MST3K: Anti-cinema?

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I wouldn't go so far as to call it good, but it definitely isn't bad. Zsigmond's cinematography is notable, for one.
Notable for what?

This is what Roger Ebert had to say about the movie's cinematography in his review:

We begin with a fundamental question: Why is “Heaven’s Gate” so painful and unpleasant to look at? I’m not referring to its content, but to its actual visual texture: This is one of the ugliest films I have ever seen. Its director, Michael Cimino, opens his story at Harvard, continues it in Montana, and closes it abroad a ship. And yet a grim industrial pall hangs low over everything. There are clouds and billows of dirty yellow smoke in every shot that can possibly justify it, and when he runs out of smoke he gives us fog and such incredible amounts of dust that there are whole scenes where we can barely see anything. That’s not enough. Cimino also shoots his picture in a maddening soft focus that makes the people and places in this movie sometimes almost impossible to see. And then he goes after the colors. There’s not a single primary color in this movie, only dingy washed-out sepia tones.

I know, I know: He’s trying to demystify the West, and all those other things hotshot directors try to do when they don’t really want to make a Western. But this movie is a study in wretched excess. It is so smoky, so dusty, so foggy, so unfocused and so brownish yellow that you want to try Windex on the screen. A director is in deep trouble when we do not even enjoy the primary act of looking at his picture.



Ebert was never wrong



Confirmed.
Ebert was wrong about Heaven's Gate because he had seen the cut up and shortened theatrical version that was forced by the studio. Had he seen the restored to the director's original vision at 3h 39m he might have thought differently about it.

I might not always pen well written reviews, but I am proud of my review of Heaven's Gate Director's Cut. It's worth looking at.



Ebert was wrong about Heaven's Gate because he had seen the cut up and shortened theatrical version that was forced by the studio. Had he seen the restored to the director's original vision at 3h 39m he might have thought differently about it.
Your statement is factually wrong. Ebert did address the different cuts of the movie in his review:

But Cimino’s in deeper trouble still. “Heaven’s Gate” has, of course, become a notorious picture, a boondoggle that cost something like $36 million and was yanked out of its New York opening run after the critics ran gagging from the theater. Its running time, at that point, was more than four hours. Perhaps length was the problem? Cimino went back to the editing room, while a United Artists executive complained that the film had been “destroyed” by an unfairly negative review by New York Times critic Vincent Canby. Brother Canby was only doing his job. If the film was formless at four hours, it is insipid at 140 minutes. At either length it is so incompletely photographed and edited that there are times when we are not even sure which character we are looking at. Christopher Walken is in several of the Western scenes before he finally gets a close-up and we see who he is. John Hurt wanders through various scenes to no avail. Kris Kristofferson is the star of the movie, and is never allowed to generate enough character for us to miss, should he disappear.



That does not sound like Roger Ebert's style, not to mention there's a typo in there. Can you verify that is an actual quote from Roger Ebert.


Even if that is truly a quote from Roger Ebert he wad only human, not a god.



It's definitely Ebert's review, but he was well known to have some terrible takes. He said many stupid things over the years. And him complaining about the photography in Heavens Gate is one of them.


Also, it's fun to see someone who only just yesterday was talking about how opinions are purely subjective, and then expects us to accept Ebert's take as some kind of objective truth.



Can you verify that is an actual quote from Roger Ebert.
For crying out loud, it's straight out of rogerebert.com, so of course it's his actual review!

Heaven's Gate

Roger Ebert January 01, 1981

We begin with a fundamental question: Why is “Heaven’s Gate” so painful and unpleasant to look at? I’m not referring to its content, but to its actual visual texture: This is one of the ugliest films I have ever seen. Its director, Michael Cimino, opens his story at Harvard, continues it in Montana, and closes it abroad a ship. And yet a grim industrial pall hangs low over everything. There are clouds and billows of dirty yellow smoke in every shot that can possibly justify it, and when he runs out of smoke he gives us fog and such incredible amounts of dust that there are whole scenes where we can barely see anything. That’s not enough. Cimino also shoots his picture in a maddening soft focus that makes the people and places in this movie sometimes almost impossible to see. And then he goes after the colors. There’s not a single primary color in this movie, only dingy washed-out sepia tones.

I know, I know: He’s trying to demystify the West, and all those other things hotshot directors try to do when they don’t really want to make a Western. But this movie is a study in wretched excess. It is so smoky, so dusty, so foggy, so unfocused and so brownish yellow that you want to try Windex on the screen. A director is in deep trouble when we do not even enjoy the primary act of looking at his picture.

But Cimino’s in deeper trouble still. “Heaven’s Gate” has, of course, become a notorious picture, a boondoggle that cost something like $36 million and was yanked out of its New York opening run after the critics ran gagging from the theater. Its running time, at that point, was more than four hours. Perhaps length was the problem? Cimino went back to the editing room, while a United Artists executive complained that the film had been “destroyed” by an unfairly negative review by New York Times critic Vincent Canby. Brother Canby was only doing his job. If the film was formless at four hors, it is insipid at 140 minutes. At either length it is so incompletely photographed and edited that there are times when we are not even sure which character we are looking at. Christopher Walken is in several of the Western scenes before he finally gets a close-up and we see who he is. John Hurt wanders through various scenes to no avail. Kris Kristofferson is the star of the movie, and is never allowed to generate enough character for us to miss, should he disappear.

The opening scenes are set at Harvard (they were actually shot in England, but never mind). They show Kristofferson, Hurt, and other idealistic young men graduating in 1870 and setting off to civilize a nation. Kristofferson decides to go west, to help develop the territory. He explains this decision in a narration, and the movie might have benefited if he’d narrated the whole thing, explaining as he went along. Out west, as a lawman, he learns of a plot by the cattlebreeders’ association to hire a private army and assassinate 125 newly arrived European immigrations who are, it is claimed, anarchists, killers, and thieves. Most of the movie will be about this plot, Kristofferson’s attempts to stop it, Walken’s involvement in it, and the involvement of both Kristofferson and Walken in the private life of a young Montana madam (Isabelle Huppert).

In a movie where nothing is handled well, the immigrants are handled very badly. Cimino sees them as a mob. They march onscreen, babble excitedly in foreign tongues, and rush off wildly in all directions. By the movie’s end, we can identify only one of them for sure. She is the Widow Kovach, the emblem of the immigrants’ suffering. Every time she steps forward out of the mob, somebody respectfully murmurs “Widow Kovach!” in the subtitles. While the foreigners are hanging on to Widow Kovach’s every insight, the cattlemen are holding meetings in private clubs and offering to pay their mercenaries $5 a day plus expenses and $50 for every other foreigner shot or hung. I am sure of those terms because they are repeated endlessly throughout a movie that cares to make almost nothing else clear.

The ridiculous scenes are endless. Samples: Walken, surrounded by gunmen and trapped in a burning cabin, scribbles a farewell note in which he observes that he is trapped in the burning cabin, and then he signs his full name so that there will be no doubt who the note was from. Kristofferson, discovering Huppert being gang-raped by several men, leaps in with six-guns in both hands and shoots all the men, including those aboard Huppert, without injuring her. In a big battle scene, men make armored wagons out of logs and push them forward into the line of fire, even though anyone could ride around behind and shoot them. There is more. There is much more. It all adds up to a great deal less. This movie is $36 million thrown to the winds. It is the most scandalous cinematic waste I have ever seen, and remember, I’ve seen “Paint Your Wagon.”

https://www.rogerebert.com/reviews/heavens-gate-1981



@crumbsroom the objective truth is that the movie was an unmitigated disaster, both financially and critically.



@crumbsroom the objective truth is that the movie was an unmitigated disaster, both financially and critically.

Financially yes.


Critically, it has long since been reevaluated and feelings are decidedly more mixed. And usually those still clinging to negative views make lousy arguments against it.



You’re ignoring that it has been reevaluated and is considered by many a misunderstood classic these days.

Objectively ignoring it.


And once again we are back to using profits as some kind of metric we should take seriously when discussing artistic worth.



Re: re-evaluation - citations needed.



And once again we are back to using profits as some kind of metric we should take seriously.
I don't know how anyone who claims to want studios to make better movies can overlook the fact that a big enough flop could drive a studio into bankruptcy.

If every single studio and production company went broke, then who would be left to make any movies at all?

It's not that every movie has to make a profit. Studios have been getting through for over 100 years with a system where the big hits help make up for the flops and underperformers. So yeah there's some amazing movies out there that are still amazing despite being box-office flops.

It's not substituting profitability for actual quality - it's just acknowledging that making movies is a very expensive and risky endeavor, commercially speaking. If you don't have at least a few big hits, you won't be able to go out on a limb with a madly uncommercial but highly artistic movie.



I don't know how anyone who claims to want studios to make better movies can overlook the fact that a big enough flop could drive a studio into bankruptcy.

If every single studio and production company went broke, then who would be left to make any movies at all?

It's not that every movie has to make a profit. Studios have been getting through for over 100 years with a system where the big hits help make up for the flops and underperformers. So yeah there's some amazing movies out there that are still amazing despite being box-office flops.

It's not substituting profitability for actual quality - it's just acknowledging that making movies is a very expensive and risky endeavor, commercially speaking. If you don't have at least a few big hits, you won't be able to go out on a limb with a madly uncommercial but highly artistic movie.

I'm talking about artistically. How many times do I have to say this? Stop assuming I don't understand something, and just remember things I've already written.


This conversation has turned to talking about a critical reevaluation of Heavens Gate and you mentioned its financial failure as some kind of rebuttal to this. This is you saying it not making money means it wasn't good. And if this isn't what you are saying, you are being incredibly unclear about what the point of you mentioning it bombing at the box office was because it has no bearing whatsoever on the quality of the film. Absolutely none. Zero.



This conversation has turned to talking about a critical reevaluation of Heavens Gate and you mentioned its financial failure as some kind of rebuttal to this. This is you saying it not making money means it wasn't good.
Your statement is 100% false.

The only reason I brought up the movie in the first place was as an example of the kind of things that have only exacerbated Hollywood's risk-averse mentality.



Review of Heaven's Gate from Siskel and Ebert At the Movies show.



Apparently both Roger Ebert and Gene Siskel (my favorite reviewer) got it wrong! Funny that they lament all the smoke & dust...sepia tones & soft focus...yet Robert Altman did the same thing in McCabe and Mrs. Miller which was loved for the same look. At any rate it just proves critics are humans.



There should definitely be a MST3K version of Heaven's Gate. I think it would be hilarious



Sorry if I'm rude but I'm right
Notable for what?
Notable for looking good. Not the cinematographer's best work, but saying it's ugly is going way too far.

This is what Roger Ebert had to say about the movie's cinematography in his review:
Ebert said lots of stupid things plus his taste was middling at best. He was a good writer, but not a good cinephile.

Ebert was never wrong
I don't mind people following Ebert's reviews to pick what to watch, especially when they're just starting with cinema, but the romanticization of Ebert as the best film critic and a revealed truth in film taste is ludicrous.
__________________
Look, I'm not judging you - after all, I'm posting here myself, but maybe, just maybe, if you spent less time here and more time watching films, maybe, and I stress, maybe your taste would be of some value. Just a thought, ya know.