it's presented with contrary evidence (nevermind, for now, that the conclusion was formed without the evidence to begin with).
The same goes for the fact that the original statement claims that the Oscars are "so white" in a way that acknowledges the imbalance in a not-too-accusatory manner, which is why I have a problem with users like @marty344 misinterpreting it as "too white" as if to preemptively justify going on the defensive against what they perceive as a more direct attack on their personhood.
What exactly is so hard about apologising that it's apparently such a problem for him that he can't do it again (and that's assuming he did it properly before)?
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It cant be both. Either the Oscars are rewarded to the best actors, actresses and directors each year regardless of skin color. Or the Oscars are racist and try and go out of their way to make sure people that are not white are kept out of winning oscars.
Personally, i think its my first comment rather than the later. The academy member's jobs are quite easy. Choose the person in each catgory that they consider the best. Thats it, nothing more nothing less.
Having said that, for all i know theier could well be some flaimung racists that are stuck in 1900. But the facts speak for themselves. May african american actors and actresses as well as directrs have one this most coveted prize in all of cinema.
Some have even won it twice - Denzel Washington.
If the Oscars were so racist then these people would never have won, let alone been nonimated, if they were trying to keep non whites from winning.
I dont see how the Academy Awards is supposed to be more diverse. Its up to the filmmakers and all those involved in the film , to make a movie great enough to either be nominated for best picture, or be good eneough that its actors and actresses get nominated.
if anything why dont the pc police call out films as being too white? if that is indeed ther gripe.
Maybe im just blind to race. I dont see Michael Jordan as the greatest african american basketballer of all time. I just see him as the greatest basketballer of all time.
I was as happy when Leonardo Decaprio one best actor, as i was when Denzel Washington won it.
Anyways, seeing as i started this thing, maybe this is a good place to end it, unless anyone wants to say anything else.
Personally, i think its my first comment rather than the later. The academy member's jobs are quite easy. Choose the person in each catgory that they consider the best. Thats it, nothing more nothing less.
Having said that, for all i know theier could well be some flaimung racists that are stuck in 1900. But the facts speak for themselves. May african american actors and actresses as well as directrs have one this most coveted prize in all of cinema.
Some have even won it twice - Denzel Washington.
If the Oscars were so racist then these people would never have won, let alone been nonimated, if they were trying to keep non whites from winning.
I dont see how the Academy Awards is supposed to be more diverse. Its up to the filmmakers and all those involved in the film , to make a movie great enough to either be nominated for best picture, or be good eneough that its actors and actresses get nominated.
if anything why dont the pc police call out films as being too white? if that is indeed ther gripe.
Maybe im just blind to race. I dont see Michael Jordan as the greatest african american basketballer of all time. I just see him as the greatest basketballer of all time.
I was as happy when Leonardo Decaprio one best actor, as i was when Denzel Washington won it.
Anyways, seeing as i started this thing, maybe this is a good place to end it, unless anyone wants to say anything else.
Oscars aside, the women you are quoting have already made it big in the music industry through their own sheer hard work. With due respect you do have to look at the music industry as a whole and tell me that using the population statistics you are quoting for race, you can't go on and tell me that 50% of the successful music acts/producers/songwriters are women? There must be a reason for that? Maybe cos it's hard for women to break into the music industry?
This is an interesting proposition. Let us look at the successful acts and see what the gender breakdown is. Let's look at the decade of the 2000's (because it is the most modern complete decade and because it is the only complete decade of this century) and see. Here is a link to the list of the Billboard's Hot 100 Number-one singles of the 2000's:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...s_of_the_2000s
From the list:
Artist Weeks at number-one Usher 41 Beyoncé 36 The Black Eyed Peas 26 Nelly 23 50 Cent 23 Alicia Keys 22 Jay-Z 20 Mariah Carey 19 Rihanna 19
The artists with the most weeks at number one was Usher (male), Beyonce (female), The Black Eyed Peas (bit of both), Nelly (male), 50 Cent (male), Alicia Keys (female), Jay-Z (male), Mariah Carey (female) and Rihanna (female). The total is 4 males, 4 females and one group which contains both men and women. It looks as if it is exactly a 50-50 split.
Here, from the same list is the artists with the most number one singles of the decade:
Artist Number-one hits Singles
Usher 7
Rihanna 5
Beyoncé 5
Mariah Carey 4
Alicia Keys 4
50 Cent 4
Justin Timberlake 4
Nelly 4
Ludacris 4
Jennifer Lopez 3
Nelly Furtado 3
Fergie 3
You have Usher (male), Rihanna (female), Beyonce (female), Mariah Carey (female), Alicia Keys (female), 50 Cent (male), Justin Timberlake (male), Nelly (male), Ludacris (male), Jennifer Lopez (female), Nelly Furtado (female) and Fergie (female). That is 5 males and 7 females.
Judging by those numbers, yes, 50% (if not slightly more) of the successful music acts are women. Why is that so hard to believe?
Last edited by Theophile; 01-14-19 at 04:09 AM.
Good point Theophile, but I was more thinking of the music industry as a whole. Unless women are involved in all levels including technical and behind the scenes it will still remain a male dominated industry, despite the star performers at the top of their game.
Couple of interesting articles
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=i&so...47541998097634
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=i&so...47541998097634
Couple of interesting articles
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=i&so...47541998097634
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=i&so...47541998097634
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We are all just human beings at the end of the day, but whether you're from Britain or Africa or wherever you're from. everyone has the right to be proud of their heritage. I'm a white guy from Britain and I'm proud of mine
Take nazi Germany for example they suffered alot of poverty after world war 1 and had a lot of resentment for those they fought against in that war. If you lived in that state of poverty and suffering for years on end you probably would of been just as easily led on be Hitler's cause and committed crimes against your fellow man, and believing you were serving justice all the while. If you think you would have done things differently. Its most likely you would of been no different. Because when people are thrown in to extreme situations and are made to be puppeted by a government, its very hard to take a step back and to see things with moral clarity. Meny would not have the privilege or the position where they could step back and truly examine what is going on. And most who committed these terrible acs in war were merely porns of the government or a dictatorship which was the case in nazi Germany. The top nazi's though there's no excuse for them. But I'm referring to the foot soldiers in that war. We live in times where its easy to be moral, well not easy because are times come with different problems but easy in comparison to the men who had the misfortune of living under a dictatorship
Last edited by TheLostAndFound; 01-14-19 at 09:46 AM.
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wasn’t thinking about slavery in particular tbh, although obviously that’s a factor, but just reflecting on the fact that often you get extremists saying things like “I’m proud to be British and proud of our heritage’ and hearing bandied about names like Agincourt, the Tudors, Waterloo, the Empire, the Industrial Revolution without giving thought to the lives of ordinary people in those times. I’m not saying feel guilty or be responsible for the past, I’m just saying be mindful that the majority of the population was living in abject poverty, uneducated, and disenfranchised, with children working down mines and up chimneys and in dangerous factories .
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The more measures the successive governments try to implement to counterbalance the racial subject the more they distinguish both. This is applicable to everything, from jobs applications which require the company/state to have % minorities, to everything else. The equality between races comes by not distinguish them, but unfortunately people use the race card very often.
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Good point Theophile, but I was more thinking of the music industry as a whole. Unless women are involved in all levels including technical and behind the scenes it will still remain a male dominated industry, despite the star performers at the top of their game.
As in the STEM fields, the only way to achieve a 50/50 balance in the field, would be to make people who don't want to do a certain job, do that job. The interest just doesn't seem to be there.
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