Name the first legitimately bad film on IMDB's Top 250

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planet news's Avatar
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Let's discuss this... I think it's an amazing film personally. First for your concessions: Establishing shots and all the cinematography are some of the best I've ever seen. Not only this but the compositions themselves are really rich and some of them, heck, a lot of them, could be sold as prints that I would proudly hang on my wall. Of course the performances were spot-on. I needn't even mention names here, but even the grunts on Willard's boat were great in their half-cocky, half-scared mentalities.

Its reworking of Heart of Darkness is one of the most creatively genius decisions in a long time. It goes far beyond a critique of the Vietnam war but a horror tale about the nature of mankind itself. The film is amazingly real too. It doesn't go the route of head-on surrealism by dowsing you with impossibilities or paradoxes. The film is entirely rational. Everything about it makes sense within a real context. Nevertheless, it is one of the most disturbingly surreal films for this very reason. There is something much more disturbing about Max Ernst's pedestrian collage period surrealism than Dali's intense, utterly distorted surrealism. You can shake off Dali easily. It's just his idea of a joke, you can say. But Ernst stays with you because though nothing was really out of place, things are still somehow wrong. Here my analogy might teeter a little bit because of Ernst's birdfaces, but I really get the same feeling from the face of Kurtz. Brando isn't quite human in this film, is he? Nothing is really what it is depicted as, and yet there is no Dalian tweaking of reality, only in the specific choices Coppola makes in presenting his subjects. This is his genius, I claim. The eerie yellow cast in the Napalm scene. The hellish bridge under attack that feels like the gate to the underworld. The modern reporter who is more of a savage than any of the natives. Nothing feels as it should here, and that's how the film succeeds in communicating the horrors of war without a great deal of impressionism, though much more disturbingly surreal than its counterparts--The Deer Hunter, Platoon, and Full Metal Jacket. Even the first shot works this way--the helicopter dissolved into the ceiling fan--for neither are what they seem. The helicopters are more like vultures and the ceiling fan is more like a helicopter. There is this horrifying reversal everywhere.

It is a visually stunning, emotionally intensive, and thematically consistent work of 20th century art and certainly among (if not at the top of) Coppola's best.
Strong post dude. I can certainly see why people like it even if I don't. It just it didn't connect with me in a way that I hoped it would. I remember the Marlon Brando scene being quite atmospheric, but other than that I just had a difficult time getting through it all. Your enthusiasm for it has almost convinced me to check it out again though.



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Damn, not quite enough!

I like surrealism (you can probably tell), but I'm almost tired of seeing it being done in the contemporary Charlie Kaufman way where things are just quirky and out of place. I like this surreal in the real that AN brings out, and I think it's one of those few films that really does this.

For that matter, I don't really connect with it either. It just disturbed the hell outta me!



Thursday Next's Avatar
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Ok, well, there are plenty of films I don't like in the top 100, but many of them have some redeeming features and plenty of arguments as to why they're good/important films that I have no counter-arguments to, much as they don't float my boat (Shawshank, It's a Wonderful Life, Apocalypse Now) and many which fall under the 'overrated' banner.

But the first film that I properly, genuinely think is a bad movie on there is Braveheart. I found this film ridiculous, self-indulgent and offensive and cannot understand its popularity at all.

I think it is inevitable that there will be more newer films with more votes, like Inception and the like, because people are more likely to go on and rate a film they've just seen at the cinema than think hang on, there was that good film I saw in 1948, I'll just go and give that it's five stars. The demographic is likely to be largely made up of younger people, because when you've got a job and kids and a mortgage your time for sitting in front of your computer endlessly rating films is more limited.

But I do take exception to the assumption made several times in this thread that films like Fight Club are only in there because they have been voted in by teenage boys who think they're cool. I know the type of voter you mean, but I'm pretty sure they voted for The Godfather, Taxi Driver and Pulp Fiction for the same reasons. But somehow that's ok because you like those films too. It's been a while since I rated anything on imdb but I'm willing to say I really like Fight Club. It's a fun, good-looking film adapted from an interesting and thought-provoking novel. And it has The Pixies on the soundtrack. I'm not going to be embarrassed out of liking a good film I enjoyed because some people want to make out that only teenage boys like it.



But the first film that I properly, genuinely think is a bad movie on there is Braveheart. I found this film ridiculous, self-indulgent and offensive and cannot understand its popularity at all.
thank you

I think it is inevitable that there will be more newer films with more votes, like Inception and the like, because people are more likely to go on and rate a film they've just seen at the cinema than think hang on, there was that good film I saw in 1948, I'll just go and give that it's five stars. The demographic is likely to be largely made up of younger people, because when you've got a job and kids and a mortgage your time for sitting in front of your computer endlessly rating films is more limited.
hence why this scale is insanely useless



Thursday Next's Avatar
I never could get the hang of Thursdays.
hence why this scale is insanely useless
I don't think it's completely useless. A lot of people in this thread have been rubbishing it, and if you take the imdb top 250 as some kind of definitive list of the best films ever made then yeah, you're doing something wrong. But I think it's interesting, nontheless, as a marker of popular taste, something to look at in conjunction with afi lists and bfi lists and rotten tomatoes and anything else like that. I guess I just like lists. It's definitely not something to be taken as some kind of gospel (not that I'd take a gospel as truth anyway, but go with it, it's just a turn of phrase...) but I think it is worthwhile to have a thread discussing it like this one. There are lots of flaws, as well as favouring new films and films voted for by younger people and (as with anything internet based) people who spend a lot of time on the internet (which, although the internet is becoming more popular, really isn't representative of the entire world's population), it also obviously favours films that have been seen by a lot of people; your obscure foreign masterpiece doesn't get a look in compared to the latest Christopher Nolan film. It has international in the name but I'm dubious. I think it's interesting to see what rises and falls in the list. I wonder whether people who give something a 10 when they leave the cinema with their mind blown go back and revise their rating when they've been underwhelmed by the dvd. I think there's a lot of bandwagon jumping and people giving films high ratings just because they think they ought to. I wonder if the backlash effect is as prevalent, Fight Club is still there so I doubt people have gone back and changed their rating just because it's apparently not cool to like it anymore. I think as with all internet rating systems it's prey to the 10 star/ 1 star moron voting system (the old bbc review archive used to be full of films that either got 5 or 1 star, people apparently seeing it as some kind of either/or love/hate option and forgetting to use the 2, 3 and 4 star buttons).

I'm rambling now, but in general, I think it's interesting, flawed, certainly, but not totally useless.



It's definitely not something to be taken as some kind of gospel
The problem is so many people do, same with rotten tomatoes. It's scary that people can't think for themselves and just listen to people who don't even critique films anymore, they just bash them without criticism or praise them blindly.
(not that I'd take a gospel as truth anyway, but go with it, it's just a turn of phrase...)
lol I like you
but I think it is worthwhile to have a thread discussing it like this one.
I agree, well obviously, considering the ten pages were built upon rather than just redundant



The thing is, it's become so easy to just watch films that you have been reassured by some authority are 'classics' or your mates have all said it's brilliant. There are a lot of underrated films that are not necessarily shunned by quality but because people aren't adventurous with what they see.
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planet news's Avatar
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I usually hate to like films that MOST people like (vain originality and so on), but I like to have at least one other source say it's worthwhile.



But the first film that I properly, genuinely think is a bad movie on there is Braveheart. I found this film ridiculous, self-indulgent and offensive and cannot understand its popularity at all.
Agreed.



Now WHY are these notions felt toward Braveheart? I'm only asking because I agree and want to hear other people's reasons. Also is it wrong to dislike a film mostly because it was historically inaccurate or moreso acceptable to dislike a historically inaccurate film that pretends to be accurate? (like braveheart and gladiator)



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you can hate on them for their historical inaccuracy if you feel that the film needed to be in a historical sense. For me, I haven't seen Braveheart, but a movie like Gladiator has much more to fall back upon other than historical context.



Bright light. Bright light. Uh oh.
You should never dislike a film if it's not historically accurate. I mentioned this elsewhere but I said earlier that History changes almost every year. I didn't mean that Marty McFly flew back in a DeLorean to change it. I meant what evidence we have about what history means changes almost every year with all the new discoveries. Obviously the history of the universe has changed a hell of a lot just since I've been born. I think from 1956 to now (54 years), the Universe has aged at least 10 billion years.
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But specifically Braveheart: we know that William Wallace had nothing to do with the pseudonym of Brave Heart, we know he didn't care about freedom (of others), we know that the battle of stirling bridge took place on...a bridge, and we know that the scottish were just as much of barbarians as the english were made out to be in the film (so technically it's propaganda?).

I'm not arguing that we find out new stuff about the past all the time but in these period pieces there's at least a decent enough foundation to where we don't have to resort to making dumb things up



It's called poetic license and, with greater or lesser effect, it's used or needed in every period/historical drama. I do hate Braveheart, though, as you'll probably learn the more you're on the site or, more specifically, the more I am.



planet news's Avatar
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You should never dislike a film if it's not historically accurate. I mentioned this elsewhere but I said earlier that History changes almost every year. I didn't mean that Marty McFly flew back in a DeLorean to change it. I meant what evidence we have about what history means changes almost every year with all the new discoveries. Obviously the history of the universe has changed a hell of a lot just since I've been born. I think from 1956 to now (54 years), the Universe has aged at least 10 billion years.
THIS.

Absolutely agree, mark.




I think from 1956 to now (54 years), the Universe has aged at least 10 billion years.
Is that true? Is there some kind of Universe clock that's much, much more faster than Earth time?

I wonder how old I am in the Universe. I hope I don't look like a prune.



That could never happen SC, you're forever young in all universes, regardless of time!

Re:Historical accuracy. You shouldn't hate a film because it's historically inaccurate... However, if you hate a film and it is, by all means, use that stick to beat the crap outta it.



I dislike Braveheart too but the theme music is just awesome and you have to agree with me

Another movie that came to my mind is Kick-Ass. I personally didn't like it at all and in my opinion it was boring and a waste of my time. All in all it's not genuinely bad so it doesn't qualify for this thread