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Are you suggesting some people prefer it be IN the way?
What if Holden found out about her past BEFORE they started an intimate relationship? He was learning new things about her already, what if he learned that she'd been in a threesome before?
Can you imagine that ruining their friendship, does that seem like the kind of thing that would prevent him from talking with her, laughing with her, and hanging out?
I don't think so, and I say that because a lot of people have this weird separation in their heads where you can be friends, more than friends, or nothing. There's no room for "let's try a deeper relationship and see if it works out, if not we'll just be friends" and suddenly things that would have been overlooked as a friend are personally accosting as a sexual partner.
Can you imagine that ruining their friendship, does that seem like the kind of thing that would prevent him from talking with her, laughing with her, and hanging out?
I don't think so, and I say that because a lot of people have this weird separation in their heads where you can be friends, more than friends, or nothing. There's no room for "let's try a deeper relationship and see if it works out, if not we'll just be friends" and suddenly things that would have been overlooked as a friend are personally accosting as a sexual partner.
BUT -- what if that had also caused Holden to not seek a relationship with Alyssa if he knew about the men? It's VERY possible, I think, that the deep affection for Alyssa might have grown because of the idea that Holden thought she was a lesbian and hence a virgin when it came to men. He might have just wanted a virgin woman, ya know? Sex with women might have just been silly, non-sexual things to him -- in case, that is the case, because it's like when they had their chat on the swings and she said "there's more ways to make love than just penetration." But he didn't buy that. And I noticed in your review that you, yourself, didn't seem to buy into the many different ways you can "make love." As in, fisting is not sex to you. Or licking genitals, as I believe you put it. Ohhhh, but it is. It can be considered sex, absolutely.
Anyway, Holden didn't buy into the idea that her lesbian sex was real sex. He basically thought she was a virgin. And she didn't reveal that she was otherwise.
So... probably.... Alyssa's appeal to Holden probably depended some on Alyssa being a lesbian. He was, basically, a lesbian chaser. He LIKED the fact that she had no other men to compare him to. But when he found out she DID.... the passion started to go away. The fantasy was over.
It's possible Holden and Alyssa may not have even become a couple if Holden knew about her thing with men, or about how "experimental" she was. Banky and Holden could have talked it over and Holden could have been like, "You know what? I don't want her. She's been with too many guys - I don't like that." But he finds out DURING the relationship.... that makes it complicated. It's complicated because he really doesn't wanna lose her... but he hates the change in direction.
It's all very psychological. Love is a messy, complicated business because so much of it is about our own psychologies. What works depends on our own minds and if we can resolve conflicts without screwing it up. But resolving those conflicts isn't as simple as 1-2-3. It may SOUND easy in theory, but it's NOT always easy in practice. Thus, I think you might be a bit naive about all this. You seem to me.... rather optimistic. Like a newbie. Or else you've just been lucky with your own love relationships. You seem to have simple, sweet answers to everything. I say it's not always so simple.
So being her first penis is some sort of badge of pride that he didn't want to lose so he broke it off? Even if she lied to his face that's profoundly shallow.
You're suggesting again that she's just nuts.
The problem with that is there's no narrative confirmation of it and women being fickle emotional idiots is a common trope in movies. It's far more likely that she was just written poorly.
The problem with that is there's no narrative confirmation of it and women being fickle emotional idiots is a common trope in movies. It's far more likely that she was just written poorly.
That's not confirmed by the movie either. In fact, Alyssa outright tells Holden why it bothers her. It reinforces his slanted perspective of her in his mind by assuming that she'd just be cool with it when she's stated that she's not that kind of person anymore.
This is backed up by their argument in the parking lot when she said she liked the way he originally felt about her. She doesn't want to lose that which is why she glossed over the truth. Now he's suggesting we feed directly into that so that HE can get over it, but that fails to consider her feelings on the matter.
It'd be kind of like finding out your partner accidentally killed a kid in a car crash and despite them feeling really guilty about it, you weren't able to let it go. Then you come back to them and suggest getting into a car together and running over some children so you can get over it. It's missing the point of why they concealed that information in the first place.
This is backed up by their argument in the parking lot when she said she liked the way he originally felt about her. She doesn't want to lose that which is why she glossed over the truth. Now he's suggesting we feed directly into that so that HE can get over it, but that fails to consider her feelings on the matter.
It'd be kind of like finding out your partner accidentally killed a kid in a car crash and despite them feeling really guilty about it, you weren't able to let it go. Then you come back to them and suggest getting into a car together and running over some children so you can get over it. It's missing the point of why they concealed that information in the first place.
Holden's issues seem to point to him wanting to know what it's like to be "experimental" just like she was. Why else does he come to the idea of having a threesome with Alyssa? Is it really because he wants to work things out with his girlfriend and his best friend -- or is it because he wants to work out something going on WITH HIMSELF? Probably the latter. I mean, if you date someone who accidentally ran over kids with your car, and you wanted to know what that was like, wouldn't that mean you probably ALWAYS wanted to do something crazy like that?
All of this is of course assuming that a threesome X many years ago is even that kind of a moral atrocity to begin with.
Holden doesn't appear capable of being able to accept that people can change. I'm sure he's done some stupid **** before. They emphasize the liberal/conservative angle wherein people look at things with different general perspectives. Alyssa may not have thought sex like that was that big of a deal, but what if she learned about something Holden had done that he didn't think was that big of a deal?
All of this just goes to inform that these kinds of things should be dealt with before they can become problems.
Holden doesn't appear capable of being able to accept that people can change. I'm sure he's done some stupid **** before. They emphasize the liberal/conservative angle wherein people look at things with different general perspectives. Alyssa may not have thought sex like that was that big of a deal, but what if she learned about something Holden had done that he didn't think was that big of a deal?
All of this just goes to inform that these kinds of things should be dealt with before they can become problems.
They were feeding off of each other. She gets the cute guy who thinks he's a macho stud, her FIRST real man. He gets the virgin lesbian who's never had a man. Neither are real. The relationship was all a fantasy. For both of them. But if you ask me -- she started it. She started it because she fed him the idea that she was a virgin with men. She seduced this little puppy dog with issues into following her around, thinking she had a bone he wanted, and instead, the bone had already been devoured by other dogs. Then when the dog actually tries to forget about the bone and act more like how she acted to get her love, she doesn't want the dog anymore.
I know she's a woman and I know you probably think I'm ripping her apart because she's a woman, but I'm sorry, she's a woman who plays head games. Even at the end of the movie, when she's with her new lesbian lover at the comic convention, the lover asks about Holden, "Who was that guy?" Alyssa coyly responds, "Oh, just some guy." Does Alyssa tell the total truth? Nope. Covers it up. Let's not talk about it! That's okay if she wants to cover it up, but I think it's another sign that she's a sly, sneaky girl, who wants things to be exactly as she wants them to be.
Mind games require an exchange and a lot of what Holden was dealing with was contradictions to his assumptions.
His claim to Banky that "she's totally into me" reads as pure delusion to me.
His claim to Banky that "she's totally into me" reads as pure delusion to me.
Unless you put a presumptive weight on everything she says being veiled and read-between-the-lines kind of dialog, but playing those mind games, whether you're the speaker or the listener is almost ALWAYS a source of problems.
