MoFo's Religion

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MoFo's Religion
13.39%
17 votes
Catholic
8.66%
11 votes
Protestant
3.94%
5 votes
Jewish
2.36%
3 votes
Islamic
0.79%
1 votes
Hindu
3.15%
4 votes
Buddhist
3.15%
4 votes
Wiccan
0.79%
1 votes
Unitarian Universalist
22.83%
29 votes
Other
40.94%
52 votes
None
127 votes. You may not vote on this poll




We don't need it in a physical, survival sense, like food or water., but we need it in an intellectual sense. We expect it. Almost all of mankind has expected to find purpose, and most of it has, in some form. And I can't help but notice that all the other things that all of mankind has always wanted--food, water, sex, air--do, in fact, exist. That's not to say we always get what we want, but we're stunningly efficient at wanting things we can potentially get. If purpose is something we almost all have almost always wanted, and can't get at...it's probably the only thing that fits that description.
Need is different than expect. My point was that even if there is a god(s), purpose still comes from us since it is up to us to do something with our lives, and even then the purpose of what we've done is somewhat ambivalent. Purpose I don't think means striving for things just out of reach, unless the purpose of humanity as a whole is to prosper, but if so then you'd have to define prosper because I don't see that happening much outside art. But even art has to be narrowed down oh w/e

It's not a mistake unless you define "meaning" in a completely circular way. If you define the "meaning" of life to be whatever meaning you decide your life has, then yeah, shocker: your life can have "meaning." But that's a tautology. For the word to have any--sorry, it's the only word--meaning, it has to refer to purpose outside of our own arbitrary choice. When you say you give your life meaning, you're already conceding the point. You may or may not then try to reappropriate the word to mean less than it did when the other person spoke it, but it won't be referring to the same thing.
Technically the definition of the word "meaning" was assigned so it's application is arbitrary but ok reverting back to the point that life has no meaning without god: using your own definition of purpose, life is a series of stretches towards a new level for the species wherein we aim for things out of reach but things that are merely wants. That sounds complicated.

No, he's saying they do, and that that makes us different than animals.

Except for the search to improve their quality of life, you mean? Anyway, whether he brings them up or not, there are some pretty huge differences. And whether or not you find those differences to be indicative of some higher metaphysical truth, the attempts to play down the gulf are often hilariously inadequate.
Either I read it wrong or he worded it ambiguously. I don't find the differences indicative of anything other than we have more mental capacity but apparently not enough to grant certain other species their mental capacity. Not that I know the sources to which you refer, but the gulf is rather small from the big picture.


No, but you do need one to have any objective ground for morality, truth, logic, purpose, etc. You may not feel these things exist at all, but in my experience most skeptics try to have it both ways.
I'm not disagreeing with this though.

There are many reasons to pray (and the existence of miracles does not, in fact, conflict with free will), but in short: prayer benefits the person praying. I pray because it is humbling, grounding, and is a useful symbol of faith and acceptance. Not because I think I can persuade God to give me something.
I think this ties in here:
a materialistic universe is one in which only physical things exist. All physical things react to the forces set upon them and have no say in doing so, IE: a rock has to fall when you drop it. Our brains are made of physical matter. Therefore, our brains are subject to the same laws of cause and effect, and choice is an illusion.
And this:
I say "virtually" because you can, technically speaking, construct a belief system that denies the existence of God but affirms the existence of some vague supernatural force of only moderate power, I suppose. But I haven't met anyone who thinks this.
I think this bit is actually more plausible than literally any other belief system ever. It establishes more of an equilibrium with the galactic possibility. Anyway, going off this, it can't be a materialistic universe, nor do I think you think so either, so miracles or free will, whatever card you want, is irrelevant to what would be a systematic chaos, and therein lies my understanding that religion is inherently inept. I'm not sure how praying makes you at one with yourself in any reality; I used to do it in grade school so I'm not coming from nowhere there.



You don't want to debate because you (like most atheists) see science as the end all be all. I don't.
What is an atheist doing qutoing scripture? You don't even understand what that bible verse meant at all.
I can't quote the old testement? I bet I've read more of the bible than you have. Oh an please tell me how I should understand killing without mercy. It has no inner meaning it means what it says. Who are you to put words in Gods mouth and say no he didn't mean what he said, he meant something completely opposite of that.
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will.15's Avatar
Semper Fooey
That is gobbly gook.

Free will means you decide or influence your fate, but we are not completely divorced from our environment or physical laws. There is no such things as absolutely completely free will if you believe in God or not. Ayn Rand certainly believed in free will (arguably to an absurd degree) and she was an atheist
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That is gobbly gook.
How? I used clear English and went from one proposition to the next. Tell me which of the sentences is wrong.

Free will means you decide or influence your fate, but we are not completely divorced from our environment or physical laws. There is no such things as absolutely completely free will if you believe in God or not. Ayn Rand certainly believed in free will (arguably to an absurd degree) and she was an atheist
I'm not talking about "completely free will." And I'm not saying we lack free will because things around us can influence and inform our choices. I'm saying there must be no choice whatsoever, that physical laws must completely determine our actions. Our brains are made of the same kinds of molecules you'll find all over the universe, and none of those other molecules have any choice in how they react to things, right? So why our are brains any different?

You may not like the implications of this, but show me the flaw in it.



I say "virtually" because you can, technically speaking, construct a belief system that denies the existence of God but affirms the existence of some vague supernatural force of only moderate power, I suppose. But I haven't met anyone who thinks this.
Why not? I believe this is possible, actually -- that maybe there's not a "God" but there is something that is supernatural -- or at least it appears to be "supernatural" to us -- and it is certainly "alive" and at work in our lives, doing checks and balances on all of our lives and the world and the universe at large. It might even be where the idea of religion came from. Maybe we created our own belief systems from this larger system that is hard for us to understand.

This is actually the closest I can come to seeing and understanding supernatural things right now. 'Cause I actually do have a suspicion that there's something more to just... materialism. I don't know if it might mean that there is free will, though. There might not be. But still I wonder, what if? I'm not sure if I'm explaining this right, but basically I think the idea that some kind of extra dimension that is "in charge" of this one may very well exist and that it might even be working along with us sometimes, guiding us, directing us, moving us. I'm just not sure if it's ... loving. Others I've talked to about this have said they thought something larger is out there, too, and not necessarily a God we all think about, but something that wants us "to learn how to love." I don't think so gullibly. I think it's possible that we have a governing system above us that isn't so loving. That brings bad luck and misfortune on us when we don't do -- or aren't equipped -- to do what it wants us to do. Such as if we're a mistake in creation or something. I mean, maybe there's something larger at work and we're all just cogs in some grand design that's leading to something else, whatever that may be. Make any sense?



will.15's Avatar
Semper Fooey
I don't know what you are saying.

If we make decisions, we have free will. If I decide I want to walk into traffic in the middle of the street, I am making a decision that may affect my life. I could get killed even if I walk across the street with a green light, but my fate isn't predetermined at the time I am born.

If I throw a rock, the rock will come down. That has nothing to do with free will. That is the law of gravity.



I don't understand the Christian concept of free will.
You don't have to believe in God but if you don't you bun in hell for an eternity.
That's like saying you have freedom of speech but if you say something the government doesn't like, life in prison.



Smells mystical, doesn't it?
Arguing in a religion thread, whoda thunk it?!



I don't know what you are saying.
Hmmm. I'm putting it in extremely simple terms. I'll try again, though.

If we make decisions, we have free will. If I decide I want to walk into traffic in the middle of the street, I am making a decision that may affect my life. I could get killed even if I walk across the street with a green light, but my fate isn't predetermined at the time I am born
I'm saying that, if the physical is all there is, then you don't actually make decisions. Your choice was predetermined and the idea that you could have chosen the other way is an illusion.

If I throw a rock, the rock will come down. That has nothing to do with free will. That is the law of gravity.
Bingo. The rock has no say in it, right? It has to fall. So why is your brain different? Why is it that the physical forces that make the rock fall, or govern how any molecule reacts to any other molecule, do not apply to your brain? They're both physical matter.

Is your brain protected from the laws of cause and effect that govern all other matter in the universe? Do you think your brain is made up of special molecules that behave differently from all others and are exempt from these laws?



I don't understand the Christian concept of free will.
You don't have to believe in God but if you don't you bun in hell for an eternity.
That's like saying you have freedom of speech but if you say something the government doesn't like, life in prison.
The Cliff's Notes version is that you don't get sent to Hell and you don't literally burn; Hell is the name we give separation from God. A lot of people--Christian philosophers, writers, thinkers, and just random people on message boards--have answered this. So many, and so frequently, that it'd be virtually impossible for someone not to encounter the answers if they'd made any attempt to actually find them, or genuinely explore the issue.

So I guess my question is: are you actually trying to have a discussion, or are you just throwing out random arguments? Because I like talking about this, and I really like talking about it with people who make a good faith effort to understand the arguments and show genuine curiosity about why others think what they do. But I'm not particularly interested in arguing with someone who doesn't seem interested in the answers, or just wants to make the resident Christians jump through some very old hoops.



planet news's Avatar
Registered User
That is gobbly gook.
It's not 'gob-bly gook.' It's one word: gob-ble-dee-gook. Gobbledygook.
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Bright light. Bright light. Uh oh.
If you die and you don't believe in God/Christ, then you're dead just as atheists believe. No difference If you believe or have faith or have no exposure to some form of honest teachings from the Book, then you die, awaiting a resurrection for allegedly eternal life or a first chance. I think that's enough to get me into trouble with some other "Christians", so I won't mention the difference between hell and hellfire and to what each may apply. After all, I'm only a man and can't presume to know what's on God's Mind. I can read, study and pray. That can get you so far, at least in coming to peace with yourself and others, but it can't make you God. I mean, I know I'm stubborn and think I'm always right, but even I can tell the difference.
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planet news's Avatar
Registered User
All that needs to be said is this: no law constituting an object can, at the same time, be exhaustive of the material of the object.

This is a uniquely atheist position, because it is formulated under the idea that there is no such thing as totality, which means there can be no 'enclosure' on what is, which means that nothing can be thought to be outside being. It follows that there can be no 'enclosure' on anything whatsoever, no stopping point at which some interplay of cause and effect can fully determine being.



This is a discussion about whether or not that's true; no purpose is served by asserting it.

If you say you have more options than a rock, then I want to know what part of your physical mind is exempt from cause and effect in a way that the rock is not? What molecules in your brain operate independent of the rules that govern all the other molecules in the universe?



will.15's Avatar
Semper Fooey
I am governed by the laws of the uiniverse. That is true if God exists or not.

The rock cannot decide how it will live its life. I can.



And that decision comes from your physical brain, right? So how does your brain get to pick and choose how the matter inside itself reacts to things? Why can the molecules in your brain choose to go one way or another, but the rock can't? Are they special molecules, immune from causality?

And please, don't reply with another restatement of your claim like "I have more options" or "I can [decide]." I'm asking you to explain how this can be possible; repeating your position doesn't do that.