If you oppose the war on Iraq, make your voice heard...

I'm afraid I don't see the point. We haven't sold Saddam nuclear warheads in ANY claim I've heard, so it would rather stand to reason that they aren't included in the chart. Even those on the far left are not making that claim, as to do so would be rather speculative, I believe.

And, frankly, why WOULD it mention Iran? The chart is about Saddam. Why would you expect numbers concerning a different country?

Not that, as Steve already said, it changes things one whit if we sold these things to Iraq, but the fact of the matter is that, for the most part, we really didn't, and what we did sell him appears to have been quite available elsewhere anyway. We weren't swapping armed nuclear warheads for cash, in other words. The chart is aiming to shoot down a ridiculous objection to war, and it basically does so. I don't see how any of your criticisms are applicable towards disputing that.

Yoda is quoted:
Not that, as Steve already said, it changes things one whit if we sold these things to Iraq, but the fact of the matter is that, for the most part, we really didn't, and what we did sell him appears to have been quite available elsewhere anyway.

Werd. Look to Uncle Ivan for the real deal...

Are there figures for the Ollie North/Iran/Contra deal? The fact that the US sold weapons to both sides of the war and double crossed both Iran & Iraq should tell you something.

1. Our foreign policy is full of double deals and double crosses so why do you swallow everything you're hearing on tv right now? Later on the b.s. will come out, but right now you pro-war types refuse to believe anything weird is going on at all.

2. What we did sell matters because we had full knowledge that Saddam was using gas against the Iranians and we didn't care. It's only important now that we want to attack Iraq. Again more b.s.

So if the gov't is all b.s. from election time to the presidency why aren't you asking questions? Even you O'Reilly followers should know the gov't is full of it. The no spin zone, that means there's lots of spin and they sort it out for you right? Lots of spin. That's what I'm saying. If you investigate for yourself you'll see this war is b.s. and you won't be all, Yay War! Even if you only investigate a little it'll be enough to confuse you into not being sure of the war.

I'll take your urge to investigage a bit more seriously when you show me that you can practice what you preach. So far you've ignored the bulk of facts thrown your way, labeling them as wrong simply because they disagree with your conclusion. And you have the gall to tell me and others to start investigating? Sorry, I've seen your idea of "investigation" and it involves nothing more than rabidly searching for things that agree with your conclusions, and dismissing those that don't.

Frankly, I don't know why I even bother anymore. You're horribly close-minded; you've basically admited it, too. What's worse, you can't even really demonstrate why. Now THAT is BS. Tell me why I should argue with someone who isn't even open to the possibility that they could be wrong? One reason is all I ask. C'mon, lay it on me.


You're once again demonstrating that you just don't understand. Let's pretend for a second that you're right, and that we only care for self-interest: so? Singers, filmmakers, businessmen...most of them act out of self-interest, too. But that doesn't mean their actions and innovations and products aren't beneficial to us. If Michael Dell started giving bulls**t reasons for why he built computers, would his company's actions suddenly become evil? No. His reasons might be BS, but that's got absolutely nothing to do with the actions themselves. That's what you don't seem to grasp.

Stop looking at the motivation and focus on the results. They're what matter most. The fact that you keep harping on this shows that your real agenda is trying to find holes in Bush's policy...not holes in the war action itself. This is nothing more or less than another (poor) attempt to find fault with Dubya.

I've also no idea who here is allegedly swallowing everything they hear on TV right now, though it's worse to swallow everything you hear on the Internet...which seems to be your policy, given your daily posting of some inane conspiracy or abused quotation.

I'll be glad when the last of your kind dies out. Darwin do your work.

Also, where is Django? This is his thread! He is usually the first to make some whiny liberal comment. Did he finally decide to leave or is he cutting down on his liberalism to score points, or what?

__________________
"I'm mad as hell, and I'm not going to take it anymore!" - Howard Beale

That's right. The chart shows conventional weapons, which is exactly why it doesn't mean much. The things the americans are looking for in Iraq now, unconventional weapons, are the kind of weapons that USA shouldn't have helped arming Saddam with.

I apologize, I was being unclear there. What I meant was that I was looking for a chart showing the numbers on transfers between USA and Iran during the Iran/Iraq war. Unfortunately, the only chart they had on Iran was showing transfers being done 1993-2002 and therefore irrelevant. I wanted to see if the weapons that USA sold to Iran were accounted for in that chart. If they weren't, well, then we know that USA isn't showing us all the numbers, since the Iran-Contras scandal proved that USA did in fact sell weapons to Iran. And if they didn't tell the truth about those weapons, then why should we believe the numbers they are giving us on the transfers with Iraq? Now, there wasn't a chart on Iran showing this, so we'll never know about the real validity of the chart.

"What we did sell him appears to have been quite available elsewhere anyway". That's a terrific argument for selling weapons to a completely mad stalinist. And "for the most part, we really didn't"? Jeez.. Did you or didn't you? And no one was selling nuclear warheads to Iraq. They purchased technology on how to develop it though, and they claim themselves in this documentary that they got it from countries like Germany and USA. Rumsfeld can of course not "recall" anything like that being done "to his knowledge".

You are using the chart to give scientific substance to your arguments. If people don't belive you, show them some figures from the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute and they swallow it all. Only, the chart was a simplified and misleading version of the real chart. If I showed you a chart of how many countries in the world that USA has invaded the last half decade compared to Iraq, what would that prove? Pretty rediculous, don't you think? I could make a chart here and now showing that USA is worse than The Third Reich, North Korea and Djingis Khan put together and no one of you could dismiss one single figure in it as incorrect. But what would that prove? Absolutely nothing.

A chart like this have to be read with caution and the more sources that have been used to get the chart together, the more unreliable it is. Plus, the reliability of the sources themselves aren't always very high, exactly as the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute themselves pointed out on their site. The chart can give you an indication about things, but there are always other things that you have to bear in mind when reading the chart.

__________________
The novelist does not long to see the lion eat grass. He realizes that one and the same God created the wolf and the lamb, then smiled, "seeing that his work was good".

--------

They had temporarily escaped the factories, the warehouses, the slaughterhouses, the car washes - they'd be back in captivity the next day but now they were out - they were wild with freedom. They weren't thinking about the slavery of poverty. Or the slavery of welfare and food stamps. The rest of us would be all right until the poor learned how to make atom bombs in their basements.

Uday done gone.

__________________
www.esotericrabbit.com

Posted by Steve:
The point you're making is perfectly valid, but don't you think the fact that Saddam Hussein is an oppressive military dictator is worth recognizing? I support the removal of any fascist (or theocratic, for that matter) leader on principle. Saddam Hussein's regime is the enemy, as is the al Qaeda network, Pakistan, Israel, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Indonesia, Iran, Paraguay, Turkey, and all the others. Freedom, to me, is worth fighting for, regardless of the country. We're all human beings, we all deserve to be free. If the US were a fascist state, I'd support regime change here, too.

The fact that Iraq has weapons of mass destruction is a peripheral issue. Dangerous, yes, but even more dangerous in the hands of a fascist.

Very well put Steve.
Perhaps if I hadn't been so blinded by the about face that many of our allies did before the war, maybe I would have understood you better. And now that we have effectively won, they allies who backed out on us are supporting us.

And now a word for our allies overseas:
Thanks guys, nice to know that we had French, German and Russian troops who died alongside of us American, Brit and Aussie guys. In fact, it was that last push by the French retreatists that helped us overcome the Republican guard in Tikrit...and we really loved the way the Germans cheered us on while the Russians sold ice cold vodka to the crowd in those little dispensers...

Anyhow,
while many of you can't seem to evaluate and appreciate the damage that conventional weapons can do just as well, just ask yourself if a gaping wound from a 5.56 mm AK-47 round is as bad as a WOMD, and just remember what Joseph Stalin said:

"One death is a tragedy, a million is a statistic." And Saddam already made that statistic with the estimated deaths of over a million Iranian people during the war of the 80's, with a combo of both chemical AND conventional weapons. Just remember that.

And I agree with Yoda, about people always accusing the U.S. of self interest: SO.....WHAT?!? EVERY country indulges in self-interest, maybe it's America's turn for once.
You think France was any better? THEY had oil deals with Iraq for their own self interest too, as well as Russia's motivation for oposition to war being the 8 billion Iraq owed them.

Do you think for a minute Russia would have
hesitated if there was no debt owed them? Ask yourself if they cared about the people in Afghanistan???

Pidd,

You seem to not be able to get past facts and figures, and you don't seem to be able to comprehend that the U.S. is not the only country who sold weapons to the Middle East. It seems that America is always accused of laying out the tarmac for the others to barter on.

Well, I see you are from Sweden, huh?

Based on that, and based on your claim of "selling things to mad dictators", are you aware that during WW2, one of your neighbors, Norway, had hard water facilities with which they assisted Germany in trying to develop the bomb? Of their own free will I might add?

Shame shame, a neutral country helping out a man like Hitler, what in return for all that little old Nazi gold and confiscated artwork you guys are still hiding in Scandinavia???

Sure you can't sell water, but the fact is is that I feel that many times, many other countries have helped other nuts out from time to time, and you seem to think that it was OK just because they helped out 'a little.'

That's as valid as saying that an alcoholic with a known problem is no longer an alcoholic because they only drink 'a tiny amount.' Not putting you down or anything, but you have to wake up and realize that sometimes we all wash our hands in the same sink no matter how much (or how little) water we use...

Unlike you and a lot of others on this site I seem to be one of the few who realize that USA and countries like France and Germany are responsible of arming Saddam. Not one or the other. If you read my previous posts on the topic you'll see more details on this. No need for me to repeat myself more than necessary.

That's right, I am.

First of all. Scandinavia is not a country. The area is called Scandinavia because of the scandic mountains (don't know if that is correct english name). Scandinavia consists of Norway, Sweden and Denmark. Sweden is a neutral country but Norway and Denmark are members of Nato and Denmark is presently at war with Iraq together with USA and its allies. Scandinavia is not at war.

Norway became occupied by the germans after brave defending of their country. The resistance in Norway was also very brave and did great things all through the war. One thing they did was to blow up the factory that produced this water used for the making of a-bombs. This factory was built by the germans, using norwegian prisoners from a norwegian concentration camp. I would like to see you stand on Karl Johan in Oslo on the 17th of May, the day of norwegian independence from the germans, and tell the norwegians passing by that they helped out the nazis "of their own free will". These are my brothers you are talking about. Actually, I think you should thank your lucky star we don't have any norwegians (to my knowledge) on this site.

And I've heard you accuse scandinavians before of "hiding nazi gold and art". Let's see your cards! Give me some evidence. Where are these treasures? The official Sweden is holding nazi gold? Well, I'm sure the Minister of Finance would like to know where the state is keeping it. As would the jews and socialists who fled from Denmark and Norway to Sweden during the war because I suppose it would belong to them.

Sweden was never occupied by Germany so I can't understand how the art and gold stolen by the nazis would have gotten here.

Really? You must have misunderstood me.

That's right. Even if your hands are just a little dirty, they're still dirty. And bloody. And we all share the same water that they are being washed in.

Posted by Piddzilla:
These are my brothers you are talking about. Actually, I think you should thank your lucky star we don't have any norwegians (to my knowledge) on this site.

You mean they might attack me?

Well I should tell you that I already received the purple heart for action in Oslo when I was pelted with frozen containers of Haagen Daas. Really scary moment I tell you. Thank God my Baskin Robbins flavor-proof vest protected me from all 31 flavors, as well as my Breyers all natural Vanilla semi automatic coming in handy. I was also involved in the assault at Turkey Hill as well, and the commander of all the conventional forces at the time was Brig. Gen Dolly Madison.

(You won't get this unless you're American, but for those of you who do, enjoy LOL)

Well you know what, Pidd, you're talking about MY countrymen and brothers too every time you make America out to be murderers. We may not all be white in America, but we are brothers under the skin, and 9/11 proved that we all bleed the same. And we are NOT murderers. I'm sick of hearing it.

As to the confiscated treasures and the Nazi gold,
you tell ME: how many times have Jewish and socialist peoples as well as general WW2 victims, clamored that some of your neighbors are hiding what belongs to them? Can they all be wrong?

You know you've heard it before.

I want to make it perfectly clear that I didn't say you guys have the stuff, but you DO have brothers in other countries who just MIGHT know...you accuse America's leaders of lying to their people and the world, and I want to remind you that EVERY leader hides something, and based on this, you should ask yourself what YOUR leaders in YOUR part of the world are hiding from YOUR people.

I'll be perfectly honest that beyond my speculation, and the accusations of Jews and socialists, as you put it, I have no cards as proof, and neither do you, but just because an accusation hasn't been proved, it dosen't mean it isn't true. This is my lesson to you-question your OWN leaders, you may be suprised and you may not like what you find. Fair enough???

Brings me to my next point:

That's right. Even if your hands are just a little dirty, they're still dirty. And bloody. And we all share the same water that they are being washed in.

BINGO! That's why we keep asking you to stop placing sole blame on America. So based on that, here's YOUR bar of soap, so get washing...

And yeah, we may have armed some conventional weapons to Saddam as you say, but the last time I looked, an AK-47 is distinctly Russian in design unless it was bought out by Colt manufacturers...no need for you to repeat yourself indeed because it holds as much water as a block of Swiss cheese (oops, sorry.)

So please do us a favor here at the forums:

Stop placing sole blame on America, question your OWN leaders about their OWN dirty little secrets, and learn to accept your part in the the scheme of things.

And finally, learn that if you constantly criticize America, like you have done very steadily here, you're going to get it back. I wouldn't expect you to not defend your country, so don't expect me not to defend mine.

DD,

Listen: Switzerland - Swiss. Sweden - Swedish. Ok? Got it? Do your homework.

When did I call you murderers?

I won't even bother to comment on the rest...

What facts? You refuse to debate me. I think that chart was the first thing you've done that wasn't propoganda you heard somewhere. I see you've noticed my new style. I say something, quote a verifiable source, then give the link for anyone who wants to verify it or read more. Back in the old days you pretty much insinuated I was making everything up so now I post links. It's not rabid research, I do it that way on purpose.

You should argue with me because you might learn something. Sorry, I didn't mean for it to sound that way. I'm closed minded because you can't prove pigs fly when pigs don't fly. Bush sucks and that's that. I said tell me 2 good things Bush has done and you won't. I admit he did 1 good thing, but it was before the war and I don't remember what it was. Maybe something to do with schools? I remember I agreed with him once.

And on a side note
My kind is the reason we survive as a species you nasty australopithecus robustus you. I bet you wear real fur.

Give me one example of said propoganda.


You're leaving things out -- I said that I'm not going to answer your questions when you ignore mine. I said that argument is a two-way street. It runs both ways, or not at all. I gave YOU the option to debate by not just asking, but answering, too. You decided not to. It's not that I won't play. It's that I won't play under your lopsided rules.

Re: close-mindedness, I'll leave you with this, as it sums up my primary gripe with your ideology:

"It is not bigotry to be certain we are right; but it is bigotry to be unable to imagine how we might possibly have gone wrong."
-- GK Chesterton

Long story short: you don't even seem willing to concede that you might be wrong. You don't consider it as a possibility. When someone shows up that says you're wrong, you dismiss it right away, even if you have no valid reason to. That's not just saying "I know pigs, and pigs don't fly" that's saying "I have no idea what pigs are, but they can't fly, and at no point will anything by that name ever be able to fly."

Pidd,

if you look at it, you are silently accusing America of murdering, because we armed Iraq and Saddam was an aggressor, and we knew about it. As well as the silent opinion that America murdered innocent civilians for oil. You KNOW you guys are all thinking that way....just come out and admit it.

I may be full of **** sometimes, as well as hitting the money other times, but at least I'm REAL and HONEST about my feelings. I don't hide in a closet. I'd rather be a fool sometimes and see things clearer in the end when true colors start to emerge, as well as the truth.

I suggest that the rest of the non-American people here do the same. It won't hurt you guys to be honest for once. Tell us you hate us, we're used to it. Everyone hates us, it's no big deal.

I won't even bother to comment on the rest...

Truth can kill you or set you free. For me more times than not, it has set me free. Don't know about others though as I can't speak for everyone else.

I said earlier I wouldn't comment any more on this, but now I truly will NOT anymore-the non American people at this website, as well as some American, have, as Yoda said, been trying to get us to play this game by THEIR lopsided rules, insisting that a war against terror be fought with flowers instead of bullets.

I'm tired of this, I'm too old for it, and tired of constantly reinforcing things that people refuse to hear. I suppose you'll all start picking on Yoda now because I dropped out of the thread.

He's presented more proof than any of us EVER could to show that America was a small contributor the the Mideast problems, but still you call HIM a liar too.

I don't think the problem lies with me and
Yoda anymore, nor did it ever in the first place.

The problem is with YOU guys. Bye on this thread...

I know what a pig is, it's a pig.

Do you think this baby pig will grow up and fly over to my house?
If you can't prove this pig can fly because it can't fly that's not my fault. Maybe it'll be on an airplane one day and wiggle out of the cargo bay and land in my arms but it can't fly. Aww, look at the baby pig!

To expand on what I said earlier: Your liberal days are numbered. After a while, most everyone will wise up, and those who don't will simply die out.

First, I know this is addressed to Pidd, but I've gotta jump in here.

Ok, the US is guilty of cold-blooded murder. No one, and I mean no one, can justify the bombing of Cambodia. Clinton's filthy rocketing of a Sudanese pharmaceutical factory in 1998 is indefensible, especially since it happened the same week Monica Lewinsky went to testify. The Chilean and Iranian coups supported by the US caused many innocent deaths. I defy anyone on this board to offer evidence to the contrary.

I don't think Pidd has ever attacked Americans like you and I. He's attacking those in power, those responsible for these past atrocities. Nor has he defended the Islamic terrorists. The claims that America is responsible for war crimes can be backed up by cold hard fact. No one has said anything to the effect that all Americans are evil murderers - but Henry Kissinger sure is, and Ronald Reagan's record ain't so clean, either.

It's patriotic to criticize those in power. That's the great thing about democracy.

__________________
**** the Lakers!

Why Beale? Imagine the world is full of war mongers and nothing else. Everyone will war with each other til the world is destroyed. Not a happy future.

Now imagine the world is full of peacniks and nothing else. Lots of sex, happiness and baby pigs. Until we get overpopulated and move to Mars.

Which would you rather have?

Bush says we want peace so let's kill everyone that doesn't agree. Then someone said "Hey, as long as we're going to kill them let's plunder them too!" Now the first part, killing all the bad guys I might agree with, maybe. If we could only kill them and not civillians. There's no way to do that. (Also if we wern't involved in the elections afterwards other than to make sure they're fair)

The second part, we might as well plunder I do not agree with at all. That's how it started in Afghanistan. Get the terrorist then someone said hey we might as well build a pipeline and get rich of defence contracts etc.. Then someone said let's attack some other countries and plunder them too! Yeah, let's get Iraq they have oil, and plunder became the main motivation.