The Movie Forums Top 100 of All-Time Refresh: Countdown

Registered User

01-01-21

Raging Bull was on and off my ballot about four times before I sent it in, so was Rocky but another sports related drama got this spot on my ballot in the end. I like Falco's song but I haven't seen Amadeus yet.

Originally Posted by John-Connor

# 24

Raging Bull 1980 Directed by Martin Scorsese

2h 9min | Biography | Drama | Sport
Writers: Jake LaMotta, Joseph Carter
Cast: Robert De Niro, Joe Pesci, Cathy Moriarty, Frank Vincent, Nicholas Colasanto, Theresa Saldana, Mario Gallo, John Turturro

Originally Posted by John-Connor

Raging Bull 1980 (4th re-watch Blu-ray)

Although not my favorite Scorsese / DeNiro film, it's still a certified classic.
Scorsese's realest, rawest and most artful piece of cinema, and my second favorite Joe Pesci performance after Goodfellas.
The genre tags read biography, drama, sport, in that order, and that's exactly what you get.
A biopic of the often very unsympathetic 'animal' Jake LaMotta, mission accomplished.
The world, atmosphere and entourages of sharks and hyenas that have always surrounded the boxing sport and still do are very immersive.
True hall of famer imo, if not this round, surely at some point in the future.
Great nomination 'forget about it'..

Actor stats:
De Niro III
Hanks III
Norton II
Pitt II
Arnie II

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Skepsis93

Play It

01-01-21

Amadeus is another one of those lovely long historical dramas that's right up my street, so I should really like it and I do, but not enough to include it on my 25.

I have to say I'm surprised Raging Bull is this low, I was expecting the three Marty flicks that will certainly make it to be top 30 at least. It's good, but behind probably 8 of his others on my personal Scorsese ranking.

Yoda

Administrator

01-01-21

Originally Posted by rbrayer

Very interesting! I�d love to see all the lists when this is over. Do you typically put them out?

Depends on what you mean. If you mean everyone's ballots, we usually let them decide individually whether to share them. But if you mean the entire list, all films that received votes, yeah, I'll be doing that (and posting a bunch of stats about it all).

SpelingError

AKA Popcorn Reviews

01-01-21

Both of those are great films.

With Amadeus, I think it has a lot to ponder over, such as the question of whether natural talent exists and, if it does, whether God bestows it upon someone, whether Salieri was an unreliable narrator since several scenes of Amadeus went outside of Salieri's point of view but all felt like extensions of how Salieri viewed him, or how Amadeus, like McMurphy in Forman's One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, are both fighting against institutions which serve to keep them in their place. I also loved Salieri's character arc, Abraham's performance, and the Requiem scene.

I haven't seen Raging Bull in a while, but I remember it being top-tier Scorsese. I've been meaning to rewatch it though.

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KeyserCorleone

Msg

Registered User

01-01-21

I like Amadeus more than OFOtCN because the story feels more active, but both are five star movies. Raging Bull is a little overrated but it's still very good.

mark f

Bright light. Bright light. Uh oh.

01-01-21

Neither made my list. Holden already corrected me about my gibberish on Marty's use of B&W in Raging Bull.

Originally Posted by mark f

Amadeus (Milos Forman, 1984)

This reimagining of Peter Shaffer's play is surprisingly cast, but every single role seems to pay off. Tom Hulce is a leftover from Animal House as Mozart, yet he seems right and fully inhabits the character. F. Murray Abraham, who never had a role anywhere close before or since, deservedly won his Best Actor Oscar because he was just so delightfully envious and evil. Jeffrey Jones is a laugh riot as Emperor Joseph II who cannot grasp "too many notes", and Elizabeth Berridge shakes off her teen movie image to care about her beloved husband Wolfie.

Milos Forman went back to his homeland of the Czech Republic to film this story set in Vienna. The art direction, sets, costumes, wigs and makeup are all top-of-the-line. The musical passages show the genius of Mozart, even if one of the points of the film is that Genius is not always bestowed upon the most worthy or the most holy. In fact, one of the film's greatest scenes is when the religious Salieri throws a crucifix into a fire and basically tells Christ that he will attempt to block him wherever he can because he chose to lavish his Godly attributes on a boorish child who enjoys fart jokes.

If Amadeus is considered a musical, I'd probably call it the best musical from now back until Cabaret. It depicts a historical period, it takes some historical license to try to ratchet up the drama and the satire, it presents pieces of music in huge chunks and as historically-accurate as possible, and it's chief concern is where does music come from and who can appreciate it? Mozart's great works were often appreciated by the unwashed masses before the upper class due to political reasons.

Forman has always found himself allied with the outsider against society. Just look at his American films: Taking Off, One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, Hair, Ragtime, Valmont, The People vs. Larry Flynt, Man in the Moon, and this one. He is attracted to characters, who, rightly or wrongly, are outside the mainstream, so I assume that's the way that Forman sees himself. He is a very impressive, personal filmmaker, and I have to applaud him for that, as well as his filmography's excellence.

Originally Posted by mark f

Raging Bull (Martin Scorsese, 1980)

I'm not going to go into so much detail for this bonafide classic, although I feel it deserves it. The thing I really notice about it now is how much of a history all the characters played by De Niro and Pesci really have in their Scorsese films. In some ways, De Niro's paranoid, uncontrollable and pathetic Jake La Motta is far more psycho and complex than Travis Bickle, and I'm not trying to belittle or demean Taxi Driver in this post. It's just that La Motta has many of the things which Travis desires, yet he is still insecure and self-destructive. I find Raging Bull to be Marty's second best film, after GoodFellas. It's a terrific accomplishment, full of power and passion, but it's unrelentingly brutal. Jake La Motta seems to live his entire life in Hell on Earth. His paranoia is truly disturbing. Only near the end of the film does he get busted, even though he and his "slightly-more-mellow" Bro both deserve to go to jail more than a few times.

Aside from a minute or two of home movies shot in color, Raging Bull is photographed in striking black-and-white by future director Michael Chapman. I believe the reason for that is two-fold (sorry, Holds, I've never heard or read any commentary about it). First off, I believe that Scorsese wants to present the film "realistically" even though it's a highly-stylized melodrama and is not realistic at all, whether it be its depiction of boxing in general or La Motta's fights specifically. Second, I think that Scorsese may have been afraid that the film would have been too violent in color and that he wouldn't be allowed to get away with some of the more violent makeup effects during the boxing matches and a few other graphic scenes. Nevertheless, the heart and soul of the movie are the performances and some of the quieter scenes. Although the soundtrack and much of the action is pitched at an operatic level, it's the quieter scenes (often almost as melodramatic as the loud ones, but more menacing) which draw you into the film. Then again, it may not draw everyone in. My wife hates Raging Bull, and I can understand that repulsiveness is often hateful, but somehow Scorsese and De Niro are able to turn a "Monster" such as La Motta into a human being deserving of love and forgiveness. This was Sarah's first viewing of the film. I hope you don't report me for child abuse now.

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Last edited by mark f; 01-01-21 at 06:13 PM.

matt72582

Msg

Please Quote/Tag Or I'll Miss Your Responses

01-01-21

I saw "Amadeus" when I was about 16, and remember being annoying with Tom Hulce's constant screams and yelps, or whatever the hell that was.

"Raging Bull" was alright, but haven't seen it in a while, and it's not someone I'd watch in the future.

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Citizen Rules

Noir Time

01-01-21

Thank goodness! Gravity wasn't on the countdown! Ugh, I was worried there for awhile that maybe one of yesterdays clues pointed to Gravity. What a relief!

Amadeus & Raging Bull

Seen both, voted for neither. Liked Amadeus, didn't like Raging Bull. I'm not a Scorsese fanboy except his King of Comedy is to my liking.

Citizen Rules

Noir Time

01-01-21

Originally Posted by Citizen Rules

Raging Bull (Martin Scorsese 1980)

This is one of those highly acclaimed classics, that somehow I'd never seen before...until the other night that is. I really knew nothing about it other than it was about a boxer, which is a plus as I usually like boxing movies. Right off the bat I see this is done in black & white, which to me is another plus. Then I realize this is about a real boxer, Jake LaMotta. Bio pics set in period pieces is just the type of films I usually love. So far so good...

So I should have loved this, but I was bored to tears. Say what you will about critiquing styles, ultimately for me a film works or not, if it can hold me attention, and this didn't. I wanted to shut it off after 15 minutes but figured any movie this respected most get better, but for me it never did.

I didn't hate it, even worse I felt nothing, no emotions, zip. I've never been a fan of Robert DeNiro and here he didn't relay any emotions to me other than he was paranoid and even that wasn't really explored, not in any deeper way.

But maybe that's not his fault as Scorsese does his attempt at European New Wave cinema here. So I'd say the lack of story or character development is intentional on Scorsese's part.

Raging Bull to me felt like I was watching parts of a movie with the connecting scenes left on the editing floor. Snippets of a film...Jake's first wife disappears from the film without a trace. His second wife, reminded me of Kim Novak but without any of her inner qualities. She was the worst written & performed character in the movie. Joe Pesci was the best, he seemed inspired and alive.

I thought the boxing scenes were boring and usually those are the best part of a boxing film. The copious amounts of blood spraying out of the boxers head, reminded me of something from a Monty Python movie. I mean good grief it's a nozzle spraying the entire audience...it's kind of funny, though I don't think that was the intention.

Last edited by Citizen Rules; 01-01-21 at 11:02 PM.

TheUsualSuspect

28 days...6 hours...42 minutes...12 seconds

01-01-21

Count me in the not really liking Raging Bull category. It's definitely my least favourite Scorsese/DeNiro/Pesci collaboration.

Amadeus is a film I watched for the first Personal Recommendation HoF. Thought it was great, but a tad too long.

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edarsenal

Women will be your undoing, P�p�

01-01-21

Starting the second half strongly with an all-time favorite at #7 that won the Live Musical Hall of Fame (it was one of two of my noms):

Originally Posted by edarsenal

Amadeus

That, that was Mozart. . .

I had, literally, fell in love with this movie when I first saw it when it came out. Connecting on so many levels with both the character of Mozart and being blown away by Abrahams' brilliance playing Salieri.

"I'm a vulgar man, but I swear to you, my music is not."

While the very premise is fictional there were countless minor facts that were brought to this film. The billiard table that Mozart wrote from, the very fact that he wrote only once, no corrections; as if the music was "dictated", the tragic demise of being buried in a Potter's Field (a common grave for the poor) and for me, at that time, such things reverberated through me regarding the 'madness' of abandoning one's self to the "divination" of creativity and the parasitic price that it exacts.
As I've grown older, I began to appreciate, or rather, lessen my disdain for Salieri's jealousy and his own acceptance into mediocrity.

While so many films traverse this all too familiar road of greatness being a "vessel" and being cast aside afterward. While those who could not achieve that level, the pettiness that it brings. Amadeus creates something truly sublime and wondrously glorious even when the "price" is being exacted.

I am continually captivated by this movie and all that it entails. Even more so now, since, during that viewing, I also got to see, for the first time, The Director's Cut with some pertinent additional scenes. It is now my personal preference when re-visiting this film.

Originally Posted by edarsenal

Raging Bull

[Sugar Ray Robinson has just battered Jake La Motta half to death, but Jake has stayed on his feet]
Jake La Motta: You didn't get me down, Ray.

You know you're watching a pretty impressive, very well executed movie when, even though you hate the character, you still get caught up in the movie.
that was my experience for (finally) seeing this film. Which is a Must See and yeah, that's a cliche but hey, it is what it is and this is what it is. Ya know.

Scorcese really delves into the style and format of a story instead of simply doing it "his way". The story (film) dictates how he approaches it technically and Raging Bull is a prime example of that. The fights mimic LaMotta's style of fighting. Getting in close, always advancing, and very very brutal. I've seen quite a lot of boxing movies and while a few get you up close and personal, this is the first one that I didn't feel like just a spectator. I was in the clinch and cringing from the unrelenting onslaught. Even the huddles between rounds seemed like I could rest my arm on someone's shoulder as they talked strategy for the coming round.
And that kind of intimacy carried on to the scenes outside the ring just as well. I wasn't a spectator who could simply judge with lofty indifference, I was there, in Brooklyn, in the hot confines of their apartment homes and the crowded night clubs.

The real magic is that while I was "there" throughout the film, I didn't necessarily feel trapped or confined. Just very much involved in it all. The tension, the yelling, the threat of violence at every turn, the moments of weakness beneath the "bull" mannerisms; all of it.
And it was captured and expressed vividly - without the flash, without the glamour. It was real life, in Brooklyn, about a real bull of a man and those around him.

Movies Watched 39 out of 52 (75%)
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23. Metropolis (1927) #73
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25. Cyrano de Bergerac (1950) One Pointer

Rectification List
Day of the Jackal (1973) One Pointer
To Kill A Mockingbird (#85) *rewatch*[/quote]

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Last edited by edarsenal; 01-01-21 at 03:55 PM.

Citizen Rules

Noir Time

01-01-21

Maybe this will redeem me as film reviewer

Amadeus (Milos Forman 1984)

Three hours! That's how long this movie is...And I watched the extended Director's Cut which had an extra 20 minutes included! Making for a 180 minute movie...And I loved all 180 minutes!

What a well crafted story Amadeus is. The juxtaposition of Salieri, a man who makes a vow to his God so that he can become a musical virtuoso...and Mozart, a musical genius who's vulgar to the nth degree, but seems to make music that is otherworldly inspired by God himself. What an interesting contrast.

F. Murray Abraham was amazing in this. He made the film great. I loved the framing of the movie with an elderly Salieri who's utterly defeated with his battle with God, definitely telling the priest his life's story. We see how circumstance and self servitude destroys Salieri.

At times I thought the actor who played Mozart, Tom Hulce was quite good, at other times I thought he seemed to much an imbecile to be a genius. But that's the point of the movie...that a man who acted like an idiot was given an amazing gift of music, that was beyond the makings of a mere man. While the self righteous and pious Salari wallowed in meritocracy...as he was slowly driven mad by his jealousy of Mozart, a man who he both admired and hated.

I quite like the Emperor played by Jeffrey Jones. I like the way he said "well, there it is", when he made a decision, what a great line! On the other hand I didn't like the actress who played Mozart's wife. She was way too modern in the way she talked. She took me right out of Vienna 1823 and made me think I was watching someone from a 1980's TV show.

But luckily she's not the biggest part of the movie and I still was wowed by it. Part of that wow came from the sets, wow and double wow. I mean just look at those rooms with the gold gilt trim and the decadently beautiful furniture. What a stunning looking film and a Greek tragedy to boot. That's my kind of movie!

Last edited by Citizen Rules; 01-01-21 at 03:32 PM.

crumbsroom

Registered User

01-01-21

Can't remember if Amadeus was on my list, but should have been if it wasn't. F Murray Abraham is the greatest of any film villain, consumed by the enormous smallness he feels when standing next to true genius. He is the humbled huckster, the petulant child, the broken down romantic of the artist's mind laid bare. His fight is not against the rising star of Mozart, but the understanding of his own ultimate insignificance. The patron saint of the forgotten and unknown. He undoubtedly blesses me by the climax of the film, which I watch compulsively as a child, as if it was a map to my future. I'm sure I would have kissed the feet of Salieri, if I had only known.

Raging Bull took me a lot of attempts to find some kind of peace with. It's just about the most poetic film of Scorsese's career, but it seemed so unfriendly to its audience, being in its company was never much fun for me. I kind of watched it from a distance, like I might its titular animal. On a third or fourth viewing though, I broke through, finding the one vulnerable place in La Motta's DeNiro fatted belly I could slip inside. Much like Salieri in Amadeus, La Motta is a broken man, who spends his time breaking others, and all of the violence he directs out into the world is just the howl of his despair and lonelieness. You don't need to absolve him through watching him on screen, but you can at least sit long enough to listen to him cry out. Film watching as confessional. About as intimate as a movie can get.

MovieMeditation

Friendo.

01-01-21

I�m glad Fight Club dropped a good amount. I do think it�s really good and possibly even great, but it�s like the �holy grail of movies� to many and while you can still feel how different and groundbreaking it was today, I wouldn�t hold it up against the true masterpieces of cinema...

I didn�t vote for No Country for Old Men. But I�m glad to see it made the list. Lol who am I kidding y�all know I voted for that sh*t... BUT it wasn�t my number one. Who knew.

I suddenly realized these two weren�t the newest entries to pop up. I�m once again slow in all this... anyway, Amadeus I only just saw recently and it was amazing. Deserves all the praise it receives. Glad to see it here. Raging Bull has been too long for me. Saw it way back in my younger days and I don�t think I could quite grasp it all. So it�s up for a revisit some day...

edarsenal

Women will be your undoing, P�p�

01-01-21

LOOOVING these descriptive reviews for Amadeus!

Holden Pike

One Ornery Sumbitch

01-01-21

Originally Posted by matt72582

I saw "Amadeus" when I was about 16, and remember being annoying with Tom Hulce's constant screams and yelps, or whatever the hell that was.

It was laughter.

Tim Curry originated the role on stage (Ian McKellen was the original Salieri) and Mark Hamill took it over when he left and was seriously considered for the film by Milo� Forman before he went with Hulce.

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edarsenal

Women will be your undoing, P�p�

01-01-21

Originally Posted by Holden Pike

I had read, when asked where Tom Hulce got that laughter from, one of the things was a lot of Jack Daniels. lol

I'd be curious as hell to see both Curry AND Hamill as Amadeus and especially see McKellen's rendition of Saliere. That must have been something.

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