War in the Middle East

Its time to start up the old politics thread. I know im venturing into dangerous territory here...middle east politics have been the cause of my bannings every single time here because i display a great deal of hatred for israel..so I'll try to curb my language...but i want everyone's responses here, lets get some debate going and some heated debate at that.

I extremely [INSERT ANY WORD RELATED TO DISLIKE] the Israeli government. Once again i find their disproportionate actions inhumane. Let me clarify, 2 dead israelis....250 dead lebanese.

Need more?

2 detained israeli soldiers.....9,000 detained ,lebenese women, children, and soldiers.

Last time I checked the arabs bleed red blood too.

My views are not biased or propagated. I have access to 14 international news channels...INCLUDING hezbollah tv and al jazeera. I have the advantage of speaking arabic english and french. And I'm an avid reader of news papers in all three languages. No opinion goes unread by me.

Furthermore I find it even more disgusting that the 10 countries in the UN all agreed in favor of ordering israel to stop its aggressive actions..and guess what country excercised its veto option? Thats right, the US.

The continued involvement of the US in letting israel do what it wants in the middle east and handicapping all other countries form even having miltary capabilities is angering me tremendously.

I'm not going to debate about whether or not hezbollah are terrorists or freedom fighters...but in my opinion any group that attacks solely miltary targets is not a terrorist organization.

What I will debate is the fact that the bombing of beirut's international airport has a NOTHING to do with hezbollah. The israeli government is trying to isolate lebenon land, sea, and air. My mother and sister are currently vacationing in Syria. I dearly hope they make it back soon (they leave there in 3 days) but as soon as they leave, I would be excited about the prospect of Syria,Iran,Egypt,Jordan, and by defualt hezbollah putting major diplomatic, military and economic pressure on israel to not only back off but to seriously begin a change in the middle east.

For the US the involvement of Iran would be the worst thing ever because most of the US's oil comes from this region. I wonder if the US will ever take miltary action to protect its oil interests..even if it means military action against israel.

This is a serious problem.

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Agreed, on all points.

Israel's "they started it" justification is ludicrous. Their response is a response to a response and so on, but this response is escalated out of all proportion and scope: attacking malls and other civilian targets is the act of a terrorist organization, not a legitimate government. I can't comprehend Bush's definition of terrorism, any more, if he ever had one in the first place. It seems to apply to whoever is convenient at the time, and woe be unto anyone who notices that in the world community. His demands that the rest of the world get behind (us) Israel on this are positively insane.

That said, have a great weekend folks! I'm headed to Washington DC for the weekend. :/

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Review: Cabin in the Woods 8/10

As in every major confrontation, there is a lot going on behind the scenes that most of us will never know about. Does that justify the current situation? No, of course not, unless there is something very enlightening that the world has been left in the dark about. It has been a "walking on eggshell" situation for decades in this region and it almost seems like Someone is pushing all the right buttons so they can achieve some Dogmatic goal. Certainly the U.S. is already on bad terms with Iran so will this lead to the last "button" that needs to be pushed to create a spiraling situation? I for one think any country has the right to defend itself against attack. I can honestly say that I do not think the U.S. should become involved militaily, politically or otherwise in the next few days. Too bad it is already past that point. The veto was a mistake I think even if I do agree with it. Sometimes it is better to let the hand be played out instead of flipping the table over.


On side note: for those of you who were not aware when I was in the first Desert Storm Saddam chucked a few scuds into Israel. The following day my unit and many others who were closest to Bagdad at that point were put on alert for a nuclear strike that would come from Israel. I will tell you this, the radio chatter that was going on that I overheard was very scary, they came very close to launching. I hope they can refrain now as they did then.

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“The gladdest moment in human life, methinks, is a departure into unknown lands.” – Sir Richard Burton

Well, firing off a nuke would be one way for Israel to act even more disproportionately.

Like you say, there's bound to be other games being played behind the scenes - coz this level of retaliation for two kidnapped soldiers (initially) is ludicrous.

*EDIT* One obvious undercurrent would be that the US is actively seeking a scenario in which they can take on Iran. (Probably in the form of some 'hit-and-run' style actions, while staying ensconsed in Iraq). That might be do-able amongst a background of Israeli-expansionism/clashes etc - or as a Israeli-defending 'policy' if the whole region looks like it's gonna jump in.

Can't see where that would get anyone tho. If anything it'd just convince waverers to get behind Ahmadinejad and co - and get the rest of the 'Arab' nations even more fired up than before. (Perhaps giving Israel an excuse to nuke one of them? Yay...)

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I was wondering who here considers Hezbollah (or Hizbullah) a terroist group? Certainly I would like to know why or why not you think how you do about this. I know there is two or maybe even three factions depending on who you ask, the civilian wing and then the rest. For the sake of argument lets say the civilian wing is not represented in this debate as the leadership appears to be almost totally different from the other wing(s). So I ask you are they terrorists or not?

That word has become so over-used as to become meaningless.

I don't know enough, but they don't seem like particularly lovely people. But neither do any of the militarised 'wings' that flap around that region. (Israel included, of course).

I agree somewhat, but lets stick to a common sense approach. BTW I am more curious what others think and I am having a tough time deciding myself what to think about the group that is why I asked. Certainly the media, most of it anyway, says they are terroists, but we all know not to totally rely on that.

If TARGETING civilians and killing 3,000 of them doesn't make you a terrorist group, I don't know what does.

Say what you will about Israel's actions... they don't go out of their way to kill the innocent. They are wreckless, messy, and hasty, yes. They have killed several innocent people in their attacks on installations and strategic points.

But do they target the innocent?

Lebanon and the Palestinian territories are little more than slaves to Iran's will at this point.

Has the Israeli government ever stated that it wanted all Muslims killed? Does it teach that Muslims are the enemy? Does it vow to destroy the Lebanese, Palestinians, or Iranians? Does it go out of its way to displace the Palestinians when it could have done so SEVERAL DECADES AGO?

No.

Has Iran ever vowed to destroy Israel? Are Palestinians taught that all Jews are evil?

If you don't know the answers to those questions, you need to do a little more research before posting threads such as these.

No one is inculpable in acts of war. This is not a sports match. You don't GET to root for teams here. There is immense corruption on all sides.

But the one thing--the LEAST you can acknowledge--is that it is in Israel's power to settle this whole thing right now with a terrible force, and they do not. And they HAVE NOT for decades. No matter how poor their tactics, that is restraint, my friends. That is one huge ****ing gob of restraint.

Their citizens are all targets. All the time. Their religion is a target.

You cannot say that for the surrounding territories, sorry to inform you.

You are WRONG on all accounts. Captial letters. Hezbollah has NEVER targeted civilians, show me one CREDIBLE source that says they have purposely killed innocent israeli civilians.

The next part of your arguement was the most hypocritic statement ever you said yourself israel's responses are "wreckless, hasty, and messy". That is even an understatement, the number of innocent civilians killed by the israelis is 100 (not an exageration, this is a real number) times greater than the amount of civilians killed by hezbollah in the last 10 years combined.

No my friend, I can honestly sit here and legitimately argue that the israeli government is a terrorist organization itself, and that every cabinet member involved in the delivery of death and destruction should be tried as war criminals.

I hear you yelling from the back..."there are palestinian leaders who should be tried for not wanting peace either". Was Patrick Henry a terrorist? Last time I checked he run multiple operations against the british in guerrella like fashion and he used every means possible to win independence for america. But when a palestinian does the same its terrorism? Get out of here, this is clearly a war of freedom. It is the result of a group so oppressed in society, so put down and humiliated, that they are backed into a corner where they cannot escape, their last options are voilence. I always think of it like getting tickeled, for a while you tolerate it, but after that it gets annoying, and you can't stand it anymore and involuntarily you became aggressive to get the other person off of you. You would be surprised what love of country can do for you.
And by the way, heres why Israel doesn't just eradicate the entire middle east right away...its not a matter of restraint. Its a matter of diplomatic sensitivity. Israel is not the most lvoed country in the world, and eliminating a whole race of people all at once would not be in their best interests, in fact it would probably destroy their country. So they operate on small scale gradual levels of extermination of palestinians.

P.S. no government is going to openly declare war on one sect or religion...but that doesn't mean it isnt happening. You are using the media as your number one source....either vary your sources or find different kinds, because your information is on every basic level incorrect.


Sorry if I've been harsh, looking forward to your rebuttle.

Never targeted civilians? Where do you think those rockets have been going? Towards the Israeli government? In Haifa? Are you ****ting me? Do you even KNOW what the hell has been going on? Do you understand the geography of Israel? If Hezbollah isn't targeting civilians even as we speak, then they have pretty ****ty aim, I'll tell you that, because that's whom they're hitting.

These surrounding nations are committed to the destruction of Israel and its people. Israel is committed to no such thing, except for the proactive defense of its people. I will allow you the greater numbers, but I have already spoken as to the "messy" part. You will find no such example, however, of Israel targetting civilians. Never happened. Under ANY circumstance. On the other hand, the Palestinians institute a "military force" that is often employing civilians and, like cowards, use civilian families to mask their operations. How is that oppression? It's oppression of the people, BY the people. Israel even HELPS to run the Palestinian economy. Israel funds Palestinian artistic projects that often decry Israel! Are you kidding me? That's oppression? Many Palestinian Arabs live in Israel and, contrary to popular belief, are allowed seats in the friggin' Israeli government!

Palestinians are only IN that area because none of the surrounding Arab territories would have them. Look that up. Google it, Wikipedia it. Pick up an encyclopedia. Spend some time with the research. And it was not Israel that took that land, but the European nations.

You want a real crime? The stubborn and insanely corrupt Palestinian government refused a 1948 UN peace accord that would have helped them with all of this so-called "oppression." They did so again in the 1990s. Shooting themselves in the foot, perhaps?

I'm sorry if this sounds like a blanket defense of Israel. They deserve no such defense. Their idiotic maneuvers have in many ways gotten them into this situation, including the air strike from over a month ago (the attack for which the Israeli PM offered medical support for the injured family... something that has NEVER been offered to any Israeli civilian).

But have the guts to call a spade a spade. I don't care how many networks you watch or how many statistics you *think* you know (none of which you have bothered to verify with links or citations). Rooting against Israel like they're the New York Yankees only makes you look myopic and childish. The Palestinians are hardly guiltless when it comes to warfare. You make them sound like African Americans in the '60s civil rights campaign. A better comparison would be the Pakistanis.

What this all boils down to is a fight for land rights. It's not about pride or freedom or any of that propagandist **** that the Israelis AND Palestinians would have you believe. It's about two essentially corrupt governments trying to eek out as much land as possible while saving face in the international community. You'd be completely naive to think that this is some lopsided civil rights issue. No one deserves to "win" this dispute.

Personally, I root for no one in this debacle. No one is a demon, no one is a saint. The Palestinians aren't oppressed in the sense that you are employing, but they are certainly not living the high-life. I can understand the sense of desperation, but they need only look so far as their corrupt parties in charge. Hamas directs civilian aid, but they also use their social services to spread antisemitic propaganda that keeps the nations at war. Why would they want that? Because they wouldn't be friggin' HAMAS without the jihad. Fatah is concerned with nothing more than the rich staying rich. By all means, find proof of Israel going out of their way to keep the Palestinian territories impoverished. I dare you. I triple, quadruple, however many times to the nth degree, dare you. They assist the Palestinians with economic transfers, humanitarian aid, and have even given up land for the sake of peace. When have the Palestinians done any of that? When?

There is no faultless party here. But there is certainly a party MORE at fault.

And I don't root for anyone's destruction, as you seem to do with regard to Israel. I root for peace, which unfortunately seems like a dream at this rate.

Btw, I also wanted to say that many of the things you and I are currently discussing in this thread have little to do with the IMMEDIATE conflict.

I will certainly agree with the assessment that Israel's reaction to the recent hostilities has been disproportionate to the offense, but I will also be the first to recognize that Iran has fed fuel into this fire and that NO side in this battle has been able to show the least bit of restraint.

Steps 1 through oh 6 or 7 are already past and some of em we are all unprivvy to.

Step 8: Create some "the straw that broke the camels back" scenario....ergo the kidnapping of two soldiers.

Step 9: Retaliation in an inprecedented manner.

Step 10: Opps, we accedentily hit a target we did not mean to.


Step 11: If A does not happen then B will happen and you will be sorry.

Step 12: B happens, because A supporters wanted it to.

Step 13: The U.S. steps in (big step)

Step 14: Iran retaliates

Step 15: The U.S. and Israel retaliates

Step 16: China balks

Step 17: N. Korea does something stupid

Step 18: Japan retaliates

Step 19: Russia acts

Step 20: WWIII


Certainly I hope I am wrong, but I hope we in the U.S. have a new president before it gets this far and the steps are intterupted. I voted for Bush and I stand by him, but the current administration is an ingredient for WWII, that is not an insult, but a fact, I do not want this to happen..................................Just my thoughts Could happen?

"North Korea does something stupid" Christ. If that's one of the stepping-stones on the crazy-paving to the apocalypse, we're in real trouble. Kim does three stupid things before breakfast.

Israel and Palestine is one of those areas I've gone numb. I was one rabidly pro-Palestinian, but after reading so much about the conflict it's pretty clear that there's too much blood on the hands of both parties for things to be settled easily. Even if Israel complied with Palestine (everything short of totally disappearing) there'd still be enough bitterness on both sides to respark the whole affair within a generation. I really don't know what to think anymore, I just cross my fingers and hope someone smarter than me can sort it all out before Israel nukes something.

March 17th, 1992: Hezbollah-supported group "Islamic Jihad" crashes a pickup truck into the Israeli embassy in Bueos Aires, destorying said embassy, a church, and a school nearby. 29 people are killed. A quick search returns numerous sources.

More recently, Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah stated: "Our homes will not be the only ones to be destroyed, our children will not be the only ones to die." Does that sound like someone concerned with military targets to you? Because it doesn't to me.

I know I've said this before, but my favorite general synopsis of the situation goes like this: if Palestine put down their weapons tomorrow, there would be peace with Israel. If Israel put down their weapons tomorrow, there would be no more Israel. They are surrounded by numerous (and relentless) enemies who have made it repeatedly clear that they want them wiped from the face of the earth. What have they done to deserve to be under constant (and I mean constant) attack for nearly 60 years? And what exactly do you expect them to do when attacked?

If you're going to demand sources for other people's claims, you'll certainly have to source claims like this.


But Patrick Henry really didn't have any choice. The British never reached out to America and offered them peaceable solutions that granted them genuine independence the way Israel has.


They wouldn't have to "eradicate the entire Middle East." They could certainly wreak a lot more havoc than they ever do, however. And yes, that absolutely should be to their credit. They've been attacked constantly for over half a century, and have yet to lay waste to their enemies in the way they are capable of. Enemies who, if they had that same capability, almost certainly would have employed it by now.

I am keeping this issue limited to the geographical regions of the middle east. It is well noted that the Hezbollah you sourced is a different sect, one not officially recognized by hezbollah.

It sounds like someone saying "you hurt my family, and ill hurt yours" to me it sounds like what every human being would do.

When I said Hezbollah only targeted military targets i mean just that. Although the rocket into the apartment buildings is an exception, hezbollah claims it was not an accurate shot. It happens (inaccurate shots that is) afterall it happens to israeli 95% to 100% of the time.

I think nassrali's threat is firm, ferocious, aggressive, barbaric and nothing short of the very spark that IMHO is needed to begin showing israel that force will not solve its problems.

That is ridiculous. Why make the Palestinians put down their weapons when it was they who in 1948 where invaded by shiploads of zionists. you're right though, if the Palestinians put down their weapons and played dead, there would be peace because Israel would have everything it wants and the palestinians would have nothing. That is ridiculous, if Patrick Henry put down his weapons there would have been peace, and the US would be a british colony for much longer. Show me ONE oppressed group of people in the history of the world who have won their freedom by playing dead. None.


True.
Israel has been relentlessly attacked for 60 years because it has relentlessly occupied lands that do not belong to it for 60 years. The geographical area you know as Israel is really Palestine. Look it up on any map made before 1948. Some maps (not just from arab countries) still say Palestine. This is historically and in the modern world been a muslim arabic country called palestine. Its name change to Israel and subsequent banning of people who have lived there for centuries has only been a problem for 60 years. 60 years is nothing in the history books.


Sure. Where do I start.

The following article demonstrates the bias of the media in hiding killings, and how the numbers are not accurate. http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article4924.shtml

In this link you'll find a graph detailing the cumultive deaths of Israeli's and of Palestinians. This graph only goes up to 2002. http://www.ict.org.il/articles/artic...?articleid=439


HOWEVER the best source is one we can all recognize. This link from Wikipedia details the deaths of the palestinians vs the israeli's down to exactly how they died.

Heres a quick summary:
ISRAELI'S KILLED:
* Children : 113
* Women : 305
* Men : 603
* Settlers : 213
* Soldiers : 322
PALESTINIANS KILLED:
* Children: 892
* Women : 273
* Men : 3044

notice the israeli deaths are mostly soldier and men deaths. Whereas Palestinian children are near 1,000. ONE THOUSAND DEAD KIDS. I'm pretty sure when you have 1,000 dead kids you can assume that one side is disproportionate to the other. I don't care who did what the death of 1,000 innocent children has no excuse. P.S. children are defined as under 16 and non combatant. All combatant "kids" are grouped with the men.

As I recall the Israeli's aren't reaching out to the Palestinians offering them a peaceful solution. "roll over and play dead" does not count as a peaceful solution. Show me one peace treaty proposed by israel that doesn't put the Palestinians at a major disadvantage, economically, politically, nationally, morally,and militarly.


So your arguement is "They could have eradicated the aplestinians long ago but they haven't....so they must be doing the right thing" I'm pretty sure britain could have eradicated every country it ever took control over. I'm pretty sure the french could have eradicated syria when they had it. I'm pretty sure the romans could have eradicate all of their terroritories. There is a reason why you don't eradicate whole groups of people these days and it has nothing to do with your love for them. If israel eradicated the palestinians in one fell swoop, it would be ousted as a sovreign nation and they would no longer exist as a country. Come now Chris, just because you have the power to destroy someone it doesnt make you benevolent when you don't.

Unless everything I have read and researched is wrong (and granted it may be) the Hezbollah "sect" that is involved in the current firefight is certainly terrorists in every sense of the word. I am open minded to be sure but I also personally despise terroists even in the mildest definition of the word, this is not mild and neither is their history.

Heh, true, but you know what I mean here ...Firing missiles directly at Japan is my meaning...if that is not stupid what is?
BTW, this is something I got published long ago in an article for the AFN in Germany....16 years ago... with the exception of the two soldiers kidnapped part I posted pretty much word for word what I wrote then, I hope I am wrong and the first steps, if you are interested are not far off and one of them is a bit way off, but hey I was young.

Quick question, what are you going to do about it?

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"This is that human freedom, which all boast that they possess, and which consists solely in the fact, that men are conscious of their own desire, but are ignorant of the causes whereby that desire has been determined." -Baruch Spinoza

Do you honestly think it was just the TWO Israeli soldiers that were killed that led to this?

Sharon last year pushed for the evacuation of Israelis in the Gaza Strip. He had to take a minority of them by force.

Sharon had a lot of patience with Palestine and the Islamic world. He is not in a vegetable state. Others don't have his kind of patience.

I can't believe you're still playing the entire "well they were here first." 6 million Jews were exterminated and nobody could open their ******* arms and let them in? I personally believe religion is genetics and is pure crap. But that's not the issue. I can't erase religion out of the question because it is, ONCE AGAIN, the main reason this all occurs.

So what the **** is Israel to do? We can't hop into a time machine and go back into time can we? No. Face the facts. It's happened and we have to deal with it. Stop bringing history into this because every little world we type leads us into the future. In war there is no history. Just victory and defeat.

You're putting out numbers of civilians and militants that have been killed. Can you think about this for a second? That it's actually expected. Did you *actually* sit there and believe this would never happen?

I can't believe a debate on this topic is possible. Everybody saw this in their ******* crystal balls. This isn't the War on Iraq or Afghanistan or whatnot. This is history in the making. This is just another crusade that we're going to witness in this millenium and I doubt it'll die down anytime soon.

So what can we do? Try to figure out a way we can explain this carefully and slowly to our grandchildren.

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We're soldiers. Soldiers don't go to hell. It's war. Soldiers, they kill other soldiers. We're in a situation where everybody involved knows the stakes. And if you're gonna accept those stakes... You gotta do certain things. It's business, we're soldiers. We follow codes... Orders.

If history doesn't matter why explain anything to our grandchildren?

You're point is very crude my friend, you can't ignore history..ESPECIALLY when you are deciding what to do with the future.

Tell you what godsend im going to use your logic for a second..

Im going to demolish your house with TNT...but you cant be angry about it 10 minutes later because its history....instead you should just look into the future and think about rebuilding your house.


WRONG.

You have to take into account the history here..there are palestinians who still remember how they were kicked out of their homes and out of their neighborhoods to accomodate the incoming ad very violent jews. Try reading up on what the zionists used to do when they first got to Palestine. Maybe you'll see why so much hatred is directed at the Israelis.

You cannot achieve peace through violence. A?nd israel is still learning this 60 years later.