Breaking Bad

I agree that there's plenty to critique, though, as AgrippinaX alluded to. Walt's the bad guy, make no mistake, but she doesn't respect him initially, either. I think the problem is that there's just no perspective from which his response is reasonable. Being a grown up means dealing with nuance like "one person is clearly in the wrong, but both people helped the situation get to that point," but that only gets you so far here. The show also makes it very clear that what Walt does comes from something he had in him all along, a deep resentment and pride that he chooses over his family's well-being over and over.

I have done my best to ward off that argument in advance, but I knew it was coming. I’m not even a diehard Walt fan. I like the show, but I can’t say I wanted him to win, it’s more complicated and I’d say it derails the discussion a bit in this instance. I was talking about her actions ‘as if she were a real person who does not affect any sort of plot’, and tried to make that clear.

I’m happy to admit to that. But the point I was trying to make is if I met her in real life (and, incidentally, I do know a woman like that, no, her husband is not a drug lord, yes, he’s a shockingly talented man impeded by her presence, I refused to work for him & spin his career for that reason, but that’s another story) I’d feel the same way. She is disrespectful and she doesn’t give him the ability to choose. The rest is semantics.

Yes, I mostly agree with your approach, but I disagree with the conclusion. I do and always have seen her as a real person, because I have a very similar example before my eyes, and yes, she does ‘spoil’ his life by preventing him from reaching his potential.

To give some context: we’re talking about a very talented man in his sphere. He wants to do things a certain way, maybe not the most economically viable, but then again, he’s not struggling to pay his bills, and he’s a genius - which his wife is not. She goes out of her way to prevent him from doing his job the way he sees fit and knows is best. And here we have Skyler insisting on liaising with Saul. Result: business is screwed, money is gone, Skyler/wife is very happy because the hateful business has been done away with, though her husband is heartbroken. It’s a very real situation that I’m sure is widespread but made famous by BB. And when there’s no plot to speak of, it’s especially awful to witness.

No, I am not the said man’s mistress. It’s an ailing business arrangement.

Yeah. Try a real life relationship with someone who dismisses your ambitions and tries to dictate life point by point. I could be projecting. I recognize disliking her character does not inversely mean Walt is "good."


Now I need to rewatch this (again) this year.

Thank you! I’ve seen enough of that. And there was that critic who counted how many times in the show she says ‘I need you to’ - I know it’s a writers’ oversight, but you wouldn’t believe how many times that is, roughly three per episode.

Ha wow. I'll have to count next time!


I wouldn't doubt it was intentional. First, the writing on that show was (and still is) tight. I cannot imagine that going unnoticed. Second, we need to see Walter as weak and submissive to give his character both contrast and an immediate obstacle to confront and overcome to help motivate what he is becoming during his transition to Heisenberg. A similar dynamic existed between him and his boss, Bogdan (eyebrows?). Walter was a doormat. From a writer's perspective, Skyler had to be that, I feel, to motivate the character and plot. Real life opinion? See my post above.

Re: Skyler, I'm not willing to let her off the hook, regardless of Walter's actions. She proved to be cunning and scheming, almost to a point of complementing Walter's flaws, as far as the "business" goes. Whether that's a defense mechanism to the psychological abuse, I don't know. I'm no shrink or therapist, but I think she should be held accountable for her actions.

I guess my point is that none of the characters are black or... hehe... white (get it?). All of them have done reprehensible things and yet all of them have very valid and strong reasons for us to stop and think about.

Anyway, great show. Currently my #3 favorite show of all time.


EDIT: I think it goes without saying, but just in case, I'm speaking about Skyler, the character. In no way am I talking about the actress or advocating any irrational hate against Anna Gunn. Just sayin'

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First of all, I think anyone knows there are degrees of ‘intentional’. I didn’t make that point about ‘I need you to’ as any sort of criticism of the show - I have already mentioned elsewhere that I consider it perfect. That said, a lot of things in BB evolved organically, given it was only supposed to have one season. Jesse’s scenes with the drug addicts’ kid happen organically, because Aaron Paul is good with kids, and they kept it in and made concern for children one of Jesse’s ‘big’ traits. Same with Skyler (oh, how I wish my phone would stop misspelling her name).

I do think Gunn’s portrayal of her affected how the character evolved. I’m not questioning her role in the plot as a force that pushes Walt. I do think Gilligan et al could have cut down massively on ‘I need you to’, but that doesn’t mean it spoils my enjoyment, or anything. (Incidentally, I’m convinced Gilligan could have easily come up with a completely different way of addressing Walt’s family while accomplishing the same plotting goals. The mother, anyone?)

More importantly, the idea that it is a ‘male’ thing to dislike Skyler is also anecdotal at best. When I introduced an older female relative to the show (she’s in her fifties), she loved it from the get-go, but she literally couldn’t bear to watch Skyler scenes, she’d use them to make coffee or whatnot, especially once Skyler really sets out to ‘stop’ him. With that lady, it was a case of her having a very Walt-like mind, sure: she’s been running businesses since 19 and she’s a money-making shark, so she was just annoyed at Skyler trying to stop the money-making. I feel it really isn’t as clear cut as that, in short. A few women I know disliked her.

I think for me it comes down to her utter disrespect for another person’s space. While it would have been boring to have her ‘supporting’ his endeavours, for sure, I think it would have been very interesting to see a slippery slope take, where she says to herself, ‘Okay, he’s sick, he’s doing it for the kids’ and eventually grows accustomed to the idea. (I think that’s not what actually happens on the show.)

Alternatively, she could have easily ‘not supported’ him while leaving him the **** alone. There’s a scene in Prisoners when Nancy says, ‘We won’t help but we won’t stop him, either.’ You have the irony of her not wanting anything to do with the money that he’s killing himself to make either way.

Someone who is an accountant was explaining to me how she would lose her licence and chance to stay in the profession if she didn’t help Ted (because you can’t realistically claim you ‘didn’t know’ as chief accountant). But with Walt, given how totally gobsmacked everyone is at the end, if she just withdrew and refused to take the money and later said she didn’t know, that’d be far more realistic to my mind. I mean, really, what does she actually do to stop him except taking the kids away and making noises? She could have murdered Jesse, or something.

(The above is a joke.)

Anyway, I readily admit the Skyler topic is not something I find easy to articulate. But I remember a few reviews that said the wife in Ford vs. Ferrari was all over the place. One minute she wants him to race, the next she doesn’t. It’s exhausting and in real life most people would try to run the **** away. That’s my personal beef with ‘wives for plotting purposes’ who behave irrationally. Skyler could have left him 1,2,3,10 times over. But no, she wants to get involved with Saul, she wants to be part of everything. I do think it’s partly that as well, she gets a kick out of it, being all crime boss wifey.

Not under the divorce laws of the United States and, specifically, the laws of the State of New Mexico. New Mexico is a “community property” state. Community property states follow the rule that all assets acquired during the marriage are considered "community property."

Marital property in community property states are owned by both spouses equally (50/50). This marital property includes earnings, all property bought with those earnings, and all debts accrued during the marriage. Community property begins at the marriage and ends when the couple physically separates with the intention of not continuing the marriage. So, any earnings or debts originating after this time will be separate property.

I can’t imagine any spouse not encouraging his/her spouse to have chemo or whatever treatment is necessary. It’s not a character defect to want to live with one’s spouse as long as possible.

LOL. We could spend hours discussing this moot point. I know you’ve read Anna Karenina.

“Some kind of chemistry”? LOL, yeah, I guess they do. Literally.

I don’t see it that they like spending time together. If anyone bullied & insulted Jesse, it was Walt. Even to the very end Walt was always Mr. White to Jesse. Not once did he call him Walt.

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I’m here only on Mondays, Wednesdays & Fridays. That’s why I’m here now.

For me, that dynamic always played less as Skyler encouraging her spouse to have chemo and more as her controlling her husband while being dismissive of his wishes.

Granted, there's a slippery gray sloping area for about a mile into that topic's direction that can go one of a hundred ways depending on how we each interpret writing, character motivation, and whatever baggage we all bring to the table that may sway our views one way or another. I can generally agree (assume?) no one wants to be left alone after watching their significant other slowly die. That's tragic. I imagine unbearably so. Skyler deserves the credit that she means well.

However, with how she dominates the relationship I really have a hard time believing her decisions involved much consideration into what Walter needs. Even less so on what he wants. I do not at all think that's necessarily a flawed character; but I do find flaw in her empathy. But that's to be human. I think she was well written and she needed to be who she was for Walter to evolve. Weird repressions can be motivation. Especially with a submissive personality that Walter seems to be early on. Where that goes is up in the air, but I can't imagine that dynamic playing out well in the long run for anyone. Had he not been diagnosed with cancer, I figure he would have stayed exactly as he was, quietly muttering frustrations while doing exactly what he's told. He can't help it. Neither can Skyler, doing her control thing. It's who they were.

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"My Dionne Warwick understanding of your dream indicates that you are ambivalent on how you want life to eventually screw you." - Joel

"Ever try to forcibly pin down a house cat? It's not easy." - Captain Steel

"I just can't get pass sticking a finger up a dog's butt." - John Dumbear

Not so sure Walt was a “submissive personality” so much as one who was beaten down somewhat by life. Funniest scene was her giving him a birthday hand job under the sheets while, at the same time, looking for how much her “junk” was selling for online.

They were both definitely enablers.

Loved the scene when Walt emphatically informed Skyler that ‘I am the one who knocks”. She finally got it then.

lol. totes dismissive

Sorry for the late reply.

You’re right, of course. But emotionally speaking, I’ve always felt that was a very sad state of affairs. Besides, I’d argue they separate as a couple before she does that. It just feels unfair to me, as simple as that. I think it’s a bit like the discussion in the reviews thread: are we obliged to view everything in a plot rationally, can we not react emotionally at times? I think she is, indeed, a perfectly capable and smart woman. If she was finding what he was doing so abhorrent, she shouldn’t have touched that money even if she could do - if only because she was acting under the pretense of having moral principles up until then. There are some things that are just unfair, they will probably keep occurring in life as in fiction, but they can at least be called out.

Edit: because I felt I really couldn’t ground what I had in mind, I went and rewatched those few episodes. With the ‘pillow summit’, what strikes me now is that Skyler, ironically, sounds uncaring. She never once says it’s Walt’s decision - not even in the kind of formal way such statements are usually made. Marie and Hank both say that in their own way. Now, if you really love someone, you probably won’t feel that way, but Skyler doesn’t even see that as a viable viewpoint (that he may not want chemo). She won’t even entertain it for a second. And how she snarls at Marie for expressing a medically-grounded opinion that chemo might not be worth the suffering it brings! I may add, perhaps, that it’s not just her attitude but how she expresses it - it’s all about her, and Walt Jr, and whatnot. It’s about anything but Walt himself.

I never said it was a ‘defect’ of Skyler’s. This is a very touchy topic, way bigger than BB. I don’t know if I can articulate my feeling. But I think that scene is genuinely creepy. She seems unable to grasp any viewpoint but her own - not Walt’s, not Marie’s. It really is not up to her. I hate to make this political, but imagine a woman wanted to have an abortion if she already had a kid, and her husband would say, ‘Oh, no, that’s a group decision! That affects us - me and the other kid - I think you’re making the wrong choice and you should reconsider.’ Would that not feel utterly unwarranted & unacceptable? Where does that sense of body autonomy go when it’s a man making the decision? I honestly feel like we’re in some kind of dystopia talking about it. It seems to be such an obvious thing that a man can decide not to have treatment - or, indeed, to commit suicide or get euthanised, if that’s what he wants. I don’t know.

Please do kick that off any time. I’m already looking forward to it. AK: I have, of course, but I did like Wüthering Heights very much at one point, whereas Anna Karenina is a masterpiece, but I had less of a personal attachment to it. I brought it up because I think often people who care about each other often don’t do anything but hurt each other.

We can always agree to disagree. W. even talks to Jesse about his remission, when he really doesn’t talk to Skyler or anyone about it, and Jesse is genuinely happy for him. I think for all his psychopathy, W. feels that Jesse tends to be selflessly happy/concerned for him, no strings attached (I’m not talking the last half of the last season).

It’s true that Walt always treated Jesse like ****, but that doesn’t mean they didn’t have a deep relationship. I know people have different views on that, but I think even if Walt probably was a mean person since birth, more or less, that doesn’t mean he didn’t have a genuine attachment to Jesse. It’s likely a very selfish/narcissistic/exploitative attachment, kind of the way some people treat their favourite dog, but it’s the best he can do. As for ‘Mr. White’, that’s because Jesse is used to calling him that since school. The only few times he does call him ‘Walt’ is once they’ve already started to drift apart, in anger. So, as is often the case, the more resentment there is, the less formal it becomes. Walt, on the other hand, often calls him ‘Pinkman’ towards the end. I know this kind of comment always sounds like a cop-out, but I don’t mean it that way: there are all sorts of readings of their relationship, all the way to the idea that Walt might be in love with Jesse. I don’t think so, but the fact that exists shows it’s subject to interpretation.

Indeed. Burnt into my retinas, that. It’s kind of also a bit terrible. Some people will say, if you’ve been in a long marriage, that’s normal. But even that is a choice everyone makes - whether to resort to that or try to maintain any sort of human contact. It comes back to her just not being concerned with his feelings or respectful of him at all.

Yes, that’s definitely one of the highlights of the show.

I do very much agree with that. I’ve always thought the ‘Walt is weak at the start’ claims were a bit misguided. He just can’t be bothered to come back at people/life.

Eh, to me, I don't see how the distracted handjob scene was a good example of Skyler neglecting Walt (if she was really doing that, she wouldn't be touching him at all); I just think her doing it while online shopping was just a comedic element the writers put in, without it meaning anything more significant. Besides that, the (at worst) mild nagging that she occasionally engaged in doesn't justify hating her as a character, as I just think that some guys out there are just looking for excuses to hate on any sort of "strong" female character who stands up to a man at all, even when they're objectively in the right (or at least, far more often in the right than Walt was).

I might leave the topic there. Feels to me like a great many things are getting conflated, which doesn’t help. I started out explaining why I ‘hated her’ (read ‘strong dislike’, nothing personal). What I think is slightly problematic in all threads on the topic is one seems to need to justify disliking her as rational. But dislike is not rational, nor are other emotions. I’m going purely by the fact that if I had to be married to her, I’d kill myself.

Edit: I’m just trying to take this away from Skyler to throw some perspective on this. For example, I was no fan of how Steve behaves towards Annie in Hereditary, either, why is that something that needs to be confronted? It’s just an opinion which, incidentally, a great many people share (re: Skyler). To deride them all as antifeminist bigoted myopic bastards is surely a bit reductive?

As for the handjob - oh, I don’t know. Dear me, if touching someone without looking at them is a respectful thing to do while you stare at your laptop & deal with your Amazon orders (and then make a point that the said handjob is a present, and, therefore, a bit of an aberration), then I really must misunderstand something about life... to my mind, it’s more insulting to get that kind of handjob than not to get any. Appreciate it was comedic, for sure, but that doesn’t change the underlying issue.

Rant over, promise.

(By the way, a little note: if my writing style comes off as combative, that’s just professional deformation from working in a political consultancy - I love this place & all discussions and don’t mean to come off as aggressive at all).

By that time she was an accessory so, IMO, she may as well have used the money.

I think in the show it was very lightly touched on that both Skyler & Hank were a tad dismissive of Marie’s “medical opinions” even though she was a radiologist.

The man wouldn’t be making the decision. I see nothing wrong with the man needing to express his thoughts in such a situation if, in fact, he has been apprised of the situation. If it were me, I wouldn’t tell him since it’s my decision only.

Totally. What I always say is that marriage can make monsters of two very nice people. Then throw in a divorce & all bets are off.

Totally agree.


One final thing I want to say. Walt ruined Skyler’s life in my opinion. Look at where she ended up: chain-smoking in a dreary little apartment & no money. Her house was gone & her business was gone. How she would move forward knowing that everyone knows who she is is hard for me to fathom. Thank goodness she has her two children to live for.

Btw, please don’t feel I just ignored that post. I went on to rewatch the whole thing, which took time, and though I stick to my opinion re Skyler, I fully agree with your point above. He did ruin her life, as with most people he came into contact with. I guess I just feel it’s a sort of balance, as he didn’t seem to have been happy with her for a long, long time, and now he’s made her miserable.

Okay, but it’s not tit-for-tat in a marriage. He wasn’t happy so she ended up not being happy was not what Walt ever intended. He started this whole venture to provide financial security for those he knew he was going to leave behind.

Funny thought: nobody ever discusses Hank & Marie’s marriage although it was a huge part of the show. And we glimpsed only a few seconds of what Marie’s life as a widow is like. Strange omission, IMO.