Joker origin Movie

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“Sugar is the most important thing in my life…”
Are we doing spoilers here?


WARNING: "What is the reality of this?" spoilers below
Was it all in Arthur's mind? Did some of it happen, some of it not?


WARNING: "What is the reality of this?" spoilers below
I would just root for the Thomas Wayne baby mama drama to be true. With the Bats/Puddin' storylines being so prominent, they also lack for originality a lot. If they were brothers, even if it was never explored further, I enjoy the idea of imagining the aftermath.


The last scene with the "Scooby Doo" hallway, seems to tip the viewer that it was all a hallucination. How else do you explain putting something so far out of context with the rest of the movie in.



“I was cured, all right!”
Surprise, surprise! I loved the film. I'll watch again before saying more, but one thing I'm sure: the violence is well done!



Ami-Scythe's Avatar
A bucket of anxiety
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Last I checked, it had a 69% certified fresh on RT (nice), so most critics seem to like it...for now.

By all accounts, it's meant to be a standalone.
Actually, I heard that their algorithm isn't based on just fresh tomatoes, it's based on any rating that isn't "I wouldn't let my foot watch it." So a lot of critics might've thought it was just okay but collectively it's a high percentage. Just some information from a podcast of critics I thought I'd share.
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Ami-Scythe



Ami-Scythe's Avatar
A bucket of anxiety
I had a miserable time and not the way I was supposed to. It just drags on and on about how terrible "JOkEr'S" life is with a pay off that just wasn't satisfying for me. It's edited like a trailer, the interesting concepts are thrown in the toilet, there's no coherent plot, the time period it's set in has nothing to do with anything that happens, it's emotionally manipulative, repetitive, and needlessly preachy, it's a waste of Phoenix's talent, it was horrifically boring and was basically some kid's passion project about mental health awareness with the so called Joker attached to it for safety. It's a bad mental health movie, it's a bad Joker movie, it is a bad. Movie. And until my husband and I get a car, I'm not going to the theater to watch anything else. This. Sucked.



Welcome to the human race...
Wait tell ya guys rewatch it on the smaller screen, at home...then see if you still love it.
Same, if only because I question the claim that this has great cinematography.

One of the bigger issues I had with the film was the SJW politics in it. It's a film about violence but the only people who were allowed to be victims in the film were the awful white males. I liked the ambition of the film I felt like it captured 1980's New York well enough (still felt like a movie set unlike say The Deuce). My issue with the film is that it lacked focus, if it was going to be a political story then it really needed to focus on mental health not on wealth and politics. That should have played a much smaller role in the film that you discover on rewatches. This was very much Phillips aping Scorsese and he didn't get a lot of the points and messaging of those 70's and 80's Scorsese films.
WARNING: "Joker" spoilers below
I would contest that his mother was a victim - the bit where he smothers her with a pillow comes across as a little too cruel/vengeful to be a simple mercy killing (to say nothing of whether or not he ended up attacking either Zazie Beetz or the psychiatrist from the last scene, but neither one is confirmed or overly implied so nah). And also Martha Wayne, obviously. Besides, considering that said white males are falling victim to another white male, doesn't that technically cancel it out?


I do think the film is trying to draw a connection between mental health and wealth/politics, though - Arthur only really starts to lose control once his psychiatry program gets its funding cut and he can't get his meds, he finds out the "real" connection his mother has to Thomas Wayne (a billionaire who suddenly wants to go into politics, which sounds familiar), the way that rich figures like Wayne or Murray Franklin look down on him simply for existing while abnormal, etc. Definitely needed more focus, sure, but more on examining the connection between the topics than merely flip-flopping on which one deserved attention from one scene to the next.
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I don't think Joker is a great film, but as someone who's been through the mental health system like Arthur Fleck it resonated with me quite a bit. The system is just not built to help men who're severely mentally ill, just as the black woman in the beginning said. There are people who fall through the cracks and end up getting worse in spite of what the system tries to do. It's a very real problem, and to me the movie's trying to shine a light on that which is very nice to see.

People who understand the struggle of going through the mental health system, like myself, will get a lot more out of this movie than people who have no experience with it.



Welcome to the human race...
WARNING: "What is the reality of this?" spoilers below
Was it all in Arthur's mind? Did some of it happen, some of it not?


[/font] I would just root for the Thomas Wayne baby mama drama to be true. With the Bats/Puddin' storylines being so prominent, they also lack for originality a lot. If they were brothers, even if it was never explored further, I enjoy the idea of imagining the aftermath.


The last scene with the "Scooby Doo" hallway, seems to tip the viewer that it was all a hallucination. How else do you explain putting something so far out of context with the rest of the movie in.
WARNING: "Joker/Spectre" spoilers below
On the other hand, remember how Spectre added a twist that Bond and Blofeld were long-lost adopted brothers and everyone compared it to the Goldmember reveal that Austin Powers and Dr. Evil were twin brothers?


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Actually, I heard that their algorithm isn't based on just fresh tomatoes, it's based on any rating that isn't "I wouldn't let my foot watch it." So a lot of critics might've thought it was just okay but collectively it's a high percentage. Just some information from a podcast of critics I thought I'd share.
Yeah, I'm aware of that. Like if everyone were to rate on a scale from 1-10 then 1-5 would all be "rotten" and 6-10 would all be "fresh".



Was it Krusty who said everything is ripped off nowadays lol

I dunno man, for me they were the weaker parts of the film
I guess my question was: take away the comics references & the title and would audiences have recognized this as Batman's Joker, or would it be seen as a stand alone original film having nothing to do with comic books or characters in previous movies?
Most likely the former.



Most likely the former.
So you're saying: take away all comic references and audiences would still identify this as DC's Joker?
The comic fans probably would, but they probably wouldn't have watched it in the first place lol



“Sugar is the most important thing in my life…”
No sequel, eh? Search the internet. Here's one I read.



My cynical nature wins again. After the movie comes out, now the quotes are flying.


Long live the Brothers Gotham!



Haven't watched it yet but a friend of mine said it was really good, so might have to check it out soon



Ami-Scythe's Avatar
A bucket of anxiety
Don't get mistaken, this film is not about the seventies and eighties in Gotham, its about a entire generation in the twenty first century.
So why isn't it set in the twenty first century? Why isn't it set in NY? Why did they make a movie about The Joker? This is why I hate this movie.



So why isn't it set in the twenty first century? Why isn't it set in NY? Why did they make a movie about The Joker? This is why I hate this movie.
I didn't anticipated this before watching the film, I was expecting something different, I didn't expect to see much of my mentality, my view of society true the eyes of a anarchistic nihilist sociopath murderer, I came out of that theater with my emotional bag held by a thread, I was ashamed, not just his views but what he did with what he experienced, he tried to make people laugh, that is exactly my escape in day-life, if people, really close people actually knew what I think about certain subject they'd be blown away, I'm in a way hiding my perspectives from other people, like so many people do, so, the honesty I'm always talking about in this forum is something I don't really do in real life, here I don't care about ridicule because I don't know anyone here. The director would never tell you that he focused on today mindsets, how some, not to say most, because I can't talk for other people, see today society. There are more and more people that either do what everyone once did, try to belong, be accepted or be themselves and subject themselves to ridicule. Some people can adapt, other's can't. Isn't set in the twenty first century, isn't set in NY, is about the joker because of the audience he wanted to see his film, is exactly the audience that can, not just empathize, but see themselves in the character. The joker was the perfect character, no one knew what lead Arthur to become the joker, the author used what he believe is the mindset of most of the people he knew was going to watch his film, and he used that, successfully we can now say. We live in a depressed era, and this film is seen as dangerous because it offers a sense of glorification. Like Bukowski said:

We are Born like this
Into this
Into these carefully mad wars
Into the sight of broken factory windows of emptiness
Into bars where people no longer speak to each other
Into fist fights that end as shootings and knifings
Born into this
Into hospitals which are so expensive that it’s cheaper to die
Into lawyers who charge so much it’s cheaper to plead guilty
Into a country where the jails are full and the madhouses closed
Into a place where the masses elevate fools into rich heroes



Ami-Scythe's Avatar
A bucket of anxiety
I didn't anticipated this before watching the film, I was expecting something different, I didn't expect to see much of my mentality, my view of society true the eyes of a anarchistic nihilist sociopath murderer, I came out of that theater with my emotional bag held by a thread, I was ashamed, not just his views but what he did with what he experienced, he tried to make people laugh, that is exactly my escape in day-life, if people, really close people actually knew what I think about certain subject they'd be blown away, I'm in a way hiding my perspectives from other people, like so many people do, so, the honesty I'm always talking about in this forum is something I don't really do in real life, here I don't care about ridicule because I don't know anyone here. The director would never tell you that he focused on today mindsets, how some, not to say most, because I can't talk for other people, see today society. There are more and more people that either do what everyone once did, try to belong, be accepted or be themselves and subject themselves to ridicule. Some people can adapt, other's can't. Isn't set in the twenty first century, isn't set in NY, is about the joker because of the audience he wanted to see his film, is exactly the audience that can, not just empathize, but see themselves in the character. The joker was the perfect character, no one knew what lead Arthur to become the joker, the author used what he believe is the mindset of most of the people he knew was going to watch his film, and he used that, successfully we can now say. We live in a depressed era, and this film is seen as dangerous because it offers a sense of glorification. Like Bukowski said:

We are Born like this
Into this
Into these carefully mad wars
Into the sight of broken factory windows of emptiness
Into bars where people no longer speak to each other
Into fist fights that end as shootings and knifings
Born into this
Into hospitals which are so expensive that it’s cheaper to die
Into lawyers who charge so much it’s cheaper to plead guilty
Into a country where the jails are full and the madhouses closed
Into a place where the masses elevate fools into rich heroes
Maybe that's where the disconnect is. Maybe it's because unlike most others, I don't nod along to anyone being preachy in order to make themselves sound smart so that they too can feel smart when they're just spitting the same trash anyone anywhere could spit without thinking about it. "Rich bad. Poor good. Mental health suck. We need fix system. Fight system. Is Joker btw. Just want bring u here to say 'we live in society.'" Maybe I just want a film that mixes the black and white paint a little bit. Maybe I want to be taken seriously and not be treated like the only way I'm going to listen to something so called "meaningful" is if you flash a silly character in my face. It's this approach to serious situations in life that's keeping them from being solved. Joker was personally a waste of my time and realistically a waste of everyone else's because it will be forgotten within the next year.



Joker was personally a waste of my time and realistically a waste of everyone else's because it will be forgotten within the next year.
Because you personally didn't get anything out of it, the film is a waste of everyone's time? Get a grip.



Well, I guess it's your opinion, and you're entitled to it. The magnificent and scary thing about opinions is that, everyone can have it's own, and in the end of the day no one really cares, because it's just another, and there are plenty, and the reason people also don't give them much importance is because they know the sources by what kind of opinion someone have, and this is not just about opinions, is about something that can really affect people, like this film showed in various ways, you fell alienated when you fell you don't have relevance, it's worse, far worse when you're naive to the point of not seeing what other people can do to you when you're authentic, that's the case of Arthur, his a grown man that's so naive, his like a child speaking about how he lives with his mother, like that's not a problem nowadays, being ridiculed for that, being supported by someone because they're just pitying you, so just he can joke about you the next day, you laughing at things other people don't, don't getting the jokes other people find funny, all the things that make you an easy target to those who own the labels and rules, to those who created insecurities, those are the rich people in this film. In the end Arthur accepts it, and introduced a little anarchy, that's the biggest common point between Taxi Driver and The Joker. This is not a film saying rich people are bad and poor people are good, that was not the intention, if you got that, please try to consider it otherwise, your seeing it superficially, this is much more than that, but I really can't explain, when I was watching the film it was personal, and I believe for some people was the same thing, that's why some love it, some hate it. I think the author managed to put a mirror in front of many people in the audience, me very-very much included. I was so naive while growing up, I got ridiculed so many times for how I saw things, and I learned how to adapt, this is a story of someone that didn't, and in the end he got tired of it all.