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Well I did already say aside from the Mann/Stewart films and many Wayne movies.
But even "The Searchers" (a film I still like a great deal) is hurt by this attitude due to some of that 'Ford' humour that slips in (great in SOME films, but none should appear in a film like this!), just to take that edge off.
The stunning and dark 'shooting the eyes out' scene is then followed by humourous dialogue exchanges with the Wayne/Ford regulars after, that come more from "North to Alaska" than a tough plotline such as this.
It may not be acceptable to say so...But the similar 'Posse interaction' and posse set-up in Michael Winner's "Chato's Land" (no great classic, but a deadly serious film for a deadly serious plotline) does it MUCH better.
As Wayne fan I love that Wayne humour. Fine in "Rio Bravo"...Damn out of place in "The Searchers"
"Red River"?! Except the ending?
Well the ending is rather important to a film for one thing.
And in fact that Christ awful travesty of a finale sums up so much of what I have said and proves my point on certain problematic aspects of many of these films I have.
That ending was the very definition of the clean cut, keep the kid and Mums happy, attitude of the time in so many Westerns.
Even those that don't warrant such an ending due to everything else that happened before.
If "Red River" was originally made in the 70's...You would not be saying 'except for the ending'. As that would never get past the written page let alone actually appearing in the film.
I'm all for lighthearted Westerns...If they ARE lighthearted Westerns. "Red River" was not meant to be one..but it's ending is. It stinks like a prairie dog!
"The Cowboys" from 1972 (see my point!) was far more honest and dramatically satisfying (though still effectively sentimental and moving) yet is sadly neglected, but it leaves the ever-lauded "Red River" in the dust.
It may only be the ending that kills "Red River"...But that's big enough and it does indeed leave it well and truly, stone cold, dead.
I have the exact same problem (obviously the very final scene aside) with Mann's "The Furies", where this wonderful dark tale of bubbling incest, murder, revenge and betrayal turns into an 'all is forgiven, lets stroll hand in hand laughing to restart our love 'n' friendship' plot wrap-up! What a sacharine con job!
Thank God for vengeful old Women to save at least some dignity from this dreadful finale that again would not see light of day if the film was made later.
And I never said ALL Westerns from that era either. And i'd put my 'Top 5' well above any of those mentioned above.
And in fact I don't agree that some of those you mentioned are not as i described in a good 80% of what we see in them.
"Stagecoach" may have a happy hooker ending...but the rest is a another example of 'clean and classic'. Right down to Wayne's silly school playground nickname!
It most certainly has fine moments, but is hurt by the time it was made and attitude it then had to have and be filmed with.
But that's okay...it just kills any chances of it appearing anywhere near a Top 30 Western lists I could name. But that's MY list.
And even the Mann/Stewart films ultimately tend to soften and lose their edge in time for the end credits.
Which is okay...but....well....hmm...
And in fact many of those I have seen...not seen all...are in fact EXACTLY what I was saying as far as the visual look of them goes.
Rugged chins, damn good shaves, pressed shirts and gleaming teeth, bright and shiny towns and no dirt to be seen.
Hell fire currently there is an Audi Murphy Western on from as late as 1961, "Posse from Hell"...and the faces on everyone GLEAM! Stubble? ****ing baby skin is rougher looking.
Clothes look like Jill from Wardrobe just made 'em (Because she has) and there was so much gleaming whitewash and pastel shades on buildings it looked more like Disney than Peckinpah.
Even a leather jacket was polished to a mirror shine.
Dialogue was damn near 'Well gee, shucks' and this thing can even make (yes, okay, it got mentioned at least) make the announcement of a rape sound like a slight case of hiccups.
But that's okay! Because that is what many Westerns, I seem to have committed a great crime by calling 'clean cut' (for want of a better expression), for many years were like and they served a need then and hold a cuddly place in viewers hearts now.
It's just not my thing.
I sense much defensiveness here...I have a view I have explained in detail (no 'this movie sux' garbage I think you would agree) my reasoning, but I have a love for a certain type of Western and a certain era of Western film making and that's that.
Last edited by 42ndStreetFreak; 09-19-09 at 12:23 PM.