Girl Problem (cont.)
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Just hung up with her. It took a while to ask her but i did. And she didn't say much, she kept humming and saying "I feel alot better now" over and over again. So I kept making forward remarks and statements until she finally said, "He said we can't be in a relationship right now, it would have been nice if he would have forgiven me though, but I'm okay with it now" It took me a while to think about this, but basically that implies that she WANTED to get back together with him.....and he turned HER down. I had no idea that her intentions were to get back with him, but now hes rejected her.
Makes me so angry, this means the last few weeks or so she's spent with me...were also spent trying to win her Ex back.
Damnit. What now?
Makes me so angry, this means the last few weeks or so she's spent with me...were also spent trying to win her Ex back.
Damnit. What now?
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I would ask her if those were in fact her intentions. If possible, just sit down with her and have a genuine conversation about it. If you need it, write down questions beforehand, of everything that you want to know in order to clear your thoughts. The worst thing to do is leave with even more questions. You have the right to be forceful about all of this.
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We just had a conversation on msn about this. Anyone wishing to analyze the situation further would be more than welcome to...I'll send the convo.
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Alrighty, I'm in late on this ...
I'll do it in reverse - would you feel weird posting the convo here? You can PM it to me if you like, although I recognize we don't know each other well and I ain't been around much for a long while. No worries either way.
... I am always willing to discuss these things with people because I've been through a lotta sick sh|t starting from childhood and have made it a life mission to remove toxic relationships and unhealthy human being situations from my life and to help others figure out how to do the same for themselves. To identify toxic situations and be real with myself AND the other person if things are bad/wrong/confused/unhappy. To search for healthier ways to be happy, even if those healthy ways seem really, really hard. You deserve to be happy, and if you're shooting yourself in your own foot then you should see what you're doing and try to trash the gun.
No person should suffer needlessly in caring for another person due to the other person's actions. It's one thing if the other person doesn't know what they're doing to you, it's another if they do. You have to take stock, evaluate their actions, for they speak louder than words, and evaluate your own actions. These actions tell tell you how you really feel. We get easily caught up in what we think about, what we think about them, what we think they're thinking ... we make excuses, bend truths, blind ourselves, mislead ourselves - and them. It only hurts us in the end, and we can avoid it if we own up and face results.
That being said ...
...
You only paraphrased your phone convo so I could not tell if those were your lady's exact words. The sense I got (although incomplete) does not concretely confirm that she was actively trying to get back with him while being with you. They imply she wanted forgiveness and didn't get it, and he told her they couldn't be in a relationship.
That doesn't mean she asked if she could be, and that doesn't mean she wanted to be. Note, those are two very different things. Someone said women are confused - we can be, unfortunately. Men can be too.
Basically when two people make you feel good, you don't want to lose the two people and end up feeling crappy not wanting to actively drop one, the other, or both. Out of guilt, the desire not to be the bad guy, the desire to prove she can be a good girlfriend (ie, overcompensate for her crime) she could have asked him to try again.
Or, she could have said nothing, having no decision either way, and if he'd said, let's work at this, she would have, out of no active effort on her part (ie, it's comfortable, it's 7 years invested, he says let's try, so she says, okay. so what's easier, leaving, or staying to try?)
She could have also wanted to be in the relationship *conditionally.* Ie, the conditions existing that caused her to stray have to change. Ie, she wants the relationship to exist in a totally new way and if it won't improve, have you instead. This means (and it happens all the time) - that if he shapes up, he proves the better specimen and she would choose him over you. IF he shapes up. So if he'd said, i'll shape up, you shape up, let's work it out - she'd have gone ahead and left you.
He also could have basically just arrived to break up with her officially, and she was expecting it, and wanted forgiveness for the thing that caused the break up, but had no desire or intention of trying to be with him again.
She could have definitely wanted him back and was willing to drop you if he said yes. She could have definitely not wanted him back and was willing to drop him for you and wanted an official closing to the relationship.
Whatever. She could have felt 13 variations on the above - and still not been sure what she wanted or was going to end up doing.
Why? You're circling around it and thinking you can convince her - but she's not convinced either way. Both males had to do something to solidify her romantic future. But SHE wasn't capable of doing it herself. You thought you had to convince her and try to keep her.
Her man showed up and didn't bother trying. Why? He might have known what others in this thread are trying to tell you
... if you ask yourself HOW to keep her, you already lost her. Or, glass half full (honestly, it is): She already left you.
And if you ask yourself HOW to keep her, that doesn't automatically assume she is worth trying to keep. I'm not saying she isn't worth keeping, i'm just saying, just because you're scared to lose her doesn't mean she shouldn't be lost. That sounds harsh but we often miss the things we can't have because we have a sense of "i'm not finished with it yet and i want it now". we're thinking, i didn't get to read the book or get very far and it feels so right and i think the plot will be fantastic and now that i can't finish it i am bereft and betrayed and incomplete and ...
that book could end badly. that book ran away and went back to the library. should you chase it down and try to keep it, just because you didn't finish it? or let it be and realize there are other books ... fish ... in the sea, and if it is SO fricken hard to keep it, that means it's lost and maybe it isn't yours to keep. not in the sense of she belongs to another man, but in your lives, she's just not yours to have. simple as that. she's not trying hard enough, her man isn't, and you aren't. in the end, maybe it's best if you just don't try NOW after the fact.
Now, why her leaving you could be a good thing ... She already left you, and that's a good thing, this book going back to the library.
The glass is half full because you should not be expending your humanity, your heart, your faith, your love, on a person who doesn't know what she wants. Seriously. You have all that love inside you and there is no reason on earth it should ever be spent on someone who doesn't know d@mn good and well they want to be with you, and is willing to be "a man" about it, own up, and handle it gracefully.
Ie, you should *never have to read a book you can't finish*. If you can help it any way. Yeah she put the mojo on you. Yeah, sometimes life's unfair and takes things away from you and it's harsh. But in the end, she should not have tried to be with someone who couldn't have her 100%, and that goes for you AND her original man. It was selfish and cruel of her to do that toyou.
She doesn't see it that way, and you don't, but it's the truth. People think just because they don't actively plot crimes against others they're not doing bad evil things to those they care about. They don't think they're being bad, selfish, mean, or cruel.
Well, they are. Just because you weren't looking when you walked on my toes with spike heels doesn't mean you didn't break all my piggly wigglies. I have met so many people like this who take advantage of others or pretend to be oblivious and then one day someone goes "wake the f*ck up you sonofab*tch and stop being a sh|t" and they go, "i wasn't being a sh|t i had no idea i was hurting you!"
we are always responsible for how we treat others and if we refuse to acknowledge how we treat others, that's our fault, not theirs. she is responsible for how she treated you and her other man.
and you're responsible for how you treated her man via her.
What she should have done was called her man within days of kissing you, and told him she met someone and is not sure about their future. What she should have done was told you, we have to stop this because I'll hurt both of you if we keep on. What she should have done was stopped BEING SELFISH and put a halt to letting you stroke her ego and avoiding facing up to the man miles away. she should have faced him first, closed it down, took some time, then meandered around to trying things out with you if it still felt right to both of you.
..........
analysis compared to others - I agree with the amalgam of what shirble, sedai, and gummo said.
Eq, you began the read with:
And Chris hit it right on the head:
Yes, and it sounds like you weren't with her for very long in this situation, either.
Ah Chris, that's what friends are for. We got through it, and we still love ya.
..... the future ....
so, when others say be youself, it's true. don't chase her. no one should be chasing or getting chased. that's a sign someone doesn't want you as much as you want (or think you want) them. that's a sign it's too hard. when it's too hard, that doesn't automatically mean you fight harder, it means maybe it shouldn't happen to begin with.
you should both be running toward each other. instead, she's hemming and hawing on the phone, belittling the magnitude of her conversation with her ex and the obviousness of your desire to be with her.
she takes his calls when you're there but won't offer you the same courtesy. she doesn't reach out for you she lets you reach out for her. she dances around things and won't commit. she's vulnerable and confused and unsure and uncertain and ...
being selfish. she's not thinking "i feel so much i have to be with you and be honest with myself so I cut the ties and am taking the risks. "
she's not thinking about you and how she feels about you at all. she's thinking about herself. and how she feels.
it's totally her right to do that, its just a sign of where her priorities are. she is not even in a state right now to be in a relationship with you and be good to you on, as Chris described, a genuine foundation.
she may very well be a faker. by that i mean, she believes in faking it until something forces her to change. she faked her 7 year relationship long distance until you came along. she faked passivity with her ex until he said "i don't want this any more".
she avoids having to make the decisions, own up to them, claim what she wants, be honest about it, and be prepared to get yelled at or deal with her own actions and desires. she puts it on you, she puts it on him, but never on her.
selfish selfish, and i'm sorry, but if i'm going to be with a selfish person it better be the "i have to have you all to myself and no one else can have you" type of selfish. not the "i'm so confused and can't make a choice and there's all this pressure and i don't know what i want so wait there while I think about it" selfish.
you are a valuable person. your time, heart, and feelings are valuable.
she isn't treating them like they are. so you can take a hint from her ex. you don't have to cut her off altogether.
you can just say, "this is crap, i'm the other man, and i won't be treated like this. i have feelings for you, i'd like to try to be with you, but you had better clean your act up and decide what you want and be honest. i'm not going to try to convince you, i just refuse to invest my energy into a hole with no visible bottom."
hope this helps. yes, i write a lot. it's what i do. :P
I'll do it in reverse - would you feel weird posting the convo here? You can PM it to me if you like, although I recognize we don't know each other well and I ain't been around much for a long while. No worries either way.
... I am always willing to discuss these things with people because I've been through a lotta sick sh|t starting from childhood and have made it a life mission to remove toxic relationships and unhealthy human being situations from my life and to help others figure out how to do the same for themselves. To identify toxic situations and be real with myself AND the other person if things are bad/wrong/confused/unhappy. To search for healthier ways to be happy, even if those healthy ways seem really, really hard. You deserve to be happy, and if you're shooting yourself in your own foot then you should see what you're doing and try to trash the gun.
No person should suffer needlessly in caring for another person due to the other person's actions. It's one thing if the other person doesn't know what they're doing to you, it's another if they do. You have to take stock, evaluate their actions, for they speak louder than words, and evaluate your own actions. These actions tell tell you how you really feel. We get easily caught up in what we think about, what we think about them, what we think they're thinking ... we make excuses, bend truths, blind ourselves, mislead ourselves - and them. It only hurts us in the end, and we can avoid it if we own up and face results.
That being said ...
...
You only paraphrased your phone convo so I could not tell if those were your lady's exact words. The sense I got (although incomplete) does not concretely confirm that she was actively trying to get back with him while being with you. They imply she wanted forgiveness and didn't get it, and he told her they couldn't be in a relationship.
That doesn't mean she asked if she could be, and that doesn't mean she wanted to be. Note, those are two very different things. Someone said women are confused - we can be, unfortunately. Men can be too.
Basically when two people make you feel good, you don't want to lose the two people and end up feeling crappy not wanting to actively drop one, the other, or both. Out of guilt, the desire not to be the bad guy, the desire to prove she can be a good girlfriend (ie, overcompensate for her crime) she could have asked him to try again.
Or, she could have said nothing, having no decision either way, and if he'd said, let's work at this, she would have, out of no active effort on her part (ie, it's comfortable, it's 7 years invested, he says let's try, so she says, okay. so what's easier, leaving, or staying to try?)
She could have also wanted to be in the relationship *conditionally.* Ie, the conditions existing that caused her to stray have to change. Ie, she wants the relationship to exist in a totally new way and if it won't improve, have you instead. This means (and it happens all the time) - that if he shapes up, he proves the better specimen and she would choose him over you. IF he shapes up. So if he'd said, i'll shape up, you shape up, let's work it out - she'd have gone ahead and left you.
He also could have basically just arrived to break up with her officially, and she was expecting it, and wanted forgiveness for the thing that caused the break up, but had no desire or intention of trying to be with him again.
She could have definitely wanted him back and was willing to drop you if he said yes. She could have definitely not wanted him back and was willing to drop him for you and wanted an official closing to the relationship.
Whatever. She could have felt 13 variations on the above - and still not been sure what she wanted or was going to end up doing.
Why? You're circling around it and thinking you can convince her - but she's not convinced either way. Both males had to do something to solidify her romantic future. But SHE wasn't capable of doing it herself. You thought you had to convince her and try to keep her.
Her man showed up and didn't bother trying. Why? He might have known what others in this thread are trying to tell you
... if you ask yourself HOW to keep her, you already lost her. Or, glass half full (honestly, it is): She already left you.
And if you ask yourself HOW to keep her, that doesn't automatically assume she is worth trying to keep. I'm not saying she isn't worth keeping, i'm just saying, just because you're scared to lose her doesn't mean she shouldn't be lost. That sounds harsh but we often miss the things we can't have because we have a sense of "i'm not finished with it yet and i want it now". we're thinking, i didn't get to read the book or get very far and it feels so right and i think the plot will be fantastic and now that i can't finish it i am bereft and betrayed and incomplete and ...
that book could end badly. that book ran away and went back to the library. should you chase it down and try to keep it, just because you didn't finish it? or let it be and realize there are other books ... fish ... in the sea, and if it is SO fricken hard to keep it, that means it's lost and maybe it isn't yours to keep. not in the sense of she belongs to another man, but in your lives, she's just not yours to have. simple as that. she's not trying hard enough, her man isn't, and you aren't. in the end, maybe it's best if you just don't try NOW after the fact.
Now, why her leaving you could be a good thing ... She already left you, and that's a good thing, this book going back to the library.
The glass is half full because you should not be expending your humanity, your heart, your faith, your love, on a person who doesn't know what she wants. Seriously. You have all that love inside you and there is no reason on earth it should ever be spent on someone who doesn't know d@mn good and well they want to be with you, and is willing to be "a man" about it, own up, and handle it gracefully.
Ie, you should *never have to read a book you can't finish*. If you can help it any way. Yeah she put the mojo on you. Yeah, sometimes life's unfair and takes things away from you and it's harsh. But in the end, she should not have tried to be with someone who couldn't have her 100%, and that goes for you AND her original man. It was selfish and cruel of her to do that toyou.
She doesn't see it that way, and you don't, but it's the truth. People think just because they don't actively plot crimes against others they're not doing bad evil things to those they care about. They don't think they're being bad, selfish, mean, or cruel.
Well, they are. Just because you weren't looking when you walked on my toes with spike heels doesn't mean you didn't break all my piggly wigglies. I have met so many people like this who take advantage of others or pretend to be oblivious and then one day someone goes "wake the f*ck up you sonofab*tch and stop being a sh|t" and they go, "i wasn't being a sh|t i had no idea i was hurting you!"
we are always responsible for how we treat others and if we refuse to acknowledge how we treat others, that's our fault, not theirs. she is responsible for how she treated you and her other man.
and you're responsible for how you treated her man via her.
What she should have done was called her man within days of kissing you, and told him she met someone and is not sure about their future. What she should have done was told you, we have to stop this because I'll hurt both of you if we keep on. What she should have done was stopped BEING SELFISH and put a halt to letting you stroke her ego and avoiding facing up to the man miles away. she should have faced him first, closed it down, took some time, then meandered around to trying things out with you if it still felt right to both of you.
..........
analysis compared to others - I agree with the amalgam of what shirble, sedai, and gummo said.
Eq, you began the read with:
I'm looking for advice on what it is I should do to completely make her want me.
I know now, however, that once someone finds themselves asking that question, the relationship is probably already lost.
If you do, it seems to me that you end up giving yourself over to someone who does not realize you're doing so, does not appreciate the fact that you're doing so, doesn't feel as intensely towards you as you do them, or who may simply not be the person you think they are. You have to know and see someone for a long time, I think, before you can give them that kind of influence over you.
If you do, it seems to me that you end up giving yourself over to someone who does not realize you're doing so, does not appreciate the fact that you're doing so, doesn't feel as intensely towards you as you do them, or who may simply not be the person you think they are. You have to know and see someone for a long time, I think, before you can give them that kind of influence over you.
Chris:
I wish you nothing but the best. In the past, I've had numerous people, whose judgement I trusted entirely, warn me about things like this. And even when everything they said aligned perfectly with the suspicions I already had, I couldn't bring myself to listen to them. I had to learn the hard way. And I did. I hope you can avoid that, at least in this instance, but if not, well, I certainly won't be judging you.
I wish you nothing but the best. In the past, I've had numerous people, whose judgement I trusted entirely, warn me about things like this. And even when everything they said aligned perfectly with the suspicions I already had, I couldn't bring myself to listen to them. I had to learn the hard way. And I did. I hope you can avoid that, at least in this instance, but if not, well, I certainly won't be judging you.
..... the future ....
so, when others say be youself, it's true. don't chase her. no one should be chasing or getting chased. that's a sign someone doesn't want you as much as you want (or think you want) them. that's a sign it's too hard. when it's too hard, that doesn't automatically mean you fight harder, it means maybe it shouldn't happen to begin with.
you should both be running toward each other. instead, she's hemming and hawing on the phone, belittling the magnitude of her conversation with her ex and the obviousness of your desire to be with her.
she takes his calls when you're there but won't offer you the same courtesy. she doesn't reach out for you she lets you reach out for her. she dances around things and won't commit. she's vulnerable and confused and unsure and uncertain and ...
being selfish. she's not thinking "i feel so much i have to be with you and be honest with myself so I cut the ties and am taking the risks. "
she's not thinking about you and how she feels about you at all. she's thinking about herself. and how she feels.
it's totally her right to do that, its just a sign of where her priorities are. she is not even in a state right now to be in a relationship with you and be good to you on, as Chris described, a genuine foundation.
she may very well be a faker. by that i mean, she believes in faking it until something forces her to change. she faked her 7 year relationship long distance until you came along. she faked passivity with her ex until he said "i don't want this any more".
she avoids having to make the decisions, own up to them, claim what she wants, be honest about it, and be prepared to get yelled at or deal with her own actions and desires. she puts it on you, she puts it on him, but never on her.
selfish selfish, and i'm sorry, but if i'm going to be with a selfish person it better be the "i have to have you all to myself and no one else can have you" type of selfish. not the "i'm so confused and can't make a choice and there's all this pressure and i don't know what i want so wait there while I think about it" selfish.
you are a valuable person. your time, heart, and feelings are valuable.
she isn't treating them like they are. so you can take a hint from her ex. you don't have to cut her off altogether.
you can just say, "this is crap, i'm the other man, and i won't be treated like this. i have feelings for you, i'd like to try to be with you, but you had better clean your act up and decide what you want and be honest. i'm not going to try to convince you, i just refuse to invest my energy into a hole with no visible bottom."
hope this helps. yes, i write a lot. it's what i do. :P
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life without movies is like cereal without milk. possible, but disgusting. but not nearly as bad as cereal with water. don't lie. I know you've done it.
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thmlyn ill send it to you in an email if you pm me the adresss....im mprinting out your response and reading it later..
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Great Post Thimilin
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thy,
I read your post. and thank you so much for spending that amount of time..for those few minutes when someone writes about this situation..i feel like the heavy weight on my heart is lifted if only temporarly while someone else shares with me the feelings I'm going through.
I still want to send you that convo, pm me your email.
As far as the future goes...you're saying that i should let her know how i feel and ask for some space? (shes going back to her hometown..where he lives..for christmas break) Should I ask her for space during that time period and see how things are when she returns?
I mean, I have class with her in a few hours....it'll be the first time ive seen her since he came to spend thanksgiving her..and seeing as how we kind of left on a bad note last night..i don't know what to do or say..
I read your post. and thank you so much for spending that amount of time..for those few minutes when someone writes about this situation..i feel like the heavy weight on my heart is lifted if only temporarly while someone else shares with me the feelings I'm going through.
I still want to send you that convo, pm me your email.
As far as the future goes...you're saying that i should let her know how i feel and ask for some space? (shes going back to her hometown..where he lives..for christmas break) Should I ask her for space during that time period and see how things are when she returns?
I mean, I have class with her in a few hours....it'll be the first time ive seen her since he came to spend thanksgiving her..and seeing as how we kind of left on a bad note last night..i don't know what to do or say..
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Actually our class together doesn't start until about 7 hours from now...so please..if you have anything to say..say it now.
Because i wish i knew what to say to her.
Because i wish i knew what to say to her.
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Now she's on the rebound. She wants the other guy back too. How much clearer does this need to be? Sorry to be blunt.
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Originally Posted by gummo
Now she's on the rebound. She wants the other guy back too. How much clearer does this need to be? Sorry to be blunt.
Or take the bait, and willingly fall into the trap of her arms, knowing she may at a moment's notice change her mind again.
6 hours and counting, still don't know what to say.
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Originally Posted by Equilibrium
Gummo, i just don't know what the right thing to do is. walk away from the girl i love, having regrets about what it would have been like?
Originally Posted by Equilibrium
Or take the bait, and willingly fall into the trap of her arms, knowing she may at a moment's notice change her mind again.
6 hours and counting, still don't know what to say.
6 hours and counting, still don't know what to say.
The girl decides to get with you, and attempt a relationship, even though she is unsure. She figures, "Hey, I like this dude, I feel... something, although I am not sure what, I guess I'll give it a go". You get together. Time starts going by, you two get used to one another, you get comfortable. You may even get a place, start living together. meanwhile, this girl has this tiny voice in the back of her mind that keeps saying "Is this right? What do I feel about this, Is this guy just a really good friend?" Meanwhile, she cares about you and won't express her misgivings about the relationship, hoping they will either go away, or that she will come to some conclusion later. She won't.
Ok, it's later. Say, 10 years later. You two are older, thinking about a life and a future, and this girl is srtill thinking about this stuff sometimes. "Did I make the right choice? Can he make me happy? Why don't I feel this way, or why do I feel this way?... I love this guy, I know that, but what KIND of love is it?" Then, the cycle starts to repeat, with you in the place of this other cat she is with... Let me tell you, you do NOT want to go through this...especially after years together...
I am of the mind that all women, at some point in their lives, need to go through some stuff that helps them to stand on their own two feet and not question each and every decision they make...second guess, if you will. Sounds like this girl has yet to do that. You aren't her answer, and neither is this other dude. SHE is her answer, but she doesn't want to be alone. It's terrifying, so terrifying she will build up defenses in order to never end up alone, thinking not being alone is the key to figuring out how to be really happy. Fallacy. She needs to figure out how to feel strong and happy, by herself, before she can entertain any tandem happiness with another person...true happiness with another person. I mean, why is she involved with you in the first place? She has spent seven years with a dude, clearly isn't totally happy in the situation, and is now entertaining ideas that you might hold the key to her ultimate happiness. You don't. She does.
Here is a true test of love. Tell her about this concept. Then tell her, you aren't interested in getting to gether with someone that hasn't explorred these avenues of personal growth, but, that you feel deeply for her and hope that when she does start her journey of self happiness, you will be there as a friend to support her. Once she has aquired a few personal scars or growth (they do hurt, and they do come, even if you don't want them to), the two of you can explore something more, as separate individuals that can approach the relationship with fresh vigor, without all the baggage that you guys already seem to be lugging around.
This will accomplish multiple tasks. She will become a stronger and more self sufficient person, able to give over more of herself to another, because she will understand that self better. It will give you a chance to see if your feelings for her flag (meaning it might ust have been an infatuation) or grow, (meaning you probably DO love her, and will love her more for the strength she has shown in personal growth). It will also give you a chance to apply the above ideas to yourself, as, they don't seem to apply to only women, from what i can tell. That is sacariest of all, and I am right in the middle of it, right now. it is quite refreshing, though, in some ways. Spead time alone, a lot of time. Can you stand it? Can you be comfortable coming home each to to..you? It isn't easy.
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i'll send my email shortly...
exaaaactly.
basically, your lady hasn't grown up. the woman and relationship gummo describes above is what i called a "faker."
someone who goes through the motions, tells everyone around them they're happy, tells themselves they're happy, but deep down they live in confusion and uncertainty.
gummo hit it on the head. chris hinted it at it too -
you need to be okay with being by yourself before you're ever going to be okay in a relationship.
it comes back to the bird in the hand - that adage about, if you truly love someone/something, you've got to let it go. fighting so hard for something may be a sign that your intentions and your feelings aren't really true and honest.
when someone works so hard to pretend everything is fine (her initial 20 min on the phone with you, her not saying anything to her man while she was dating you), she is busy being in denial.
if she can't face who she is, what she wants, and figure out and deal with it, she can't be good to you, she can't be good to him, and she can't be good to herself.
it's like taping up a busted dam. it's only temporary, not a long term fix, and the dam is going to burst one day and cause some serious tragedy.
what if she and her ex had been married? whatif she had 2 kids when you met her?
then what? she's probably going to be in that situation someday - if it's not you, as gummo describes, it'll be someone else.
she has to learn.
...
when you see her, let her see you're hurt and upset, don't hide that. but don't chase her or fight for her or convince her. be ... zen.
as in, satisfied with who you are and what you're doing. and be absolutely confident and free to let her know you are NOT satisfied with who she is being and what she's doing in this situation.
don't worry about the could have been right now. you don't want that. what you want is, what could be IF SHE CLEANS UP (see how it comes full circle?).
and again, it comes down to actions. i think we all agree in this thread we want you to let it go but we also understand why it's hard.
but when someone spends the holidays with a man they cheated on and broke up with and leaves the man they cheated with alone - that says something. she isn't running to you, she isn't *making space in her life* for you.
when someone doesn't do that - she's not prioritizing you at all. when she answers his calls but not yours, when she frets over him, not you,when she spends the most valuable time with someone else- she's not prioritizing you.
she is prioritizing herself, or someone else, but not you.
in this situation - which, honestly, i've been in, which is why i'm here to own up and help - you back away like she's a bottle of scotch and you're an alcoholic. she is bad juju.
she seems so tasty, so new, so intense, so satisfying.
but she's hurting you right now, and she's not doing anything about it.
in all honesty i am betting she feels two things right now:
- i wish he'd go away so i don't have to think about this or face this, he makes me feel so guilty, i shouldn't be responsible for his feelings, look at the mess he made of things
- i can't deal with him right now but i won't burn bridges b/c i'm a good person and that'd be mean. plus if it really doesn't work out with Man #1 maybe he and i can start dating again.
i think what you're finding shocking right now is that she's capable of this behavior, which we generally tie to f*ckwits (players).
but that's the problem with a true player. that's how they get into your heart and screw you up. they honestly believe they aren't hurting you and feel helpless. they are genuinely trying to make everybody happy - and therefore no one's happy.
what they're doing is being selfish while faking that they're being good to you. she's probably said things that make you say - oh look, see there, she is so sweet, she really does care, how can i leave her?
when in reality she's saying those sweet things to cover up her bad behavior and make herself feel better. she's saying those sweet things to make *herself* feel better. you're thinking, no, she's saying them to make ME feel better. it's true - by making YOU feel better, you stop making her feel guilty, she feels relief, and believes her own lies. it's a cycle. so she keeps doing it ... and you keep wavering on whether you should ditch her.
DITCH boy, ditch. when you see her in class, be polite and be honest.
yes, i had a thing for you. i don't think i can' handle what you're doing or what youa re right now so let's just talk in january when you're back and we've had some time. take care, i wish you the best, hope you have a great holiday, but above all, be honest with yourself in what you want and handle this maturely. we're not in high school any more and you can't have 2 boyfriends at one time, you can't have your cake and eat it too. we're not polyamorous and until youv'e figured out what you want, i'm staying single.
and as gummos said, what applies to her applies to you. you will find far more powerful,lasting, and fulfilling relationships when you love yourself for who you are, when you aren't trying to make people love you. when you're okay as a single person, y ou find, miraculously, that you don't give a rat's @ss what people think.
and oddly enough, that's when the hot women show up and you get to look for thewoman who doesn't give a rat's @ss what you think of her either. and you suddently discover all this comfortable chemistry where you aren't lying, sneaking, doubtful, unsure - your'e just you, she's just her, and it's easy, and it flows.
if you have too think too hard about a relationship it's probably not good for you. honestly. it's probably toxic and needs a bleaching out of your system and life so you can find a much better situation somewhere else.
Here is a true test of love. Tell her about this concept. Then tell her, you aren't interested in getting to gether with someone that hasn't explorred these avenues of personal growth, but, that you feel deeply for her and hope that when she does start her journey of self happiness, you will be there as a friend to support her. Once she has aquired a few personal scars or growth (they do hurt, and they do come, even if you don't want them to), the two of you can explore something more, as separate individuals that can approach the relationship with fresh vigor, without all the baggage that you guys already seem to be lugging around.
This will accomplish multiple tasks. She will become a stronger and more self sufficient person, able to give over more of herself to another, because she will understand that self better. It will give you a chance to see if your feelings for her flag (meaning it might ust have been an infatuation) or grow, (meaning you probably DO love her, and will love her more for the strength she has shown in personal growth). It will also give you a chance to apply the above ideas to yourself, as, they don't seem to apply to only women, from what i can tell. That is sacariest of all, and I am right in the middle of it, right now. it is quite refreshing, though, in some ways. Spead time alone, a lot of time. Can you stand it? Can you be comfortable coming home each to to..you? It isn't easy.
This will accomplish multiple tasks. She will become a stronger and more self sufficient person, able to give over more of herself to another, because she will understand that self better. It will give you a chance to see if your feelings for her flag (meaning it might ust have been an infatuation) or grow, (meaning you probably DO love her, and will love her more for the strength she has shown in personal growth). It will also give you a chance to apply the above ideas to yourself, as, they don't seem to apply to only women, from what i can tell. That is sacariest of all, and I am right in the middle of it, right now. it is quite refreshing, though, in some ways. Spead time alone, a lot of time. Can you stand it? Can you be comfortable coming home each to to..you? It isn't easy.
exaaaactly.
basically, your lady hasn't grown up. the woman and relationship gummo describes above is what i called a "faker."
someone who goes through the motions, tells everyone around them they're happy, tells themselves they're happy, but deep down they live in confusion and uncertainty.
gummo hit it on the head. chris hinted it at it too -
you need to be okay with being by yourself before you're ever going to be okay in a relationship.
it comes back to the bird in the hand - that adage about, if you truly love someone/something, you've got to let it go. fighting so hard for something may be a sign that your intentions and your feelings aren't really true and honest.
when someone works so hard to pretend everything is fine (her initial 20 min on the phone with you, her not saying anything to her man while she was dating you), she is busy being in denial.
if she can't face who she is, what she wants, and figure out and deal with it, she can't be good to you, she can't be good to him, and she can't be good to herself.
it's like taping up a busted dam. it's only temporary, not a long term fix, and the dam is going to burst one day and cause some serious tragedy.
what if she and her ex had been married? whatif she had 2 kids when you met her?
then what? she's probably going to be in that situation someday - if it's not you, as gummo describes, it'll be someone else.
she has to learn.
...
when you see her, let her see you're hurt and upset, don't hide that. but don't chase her or fight for her or convince her. be ... zen.
as in, satisfied with who you are and what you're doing. and be absolutely confident and free to let her know you are NOT satisfied with who she is being and what she's doing in this situation.
don't worry about the could have been right now. you don't want that. what you want is, what could be IF SHE CLEANS UP (see how it comes full circle?).
and again, it comes down to actions. i think we all agree in this thread we want you to let it go but we also understand why it's hard.
but when someone spends the holidays with a man they cheated on and broke up with and leaves the man they cheated with alone - that says something. she isn't running to you, she isn't *making space in her life* for you.
when someone doesn't do that - she's not prioritizing you at all. when she answers his calls but not yours, when she frets over him, not you,when she spends the most valuable time with someone else- she's not prioritizing you.
she is prioritizing herself, or someone else, but not you.
in this situation - which, honestly, i've been in, which is why i'm here to own up and help - you back away like she's a bottle of scotch and you're an alcoholic. she is bad juju.
she seems so tasty, so new, so intense, so satisfying.
but she's hurting you right now, and she's not doing anything about it.
in all honesty i am betting she feels two things right now:
- i wish he'd go away so i don't have to think about this or face this, he makes me feel so guilty, i shouldn't be responsible for his feelings, look at the mess he made of things
- i can't deal with him right now but i won't burn bridges b/c i'm a good person and that'd be mean. plus if it really doesn't work out with Man #1 maybe he and i can start dating again.
i think what you're finding shocking right now is that she's capable of this behavior, which we generally tie to f*ckwits (players).
but that's the problem with a true player. that's how they get into your heart and screw you up. they honestly believe they aren't hurting you and feel helpless. they are genuinely trying to make everybody happy - and therefore no one's happy.
what they're doing is being selfish while faking that they're being good to you. she's probably said things that make you say - oh look, see there, she is so sweet, she really does care, how can i leave her?
when in reality she's saying those sweet things to cover up her bad behavior and make herself feel better. she's saying those sweet things to make *herself* feel better. you're thinking, no, she's saying them to make ME feel better. it's true - by making YOU feel better, you stop making her feel guilty, she feels relief, and believes her own lies. it's a cycle. so she keeps doing it ... and you keep wavering on whether you should ditch her.
DITCH boy, ditch. when you see her in class, be polite and be honest.
yes, i had a thing for you. i don't think i can' handle what you're doing or what youa re right now so let's just talk in january when you're back and we've had some time. take care, i wish you the best, hope you have a great holiday, but above all, be honest with yourself in what you want and handle this maturely. we're not in high school any more and you can't have 2 boyfriends at one time, you can't have your cake and eat it too. we're not polyamorous and until youv'e figured out what you want, i'm staying single.
and as gummos said, what applies to her applies to you. you will find far more powerful,lasting, and fulfilling relationships when you love yourself for who you are, when you aren't trying to make people love you. when you're okay as a single person, y ou find, miraculously, that you don't give a rat's @ss what people think.
and oddly enough, that's when the hot women show up and you get to look for thewoman who doesn't give a rat's @ss what you think of her either. and you suddently discover all this comfortable chemistry where you aren't lying, sneaking, doubtful, unsure - your'e just you, she's just her, and it's easy, and it flows.
if you have too think too hard about a relationship it's probably not good for you. honestly. it's probably toxic and needs a bleaching out of your system and life so you can find a much better situation somewhere else.
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Like 7thson said yesterday, "it seems like the only answer you are looking for is one that puts you in her arms." We have all told you what we think you should do. And most of us are saying the same thing, to let her go...thmilin gave you some great advice on what to say, I back her up on that. Now it's up to you to decide if you are going to take our advice. Ultimately it is your life and YOU need to decide if this is worth all the turmoil. Like thmilin said, you need to love yourself. When you love yourself, you will then be able to be in a true, equally loving relationship with someone else. Good luck! Let us know how it goes.
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One hour until I see her. I'm starting to get nervous and edgy. I've read, reread, triple reread and skimmed over everything all of you say.
I pretty much have made up my mind one what I will do. The problem is that in the past i always wind up saying superflous things, or do superflous things. But this time i'm going to try and stick to the gameplan. I won't lie to you, if I find the opportunity to kiss her one more time, I'm doing it. Then I'll sever the ties with her and let her go./ If she ever comes back, I'll hope I'm not involved with somone else.
What I'm going to say to here, and whats going to be the main theme of my conversation with her among the things that sedai and thym mentioned is this..."the moment you decided you wanted him, is the moment you gave up on me. And I cannot be involved with someone who doesn't know what they want"
followed by my idea of how to handle the situation from there on..ie reassessing things in the future. Sounds so good in writing, lets hope its equally as understandable when i say it in words to her.
I'll update you on what happens tonight.
I pretty much have made up my mind one what I will do. The problem is that in the past i always wind up saying superflous things, or do superflous things. But this time i'm going to try and stick to the gameplan. I won't lie to you, if I find the opportunity to kiss her one more time, I'm doing it. Then I'll sever the ties with her and let her go./ If she ever comes back, I'll hope I'm not involved with somone else.
What I'm going to say to here, and whats going to be the main theme of my conversation with her among the things that sedai and thym mentioned is this..."the moment you decided you wanted him, is the moment you gave up on me. And I cannot be involved with someone who doesn't know what they want"
followed by my idea of how to handle the situation from there on..ie reassessing things in the future. Sounds so good in writing, lets hope its equally as understandable when i say it in words to her.
I'll update you on what happens tonight.
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Um. We had class. We acted like normal friends around each other. Laughing, giggling, she touched me alot, hands face...like playfully.
Then she had to go immediately afterwards. So we never got a chance to talk. She was very upbeat, but every now and then she stared off....probably thinking about the situation.
Overall, I'd have to say she was cheerful, but obviously downplaying something that was bothering her.
As soon as we left she texted me "it was nice seeing you"
Um. Damn. What just happened?
Then she had to go immediately afterwards. So we never got a chance to talk. She was very upbeat, but every now and then she stared off....probably thinking about the situation.
Overall, I'd have to say she was cheerful, but obviously downplaying something that was bothering her.
As soon as we left she texted me "it was nice seeing you"
Um. Damn. What just happened?
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Originally Posted by Equilibrium
Um. Damn. What just happened?
Either way, you've got to pin her down and speak your mind. Don't let it get swept under the rug, because it never stays there.
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yeah. go read my email eq. i read your IM convo and responded. she's faking to avoid being responsible.
i had a person similar and ever since i call people i see do the same behavior by the reference - he's adam v****, and i'll go, oh that's an adam, or that's a v****. been there, done that, and now i know to avoid them.
she is manipulating you in social situations to avoid being called on her behavior, being called out for treating you badly, for behaving badly. she gets away with it only if you let her.
i go for the jugular and say, here's x, y, z, that you did and i'm tire of it. i'm done with you. nothing you say, no flirtation, no light convo, no im, no cute little text message is going to change that.
that's generally when they gulp and freak out that you pegged them for what they are and are fed up. then they beg you to take them back.
but by that point you see through them and you're through.
speak your mind. there is no rug. if you let her she'll lead you on with the cuteness then suddenly you'll be only friends and never have talked about how you ended up friends or her part in making you just friends.
and she'll get away with her behavior to date, which, i repeat, is bad juju.
i had a person similar and ever since i call people i see do the same behavior by the reference - he's adam v****, and i'll go, oh that's an adam, or that's a v****. been there, done that, and now i know to avoid them.
she is manipulating you in social situations to avoid being called on her behavior, being called out for treating you badly, for behaving badly. she gets away with it only if you let her.
i go for the jugular and say, here's x, y, z, that you did and i'm tire of it. i'm done with you. nothing you say, no flirtation, no light convo, no im, no cute little text message is going to change that.
that's generally when they gulp and freak out that you pegged them for what they are and are fed up. then they beg you to take them back.
but by that point you see through them and you're through.
speak your mind. there is no rug. if you let her she'll lead you on with the cuteness then suddenly you'll be only friends and never have talked about how you ended up friends or her part in making you just friends.
and she'll get away with her behavior to date, which, i repeat, is bad juju.
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