Top Ten Gangster Movies

top 10, well...scarface, godfather, untouchables, the usual suspects, carlito's way.

I know everybody has their own definitions, but I don't see how crime flicks such as Reservoir Dogs and The Usual Suspects are "gangster" movies.

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They aren't.

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Thanks! Sorry, I never think about that--just assume everyone has seen the film by the time I get to it. And I'm not PC savvy enough to set up barriers myself.

Well, how big does a "gang" have to be? I believe that in each of the 2 movies there are enough suspects in the depicted crimes to qualify for federal prosecution under the Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organization Act (RICO) aimed at taking down organized crime. I once covered a federal trial involving illegal gambling that to make the minimum number for a RICO prosecution, the Feds even charged the parking lot attendant!

The Godfather II
The Godfather
Goodfellas
Donnie Brasco
Public Enemy
The Departed

I only listed a few because I really need to re-watch some of the others like Once Upon a Time in America and Casino…

and, not a serious gangster movie of course… but Oscar always makes me chuckle so I thought I would at least mention it....

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Yes. You do realize I'm not speaking as the A.D.A. trying to figure out which crimes and statues each of these fictional characters might be charged with, but rather a movie fan trying to divide films up into genres for the sake of discussion, yeah?

By your logic, the Disney movies Herbie Goes to Monte Carlo, 101 Dalmations (the cartoon and the live-action remake) and The Rescuers are all "Gangster Movies", as are The Sting, The Wild Bunch, Goldfinger, Kelly's Heroes and anything else that has more than a couple people getting together to plan and commit a crime or crimes. Huzzah.

But this here is a movie board, and if we're trying to narrow the discussion on a topic to specifics, these kinds of distinctions are necessary and much of the point. Many films straddle genres and cases can be made for whether or not they fit here or there. But widening it too much is counterproductive. If somebody starts a thread about 'Your Favorite Gene Hackman Movies' and somebody says how much they love Star Wars, that's great, but it's in the wrong thread. Of course Gangster Movies are not as easily and exclusively identifiable as Gene Hackman movies, but we should be able to come to some kind of consensus about, at the very least, what isn't a Gangster movie instead of spending time on what fictional crimes might be punishable under RICO...as fascinating as that is.

How would one charge Miss Piggy in The Great Muppet Caper? We'll need a Barrister familiar with the statues particular to London, of course, but this is key to whether or not I list it among my favorite Kiddie Comic Heist Movies or Puppet Gangster Activity flicks.

I'd call Reservoir dogs a gangster and a heist movie. The job was set up by a crime family, just because they brought in outsiders doesn't make it any less of a gangster film for me. If the title of the thread was top ten 'Mafia' movies my list would have been looked different.

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Jeeze, Pike, I didn't mean to get you all excited! I wondered if you were dividing those films up in the heist film category rather than the gangster film category because of the small number and loose affiliation of the gangs. You do realize I was only discussing one of many possible viewpoints, not attacking you personally, yeah?

But it does bring up an interesting question--should films reflect at least some of the reality of the world we know, or are they always free to take flights of fancy whenever they choose?

Anyway, I agree the definition of a “gangster film” can vary from person to person and movie to movie. But just for the sake of discussion, how about Thief (1981) in which James Caan plays an independent jewel thief who contracts his special skills to the mob and uses the mob to get what he wants in life (including buying a friend out of prison) and then gets pushed to the wall when gangster Robert Prosky wants to bring him into the mob. Is that a gangster film?

How about Things Change (1988), in which a shoe repairman agrees to take the rap as a killer and mixes with members of the mob (again with Robert Prosky doing a masterful turn as a Godfather) although not a member. If most of the scenes involve dealing with a gang, is it a gangster film?

Then there’s Brother Orchid (1940) with Eddie Robinson as a hood hiding out in a religious retreat (also featuring Allen Jenkins). Or A Slight Case of Murder (1938) with Robinson as a bootlegger going straight after prohibition only to discover the beer he made was so bad that no one would buy it except at gunpoint. Or the 1952 remake, Stop You’re Killing Me with Broderick Crawford, Claire Trevor, and Sheldon Leonard. If the movie is about gangsters but it's played for laughs, is it still a gangster film? Is there such a thing as gangster comedy?

How about a real stretch—Pocketful of Miracles (1961) with Glenn Ford, Peter Falk, Sheldon Leonard, Mickey Shaughnessy. Or Guys and Dolls (1951) with Vivian Blaine, B.S. Pulley, Sheldon Leonard, and even Jerry Orbach in an unaccredited part. If the longest running crap game in the history of New York isn’t organized crime, what is?

I'm not trying to force you to accept any opinion not your own; I'm not even arguing with you. But you're a bright guy and have a good knowledge about films and usually discuss issues intelligently, so I'm curious as to how you define the gangster genre.

As for my "logic," faulty or not, I disagree that a discussion of how modern law enforcement defines organized crime necessarily stretches to include The Wild Bunch (when the bandits are riding horses instead of Fords, I'd say it was a Western) or 1,001 Dalmations (a Disney cartoon is a Disney cartoon, although Bugs Bunny sometimes encountered mobsters in some of his films). I couldn't say about the Herbie films, since I haven't seen them.

I'm not even going to get into the whole "what is/isn't a gangster movie." It's very much like the argument of what is or isn't a horror movie. Each person has his or her own definition, and I think the discussion suffers when you define a genre too narrowly. I especially think discussion suffers when someone tries to enter the discussion and then is shot down immediately.

Wow, I sure did a good job of not engaging in the argument, huh?

Anyway, what I wanted to say is that I've seen a whole lot of talk about American gangster movies, with the occasional Brit or French movie thrown in, but what about other non-American gangster movies? Especially those from Asia.

I guess The Killers couldn't really be considered a gangster movie, although I love it, but how about A Better Tomorrow (I and II)?

Also:
Infernal Affairs (the outstanding film upon which The Departed was based)
Hard Boiled
Supercop (1992)

any others?

Godfather
GodfatherII
Goodfellas
City Of God
The Krays
The Departed
State Of Grace
Miller's Crossing
Once Upon A Time In America
Things To Do In Denver When You Are Dead
Sexy Beast

Also Worth Mentioning: Heat, Casino, Brother, The Code, In The Kingdom Of The Blind, Our Lady Of The Assassins, Rush, Sleepers, In Too Deep, A History Of Violence, The Getaway, Rolling Thunder, City Of Industry, Carlito's Way, Billy Bathgate, Lock, Stock And Two Smoking Barrels, The City Of Lost Souls, Dead Man's Bluff, Memories Of A Killer, A Read Bear, 13 Tzameti, Traffic, White Heat

I think you mean The Killer - Chow Yun-Fat works to save a blind singer? Yeah. I wondered whether or not that counts. If a movie centres on a man who does hits for a mob (e.g. Léon) is it really that much of a mob movie? Well, Léon isn't, but you get my point.

Meanwhile, I still have to get around to doing a top 10...

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I guess we could call the thread "Top Ten Crime Thrillers" or something. I guess "Gangster" is equated with Italian or Irish mob. But if we're talking gritty crime dramas in general, my favorites would probably be:

1. Godfather
2. Godfather Part 2
3. The Departed
4. Goodfellas
5. The Yakuza
6. Heat
7. The Usual Suspects
8. A History of Violence
9. Scarface
10. Donnie Brasco

I'm ashamed to say, I've never seen Casino, but it's on my "to do" list.

I guess there could be an overall general category like "crime movies" with subdivisions of gangster movies, caper movies, assassin movies, etc. But what determines a gangster movie? The size of the gang? It's ethnic nature? The fact that they're wearing pin-striped suits? Is The Brinks Job a mob movie or a caper movie? It's all about one particular robbery but it involves a gang of professional criminals and a certain amount of ethnicticity, folks from the same neighborhood. And if The Brinks Job is or isn't a gangster movie, then what about The Killing, where a professional crook brings together a gang of his own for a specific robbery. Some are just hired assistants, others are in for part of the cut, but all must do their part for the robbery to succeed. Would the same standards apply, however, to the original Ocean's 11 or the later remake? I would guess The Thomas Crown Affair would be a caper movie, but what about The Hot Rock? Again a gang of sorts is involved in a specific robbery. What about The Italian Job (I've seen only the original, so I can't comment about the remake)?

Does the story have to be told from the criminal point of view to be a crime movie, or can the police also be involved, as in The Usual Suspects? Or is there a separate category for crime films vs. police films? Is The Detective Story a crime story or a police story? How about The Big Easy, which pits crooked cops against the Dixie Mafia and black drug lords? Is a film about crooked cops a police story or a crime story? Is American Gangster a crime story or a police story?

Pike earlier raised the question of Kelly's Heroes--is that a war movie or a crime movie? What about A Soldier's Story that centers on the investigation of the murder of a soldier. How about Town Without Pity in which soldiers are on trial for rape? A Few Good Men? The General's Daughter? I would say The Caine Mutiny is definitely a military movie since the centerpiece trial involves military issues of mutiny and cowardice.

When I think of gangster films (or of gangsters) I think of intense, unselfconsciously macho, preening, impulsive but also self-interested characters. Easily readable character motivations like greed, attraction, revenge, ambition, status being the primary drivers of the storytelling. That said I think my favorites are ones that go off on a tangent from that basic form. I don't care if they're realistic/gritty depictions of gang life or detailing the minutia of mob power structure or anything like that (maybe it's because as far back as I can remember, I've never wanted to be a gangster).

Minbo. Awesome satire of Yakuza, all the more funny because of the fact that the mob actually put the director in the hospital for making it. Whenever I hear people rhapsodize some gangland soap opera for it's unflinching realism or whatever I think of this quirky Japanese comedy.

Sonatine. Gangsters go on vacation, have a lot of more or less suicidal fun. Interesting mix of beauty and pain.

The Untouchables. Ridiculous and unbelievable but I think it's a fun pastiche and really like the four main characters and writing. The bit where Kevin Costner shoots a hood after warning him not to go for his gun then shouts at the guy's corpse ("what do you think this is, a game?!") might be my favorite line in the whole film.

Miller's Crossing. I like how this, in a way makes fun of stereotypical gangster acting. The main character reads and plays all the (all too-obvious) mob personalities against each other. But I also like how it takes all the characters and stakes seriously.Tom's a smart gangster except that he isn't:

I also like some of the more traditional gangster epics people have mentioned in this thread. My favorites have probably been in roughly this order: Godfather Part II, The Long Good Friday, The Godfather, Goodfellas, American Gangster. I just don't find myself thinking about or wanting to re-watch those ones like I do the top four.

In reading (and agreeing with) your summation of Tom in Miller's Crossing it struck me that same description could be applied to Clint Eastwood's character in A Fistful of Dollars.

I'm glad you mentioned The Long Good Friday, another good film that is interesting in the way it plays the criminal Irish Republican Army off the criminal English mob. The mob thought it was tough, but it plays for gold while the IRA is out for blood.

These are all good questions, and I don't know if there is any one "right" answer to them. For me, I definitely draw a distinction between heist movies and gangster movies. A heist movie revolves around one particular job and perhaps its aftermath. Therefore Kelly's Heroes, The Hot Rock, etc are heist movies, not gangster movies (Kelly's Heroes is also a war movie, albeit not at all realistic). And I consider film noir and gangster movies as separate genres, although their definitions can certainly overlap.
A Few Good Men and The Caine Mutiny are both what I consider to be courtroom dramas, although some of the action takes place outside of the courtroom. (Actually, The Caine Mutiny is based on the play The Caine Mutiny Court Martial, in which all of the action takes place in the courtroom). I regret that I haven't seen A Soldier's Story, so I can't speak to that.

For me, a gangster movie is hard to define. I was just about to say that it focuses on a group of criminals, usually three or more, and is told mostly from their point of view. But then again I definitely consider Little Ceasar and White Heat to be gangster movies even though they both focus primarily on individuals, but don't feel the same way about Bonnie and Clyde, which fits all of my own definitions of the genre (perhaps that's because it's so good that it transcends the genre).

Confused? I know I am.
I guess it just goes to show how unimportant and sometimes meaningless labels can be. That is, for me. As always YMMV (your mileage may vary).

I hadn't thought of that when I was writing it up, but that's an interesting comparison (though well outside of the gangster genre I reckon). I actually haven't yet seen A Fistful of Dollars, but I know the gist and have seen the movie that 'Fistfull' is based on, Yojimbo, which is also similarly comparable (with the important difference that the "hero" of Yojimbo is an outsider to the gang rivalry). Also interesting and to bring this back to Dashiell Hammett (who was mentioned earlier in the thread), on IMDB it says Yojimbo is an uncredited adaptation of a Hammett novel.

Eastwood's character is Fistful is also outside of the rivalry; he just plays the two gangs off against one another. The Bruce Willis movie Last Man Standing is a very poor adaptation of A Fistful of Dollars and its predecessor Yojimbo. If you've seen it you know the premise of the Sergio Leone movie.

Well, Hammett only wrote five novels, so that would be Red Harvest vis-a-vis Yojimbo/A Fistful of Dollars. One of the first books I bought was the Columbia House collection of Dashiell Hammett's Five Complete Novels.

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