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I would like to see some specifics from any of you...
‘The Holdovers’ Accused of Plagiarism by ‘Luca’ Screenwriter
Because much like this discussions nobody is getting into specifics. I just skimmed through the allegations and frankly I'm not impressed.
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The specifics are obviously reported and several people have pointed them out to you. If you’re going to dispute a claim, yes, it is your job to back it up with specifics. That’s how a discussion works.
Oh, I didn't even notice the document linked in the article. Reading through it, it does seem like a pretty clear case of plagiarism. Oh well. I'll probably just treat it like Black Swan where I'll still enjoy the film but disapprove of the ethics of those who created it.
As usual, I don't know what Siddon is on about, but then again, I don't think anyone else does either.
As usual, I don't know what Siddon is on about, but then again, I don't think anyone else does either.
It's like a Congo-Line of gaslighting here
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Just because you're too lazy to click on the article doesn't diminish the strength of the allegations.
How much time am I supposed to spend in this thread...but please post the specifics between the two films.
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Great it's pretty clear so kindly sumize the two films similarities or quote all the times the specifics acts of plagiarism.
It's like a Congo-Line of gaslighting here
It's like a Congo-Line of gaslighting here
Because of your demonstrated laziness, here are the first FOUR pages (out of 33) detailing the allegations.
You've already demonstrated you're too lazy to look at the embedded document.
Because of your demonstrated laziness, here are the first FOUR pages (out of 33) detailing the allegations.
Because of your demonstrated laziness, here are the first FOUR pages (out of 33) detailing the allegations.
Not what I asked....I asked you or anyone here to articulate the similarities...not the accusation but the similarities between the two stories.
Why are you so afraid of posting facts?
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Not what I asked....
It's like a Congo-Line of gaslighting here
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Why is it my job to fact check something that seems like BS.
Isn't this America shouldn't the accused be given the benefit of doubt.
But of course you know all that, or at least would have realized it if you took a moment before posting it, rather than just lashing out defensively because you feel cornered or whatever, a situation that is totally avoidable with a tiny little bit of humility.
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Absolutely bonkers reasoning. People are questioning your claim that it "seems like BS," so saying you shouldn't have to fact check because it "seems like BS" is circular. You're trying to use the fact that you posted a gut-level reaction to defend posting a gut-level reaction, which makes no sense.
This is a legal principle that protects people from prosecution, not from opinions. And if your lawyer said "yeah I skimmed the case files, seems like BS. The defense rests" I'm pretty sure you'd fire them.
But of course you know all that, or at least would have realized it if you took a moment before posting it, rather than just lashing out defensively because you feel cornered or whatever, a situation that is totally avoidable with a tiny little bit of humility.
This is a legal principle that protects people from prosecution, not from opinions. And if your lawyer said "yeah I skimmed the case files, seems like BS. The defense rests" I'm pretty sure you'd fire them.
But of course you know all that, or at least would have realized it if you took a moment before posting it, rather than just lashing out defensively because you feel cornered or whatever, a situation that is totally avoidable with a tiny little bit of humility.
And yet another post from another poster...who refuses to get into specifics. And a person of authority non the less.
You want to talk about legal standards....this thread title says he's the screen writer of Luca....that's a lie. The screen writers of Luca were Jesse Andrews ...
Mike Jones
The accuser submitted his script to Payne 10 years ago. Payne's film debuted at TIFF in August. The accusations didn't come out until the day after the Oscar nomination voting started and then the publicized the day before the Oscars.
So let's go through the examples that all of you are avoiding
1. The Holdovers is a period piece....was Fiasco a period piece
2. The Holdovers was about a teacher who is stuck with students during Christmas vacation. Fiasco is a road trip story about a doctor and a young woman.
3. The Holdovers has a subplot with a Cafateria Worker who lost her son in Vietnan
4. Looking at page eight of the comparisons...this is when I quit the idea that a film can't have authority figures, dinner scenes, and cab rides is well...stupid.
Note how the two scenes unfold on a near line-by-line basis:
1. PaulWills is working in his room/on the ward.
2 Amessenger interrupts him to tell him his boss wants him.
3. Paul/Wills self-importantly tells the messenger to tell his boss he is busy.
4. The messenger tells Paul/Willis he actually must go now.
5. Paul/Wills reluctantly acquiesces.
1. PaulWills is working in his room/on the ward.
2 Amessenger interrupts him to tell him his boss wants him.
3. Paul/Wills self-importantly tells the messenger to tell his boss he is busy.
4. The messenger tells Paul/Willis he actually must go now.
5. Paul/Wills reluctantly acquiesces.
Looks like the same scene we've seen in thousands of other films....and this evidence.
Note that:
1. The scene begins with Paul/Wills in a library/quiet carriage
2. Paul/Wills is doing something relaxing, andhas a mug/cup.
3. The third action line sentence consists of Paul/Willis performing two body-based actions.
4. Paul/Wills' fist line is an exclamation that features a religious-based curse.
5. The surprise means he will be stuck alone with Angus/Amy.
6. The physical mechanism by which this occurs is a mode of transport train/helicopter).
Does this seem like plagiarism...both movies have guys hanging out they end up cursing and people that leave use a form a transportation....boy sure seems solid to me.
ote1.The setting is an ‘administrative office hallway'/'vestibule between trains’ - ie both are a hall
2. The scene opens with Paul/Wilis on his phone.
3. The latter part of the scene is intended to stir our sympathy for Angus/Amy.
4. The scene closes with Paul/Wilis having failed to get someone to collect Andy/Amy.
2. The scene opens with Paul/Wilis on his phone.
3. The latter part of the scene is intended to stir our sympathy for Angus/Amy.
4. The scene closes with Paul/Wilis having failed to get someone to collect Andy/Amy.
I like how The Holdovers clearly stole a scene...that they clearly needed for the narative of the story. How dare they
The ‘caught-red handed’ scene on the previous page has been transposed line-by-line:
Line 1: Having caught Angus/Amy red-handed, Paul/Willis opens with a question.
Line 2: Angus/Amy reacts with extreme nonchalance: ‘holds up a finger’ and continues booking hotel/'What are you doing here?’
Line 3: Paul/Wills establishes that they are in trouble - I didn't say you could use the phone’/'wanted to pick up a litte Feriinghett’ (The audience and Amy both know Wilis is being sarcastic Line 4: Angus/Amy react nonchalantly for the second time: continues booking hotel and ‘You owe me a quarter’/*You like Ferlinghetti?” Line 5: Paul/Willis specifically now uses the word ‘hotel’ when talking about the infraction. Line 6: Amy/Angus’ reaction dismisses Paul/Wills' claim to any say in the matter: “None of your business'/*You're not my dad" Line 7: Paul/Wills states that is responsible for Paul/Wills ‘I'm looking after you'/I"m in loco parentis’ Line 8: Amy/Angus mocks what Paul/Wilis® claim to responsibility ‘Looking after me?" Eto/What you just said is ridiculous’.
Line 1: Having caught Angus/Amy red-handed, Paul/Willis opens with a question.
Line 2: Angus/Amy reacts with extreme nonchalance: ‘holds up a finger’ and continues booking hotel/'What are you doing here?’
Line 3: Paul/Wills establishes that they are in trouble - I didn't say you could use the phone’/'wanted to pick up a litte Feriinghett’ (The audience and Amy both know Wilis is being sarcastic Line 4: Angus/Amy react nonchalantly for the second time: continues booking hotel and ‘You owe me a quarter’/*You like Ferlinghetti?” Line 5: Paul/Willis specifically now uses the word ‘hotel’ when talking about the infraction. Line 6: Amy/Angus’ reaction dismisses Paul/Wills' claim to any say in the matter: “None of your business'/*You're not my dad" Line 7: Paul/Wills states that is responsible for Paul/Wills ‘I'm looking after you'/I"m in loco parentis’ Line 8: Amy/Angus mocks what Paul/Wilis® claim to responsibility ‘Looking after me?" Eto/What you just said is ridiculous’.
Pretty sure this scene is in almost every film which covers the same subject matter.
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Naturally, you're ignoring the most important parts. Why is this not surprising? 
The overwhelming body of evidence that THE HOLDOVERS has been transposed from FRISCO therefore includes:
1) An identical cast of main and secondary characters (entirely matching personality, age, role, attributes, personality, description, goals, arc, first and last appearance in screenplay etc).
2) A storyline identical to an extraordinary degree of specificity and abstraction. (NB the story document that opened this document is merely a high-level overview.)
3) An effectively identical structure with only the most minimally altered sequencing.
4) Multiple identical sequences that unfold over multiple scenes, sometimes containing 50 or more shared sequential plot points/sub-beats/transposed lines.
5) Unique and recognizable sequence-level idiosyncrasies from FRISCO that are
present in both screenplays.
6) Multiple key scenes that are effectively unaltered from those in FRISCO.
7) Many scenes in THE HOLDOVERS demonstrable as having been transposed line-by-line from FRISCO.
8) Multiple highly specific scene-level elements unique to FRISCO that are identifiable throughout THE HOLDOVERS including eg highly specific pieces of dialogue and action
1) An identical cast of main and secondary characters (entirely matching personality, age, role, attributes, personality, description, goals, arc, first and last appearance in screenplay etc).
2) A storyline identical to an extraordinary degree of specificity and abstraction. (NB the story document that opened this document is merely a high-level overview.)
3) An effectively identical structure with only the most minimally altered sequencing.
4) Multiple identical sequences that unfold over multiple scenes, sometimes containing 50 or more shared sequential plot points/sub-beats/transposed lines.
5) Unique and recognizable sequence-level idiosyncrasies from FRISCO that are
present in both screenplays.
6) Multiple key scenes that are effectively unaltered from those in FRISCO.
7) Many scenes in THE HOLDOVERS demonstrable as having been transposed line-by-line from FRISCO.
8) Multiple highly specific scene-level elements unique to FRISCO that are identifiable throughout THE HOLDOVERS including eg highly specific pieces of dialogue and action
this thread title says he's the screen writer of Luca....that's a lie. The screen writers of Luca were Jesse Andrews ...
Mike Jones
Mike Jones
Siddon, geez. The accusations were launched months ago! He files it back in January. The story only recently has come to people’s attention! And Yoda has given a reason why it’s likely that it has!
None of that detracts from the allegations! You’re nitpicking over the various scenes while ignoring the more obvious ones that seem to back up the accusations.
None of that detracts from the allegations! You’re nitpicking over the various scenes while ignoring the more obvious ones that seem to back up the accusations.
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Who's lying again?
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He’s nitpicking by highlighting the screenplay part and ignoring the “story by” part. He doesn’t understand a story credit is very important to the writers, and why this is a big deal.
Who's lying again?
Well...you Andrews and Jones are the screenwriters...says right next to the name there..."screen writer". Unless you are saying Jesse Andrews wrote the film twice.
Story By
A common misconception of "Story by" is that it refers to the person who came up with the idea. Not quite...
What it actually means is that anyone who worked on a treatment or any other story outline is entitled to credit for the story.
You may also get this credit if you're hired to do a page one rewrite that gets you sole "Screenplay by" credit, despite the initial writer having written a complete script.
The first writer on an original screenplay is entitled to a shared "Story by" credit. That bylaw is called the "Irreducible Story Minimum."
Screenplay By
This credit goes to writers who physically wrote drafts or scenes that are included in the final version of the movie. "Screenplay by" can only be shared by three people or three teams of people.
That idea of 'teams of people' is where you might run into those jam-packed writing credits sections.
Cuting and pasting are great and fun and all...but once again not seeing the specifics.
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There are A LOT of things he clearly doesn't understand
Right...I'll be bumping this thread every couple months...eagerly waiting for the justice that all of you seem to think is coming for the Holdovers.
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Well...you Andrews and Jones are the screenwriters...says right next to the name there..."screen writer". Unless you are saying Jesse Andrews wrote the film twice.
Cuting and pasting are great and fun and all...but once again not seeing the specifics.