God Returns to MoFo! ~ Why You Should Believe in God
How did you get to be so religious, seanc?
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Belief is enriching if it enriches you.
Did you? Thank you. I don't remember that happening/what thread it was.
Originally Posted by Omnizoa
I get what you're saying. We operate by consequence, if-then-else programming. In that regard, you're right, our choices are individually predictable in that way, however those choices are dependent on our experiences and how we interpret those experiences is up to us. Given an altercation with someone, such as the driver of a drunk driving accident, the agency of choice involved in whether to forgive them or not is on one level existentially meaningless, but on another level limited to our faculties.
Choice is an illusion insofar as every choice we make is a fundamentally consequential response from our brain to a given range of stimuli, but choice isn't an illusion insofar as every choice we make is dependent on our self-aware understanding of what would be a logical response to those same stimuli.
Choice is an illusion insofar as every choice we make is a fundamentally consequential response from our brain to a given range of stimuli, but choice isn't an illusion insofar as every choice we make is dependent on our self-aware understanding of what would be a logical response to those same stimuli.
Originally Posted by Zotis
Free Will means that God gives us a choice to believe in him or reject him,
Originally Posted by Omnizoa
That would be a third, separate definition.
Originally Posted by Sexy Celebrity
I wonder why that's so terrible -- just to know you have an illusion of control. Especially to an atheist. You can disagree with the science.... but I wonder why.
Originally Posted by Omnizoa
it's not an infallible truth, the argument is a difference in definition. That we don't share your definition of "free will" is pretty simple: it's not a productive interpretation of the concept. Taken the wrong way, it can be abused and excused.
Originally Posted by Sexy Celebrity
This doesn't mean we should go out and kill people because "you won't be at fault." You WILL be at fault...
Originally Posted by Omnizoa
If we're still going to put weight on choice and consequence then that just goes to show how unproductive that mindset is by qualifying everything as, "BTW, free will is an illusion".
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"Well, at least your intentions behind the UTTERLY DEVASTATING FAULTS IN YOUR LOGIC are good." - Captain Steel
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A question for believers who'd care to answer it:
Is the Bible the divine word of God?
(it's not a gotcha or a trap. I'm just interested)
Is the Bible the divine word of God?
(it's not a gotcha or a trap. I'm just interested)
When God spoke through the prophets, he inspired them to write his word and deliver it to the people. When the people received it they knew right away that it was inspired by God. All Scripture has been received this way. It was instantly acknowledged as Scripture by God's people (not necessarily by the world) and copied and passed down from generation to generation.
Here are some things the Bible says about itself:
"God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world." -Hebrews 1:1
"You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them, and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work." -2 Timothy 3:14-17
"Then the Lord stretched out His hand and touched my mouth, and the Lord said to me, 'Behold, I have put My words in your mouth.'" -Jeremiah 1:9
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Saying there's no such thing as "free will" is all well and good, but if you're still going to hold people accountable for their decisions, then it ceases to be a mean anything.
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Do you have the free will to believe in God Omnizoa? Okay, then do it. Go ahead. Prove to me that you have free will and believe in God right now. Don't just say that you believe in him, but actually genuinely honestly do from the depth of your being. You can't. The only way that you could believe in God is if he proved to you that he existed, because you are already convinced that he doesn't exist.
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*laughs* Okay. By that measure then, murder is enriching if it enriches me.
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What needs closure? This "meaning of life" stuff is so often presented as this open-wound-problem. Why must your life have any meaning or purpose to live it?
I ask because children are raised into occupying themselves with hobbies and interests and find value in family and friends long before they can ever truly conceptualize something as vast as grand plans or the meaning of their existence.
I ask because children are raised into occupying themselves with hobbies and interests and find value in family and friends long before they can ever truly conceptualize something as vast as grand plans or the meaning of their existence.
If my shoelaces have that much meaning, how much more so must my life have meaning.
Is that an analogy for life? Who isn't taking their lives seriously?
Or are you suggesting that you're not being serious unless you subscribe to someone else's uninformed ideas?
Or are you suggesting that you're not being serious unless you subscribe to someone else's uninformed ideas?
Are we talking about the old gods or the new?
There is only one god, Death, and what do we say to death?
Not today.
There is only one god, Death, and what do we say to death?
Not today.
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It just depends on what sense you mean "free will." If all you mean by free will is that we are accountable for our decisions, then yes in that sense we have free will. But I was referring to the theological term of free will, because that was the context of the discussion, free will vs grace. In the sense of being accountable for your decisions, both the doctrine of free will and the doctrine of grace agree. It is the nature of salvation that these two doctrine's disagree very strongly. Are we saved by free will, or are we saved by grace? Are we saved by a choice to believe in God, or is the right choice a gift God gives to those whom he chooses? If he is enabling us to make the right choice, and ensuring that we do, then it's not an act of our free will to believe in him. We don't have free will in the sense that we can not choose to believe in God and love and obey him on our own, we need him to intervene in our daily lives.
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Originally Posted by Zotis
It just depends on what sense you mean "free will." If all you mean by free will is that we are accountable for our decisions, then yes in that sense we have free will.
Originally Posted by Zotis
We don't have free will in the sense that we can not choose to believe in God and love and obey him on our own, we need him to intervene in our daily lives.
Do you have the free will to believe in God Omnizoa? Okay, then do it. Go ahead. Prove to me that you have free will and believe in God right now.
Do you have the free will to believe in God Omnizoa? Okay, then do it. Go ahead. Prove to me that you have free will and believe in God right now.
Originally Posted by Zotis
Don't just say that you believe in him, but actually genuinely honestly do from the depth of your being.
You just said I can't choose not to believe so what does it matter if I believe more or less strongly?
Originally Posted by Zotis
You can't. The only way that you could believe in God is if he proved to you that he existed, because you are already convinced that he doesn't exist.
Originally Posted by Zotis
Fixed.
And you'll be hard pressed to dispute that.
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If you're confidently dismissing any major side of a subject the smartest people in history have argued about, the only thing that really tells us is that you haven't thought about this seriously.
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Originally Posted by Omnizoa
Oh no, murder IS quite enriching to me. I know it for a fact.
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Me and you are going to be rehashing old ground here but I have to ask again. What is the point of faith and grace if God chooses who he intervenes and doesn't for? We need to ask him to intervene, otherwise all God's spiritual gifts are for naught.
We need to ask him to intervene, but not in order for him to intervene. He doesn't need our permission. Us asking him is for our benefit. He is sovereign over all things, and that includes our will, and any questions we may ask him.
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Faith is a gift from God and it is the foundation for our salvation. We're saved by grace through faith. (see Ephesians 2:8 and Romans 12:3)
We need to ask him to intervene, but not in order for him to intervene. He doesn't need our permission. Us asking him is for our benefit. He is sovereign over all things, and that includes our will, and any questions we may ask him.
We need to ask him to intervene, but not in order for him to intervene. He doesn't need our permission. Us asking him is for our benefit. He is sovereign over all things, and that includes our will, and any questions we may ask him.
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Originally Posted by Sexy Celebrity
If it is, it is. Should you go to jail and be executed for murdering people? Of course.
Originally Posted by Sexy Celebrity
Real murder that you have committed yourself? Or pretend murder (in movies, books, maybe your own imagination)?
Originally Posted by Sexy Celebrity
I really, really, REALLY don't wanna make this thread all about free will....... but the thing is, no matter what, people don't have free will. Doesn't matter if you hold people accountable or not. There's no free will. It does not cease to mean anything.
Originally Posted by Zotis
My life must have meaning because everything I do has meaning. I tie my shoelaces for several reasons. To keep my shoes held fast on my feet, so I don't trip over the laces, so I don't wreck my shoes by slipping them on and off all the time, etc...
If my shoelaces have that much meaning, how much more so must my life have meaning.
If my shoelaces have that much meaning, how much more so must my life have meaning.
Originally Posted by Zotis
I'm trying to illustrate a principle, that you have to take life seriously and ask questions and figure it out before you die. Ignorance is the cause of many deaths. Like for example low-fat or sugar-free foods that are presented as healthy but actually cause cancer. If you don't examine your surroundings, ask questions, and diligently seek truth, then you won't survive.
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It's not fair to assume the opponent's position, I haven't taken a stance in this argument. That would be a strawman.
Accountability is not free will though. They're separate things. IF we have free will, then accountability is reasonable, if we DON'T have free will, then accountability is unreasonable.
I think it's just a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of choice. We are not presented with choices all the time where there are two options and you're completely free to pick whichever you want. For starters we don't have all the information, and our options are often misrepresented to us. Other people manipulate us. We have fears and bias. We may not choose a better option just because we think the worse option is better. We make thousands of choices every day if not millions, and most of them we don't even think about. We are all ignorant about so many things. Are we free to choose things that we don't want, or things that we don't like or understand, are we free to make choices that we aren't even aware that we have? We can be manipulated and controlled. We don't have perfect self control, so we can't even control our own actions sometimes. We have emotional outbursts and do things that we regret.
If you have free will, try going the rest of your life without telling another lie. Can it be done? Can anyone go their entire life without telling a single lie?
I think if we had free will, then we would have perfect self-control.
From the Biblical perspective our will is enslaved by sin and only God can set us free.
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I think if we had free will, then we would have perfect self-control.
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If by "meaning of" you mean "reasons for" then the meaning of your life is that your parents had sex and conceived you.
Fair enough, but where's the risk to my life if I don't solve the origins of the universe? There isn't exactly someone pointing a gun to my head telling me to "PHILOSOPHIZE DAMMIT OR I'LL BLOW YOUR BRAINS OUT!"
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I think the opposite. If God created us in his image with no free will, then we would practice perfect self-control.
Besides, it doesn't matter what we think, if not having free will doesn't make sense to you. We must conform our thoughts to the pattern of his will. Scripture is what dictates whether we have free will or not. If the Bible says we're saved through grace, why do you say you're saved through you're own choice? You can't take a verse that says we have to choose and are responsible, and use it to ignore verses that say God gives us faith and God knew us before the foundation of the world. You have to reconcile all of the passages of Scripture with each other in order to understand them. Having to choose to believe in God can't be interpreted on it's own without the rest of the Bible.
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If the Bible says we're saved through grace, why do you say you're saved through you're own choice?
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