War in the Middle East

Written documents and open debates are the most powerful weapons against the aggression of countries like Israel. So I'll continue to write and I'll continue to educate anyone willing to listen about the horror and atrocity that is the government of Israel.

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Δύο άτομα. Μια μάχη. Κανένας συμβιβασμός.

I wouldn't explain history. I'd tell a story.

You have to ignore history because none of these people are talking about it. Is in there minds right now? Hell no. War is in their minds. It's completely different from what you think it is. Most of them probably forgot how they got there. It's just a burst of blinded anger. That's all. What's going on right now is just built up rage and frustration. It's being released on both ends. And wa-la, WAR! And please don't tell me it isn't a war. It very well is. We don't necessarily need the public announcement.

As for your you demolish my house logic...what are you smoking? Is it a Hookah filled with coke? Trying to respond to something so ILLOGICAL and CHILDISH is very difficult. I'll refrain from it.

Are you telling me that? Are you telling Israel? Cause you're directing it in the wrong direction.

http://img284.imageshack.us/img284/2...atesmapei6.png

They're fighting for that chunk of land.

1. This was inevitable. Period. It's been like this for years. This dates back centuries and centuries. Everybody was under the impression it wouldn't happen due to the technology of the world and the universal bond of communication. That since everybody has caught up in technical terms that we can all be friends. Right.

2. Sitting there and trying to back up the statements of a terrorist organization with historical bull**** that doesn't imply to Israelis today is pathetic and pretty damn radical. What your ancestors felt for my ancestors doesn't mean we should have inheirted it. But guess what? RELIGION IS GENETICS! Are my posts a bit of a shot at religion? Absolutely.

3. You're talking about gaining peace, BUT YOU WON'T DROP THE PAST? "Oh they came here and did this and did this." Well that's the pretense. Look towards the picture. AND PLEASE DO NOT REPLY WITH A DEMOLITION FANTASY OF YOURS TO THIS POST. I do agree. Bombing for peace is like ****ng for virginity. It's just that none of them want peace. How many wars have been after peace? None. Bush sure as hell redefined the idea and failed miserably.

You're trying to feel sympathy and show empathy towards countries and organizations that don't want it. You may read all the articles you want, but you will never truely get into their heads. Simple as that.

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We're soldiers. Soldiers don't go to hell. It's war. Soldiers, they kill other soldiers. We're in a situation where everybody involved knows the stakes. And if you're gonna accept those stakes... You gotta do certain things. It's business, we're soldiers. We follow codes... Orders.

No offense but, is that going to stop it?

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"This is that human freedom, which all boast that they possess, and which consists solely in the fact, that men are conscious of their own desire, but are ignorant of the causes whereby that desire has been determined." -Baruch Spinoza

You are generalizing. Palestine isn't at war with Israel. Is Iraq at war with USA? There are Palestinian terrorist groups that are at war with Israel, but that's another thing. Fatah, the former goverment party did put down their weapons but it didn't stop the violence. Could Israel have done more to award the Palestinans back then? Like avoiding from provocations like building walls higher than the one in Berlin on Palestinian territory? Hamas, the current Palestinian party wants to wipe Israel out from the face of the Earth - but on the other hand - the same does Israel want to do with Hamas. The fact that Fatah and Hamas not long ago were fighting among each other is another proof of that you're wrong when you're viewing Palestine as a country as being at war with Israel. Fatah badly wants to negotiate with the Israelis while Hamas are not very eager to do so.

"If Israel put down their weapons tomorrow, there would be no more Israel." Well, that is a catchy thing to say. What you are saying is that if the Israeli army stopped attacking villages containing 1 part terrorists and 9 parts civilians tomorrow, Israel would be attacked by all surrounding arabs and muslims in general, refuse to defend itself against these attacks and USA and the rest of the world would do nothing. And then, there would be no more Israel. Is there anyone that believes this would ever happen?

"They are surrounded by numerous (and relentless) enemies who have made it repeatedly clear that they want them wiped from the face of the earth." Well, Hamas have made that clear and I'm sure they share that view with most extreme groups in Palestine and the Palestinian refugee camps. Only thing is, these groups are surrounded by the Israelis rather than the other way around. Can you be specific regarding which states neighbouring to Israel that officially want to wipe them out?

I think you are very onesided in your view of this very complex and infected problem, Chris. Your sympathies are wholeheartedly with the Israelis and to me it's hard to understand how you seem to completely miss the fact that since 1948 the Palestinians have been more or less stateless. Many of these terrorists have grown up in refugee camps that repeatedly have been struck hard by the Israeli army in its search for terrorists. What exactly do you expect them to do?? If the Palestinians put down their weapons today they would still have nothing, or at least, very little. Not saying that they could not still achieve what they want if they did put down their weapons, but can you honestly expect them to see it that way while being "controlled" by one of the strongest military forces in the world? Israel is the only nation in the world with nuklear weapons that is not supposed to have those weapons - but still, they have nukes!! And Syria or Iran only have to fart in the wrong direction and USA would be there in three seconds - before Syria or Iran fart in the wrong direction. And again.... Israel's got the nukes (and bombed Iraq's nuclear facilities as far back as in 1981, for that matter. Imagine that scenario but with the table turned around).

There is the aspect of the terror balance. The one thing that you're right about is that without Israel's heavy artillery and with the backup from USA, the region would probably have blown up long ago. That doesn't mean that Israel hasn't committed terrible violent acts as bad as the ones that terrorists do. Or that they are justified to do so.

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The novelist does not long to see the lion eat grass. He realizes that one and the same God created the wolf and the lamb, then smiled, "seeing that his work was good".

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They had temporarily escaped the factories, the warehouses, the slaughterhouses, the car washes - they'd be back in captivity the next day but now they were out - they were wild with freedom. They weren't thinking about the slavery of poverty. Or the slavery of welfare and food stamps. The rest of us would be all right until the poor learned how to make atom bombs in their basements.

I'm really not interested in debating with you anymore because you keep contradicting yourself. You say that "no one should look at their history" but then two seconds later you say "it is built up anger". How is it built Up if it ISN'T A PART OF THEIR DAMN HISTORY.

WHY DOES ANY COUNTRY FIGHT ANOTHER COUNTRY IF NOT FOR HISTORY...


I really just dont buy your logic whatsoever.

But then again you contradict yourself AGAIN:

"It's been like this for years. This dates back centuries and centuries"

I thought history doesn't matter.

The truth of the matter is no matter how much you'd like to ignore how vicious the israeli's were when they conquered this land 60 years ago...you can't. The people still remember the day their father were killed in murderous acts of tyranny by the new state of israel.

In fact I would argue with you to my dying day that this war has the most to do with history than any other war.

Also that "chunk of land" is worth more than any other peice of land on earth. There is more historical (there we go with unneeded history again) significance to this land than any other. Not to mention, its an arab nation which is why so many arab nations still fight for it.

Mark my words, as long as israel exists...there will be no peace in the middle east.

I would say the same about the palestinians except the arab world extends much farhter and deeper out than just the palestinians.

Right on man. I have tremendous respect for you.

I don't think you're understanding what I'm trying to say. I'm saying at this moment nobody cares about the history of the two. A war is brewing. For some reason you've taken that statement and blown it up.

But if you want to talk history, that's completely fine. That chunk of land is nothing but a chunk of land to me. But as for the Arabs and the Israelis its something completely else. That's why I referred to it as a chunk of land. I'm thinking of the mindset of a bystander. Sorry.

So father's died fighting for their land. It's happened everywhere else. The Brits did it to us. We did it to the Spanish. It's a never ending chain. Yet we've put aside the differences from THE PAST. Of course religion and politics are two different things. It's just that you can't have one with out the other. That's why I can squeeze that into this debate.

I don't know your religion, but you seem to be holding back the urge to say "**** THE JEWS!"

Also correct me if I'm wrong, but it's not entirely the Arabs that are putting up this fight. It's the Muslims, am I correct? Not all Arabs are Muslims. A percentage of them are Christians and of other beliefs.

Pidd pointed out they've been stateless. Haven't they for centuries? Sure the PLO was there, but they couldn't keep order. Before Israel, wasn't it the Brits that had control ? Didn't they HELP with movement to Israel? For some reason when Pidd says Palestine has been stateless...it seems to me as if they don't seem to have the organization to become a state of their own. Their own region is divided and it seems to me as if the majority of them wanted this. It seems to me as if the Palestinias wanted Hamas to start this. Without Hamas, there would not have been cooperation amongst Hezbollah and Palestine.

Equi, I think it goes to say that no matter how much you are going to put down the Israeli government, you also have to understand and accept the chaos and impurity of the Palestinians and a majority of the Muslims the same belief.

I'm tired and sick. I'll come back to this tomorrow.

Yes, they have been stateless for centuries and yes during the WWI the plan to make Palestine a home for the jews developed among the Brits. The Brits couldn't make out a solution that both the jewish and the arab population could agree on, so they left the matter to the UN which divided Palestine into one jewish and one arab territory. The arab nations and PLO, who had just founded Arab League, made a stupid move and instantly attacked Israel, the new jewish state, in 1948. UN made an ultimatum and within a couple of months the fighting had ceased. The Arab League was scattered and Israel managed to drive the Egypt troops out of the Negeve Desert. But instead of falling back on the original borders of the 1947 UN agreement, Israel occupied the entire Palestine, except for the West Bank which was occupied by Jordan until 1967 when Israel occupied the West Bank as well.

In 1979 we saw the Camp David peace agreement between Egypt and Israel and the two parts agreed to work for peace in the region and for Palestinian autonomy in the West Bank and Gaza. In the 1980's the PLO proclaimed that they rejected violence in their struggle for freedom and that they welcomed a two state solution. In 1988 they proclaimed the state Palestine but didn't win any recognition in the world due to their lack of control over the territory, partly thanks to Israel. The Intifada also broke out in the 1980's which also put pressure on Israel to cease their occupation. And when many arab states sided with USA against Iraq during the Gulf War in 1991 the pressure increased on USA to help out in the struggle for jewish and arab coexistence in the region.

That was fifteen years ago....

You are completely right when you say that the Palestinians don't have the organization to become a state of their own. The organizations fighting for independence in Palestine are basically all considered to be terror organizations by Israel which means that the head quarters are constantly being bombed and their leaders, political or military, are being killed. It's difficult to remain organized under such conditions. It is also difficult to keep the calm among the Palestinian people when civilians are being killed on a regular basis (as in Israel by terrorists). Then we have the Israeli settlers who further provoke the Palestinians by building new communities on Palestinian ground.

I come to think of the African states that gained their independence in the 1960's. They had been colonized for centuries by Europeans and hadn't been allowed to take part in the organization of their countries in any way. The Africans had no knowledge or education on how to run a modern, industrial state, which was what the Europeans had turned them into. When the colonizers suddenly left they stood their without a clue and in the hands of the European and American companies who in reality owned the natural resources in these African countries. And the rest is history and present, just take a look at the shape that the formerly colonized Africa is in now. Corruption, poverty, debt, starvation and AIDS.

In Palestine the occupation has not yet even ended. Neighbouring arab states do their best to exploit the Palestinians for their own benifit. Israel strike unproportionally hard on suspected terrorists, killing a large number of civilians on the way. Hamas refuse to negotiate with Israel and accept a two state solution, something that Fatah's worked very hard for. Palestinians fight among each other. I don't think the Palestinians in general wanted Hamas to start this, I don't understand what you mean by saying that Hamas started this in the first place. If you mean the kidnappings I thought it was another militant organization (Islamic Jihad I think I recall it was) that took the responsibility for that. And Israel take that as an opportunity to blame Hamas, the governing party, for it all since Hamas is, as Israel claim, not doing what they should to control the terrorists within their territory (and they probably aren't either). In the same way Israel blame the state of Lebanon for the Hezbollah attacks. In short, the extremists set the agenda, Israel goes along witht that agenda, and the people do the suffering. Now Israel claim that the rockets launched by Hezbollah are Iran made, thus making Iran out to be taking an active part in the aggressions towards Israel.

Things have gone way out of proportion. The thing is, I am absolutely sure this is a deliberate plan carefully worked out by Israel. It reminds me of Bush's "Either you're with us or against us" tacticts in the wake of 9-11 and I think it's purpose is 1) to show the Israeli people that this fairly untested Israeli administration can play it rough, and, 2) to force the world to make a stand. As horrible as it sounds, I think it is mostly a game for the TV cameras and the News shows. It's a demonstration of power. While the Israeli government repeatedly claim that they do not, on any circumstances, negotiate with terrorists, there are regular indications of talks between Israel and various enemy groups going on. I think Israel is trying to push Lebanon to drive Hezbollah out, something that the Lebanese government fear will lead to another bloody civil war in the country. Israel is showing the world, and the arab world in particular, what they are capable of and how far they are willing to go to stop the attacks on their country. The question is, what will the consequences be? Quite frankly, I think Israel will succeed with their tactics. I think they can go very far, within certain limits, in their military attacks without upsetting surrounding arab countries enough them to engage in a full scale war in the region. Especially with USA being in Iraq. Big Brother is watching. In the longrun, though, it's just another campaign of violence, acts put on top of that mountain that threatens to crush the peace process forever.

i'm very upset by this and i don't want to get involved in an argument....so i'll just say this...once again, an open agression towards another country will go unpunished. why? because international law only applies to bull**** countires like Croatia. America is run by a powerful jewish lobby, and that's why Israel gets away with blatant violations of the international law time and time again....i see no other reason why America would protect them so vehemently...
my heart goes out to the lebanese people...and for the palestinians whos plight is being overlooked once again....
i hate international politics, i hate any wrong that goes unpunished, i hate injustice commited by the powerful and untouchable nations....

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I personally believe it's not possible for Palestine to ever become completely organized. The only reason I come to this conclusion is due to the fact that the majority of them are Muslims. Within Islam we see the division amongst Shiites and Sunnis. This isn't just like any other division amongst a religion. For example the one we see in Christianity. All is fare and well NOW at least. We can all date back to the days where the protestant movement was occuring. We all know of the tales of the Queen Elizabeth and Queen Mary. It's easy to say the same tale entices it's way into the world of Islam. Where Shiites believe in a line of teachings of Mohammad and his descendents as to where the Sunnis expose it. We've seen this in Iraq. With an unstable and particulary bias leader (Saddam) we saw the destruction of a group of people (the Kurds being the primitive target). The only reason we see any unifcation amongst Palestine is because of it's eager quest to gain control of Jerusalem and other bounding territories. I believe if they did in fact gain control, their instability would just lead them to kill one another off.

It's easy to come back to me and say "they don't fight amongst themsleves that much." But let's be completely honest with ourselves. This fight has lasted for centuries. It has gotten in the way of Muslim civilization itself. Instead of putting their heads together and ridding of the sect, we watch as they unite for one common belief that would put a smile on their face for one second, and then afters (I believe anyways) they would start another war. Don't get me wrong. I am not saying that Islam or Muslims are all about starting wars and ending lifes. Nothing along those lines. What I'm trying to say is that they need to unite for a true purpose. But what I believe a true purpose is different from what they take one to be.


Can Islam reform? Can Islam reunite? I doubt it. The practices and cultures of every individual country along with the sour mix of politics won't allow it. What's that mean? War in the Middle East until the dying day.

I hate the tactics that the Palestines use. They're awful. Market bombings. And let's be honest with ourselves. All of you say "Don't judge a book by it's cover. One terrorist shouldn't identify an entire country." Well guess what? When it comes to emotions, we overlook these ideaolgies and find ourselves pointing fingers in the direction it came from. That's all Israel can do. A terrorist will not mark him or herself with the colors of their country. They'll blend in just like the rest. Whos is who is a lot harder when Israel has no idea who they're actually looking for.

Every war has been like this. Innocent lives have been taken since day one. Picking on Israel for retaliating when it's been LITERALLY been pushed into the corner by the Muslim world doesn't seem fair by any account.

I think Chris explains it nicely. How many times has Israel, and Jews primarily, been on the end of shrewd and barbaric attacks? How many times have we seen Iran get up and defy the existence of the Holocaust or provoking other countries to join and to wipe Israel off the map? No country would ever take this. If these words were shouted at America from a distance each and every one of the memebrs on this board that lived in America would call for action. Everybody knows that lenghts that the Muslims have gone to show their fight for their land and their beliefs. It sadly involves the death of many others. But in the end what can you do?

I've got no heart for this blameless/blame-full mess either mate. Not at the mo. Kudos to those who still care to keep score tho.

Forget the US-run-by-sneaky-jews thing tho. Aside from the Evangelicals probably having more clout on the lobbying front, it seems a lot more likely that Israel's ability to be a 'proxy army' for the US in the Middle-East is what really drives all the political protection and lavish aid.

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i'm not following. a proxy army in what respect? i haven't seen them do anything but kill palestinians, syrians and the lebanese...all three countries are fairly irrelevant as far as the US goes....how does arming Israel benefit the US?

mister, you're so full of it i don't even know where to start....saying that the palestinians couldn't form a state because they MIGHT end up killing each other because of differences in religion has no basys in facts. how do you explain the fact that so many other muslim countries function normally? suddenly Iraq is the prime example of what goes on in every muslim country?
you hate the tactics the palestinians use? why? because killing houndreds of people with misles, tanks and guns instead of straping a bomb to a person and blowing up a bus is more humane?
poor Israel is just defending themselves....f*ck the palestinians and their rights...screw the fact that they woke up one day and their country had been given away to another nation....oh well...sh*t happens eh? move on with your lives you say....incredible...

Well, there's gotta be some explanation for it ...And the chances are it's geopolitical rather than religious/ideological.

I think the core benefit the US derives is:

Having the ability to make threats to anyone in airstrike/rocket/nuking distance from Israel. That includes oil-producing nations etc.

There may be a further benefit in keeping the Muslim nations fractured, yet focused on Israel (rather than the US, in 'facts on the grounds' terms). Whether or not this policy has been deliberately pursued i'm not sure.

[NB - if you don't believe that Israel can have a fracturing effect on its muslim-neighbours, as much as a bonding one, look at how many average Lebanese people have responded to recent events. They practically blame the Palestinians for dragging them into it, alongside Hezbolla. They're no fans of the steaming pile of human tragedy that persists there, any more than those outside the region. They certainly ain't rushing to be martyrs]

Oh dear oh dear. A couple of years of watching CNN and suddenly you know all?

Take a leaf out of the Catholic/Protestant clashes in Ireland/UK mate (a more a minor example, i'll grant you). Give it a few hundred years and it can be sorted out. People will get tired of being a spiritual and physical meatgrinder for kids.

But in the meantime, don't forget to take into account the shattered, and frequently externally-controlled, infrastructure which the Palestinians live within. It's hard to get your s**t together when your s**t can turn up in your next meal. (I exaggerate slightly, but you get the picture ). You can't lay all the woes at religion's door. (Much as i'd love to ).

Last time i checked, the scores were at least even on shrewedness and resultant barbarity.

Currently you seem to be advocating wiping Iran off the map coz it's thrown some words around (including the unjustifiable Holocaust-denial stuff, granted). Not enough for a pre-emptive strike tho is it mate. [Don't worry, i'm sure some more concrete-bunkered reasons will emerge at some point ]

Until then - concerning things Israel-Palestine-ish - just reflect on Piddz's history-reminder post. Both sides have gone to great lengths to get what they want. Both sides face significant advantages and disadvantages. Both sides are relatively ****ed.

But feel free to advocate dropping more bombs on them, if you want.

Are you muslim?

I would bet my life on it that you know nothing about islam.

Everything you just wrote once again is shining out of my monitor as pure ignorance. The split between Shiite and Sunni is more minute than the split between any christian faith. In fact, when you ask either sect what religion they are they don't say "sunni" or "shiite" they say "muslim". It IS one religion.

"israel being pushed into a corner" yea man, stones being thrown at tanks is really pushing a country to the brink of their tolerance level. Where do you get your ideas?

Also, your claim that muslims have fought between themselves is not void of truth. You're right, there have been wars between the muslims in the past.

But the muslim wars were never ever even close to the size and scale of any other religious war caued by any other religion.

Who crucified jesus?
Who forced the prophet muhammed out of his home city?

Who created the spanish inquistion?
Why is bloody mary called bloody mary?
Why were women living under christian rule almost cease to exist in the dark ages?

How come every country occupied by the muslims in 600 and beyond go on to flourish and to become economically stable and have a flourishing society?


Don't lecture me on muslim history, its a cleaner slate than the history of most other religions and civilizations...especially the christian and jewish religions.



I really don't think this war has anything to do with religion. Its pretty obvious that most muslims dont like jews...but the reason for this is Israel. I know many muslims who have best friends who are jewish...but if they ever saw an Israeli jew they would have a fit.

You keep missing the big issue here...it has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with nationalism.

good news however, my mom and sis just made it back from syria.

Nah, bollocks Eq. Godsend was talking out of his orifice, but all the religions you mentioned have had renaissances and bloody periods in equal measure, at the end of the day. And today as well.

What's going on does have a religious component, as much as it's about canny power movements.

That, at least, is pure-good

And on top of everything...

We're all biased

i don't agree, like i said, in every situation when the U.S. has been interested in an intervention, they have done so without any help from the Israelis, which makes Israel's fighing power irrelevant. Besides, the only major oil producing countries that are causing problems are Iraq and Iran, Iraq has been dealt with, Iran is too powerful for an intervention. Israel is too small of a nation to put the fear of God in the arab nations....even with all the weaponry they have, what stopps the surrounding arab nations from launching a full blown attack is the certainty of America's intervention....

you can also look at it this way, if it wasn't for Israel, the U.S. would have much less problems in the middle east, Iran included, and my guess is that there would be much less hate towards americans in the rest of the world too....

highly doubtful. the hate towards Israelis is very much linked with the hate towards it's biggest protector , the U.S.