How do we be good people?

See, I think being nice is a shallow goal. Do you want to be nice to someone who is trying to murder your family, or do you want to kill them first in order to protect your family? I try to be nice as much as I can. I try really really hard, and I just suck at it. I don't know why but I want to criticise everyone all the time. I think it's because I'm really criticising myself. Take Iroquois for example. I project a lot of negative things at him because he treats me like garbage, but a lot of it could also be said about me. Human effort is not the way. I can not become a good person by my own efforts. Maybe I could become good by some other people's standards, but are they necessarily good? What's good about being called good by evil people? I do believe all human beings are inherently evil. And if there is any goodness in me I don't take credit for it. I am not a good person, I'm actually a horrible person. But if there is any goodness in me it is because God is working in my life changing me. But right now I just feel like complete garbage, and I haven't been obeying God much lately. I do talk to him, and I do listen to him, but I really need to get it together and obey him fully. Honestly every moment of my life is filled with joy when I am obeying God and being intimate with him. I've just slacked off so much lately and indulged in so much sin and I'm paying for it in my relationships and my overall level of happiness.

I'm sorry @Iroquois and @Miss Vicky for berating you guys so much. I really have a hard time tolerating the two of you, and I find that you're both very dishonest with me which is infuriating. I forgive you both, but I really don't like either of you. I'm sorry... that's just the reality of the situation I guess. I don't know what to do about it, and the only help I ever got from anyone here was, "Just don't be a dick." Which was not helpful at all. I often wonder why I even bother coming here... But there are some people I like, and I like movies.

“In the moment when I truly understand my enemy, understand him well enough to defeat him, then in that very moment I also love him. I think it’s impossible to really understand somebody, what they want, what they believe, and not love them the way they love themselves. And then, in that very moment when I love them.... I destroy them.”

― Orson Scott Card, Ender's Game


Love and truth are much nobler pursuits than kindness. I hate it when people tell me nice sounding lies to try and make me feel better. I have a co-worker who does that a lot to me. He gives me a forced smile (only his lips smile, not the rest of his face) and a diagonal nod when he says, "Yeah" because he's trying not to shake his head "no." And when he says "Everything is fine," it lacks the emphasis and impact that he has when he's being sincere. I guess he doesn't realize I can tell when he's lying and thinks that people's feelings are more important than the truth. That's like telling someone they're healthy when they have terminal cancer. It may make them feel better in that moment, but it will hurt them more when the tragedy comes.

Many people have fabricated a definition of "good" and shaped it into what they already are so that they can qualify.

Really? You mentioned me so that you could tell me in public that you don't like me?

I don't like you either - and haven't for quite some time - but that wasn't something that needed to be said publicly, now was it? (Or at all, really.)

As for your "forgiveness" - I neither want nor need it. I've been nothing but honest with you and have done you no wrong.

The only person not being honest with you is you.

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One of my favorite quotes is "Do not argue what a good man should be, be one".

and what is a goood man? look inside, see its there and do it.

"That's like telling someone they're healthy when they have terminal cancer. It may make them feel better in that moment, but it will hurt them more when the tragedy comes."

Or it could be a buffer to help you mediate the immediate perceived negative until you are able to recognize and manage it for yourself.

You don't teach a child how to walk by saying, "Idiot baby! You're not even running! Stupid idiot baby!" No. You encourage and honor the effort, at least for as long as that effort is sincere. You may tell them they are doing good, though by your personal standard of walking techniques they may suck in comparison. But relative to the capability of that child, it IS good. Why not highlight that to encourage more effort and eventual progress?

Perhaps you, in this moment, are learning to walk. Your friend is simply offering support for as best as he may know how given your seeming inability to walk this path on your own. At least until you can recognize it on your own.

It depends on how you wish to perceive it though. This glass is simultaneously half empty and half full. We are simultaneously capable of both good and evil. It's absolutely up to you as to what you choose to project.

Humility is a factor. If God is important to you, then you should recognize that we are born of the earth, blemished in sin. You (we) are sheep, ignorant and weak to the harms of this world. Have faith in your shepherd to lead you. Have humility to recognize that you do not have the answers. You are not perfect. Neither is anyone else. Be humble and know that you do not know and make effort to learn. Part of that learning is seeing the best in others, or at least their potential. Build them up (selflessly) and you will find your world view shift. Its not for "me." As it never should be.

Anyhoo. I'm on my phone and I think I may have lost the plot thumbing this out.

Good luck to you through this.

Zotis-

I don't post much, but I have to say:

1) ynwtf's post is insightful and well tailored to you.

2) Vicky's post is not an unfair response to what you said. I think you vacillate in your attempts to build bridges; I think a lot of your posts like this are trying to do two things: A) serve as an open and sincere statement from the heart B) trying to communicate your feelings. Sometimes in your pursuit of sincerity you say things that will be off-putting to the people you try to communicate to, thus the communication will often fail to reach them, and that might feel really crappy because you put honest effort into it.

3) I have a ton of disagreements with you and your stances, but the part of you that's driven to make these sort of vulnerable and strange posts is by far my favorite thing about you. I think you have a cyclical nature, and my earnest advice is that you not ignore it; you tend to transition from stubborn/obstinate/aggressive to reflective/sympathetic/compromising and both of those states can be useful if you factor in the presence of that change. Maybe I'm wrong about it, but it definitely reminds me of myself (though different cycles), and by far the healthiest use I've gotten out of those cycles is leaning into them and trying to keep the progress made by both.

You know I dislike your politics (and I'm not gonna say that doesn't matter either, that's hugely important), and I'm not saying that to take a shot at you, but I honestly hope the best for you because you clearly, clearly have a natural desire to grow; and that recognition of that really good part of you comes despite my disagreements, so it's especially strong :]

To your topic title, I think my answer is also generally applicable (to myself especially): don't rely on epiphanies for growth, because they'll *feel* incredibly productive but unless you put them into a structured course of action, you won't do anything with them (and you'll just keep having more and more epiphanies that feel really good, but don't go anywhere).

Actually the reason I mentioned you was to apologize, that's all.

That's nice. I forgive you anyway, and I will always forgive you and everyone else for every wrong thing done to me, percieved or actual.

Lol, this makes me laugh. Ah it does feel good to laugh about it instead of letting it bother me.

Anyway, I'm still putting you on ignore. I hope you really do enjoy your life. Take care. Goodbye.

Because apologies always sound the most sincere and are most effective when they're immediately followed by words like "I really have a hard time tolerate you," "I find you're very dishonest with me" and "I really don't like you."

Well, he did forgive you, but you still have to work for his respect. /s

__________________
Look, I'm not judging you - after all, I'm posting here myself, but maybe, just maybe, if you spent less time here and more time watching films, maybe, and I stress, maybe your taste would be of some value. Just a thought, ya know.

I'm keeping away from your discords with other users, but:


Strong words for a believer of a religion.


Besides, I see good base for philosophical discussion in this:



Let's assume that:

a) God exists
b) He is omnipotent

Given a) and b) God knows whether you will go to Heaven or Hell, whether you will be a good or evil person, and also has ways to make you either of those. If you believe any goodness in you is because of God, therefore any evil in you has to be because of God too (because he has ways to stop it, prevent you from doing evil, or giving you more goodness).

To take your dilemmas further.


There is no such decision that can be made without any influence of any external factors. There is no human that can pull levers in his brain. But even if there was, it wouldn't have changed anything. Your brain is a collection of electrons and other chunks that drift along the paths of the least resistance. Decision making process can be unpredictable, but it doesn't mean it's nondeterministic.

The only free will we can talk about is the colloquial "nobody puts a gun to your head and forces you to do something", but in philosophical sense free will is impossible in every and any universe that has consistent laws of physics.


To get back to God and his alleged influence on you as a person.


If somebody could predict your every move, he would have total control over you. Knowing how you're going to react on any given stimulus he could induce any desired reaction. In a way, that would make a human nothing more than a machine controlled by somebody who pushes buttons in order to achieve a desired result. All of this assuming it is possible that there is such an omnipotent being. And according to physics there is not (Laplace's demon).


Therefore, the only goodness in you is the effect of your personal growth and the influence of other people.

Thanks @ynwtf and @Slappydavis for your encouragement.

I will respond to things you've said in more detail. I'm still mulling over my thoughts.

All those things are true, so I really don't understand how you can think they make it sound less sincere. I don't have to like you in order to forgive you. Aren't you a post-modernist?

So much for that ignore list, huh?

I'm not talking about your "forgiveness" - again I did nothing wrong for you to forgive - I'm talking about your empty apology. You clearly aren't sorry for your behavior which is more than evident by the fact that you keep repeating it.

Read the original post again. Immediately after saying he is sorry for berating me, he calls me a liar. So sincere.

So by calling you a liar, I'm still berating you, therefore my apology isn't genuine? But you're also calling me a liar and saying you haven't done anything wrong. So if I call you a liar it's wrong, but if you call me one it's okay?

What have I done wrong? When have I lied to you? All of our interactions have been public. Quote it.

Oy. Can we ditch the blithe generalizations about religion? I think I've seen 3-4 of these in the last couple of months, sometimes in almost totally unrelated threads. If you deliberately want to argue about religion, cool: start a thread. I'll participate, guaranteed.

Of course, that'll require more of you than these kinds of drive-by skepticisms:

...or the good of the ability to diverge from God's will is judged a greater good than the mere existence of evil. Or you're making an argument about time, cause, and effect and trying to apply it to a Being that exists outside of time. Or a dozen other possible explanations for this very, very old argument that people have been grappling with for thousands of years, all of which are available with a light Googling. Assuming the desire is to really philosophically consider these questions rather than smack a religious person on a message board.

Agreed. But you haven't established that only the physical exists.

That's not what Laplace's demon means at all. Laplace's demon is about the philosophical implications of materialism, and how it inevitably implies determinism. To that end it's useful, and it's a concept I've found myself invoking in religious debates quite frequently (as you do above, in pointing out the incompatibility of materialism and free will). But it's not an argument for materialism as opposed to any metaphysical concept, and it definitely doesn't mean that "physics" says an "omnipotent being" isn't possible.

What you're basically saying is "assuming only the physical exists, the metaphysical can't." Which is totally true, but also tautological.

Agree with most everything Slappy said, BTW. I believe your desire to improve yourself is genuine, and to that end I hope you take the constructive criticism to heart.

I think a big part of that personal growth is going to be making distinctions between what passes through your head and "truth." Because it is indeed important to speak the truth, but that doesn't mean you need to say everything you're thinking, either. Speaking the truth means not lying, or withholding opinions just to spare people, particularly on things that matter. But it does not obligate you to voice any criticism in any context.

There's something to be said for not sharing every thought that comes to mind. I think your approach to conversation may be key here. There's almost a weird math involved in how I read you. Like there has to be some type of equation balance for it to work. Compliment then criticize. Honest insight followed by offense. I envision you with a stick in hand as you say something like "You hurt me. I don't want to hurt you." then you hit them with the stick. I'm joking sort of, but reading your posts there's a similar dynamic playing out.

It would help bridge these gaps you have with some users to simply stop at the sincere comments and not continue---at least not until more established and positive conversations are shared. Be mindful of how others may interpret your words. I mean, it's already damn difficult to communicate with someone who's even on the same page with us. Especially via text. All the cues are gone and it is just so easy to project our assumptions onto the text of others. Especially when those words are so critical and biting, even if the writer of those words may be looking at the matter from a scientific observational posture. There may truly be no ill intent behind the words, but the words do have weight regardless of what you may have intended them for. Not everything must be stated. If you wish to mediate that gap with other users, then edit yourself to avoid the risk of offending. Even if that's not your desire to offend. I mean, I don't mean to offend by pissing on the sidewalk, but I've learned that most people find that offensive. So, to accommodate society, I've agreed to not do it. People smile at me now instead of throwing things

When we meet new people most, I think, would not first address their faults. Even if prefaced with "I mean no disrespect. This is simply an observable fact but...." No! You get to know them first through casual conversation. At some point you learn if that person has the personality for deep analytical dives and philosophical reflections. If so? Great. Pose your thoughts and discuss. If not? Then keep it, else you might offend.

Look. I don't know you man. I've had some fun with you in the drunj thread a while back and we've had a few minor back-and-forth comments in random threads. I'm only responding to the few comments I'm seeing here, your interactions with Vicky and Iro, and the confusing mix of sincerity and biting opinions. This post is just to point out a few things that I've noticed and offer another perspective. Maybe it can help. Maybe not. I think you do mean well, but I also think you may have a difficult time is seeing where lines should probably be drawn.

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"My Dionne Warwick understanding of your dream indicates that you are ambivalent on how you want life to eventually screw you." - Joel

"Ever try to forcibly pin down a house cat? It's not easy." - Captain Steel

"I just can't get pass sticking a finger up a dog's butt." - John Dumbear

Also worth noting that just as "the truth" is not a synonym for "any impression of someone I get," speaking it does not require that what you say be perfectly blunt or incendiary.

"I don't appreciate this unnecessary hostility" is expressing the same "truth" as something like "you're a horrible bitter shrew." Pretty big difference in how it's received, however.

Even bigger difference if in fact one of you is an actual shrew

(just tryna stand up for one of my fellow scurrying species against these outlandish generic slurs)

Might be harsh, but OP himself said he wants the harsh truth instead of sweet talk. I maintain my point. It's not about faith per se, but about religion. And (almost?) all religions offer such sweet lies (or at the very least non-proved made-up explanations) to make the believers feel better. For example you can believe in Heaven, but you can't be sure how it is really -- and the perspective of just nothing, the end is scary, so people came up with the idea of Heaven to minimize their fear of death.

You know, religion will exist as long as it has believers. In order to make new believers arrive it's best to tempt them by sweet promotion (today you get redemption absolutely for free!). And in order to make current believers stay, you threaten them with eternal damnation.

You can destroy and erase from people's memory all science and knowledge, but sooner or later it will return in exactly same form and shape. However, if you destroy and erase all religions, those will never return in the same form and shape.

Faith itself is of value, but religion has just way too many bad things to go with.

I always post these at work when bored. When I get back home I have other things to do.
Don't understand.
Laplace's demon is a hypothetical creature that has all the knowledge about the position and momentum of elementary particles, so according to quantum physics using such knowledge you theoretically can (with sufficiently large computing resources) deduce everything there is to know about world. From what I understand it's simply impossible for such being to exist due to the law of conservation of energy. This is because the world works in a way experiments that led to Heisenberg's principle show. To fulfill this law the world needs to have all the definitions in it at the same time. So in order to create knowledge (the definition of momentum and position) you need to sacrifice energy, and energy is not limitless.

To simplify, in order to know everything about world you need a brain bigger than the world, and if you actually allow such illogical thing as truth, then the definition of truth loses its meaning, and you can basically say anything, including God who knows and doesn't know everything at the same time, that there's an infinite number of gods in infinite number of worlds etc. ad absurdum. Anyway, the knowledge itself does not imply the influence of that knowledge on human beings (to continue on free will).

Of course God is beyond all this, he has superpowers, we are too stupid to understand him etc. I'm just a puny human being, so I'm basing everything on knowledge, and God is beyond knowledge etc. Fine, maybe that's true, but the thing is you can't prove God exists, and proving he doesn't exist is against logic. Anyway, there are no proofs for God, and no proofs for magic. Therefore, following this way of thinking, magic might exist too. And dragons. And Cthulhu. And what nots.

PS: Feel free to point any fallacies in my thinking or misunderstandings (I'm physics layman). I'm still learning. Meanwhile... I took time off work, so I will probably spend more than a week watching films instead of MoFoing, so don't be surprised if I don't reply.
PS2: Make it a new thread if you want. Even if I give up this discussion maybe other people will join in.