Who will take on Obama in 2012?

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Who's definition? The Churches? Because, if so, then I don't think there's much of a problem, as marriage was around long, long before the Church itself. Let alone when it started to intrude and regulate people's relations. Now, if homosexuals want to get married in a church, that's the Churches business and if they don't want to allow it, that's up to them IMO. Is it also not true that marriage is both a civil right and a legal contract? Neither of which are reliant on the consent or permission of any religion.
My Father and Mother couldn't be married in a Church..Why? lol! Because my Father is a Catholic and my Mother is Church of England (That cracks me up! )

4 brothers are Catholics and a sister who is Church of England. I'm Catholic. My relatives on my Father's side and very religious...2 were Priests..they're dead now.



A few more questions: Should someone who had a sex change operation be allowed to marry someone of the opposite sex? Should homosexuals not be allowed any other heterosexual rights? Is allowing a religion the power to legally define marriage the same as passing a law respecting an establishment of religion? Should heterosexuals be allowed to marry for any reason other than producing children? Is oral sex a sin? If a man's penis touches his wife's anus accidentally or intentionally at any point during sex, then does that nullify their marriage? Are "honor rapes" and "honor killings" a legitimate exercise of freedom of religious expression? Would same-sex marriage impede heterosexuals from marrying? How far does protecting "sanctity of marriage" go?
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If a man's penis touches his wife's anus accidentally or intentionally at any point during sex, then does that nullify their marriage
The Greeks use do that if the girl was a virgin No ****!



Why shouldn't homosexuals be able to marry, if as you say homosexuality isn't a criminal act?

Is it for religious reasons? Which religion?

For me, it is not for religious reasons, but to answer the substance of your question, pick your religion. Every major world religion, from Christianity, to Islam, to Judaism, to Buddhism, to Mormonism and Bahai, is disapproving of homosexuality. This is one of the major impediments to the recognition of homosexual marriage. Any devout follower of any major world religious tradition cannot in good conscience support the moral permissibility of homosexuality. If someone does not happen to believe that these religious traditions came from God, and reflected His wishes and His Word, I respect that, and that is a legitimate point of view, but if someone does, I cannot see how any reasonable reading of any of these religious texts can legitimately support homosexuality as a morally permissive lifestyle. They can't. They don't. Those who support homosexual marriage are grasping at straws trying to distort the religious text in order to find support where it simply does not exist, in my view.

A few more questions...:Should homosexuals not be allowed any other heterosexual rights?
I personally believe that homosexuals who seek to form unions should be allowed to do so, and that those unions should be legally recognized in order to ensure fairness and equal treatment under the law. I personally would strongly support hospital visitation the rights, the ability of homosexual domestic partners to be on each other's health insurance plans, and the right of inheritance and survivorship benefits. I would not be in favor of redefining marriage to include homosexuals, but would support some form of civil union.


Is allowing a religion the power to legally define marriage the same as passing a law respecting an establishment of religion?

Marriage has had a definition for thousands of years. This definition has been of a man and a woman. The idea of redefining marriage to include homosexuals is a relatively new idea. It is not something that has been recognized by any major industrialized nation until extremely recently. The first nation was the Netherlands, which happened in 2001. It is simply disingenuous to pretend that marriage has, for any society even remotely analogous to our own, ever had any other definition. It is not a matter of allowing religion to define marriage. Marriage has a historical definition, and that definition, in most, if not all, major world powers has been exclusively heterosexual in nature

Are "honor rapes" and "honor killings" a legitimate exercise of freedom of religious expression?

No. Honor rapes and honor killings are not a legitimate exercise of freedom of religious expression. Firstly, they pose direct bodily harm to others, including those who may not be members of the religion. Killing someone deprives them of their life. This is in no way analogous to being against gay marriage. There are a whole host of non-religious reasons to be opposed to gay marriage, and failing to grant a group of people a previously unrecognized privilege is very different from depriving someone of their life, which always has been recognized in our nation as a right.
I hope this post helps to answer some of your question, and I look forward to your reply.



Deadite: you say it's "none of your business" if two consenting adults want to get married. But there are problems with this. The first is that this argument is about whether or not this is true; no purpose is served by merely asserting your conclusion. The argument that gay couples should be allowed to marry because it's none of your business if they marry is a clearly circular one.

The second is that, if the government is going to be involved in the issue of marriage at all, then it's every citizen's business. You are free to call their stance bigoted, foolish, inconsistent, whatever. Then we have the cultural debate. But you can't dismiss it out of hand, as if the mere raising of the issue is somehow out of bounds. Everything the government licenses and regulates is all of our business, collectively.

The third is that you keep saying that "two" adults should not be stopped from getting married. Why only two? It seems an entirely arbitrary number. The principles you've offered in support of gay marriage logically apply just as much to polygamy. Now, I rather expect that you probably do support polygamy, but given that far fewer people support polygamy than support gay marriage, this is a hugely important implication.

The fourth problem is a very large one. You say it's "none of [our] business" if two consenting adults want to get married. And I know why you make this argument: it's a powerful one. It's particularly powerful in American politics, where the default position is to let people do what they will and only intervene when it can clearly be shown to harm others. That's a good general principle, and it's embedded deep in our culture's DNA. It's a potent framing of the position.

However, there's a problem with this argument: it's completely false. And I don't mean it's false in a vague "we all have an interest in preserving cherished institutions" way (though that's not nothing). I mean it's literally false. The makeup of our current anti-discrimination laws puts the lie to it; a Christian wedding photographer who refused to photograph a gay wedding was sued for discrimination (and lost!). And this in a state where gay marriage isn't even legal, mind you. The legal reality here simply does not allow for the "none of your business" argument.

Having made those arguments, I'd like to pose a few questions, if I might:

1) How do you distinguish between gay marriage and civil unions? I think it's pretty clear that the state, not being religiously-oriented, must agree to recognize some form of civil unions. Is this what you mean by "marriage"? If not, aren't you essentially advocating that the government grant the rights that most people support (even many of those against gay marriage), but that they officially use the word "marriage" to describe it? If so, why? Should the government be in the habit of defining words for us, as opposed to merely protecting rights? If there is little to no legal difference, then the issue is clearly one of social acceptance, which you certainly can't force through judicial or legislative fiat.

2) Please define the word "bigot."

3) If your position is that we have no right to prevent anyone from getting married, why doesn't that extend to the entire practice of marriage licensing? If they have no business restricting such things, what business do they have licensing them at all? Everything else the government licenses, it does for the express purpose of allowing some people to do something, but not others. Instances in which anyone can do something without restriction don't need to be licensed at all.
I have more, actually, but this post is enough to nudge the conversation in a useful direction, I think.



I think the main issue here is semantics. For thousands of years societies all over the world called marriage a union of man and woman.
Gays should not be denied domestic partnerships or any other legal entitlements which a marriage provides but their union should not be called marriage. It can be called anything else ,but we should not have to redefine the meaning of language to accomodate a necessary social ammendment.



will.15's Avatar
Semper Fooey
Deadite: you say it's "none of your business" if two consenting adults want to get married. But there are problems with this. The first is that this argument is about whether or not this is true; no purpose is served by merely asserting your conclusion. The argument that gay couples should be allowed to marry because it's none of your business if they marry is a clearly circular one.

The second is that, if the government is going to be involved in the issue of marriage at all, then it's every citizen's business. You are free to call their stance bigoted, foolish, inconsistent, whatever. Then we have the cultural debate. But you can't dismiss it out of hand, as if the mere raising of the issue is somehow out of bounds. Everything the government licenses and regulates is all of our business, collectively.

The third is that you keep saying that "two" adults should not be stopped from getting married. Why only two? It seems an entirely arbitrary number. The principles you've offered in support of gay marriage logically apply just as much to polygamy. Now, I rather expect that you probably do support polygamy, but given that far fewer people support polygamy than support gay marriage, this is a hugely important implication.

The fourth problem is a very large one. You say it's "none of [our] business" if two consenting adults want to get married. And I know why you make this argument: it's a powerful one. It's particularly powerful in American politics, where the default position is to let people do what they will and only intervene when it can clearly be shown to harm others. That's a good general principle, and it's embedded deep in our culture's DNA. It's a potent framing of the position.

However, there's a problem with this argument: it's completely false. And I don't mean it's false in a vague "we all have an interest in preserving cherished institutions" way (though that's not nothing). I mean it's literally false. The makeup of our current anti-discrimination laws puts the lie to it; a Christian wedding photographer who refused to photograph a gay wedding was sued for discrimination (and lost!). And this in a state where gay marriage isn't even legal, mind you. The legal reality here simply does not allow for the "none of your business" argument.

Having made those arguments, I'd like to pose a few questions, if I might:
1) How do you distinguish between gay marriage and civil unions? I think it's pretty clear that the state, not being religiously-oriented, must agree to recognize some form of civil unions. Is this what you mean by "marriage"? If not, aren't you essentially advocating that the government grant the rights that most people support (even many of those against gay marriage), but that they officially use the word "marriage" to describe it? If so, why? Should the government be in the habit of defining words for us, as opposed to merely protecting rights? If there is little to no legal difference, then the issue is clearly one of social acceptance, which you certainly can't force through judicial or legislative fiat.

2) Please define the word "bigot."

3) If your position is that we have no right to prevent anyone from getting married, why doesn't that extend to the entire practice of marriage licensing? If they have no business restricting such things, what business do they have licensing them at all? Everything else the government licenses, it does for the express purpose of allowing some people to do something, but not others. Instances in which anyone can do something without restriction don't need to be licensed at all.
I have more, actually, but this post is enough to nudge the conversation in a useful direction, I think.
While I don't think someone opposed to gay marriage is necessarily a bigot., certainly not AKA23, the bigots are out there and a major presidential contender, Rick Santorum, is one of them. He has actually said it should be legal for government to outlaw homosexual acts. He is completely intolerant of gays and that is a bigot. Most of the presidential candidates said they wanted to bring back Don't Ask, Don't Tell even though the new policy has been working fine. Romney flip flopped on that also. And a large number of Republicans are even opposed to civil unions, all kinds. And Mitt Romney, as is usual with him, is rather vague on exactly where he stands, saying he supports some civil union rights , whatever that means. The mainstream of the Republican Party has gone from conservative to reactionary, taking hard lines on opposing pretty much all civil rights protection for gays and and opposing any kind of immigration reforms that would allow undocumented workers to stay in the country legally. They are a far cry from the party that went to war to stop slavery and voted for civil rights legislation in the sixties.
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We're talking about gay marriage and whether being against it makes you a bigot, not whether or not anyone is a bigot, and not whether or not Mitt Romney flip-flops, and not where you think the Republican party is headed (spoiler alert! You think it's headed in the wrong direction).

The fact that almost nobody seems interested in responding to your selective political monologuing, wherein you show far more fascination with Romney's character defects than our $15 trillion debt, is not an open invitation to try to steer completely unrelated discussions back to those topics. Take a hint. Not everything can be made into a pivot point that can turn the conversation back to the same three things you want to post about all the time.



will.15's Avatar
Semper Fooey
You are discussing who is and isn't a bigot with regard to gay marriage and the reality is a large number of Republicans who are opposed to gay marriage are also opposed to practically all gay rights. And the discussion is taking place in a thread involving the presidential race so it is hardly irrelevant to bring up Mitt Romney's position and the position of Republicans regarding gays.



Hey everyone, check out this news article about wine; now they're saying it's good for you! Awhile back people used to think it wasn't. What a flip-flop. Hey, you know who else flip-flops? That Mitt Romney. He probably has to, since the Republicans are becoming a reactionary party and have been hijacked by the Tea Party. What's that? We were talking about wine? Why, so am I. Didn't you see my segue?

Okay, okay, we'll talk about something else. How about ice cream? Ice cream sells better in the summer. Every summer, around Memorial Day, I stop wearing shoes and switch to flip-flops. HEY. You know what that reminds me of?

Wait, where are you going? Come back! I wasn't trying to talk about Mitt Romney! I was talking about wine and ice cream and what fish do when they're out of water. Come baaaaaaaaack!



will.15's Avatar
Semper Fooey
Go ahead and have your fun, but the positive benefits of wine is not comparable to gay rights.



will.15's Avatar
Semper Fooey
Hardly, unless you think gay marriage is a big joke.

I didn't even click on that link, but that wine thing is hardly new. Is this what it says? A couple glasses of wine daily is good for the heart? They have been saying that for decades.



I think I lost an IQ point or two reading the last few posts or did I?
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“The gladdest moment in human life, methinks, is a departure into unknown lands.” – Sir Richard Burton



I think that there's a lot of misinformation and unfair marginalizing of people on both sides of this debate, but a lot of the things that I've been hearing in this thread really do concern me. Firstly, I think some liberals equate homophobia with honest and sincere personal convictions which question the moral permissibility of homosexuality. Someone who is homophobic is someone who has an irrational fear of homosexuals, but a lot of conservatives don't have a fear of homosexuality. They have a a conviction, grounded in part in religion, which is almost universally hostile to homosexuality, or in a fundamental and honest disagreement about what kind of society we should be. If you are a sincere Christian, Muslim, Jew, or devout follower of another religious faith, and your interpretation of your religion leads you to question whether homosexuality is a moral lifestyle, I don't think that it follows that you are necessarily homophobic. Homophobia is based on fear, not sincere and honest personal convictions. Some who morally disagree with homosexuality are homophobic, like those who bully gay people, who seek to pass laws to discriminate against gays in hiring, or shield them from anti-discrimination laws, or those who spend inordinate amounts of time thinking of the devastation that they think will result from homosexual unions. But I don't think these views describe all people, or even most, who oppose gay marriage. If you live and work with gay people, and count them among your friends, and want the best for them in their lives, I don't think you are homophobic just because you question whether the homosexual lifestyle is morally appropriate and because you are reluctant to grant marriage rights to a group of individuals who have never before been given the privilege, and who don't meet the historical definition of marriage.



I think that there's a lot of misinformation
Yes, like there being a God.

Firstly, I think some liberals equate homophobia with honest and sincere personal convictions which question the moral permissibility of homosexuality.
"The moral permissibility of homosexuality"? Holy ****. Who the hell are you?

Someone who is homophobic is someone who has an irrational fear of homosexuals, but a lot of conservatives don't have a fear of homosexuality. They have a a conviction, grounded in part in religion,...
In part? I know a few homophobes and none of them think whether gay people should marry or not is any of their business. But then, they just don't like homosexuals, they're not religious.

... which is almost universally hostile to homosexuality,
Of course it is. It doesn't produce followers.

If you are a sincere Christian, Muslim, Jew, or devout follower of another religious faith, and your interpretation of your religion leads you to question whether homosexuality is a moral lifestyle, I don't think that it follows that you are necessarily homophobic.
No. It follows that your brain's been warped by religion.

Homophobia is based on fear, not sincere and honest personal convictions. Some who morally disagree with homosexuality are homophobic, like those who bully gay people, who seek to pass laws to discriminate against gays in hiring, or shield them from anti-discrimination laws, or those who spend inordinate amounts of time thinking of the devastation that they think will result from homosexual unions. But I don't think these views describe all people, or even most, who oppose gay marriage.
In my experience, this is absolutely true.

If you live and work with gay people, and count them among your friends, and want the best for them in their lives, I don't think you are homophobic just because you question whether the homosexual lifestyle is morally appropriate...
I can understand that. People are making choices you don't agree with and you worry about them. That's good.

... and because you are reluctant to grant marriage rights to a group of individuals who have never before been given the privilege, and who don't meet the historical definition of marriage.
Oh for ****s sake.
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I really wonder if this thread has become counter-productive to some MOFO members.
Way too much time has allready been spent discussing " gay marriage " .
Suddenly, it has immerged as the most significant topic of the decade.
All pros and cons aside for the above mentioned, I would focus more on the rising cost of gasoline.



Yes, like there being a God.
More like saying there isn't! Oh, snap! Meaningless contradictions are fun. And so easy! Why, anyone can do them at any time without having to put any thought into it at all. I totally get why you're so fond of them.

"The moral permissibility of homosexuality"? Holy ****. Who the hell are you?
He's a person deciding what he believes is moral. Why, do you let somebody else decide for you?



I was going to mention how waylaid the thread had become yesterday, but Yoda made a post that made me think otherwise, so I didn't. I'd also argue that, in the UK anyway, gay marriage really isn't a big issue among 'the gay community'. Some of the more 'right on' politically minded may go on about it, but it doesn't seem to be something that anyone else is too bothered whether it's marriage or civil union. At least, not for the moment.

As for the price of fuel, that's just going to climb and climb. OK, it may dip a little or plateau for a while, but it's going to keep climbing because the good ol' days are over. Cheap fuel and food, at least as we knew it, seem to be gone.