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I never put more than one point into each stat, well almost never. As Seds says, Perception (it'll show up enemies on the HUD more quickly) and Agility (which determines the AP points you get to spend in VATS) are important ones but I've got by perfectly well without pumping any extra points into them.

Charisma is useful because it allows you to talk your way out of some situations and you get to see some excellent conversation trees.

Didn't think the skills in F3 were unbalanced at all, actually, maybe because I don't play with one overriding high roller. That's me - Mr Average.

I'll check the new thread later (expecting visitors any second, argh) but feel free to add my earlier shallow, inane, ill thought out drivel. I'll be sure to add some more later.

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"Critics are like eunuchs in a harem; they know how the Tatty 100 is done, they've seen it done every day, but they're unable to do it themselves." - Brendan Behan

That's interesting, because every place I've found so far has repeated, in not unforceful terms, that I apparently do not want to try to spread my SPECIAL points around, and that I should definitely pick two or three skills to build up at the expense of others. I imagine this depends quite a bit on how each of us like to play, though for sheer survival and effectiveness in exploring and completing questions this seems to be gospel among the Walkthrough/FAQ writers, though admittedly they're probably all coming at it from the same perspective. Have you run into any problems/advantages to the gradual/across-the-board stuff?

Sounds like I could use more Agility. I seem to take way, way less damage when fighting with VATS, but I run out quickly.

I like Charisma for exactly the reason you describe -- I'm interested in conversation trees. But maybe your average gamer cares a lot more about killing and leveling up. I dunno. That's never really been my bag, though; I care about being all completist only once I'm sold on the world as a whole, so it's a pretty important part of things for me.

No rush on the other thread. I'll copy some of your thoughts there, though I'll have to do it as me quoting you, as a simply move would screw up the timeline and make the earlier posts the first ones in the thread. Stupid linear flow of time.

There's no question in my mind that Intelligence is the most important attribute in the game. Skill points is key and you get double the skill points with an Intelligence of 10 than if you leave it at the default 5. The Educated perk at level 4 is also mandatory since it grants another 3 skill points each level.
In the end it's not about your S.P.E.C.I.A.L points, it's about your skills. Your damage with small guns (conventional ammunition) is dependent on how many skill points you've put into that category.
The aforementioned conversation trees are dependent on your speech skill and while and extra attribute point in charisma raises the speech skill by 10 points you can still put as many skill points as you like into that category, regardless of your charisma stats. And if you've put your intelligence to 10 you get an extra 10 points each level, 13 with the educated perk. You see where I'm coming from right?
As Sedai mentioned Agility is important but aside from the compass markers all it really does is raising your sneak and small guns skills by 20 points each, if you've raised Agility to 10. But if you raise Intelligence to 10 you get 20 skill points to distribute each level (10 more than normal). Which means that 5 points to Agility equals merely 4 levels worth of skill points with an Intelligence of 10.
In my view the game is unbalanced since Intelligence is really the only attribute worth enhancing because, aside from the compass markers, amount of equipment you can carry etc, everything comes down to skill points.

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The Freedom Roads

We used to have a concept in M:TG called "Winning more." Basically, a deck would have a clear path to victory, but a player would make more moves to make his victory look even stronger before closing the game out. This slow roll strategy didn't REALLY have anything to do with the actual match, and who won or lost, it just "won more."

The Intelligence strategy you mention seems to fall under this category to me. You don;t need 20 skill points to get by or even do really well in Fallout, so you are just winning more. If anything, it;s removing difficulty, so it's actually bad in some cases. I guess it's each players choice. Feel like putting things heavily in your favor? Win more.

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Quite an easy game it took me a like 8-9 hours of game time to clock it. Graphics are amazing I'll give 'em that but still I don't think it was that exciting. Again you kill around thousand Heggs but still they could have added more to it. Got Bulletstorm today I'll check it out later hope its a bit more entertaining. Oh and I can't remember was there any women in Killzone 2 couse they finally introduced 1 in KZ3 and how do does Helgast reproduce I mean they are nazi/communist people and not a single woman weird

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I'm in movie heaven

*Shrugs* I've played through the main storyline in Fallout 3 five times at least (on default difficulty, lest anyone think I'm soft ) and have never felt the need to overload one of my starting stats.

Levelling up is where the real fun starts but it's rare that I would get to the endgame with more than 2 or 3 skills anywhere near maximum. Of course, the playthrough might take me 40-50 hours and that suits me fine. Pretty sure I've done every quest and sidequest in the game (on different playthroughs, though) as well.

Don't think I've ever had an intelligence higher than +1 either so do I think it essential? Much as in life, quick wits tops book learnin'.

EDIT - I think I told Sedai this too when he started: Bobbleheads are your friends.

Hehe. Good to know. My guess is that all the guides saying this stuff are representing people who are probably being sort of myopic about goals, favoring things like raw killing power or completion or something like that.

I do think the bit about intelligence garnering you more points per level elsewhere is pretty powerful, though; I was prompted to pick a perk when I first left the vault, and I picked "Fast Learner" because of those compound effects. K, is that the skill you were referring to earlier?

Fast learner is +10% experience whenever experience is earned right? I'd take that too but the one I was talking about was the Educated perk. I looked it up on the fallout wiki and it's a level 4 perk and you need to have at least 4 Intelligence. It grants an additional 3 skill points each level. Gotta have it.

I get what you're saying. But the game allows you to do it and if it makes the game too easy you can always change the difficulty setting. An RPG is about building your character to your liking and if you want a dumb brawler or a dim witted ninja by all means put a bunch of points into strength or agility. But when I play an RPG I want my character to be all he can be. Within the game rules of course. Which it is.
If you're playing a mage in some game and you get the option to cast a bigger fireball, wouldn't you do it? I mean you might not need it but, hey, it's a bigger fireball.

Ah, if it's level 4 then I guess I haven't seen it yet. I think I only get to level 2 when I first leave the vault, yeah?

Re: leveling up in general. I guess it depends. Seds is right that you don't want the game to be too easy, though I'm guessing maxing out on the most useful SPECIAL stats probably isn't going to make the game a cakewalk. Or any less astounding than it first appears to be.

This is definitely going in my signature at some point.

I don't think it would no. You are, after all, sacrificing every other attribute and there are gameplay perks related to most of them. Agility grants more Action Points, Strength let's you carry more, perception gives you better accuracy in VATS and so on and so forth.

I don't really feel the need to be casting big fireballs at the end of level 2 though.

It's like doing another playthrough of Mass Effect keeping your levels from your previous completed game - I've never felt the need to do that and would much rather start again from scratch and see where things lead me.

Makes sense.

This is very helpful stuff, guys. I'm trying to learn just enough that I won't feel a strong need to go back and re-do things. Trying to figure out which things I'm least likely to regret.

Just got back from Costco picked this one up for ther kiddies.

Yeah, I didn't mean to give the idea that I was some drooling dumb ass that only played these games in shooter style - I actually dislike Soldier type characters, and always tend to play stealth-ish styles. For instance I play Infiltrator in the Mass Effect series.

FIVE times through the game, Taccy? I got 3-5 hours into my second attempt at the game and it was PAINFUL. The AI in Fallout is SO bad.

Man, I was just thinking - this is a film site. Why aren't people completely over the moon for Mass Effect II? THE most wonderfully flowing cinematic game... Lisa and I constantly blown away by the excellent production values, voice acting, and immersion of the game. Many well written characters with long, deep character arcs...Last time we played, we got to an event during which a main character died (I won't say who!!), and Lisa was in tears she had such an attachment to the character. Fallout is laughable in this department. Did my character have a name in that game? Gah! Terrible.

Yeah, I'll say it - Fallout 3 is an over-hyped, substandard, archaic RPG built into a ridiculously detailed and massive sandbox style game world that is depressing, repulsive and yawn-inducing. The characters are poorly drawn, shallow, and insipid in almost every way, and none of them have a character arc worth a damn. You have absolute freedom to go anywhere you want and do a multitude of erratic and disconnected tasks that all add up to ZIP. Not to mention the incredibly clunky combat system (VATS) that will have your eyes glazed over as you want a slow motion bullet over and over and over and...you get the idea.

Fallout 3

I'm sorry, but comparing the two is like comparing apples and oranges. They're both fruit but that's as far as it goes.

Mass Effect II is fantastic but I couldn't give a monkey's chuff if it's cinematic. The only problem I have with it is that there's not enough of an rpg there apart from the conversation trees - You'll get to the end of the game and you've maxed out nearly every facet of the class you choose at the start. Even the choice you get at the culmination of each skill doesn't offer a lot of actual choice.

As an actual role-playing game, Dragon Age is miles better but it doesn't have the polish of either Mass Effect game. I've said it before but Mass Effect = KOTOR and Jade Empire while Dragon Age = Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights.

Bethesda just do things differently and I've been a fan of theirs ever since Morrowind. Their strength is their ridiculously detailed and massive sandboxes. One man's depressing and repulsive is another man's blessed relief from Dungeons and Dragons and bloody space Marines.

Yes, Fallout 3 is flawed for a lot of the reasons (but maybe not as hyperbolic, heh) you mention. Characterisation is pretty basic when compared to a Bioware game but I don't think any development house can even approach Bioware in that department. All the tasks you say amount to zip give you exp and, a lot of the time, opportunities for rare or unique weapons and armour or bobbleheads which buff your character. Oh, and you can turn (at least you can in New Vegas, it's been a while since I played F3 so can't 100% confirm ) the cinematics off.

Their biggest problem is that creaky old engine the games are built around but I love the way that the company actively encourages the modding community. Oblivion and even Morrowind are fantastic looking games now, years after their release, thanks to PC modders and the FOOK mod for Fallout 3 smooths a lot of rough edges. The rough edges shouldn't be there to begin with, I know...

Skyrim is built around a new game engine and I can't wait for it.

Oranges are not the only fruit.

Not every game but a few, and I think you're right...because I had a problem for a while where the only way the machine would turn off was if I unplugged it, which led to corrupted data...Now I can play Uncharted 2 again. WOOOOO!

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"Like all dreamers, Steven mistook disenchantment for truth."

Have you tried deleting the stuff in your Game Data folder? Ok, that'll mean having to re-download dlc but usually it'll just involve games having to re-install themselves again.

It can't hurt anyway.

Using the same analogy, and considering Chris has very little time to squeeze this stuff in, why would you eat the fruit that doesn't taste as good just because it's different from the one that tastes better? I jsut feel that if you have time to play one or the other, ME2 is by far the most rewarding and engaging experience.

That said I did have fun exploring some of the Capital Wasteland, but mostly because they did a fantastic job with the detail and scope, which i already mentioned, That can't carry a player through a whole game though, at least not this player.

As you inferred, though - to each their own.

I was also in a piss of a mood yesterday, so I was probably whining a little. :-/

What happens if you like both fruits? I know Chris likes his sandboxes and Fallout is certainly that.

Me, I'm partial to melons... Hey, it had to be done.

Aaaanyway. ME2 is probably in my top 5 this gen and if you were aghast that I've played Fallout 3 five times in the 2-and-a-bit years since release I've probably done the same with Mass Effect - Certainly 5+ on the first one because I played it to death on PC before I even got an Xbox.

I can't honestly favour one franchise over the other - they're both flawed but their brilliance shines much more brightly.

One thing that Bioware are unquestionably better at is coding for the PS3. I've had New Vegas since launch for the 360 and it's solid as a rock, saw the PS3 version going cheap so picked it up out of curiosity to see if they had righted any of the Fallout 3 errors. Got to level 17 and found out that they hadn't - The gameplay is slowing markedly and I'm crashing (which need hard resets) pretty regularly.

The game's going on eBay at the weekend.