25. Mirage (1965) (DNP)
22. In the Heat of the Night (1967)
20. Le Samouraï (1967)
18. High and Low (1963)
17. The Driver (1978)
15. The Hit (1984) (DNP)
14. Collateral (2004)
12. SE7EN (1995)
11. Get Carter (1971)
08. The Hot Spot (1990)
06. Thief (1981)
05. Blow Out (1981)
04. One False Move (1992)
Watched Se7en when it first came out so I was part of that huge group of viewers who were essentially blown away by it. It was unlike anything I had ever seen before and I'm sure everyone else felt the same way. Films usually lose some of their luster with the passage of time but this is still a squirm inducing masterwork by David Fincher. I don't think I ever considered it for my ballot. It should have been but just got by me.
My jaw dropped when I read that @Thief didn't have this on his list. I knew how much he adored the film, having listened to him rave about it during his podcasts, so I figured he would be the guy that had it at #1. As far as it being neo-noir or not, I think it indisputably is. In fact, I would say it is one of the definitive neos of the 90s. It has all the hallmarks: the trench coat wearing detective in a hat, minimal lighting, long shadows, and a hell scape city which in this case is purposely not named, sometimes looking and feeling like New York, and later when they come out of the city, seemingly morphing into LA. There are even shots of street signs from both New York and LA in the film. This film is absolutely drowning in its noir stylings, from first frame to last.
Se7en was an easy pick for me, and I really wanted to push it as high as I could, but I couldn't in good conscience put it above any of my top 3 films. I lost count of how many times I have seen this film. It's one of my wife's favorites of all time, and often, she will just pop it on randomly at night and we always watch the entire thing.
On our most recent viewing, we were sitting around chatting with one of my wife's coworkers that had been babysitting our daughter that afternoon. We can home just after our daughter had gone to bed, and we got to talking about films. Se7en randomly came out, and this girl said "Oh...I think I have heard of that film, but I have never seen it." It was fun watching it with someone who knew pretty much nothing about it, watching their reactions to the twists and turns.
Easily deserving of a top 10 spot, so I am glad to see it at #6.
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“It takes considerable knowledge just to realize the extent of your own ignorance.”― Thomas Sowell
I had Se7en at #11 - no relation to the convenience store chain. For me, the thing that primarily makes it cross over into noir territory is the atmosphere. The cinematography has that vibe I based my entire list on, and once you add in weary detectives, and the moral decay that's prevalent all throughout the film, it really starts to scream neo-noir - or at least it does to me.
Seen: 53/95
My List: 17 01.
02. Blade Runner 2049 (2017) - #44 03. Kiss Kiss Bang Bang (2005) - #42 04. John Wick (2014) - DNP 05. Blue Ruin (2013) - #82 06. Mother (2009) - #67 07. Dark City (1998) - #24 08. Strange Days (1995) - #65 09.
10. The Man from Nowhere (2010) - #87 11. Se7en (1995) - #6 12. Reservoir Dogs (1992) - #16 13.
14. Angel Heart (1987) - #31 15. Infernal Affairs (2002) - #91 16. Memento (2000) - #8 17. Memories of Murder (2003) - #25 18.
19. Le Samouraï (1967) - #7 20. The Usual Suspects (1995) - #20 21. Oldboy (2003) - #52 22.
23. Nightcrawler (2014) - #21 24. 25. The Chaser (2008) - DNP 1-pointer
I loveSE7EN. Saw it five or six times theatrically when it was originally released and feverishly picked up the Criterion Collection boxed set Laser Disc edition the morning it was released, then spent the rest of the day obsessively pouring over every feature over and over again. Even with all Fincher has accomplished, SE7EN remains near the top of his filmography for me because it is so damn perfect.
That being said, I did not vote for it here. The only title from my ballot’s Top Ten that will not show is one of the first great films that signaled the Neo Noir renaissance that the 1990s were going to bring.
Adapted from pulp legend Jim Thompson’s novel, After Dark, My Sweet (1990) is a tale of a drifter, a punch-drunk ex-boxer Kevin “Kid” Collins (Jason Patric) who has recently escaped from yet another mental institution. Wandering down the desert roads near Palm Springs, CA a woman offers to give him a lift. She is Faye Anderson (Rachel Ward), a beautiful but depressed alcoholic living by herself. She offers Collins a place to stay in her guest house. Then enters “Uncle Bud” (Bruce Dern), a former cop turned ne’er-do-well. He remembers The Kid from his boxing days. He also knows he left the sport after he killed a man in the ring. Turns out Uncle Bud and Faye have been cooking up a little kidnapping scheme, and Collins may be the perfect third person they have been looking for.
The caper, such as it is, involves Collins dressing up as a chauffeur and simply arriving a few minutes early to a local prep school and hoping nobody pays that close attention to the help, then calmly driving off with a boy and ransoming him to his rich family. Like most Thompson stories, the crime itself barely matters. He was a master at writing non-judgmentally from the perspective of damaged, desperate, depraved, lost souls. Director and co-screenwriter James Foley (At Close Range, Glengarry Glen Ross) deftly adapts the book, capturing the tone and the characters perfectly. Jason Patric never quite became a movie star, but this performance as well as Joe Carnahan’s Narc (2002) show what kind of fine work he may have done given more opportunities. Rachel Ward is one of the sexiest actresses of her era, and she too perfectly inhabits this sad woman willing to cross the line who may still have some of her soul in tact. Bruce Dern…well Hell, he was born to play sleazy but charming fellas like Uncle Bud.
Builds to a very satisfying conclusion that is heroic and tragic. Jim Thompson country. Fantastic flick, and a perfect Noir. I couldn’t leave it off my ballot just because it had a small chance of placing.
HOLDEN'S BALLOT 4. Night Moves (#40) 5. High & Low (#19) 6. Nightcrawler (#21) 7. The Grifters (#45) 8. One False Move (#73) 9. Blast of Silence (#48) 10. After Dark, My Sweet (DNP) 11. Blow Out (#17) 12. To Live & Die in L.A. (#43) 13. The Naked Kiss (#51) 14. Angel Heart (#31) 15. Shallow Grave (#95) 16. The Yakuza (DNP) 17. Dead Again (#90) 19. The Limey (DNP) 21. Drive (#14) 22. The Hot Spot (#85) 23. Charley Varrick (DNP) 24. Blue Ruin (#82) 25. Johnny Handsome (DNP)
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"Film is a disease. When it infects your bloodstream it takes over as the number one hormone. It bosses the enzymes, directs the pineal gland, plays Iago to your psyche. As with heroin, the antidote to Film is more Film." - Frank Capra
Seven is a very good crime thriller. Neo-noir? Maybe. It's close enough and Mofo has spoken and determined it to be so. Besides I've got a couple on my list that are a maybe too.
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"Don't be so gloomy. After all it's not that awful. Like the fella says, in Italy for 30 years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder, and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly love - they had 500 years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock."
Continuing with titles from my ballot that couldn't make it.
The Postman Always Rings Twice (1981) was my #20.
As I've mentioned in the other noir thread, this version of 1981 been a cult for us sometime in the early 90's. Jack Nicholson and Jessica Lange were a dream team for this film.
I know, as a whole there is a negative attitude toward remakes, anyway, I've had a strong belief that this movie can make the range #80-100 of the countdown.
__________________ "Population don't imitate art, population imitate bad television." W.A.
"You can't depend on your eyes when your imagination is out of focus." M.T.
I would be interested to hear people's thought about why Se7en doesn't qualify as neo noir.
Just for reference, here is something Holden just wrote about classic noir in the thread for the other countdown:
"Noir is more correctly a tone and a style than a genre. While many Noirs do have similar elements and plots, what it is really all about is the darkness of the human soul, the helplessness of good when confronted by evil, a cynical refraction of the American Dream."
I think Se7en pretty much nails all of that precisely, while also containing the more surface elements of the world-worn detectives, the shadows, the lighting and the city as labyrinth or hell, as mentioned earlier. So not only does it qualify thematically, but also stylistically and when looking at the parts that make up a sum.
There are many films on this countdown for which i can see arguments either way, but with Se7en, I am having trouble parsing the "not noir" side of the argument.
As a disclaimer, I understand that there is a distinction between classic and neo, in that many consider the classic cycle to be more psychological, with neo being more sociologically driven. Regardless, I think Se7en again qualifies in both spheres here, especially in an analysis of John Doe and more specifically his motivations and reasoning for his sociopathy and personality disorders. Doe's ravings are more of an indictment of the results of the American Dream more so than a direct skewing or refraction of it. What better describes the essence of the neo-noir movement, as that of a darker, more post-modern level of hell (like Dante?) or the further erosion/poisoning of this dream?
Four Fincher films and I didn't vote for any, even though three of them were considered, Se7en most of all. I knew it would be top ten.
The final two films on my list which did not make the countdown are Antonioni’s Blow-Up, which was certainly inspirational to two other films on the countdown, The Conversation and Blow Out. Maybe it wasn’t labeled neo-noir in the right places, so didn’t get the votes, but it has more than enough noir elements to qualify. And as a bonus, you get really cool footage of The Yardbirds with Jimmy Page and Jeff Beck. I had it at #19.
My highest rated film not to make it is Jacques Audiard’s Read My Lips (Sur mes lèvres), which I had all the way at #6, despite knowing it had no chance. But who cares. It’d be silly to make a list of films you already know for sure will make the countdown. Audiard is best known for films like A Prophet, Rust and Bone, and his first English-language film The Sisters Brothers, my favorite western of the century.
Carla, who is deaf without the use of her hearing aids, is a sheltered, plain-looking secretary, treated with a certain level of contempt by her co-workers, and when she’s allowed to hire an assistant to help with the workload, she’s hoping for a male, around twenty-five years old. In comes Paul, a crook on parole after serving several years in prison. But he’s a man, and she takes him on, despite his lack of relevant skills. When one of her co-workers pulls a big project out from under her at the last minute so he can get the commission, she asks Paul to steal the file back.
He has his own problems, including owing money to a big mobster, but it’s okay, he can work at the guy's bar until he pays off his debt. Only he has bigger plans, i.e. revenge, and they include making use of Carla’s special talent: her ability to read lips.
I saw this when it came to the theaters back in 2001 and have loved it since, a rather gritty story of these two people who don’t quite fit in, but for different reasons, and while it’s not as polished as Audiard’s later films, it’s all the better for it. I have no regrets having wasted twenty points on this little film.
My List: 1. Top 5 2. Top 5 3. Miller's Crossing (#15) 4. Memories of Murder (#25) 5. True Romance (#60) 6. Read My Lips (DNP) 7. Drive (#14) 8. Blood Simple (#9) 9. Nightcrawler (#21) 10. Top 5 11. The Friends of Eddie Coyle (#100) 12. Branded to Kill (#71) 13. The Man Who Wasn't There (#27) 14. Blast of Silence (#48) 15. Le Samouraï (#7) 16. Sin City (#26) 17. Memento (#8) 18. Following (#84) 19. Blow-Up (DNP) 20. Jackie Brown (#18) 21. Mother (#67) 22. Purple Noon (#94) 23. Cop Land (DNP) 24. Against All Odds (DNP) 25. The Man from London (DNP)
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I may go back to hating you. It was more fun.
I would be interested to hear people's thought about why Se7en doesn't qualify as neo noir.
Just for reference, here is something Holden just wrote about classic noir in the thread for the other countdown:
"Noir is more correctly a tone and a style than a genre. While many Noirs do have similar elements and plots, what it is really all about is the darkness of the human soul, the helplessness of good when confronted by evil, a cynical refraction of the American Dream."
I think Se7en pretty much nails all of that precisely, while also containing the more surface elements of the world-worn detectives, the shadows, the lighting and the city as labyrinth or hell, as mentioned earlier. So not only does it qualify thematically, but also stylistically and when looking at the parts that make up a sum.
There are many films on this countdown for which i can see arguments either way, but with Se7en, I am having trouble parsing the "not noir" side of the argument.
As a disclaimer, I understand that there is a distinction between classic and neo, in that many consider the classic cycle to be more psychological, with neo being more sociologically driven. Regardless, I think Se7en again qualifies in both spheres here, especially in an analysis of John Doe and more specifically his motivations and reasoning for his sociopathy and personality disorders. Doe's ravings are more of an indictment of the results of the American Dream more so than a direct skewing or refraction of it. What better describes the essence of the neo-noir movement, as that of a darker, more post-modern level of hell (like Dante?) or the further erosion/poisoning of this dream?
Interested to hear people's thoughts...
My gut feeling is it has to do with its horror elements and its use of the grotesque. Because I think it pretty much qualifies in any way, and more so than a lot of other ones that are here.
I don't have a good answer for why I didn't include Se7en on my ballot other than I haven't watched it since... the late 90s? I think I also had an internal pushback against putting movies from the 90s on my ballot (outside of the Coens, which I've rewatched a good amount in the time since) because of a distrust of my teenage tastes of movies coming out at that time - as opposed to the 70s neo-noirs which just got mentally wiped from my brain.
Though thinking about it now, Se7en should have been a legit contender. Maybe it still wouldn't have made my ballot, but it should have been a legit contender.
I remember this. Rachel Ward's star was on the ascendant then and Jason Patric was someone, who made me young heart flutter. Bruce Dern was Bruce Dern. My favorite Bruce Dern movie is Nebraska though.
"Seven is well-made in its details, and uncompromising in the way it presents the disturbing details of the crimes. It is certainly not for the young or the sensitive. Good as it is, it misses greatness by not quite finding the right way to end. All of the pieces are in place, all of the characters are in position, and then - I think the way the story ends is too easy. Satisfying, perhaps. But not worthy of what has gone before." (read full review here)
Jan Leow, from J's, said:
"Fincher has truly did an outstanding job in bringing across the message and theme of Se7en through the usage of several Film Noir stylistic elements; showing us a meditation on the frightening pervasiveness of evil. A bleak vision of the world we live in." (read full review here)
"Se7en is it's director's work. Sure, the performances are solid and the screenplay by Andrew Kevin Walker is terrific, but you really have to give Fincher the credit. He has created a nameless city plagued by crime and darkness that is downright scary and terryifying. The shaky camera movements during the scene Mills chases the killer is almost like you're in the movie running with him. Every scene in this film is notable, but the way Fincher films the ending is remarkable and brilliant. It is tense and horrorfying and extremely well-directed. The ending is far and away my favourite moment of this film." (read full review here)
I would be interested to hear people's thought about why Se7en doesn't qualify as neo noir.
Just for reference, here is something Holden just wrote about classic noir in the thread for the other countdown:
"Noir is more correctly a tone and a style than a genre. While many Noirs do have similar elements and plots, what it is really all about is the darkness of the human soul, the helplessness of good when confronted by evil, a cynical refraction of the American Dream."
I think Se7en pretty much nails all of that precisely, while also containing the more surface elements of the world-worn detectives, the shadows, the lighting and the city as labyrinth or hell, as mentioned earlier. So not only does it qualify thematically, but also stylistically and when looking at the parts that make up a sum.
There are many films on this countdown for which i can see arguments either way, but with Se7en, I am having trouble parsing the "not noir" side of the argument.
As a disclaimer, I understand that there is a distinction between classic and neo, in that many consider the classic cycle to be more psychological, with neo being more sociologically driven. Regardless, I think Se7en again qualifies in both spheres here, especially in an analysis of John Doe and more specifically his motivations and reasoning for his sociopathy and personality disorders. Doe's ravings are more of an indictment of the results of the American Dream more so than a direct skewing or refraction of it. What better describes the essence of the neo-noir movement, as that of a darker, more post-modern level of hell (like Dante?) or the further erosion/poisoning of this dream?
Interested to hear people's thoughts...
I really don't feel like I have a proper justification for not voting for it. Like many others that I skipped as well, I guess I can see the noir in it, but there were just certain things that I was looking for on the films I voted for that I just didn't see in it. Not even sure if I can describe what, but that's how I decided to go that way.
Looking over my ballot for another reveal, I'm pretty sure my #25 is making the list. A lot of the next unrevealed on my lists probably won't make it, but some of the ones that I'm pretty sure won't make it, aren't necessarily guaranteed. So, I'll go with one that would be surprising to show up now and feels appropriate:
My #18. Naked Lunch (1991)
This is probably the most gratuitous, "retro-period piece whose recapturing of some of the era is causing me to go with the noir classification, but seems super-questionable at my inclusion (and I'd be more likely to include it on a horror list, which it is also questionable for)."
Adaptations of an author's life for the writing of a book never work - except for the rare occasion where they do. I noticed from the Horrorcrammers thread that a lot of the other people in there put it mid or lower tiered Cronenberg, but I personally love it. For reasons I can't explain. It's just... Kafka-esque (which could be an issue for a movie about William Burroughs for some, but I'll take it like it is).
01. (#09) Blood Simple (1984)
02.
03. (#55) Lost Highway (1997)
04. (#54) Pale Flower (1964)
05. (#15) Miller's Crossing (1990)
06. (#13) Blue Velvet (1986)
07. (#71) Branded to Kill (1967)
08. (#07) Le Samouraï (1967)
09. (#11) Fargo (1996)
10.
11. (#27) The Man Who Wasn't There (2001)
12.
13. (#72) Point Blank (1967)
14.
15. (#23) Le Cercle Rouge (1970)
16. (#10) Mulholland Drive (2001)
17.
18. (###) Naked Lunch (1991)
19. (#41) Inherent Vice (2014)
20.
21.
22.
23. (#76) Under the Silver Lake (2018)
24. (###) Down by Law (1986)
25.
Just like I did with Mulholland Drive, years ago I recorded a special episode of my podcast where I analyzed one scene from Seven, specifically the scene when John Doe surrenders to the cops. Feel free to check it out!
My gut feeling is it has to do with its horror elements and its use of the grotesque. Because I think it pretty much qualifies in any way, and more so than a lot of other ones that are here.
In my attempt to steel man the argument in my mind, I was thinking that perhaps the heavy focus on procedural crime solving might be a factor, as well.
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