Plodding and Phony - "Pearl Harbor" Stumbles

I think you are not making the proper distinctions (huh I think I spelled that right) between the vietcong & the regular vietnamese people TWT. basiclly the US just started droppin bombs on evrybody becuz they couldnt be bothered to separate their enemies from their allies the south Vietnamese. So The US policy became Kill Them All, They all look alike anyway. HA, I actually rememberd somethin from Pigsnies books.

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God save Freddie Mercury!

By the way, Agent Orange was not a weapon. It was a defoilant designed for use mostly in jungle areas to clear leaves, etc. so that the enemy would not be able to use the jungle as cover. While it turned out to be harmful to humans, it wasn't used in Vietnam for that purpose.

Wow, it's a good thing this isn't a history board. As Mr Paige pointed out Agent Orange was something used to kill foilage, not some secret bomb to blow everyone up. Nagasaki was bombed because Japan still did not surrender after Hiroshima. Hiroshima was bombed because Japan would not surrender and an invasion of Japan would have cost hundreds of thousands of American lives. The Japanese basically had a fight to the death motto (Kamikazi sp?) which included training women and children for the defense of Japan. It's freightening to read some of these opinions trying to make Japan out as some type of victim. I suggest if you're interested yall read up on treatment of Americans in Japanese POW camps. Something like 40% of Americans were killed in those camps. The wars throughout the pacific involving Japan are some of the bloodiest, most disgusting things you'll ever hear about. Historically there has been no more ruthless and dishonorable a country in war than Japan.

Hello, Japan is no more "ruthless & dishpnorable" than the US, Im thinkin. The US killed thousands of filipino civilians during the Philippine Insurrection (around 1900) becuz they wouldnt agree to being colonized by the US. and then who knows how many My Lais went on during the Vietnam war -- old people & kids shot by US troops becuz they couldnt tell between vietcong & regular people. So you cant tell me the US is more saintly than the japanese in times of war.

Have you ever heard of Nanking and what the Japanese did there? I read one report that puts the death toll at anywhere between 340,000-300,000 men, women, and children. The rape total from 80,000-20,000 women and children. Japan still largely denies that Nanking ever happened. They killed quite a few Phillipinos too. Ever heard of the Bataan Death March? 70,000 American and Phillipino POW's forced to march 60 miles to a work camp. 10,000 of them died on the way. They were tortured, beaten, deprived food and water. Some were forced to dig graves and then were buried alive. The Japanese murdered thousands of US POW's all across the Pacific and have yet to acknowledge or even explain it. The Japanese are deservedly notorious for their atrocities all across Asia.

Timing, Knowledgeable Stephen Ambrose Buff that you are, you say that: historically, there has been no more ruthless and dishonorable a country in war than Japan. What about Germany -- whose charming Nazi regime systematically planned to eliminate all Jews, gypsies, and homosexuals from the face of Europe? Surely, they are a tad -- just a tad, mind you -- more "ruthless and dishonorable" than the Japanese?

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Pigsnie, Vicar of Fries!

Timing,

I think the Japanese methods of warfare, their unwillingness to surrender or give up, is entirely incomprehensible to you. In the Pacific, Americans encountered, as they had never before, the most incredible atrocities of war. The fervency and fanaticism of the Japanese and their notion of Bushido.

But this, I think, confirms the INHUMAN nature not just of the Japanese, but of the whole conflict. When the Germans surrendered, they were guys just like us. With the Japanese, it was not that way." Is this because we perceived the Japanese as non-human?

Pigsnie implies in his previous post is a double-standard between the Germans and the Japanese. Why weren't the Germans despised in the same way. The first response to this is that Americans were not so much the victims of these Nazi atrocities. The extermination of the Jews was not important to Britain or the US because it was not Americans and British who were being slaughtered. UNtil Pearl Harbor.

Second, many German atrocities occurred on the Eastern front. France was conquered in six weeks and although fighting in North Africa and on the Continent after June 1944,was bitter at times, it was never so horrific against the Japanese or in the Russo-German conflict in the East.

Americans wouldn't have perceived Germans in the same terms because they were not the objects of the violence. It would be interesting to examine whether Russian perceptions of Germans in World War are similar to US perceptions of Japan. Whereas "Allied critics tended to describe… "Nazi" crimes rather than behavior rooted in German culture or personality" the brutality of the Japanese was presented as being an inherent national/racial characteristic. This point is crucial in understanding the double standards exercised by politicians and the media, as they exploited the 'race' issue in the Pacific war to motivate war-hatred and keep popular support behind campaigns.

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Blonde Klingons: Because it was a good day to dye!

Here's my two cents: Perhaps another reason that the Japanese were (and are) seen differently from the Germans is because (**gasp**!), THEY'RE NOT WHITE. Everyone likes a scapegoat, and a difference like skin color can bring out the worst in people's suspicions of others...It's much easier to blame someone who's in some way "different".

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**** the Lakers!

And a bit back on the subject of the movie, where in the hell were the Asians in Hawaii? Are they honestly trying to convince me that Hawaii is all white? Did anyone else notice this?

I got a "funny" story about the filming of Pearl Harbor. A while back, there was a "cattle call" for Hawaiian extras for this picture. I couldn't make it--I was on the other side of the island but my friends took off for the place and lined up for hours . . . only to be told that they didn't look Hawaiian enough . . . 2 of them were Japanese-Hawaiian like myself. (They didn't care for the Japanese "blood" I guess--considering the subject matter of the movie.) Another was half-native Hawaiian and Portuguese. He didn't make it either even though he had the build and looks of a native. And the worst "shame" of all, was they hired a bunch of haole (Caucasian) surfers from North Beach.

Whole-heartedly agree. How easy it was to herd Americans of Japanese ancestry into internment camps like Manzanar and confiscate all their property and land! And they called that patriotism.

I would say that one race/color did not have the premium on inhumanity.

Well, one thing that all of you are overlooking is that Japan still to this day denies many of their atrocities while Germany is quite accepting of blame and responsibility when it comes to the holocaust. The Japanese don't teach it in schools, they paint themselves as victims, and still say they were "provoked" into attacking Pearl Harbor. Speaking of Germans and Japanese, 40% of American POW's held by Japan were murdered while less than 1% of American POW's held by Germany were murdered. That was a startling number to me when I read it. You speak of internment camps for the Japanese, what is that compared to the torture, rape, and murder committed by Japanese on basically everyone in WW2. I'm not saying one wrong justifies another, but let's compare things in their proper scope here.

Here is a quote from reaction to even this incredibly soft politically correct version of Pearl Harbor from a spokesman for the Japanese Prime Minister Junichiro "it is quite fictitious and one-sided. Japan is portrayed as the enemy and wrong. The U.S. portrayed as right."

So you're saying that the Germans were kinder and more merciful than the Japanese because they killed 1% of American POWs . . . and never mind the internment camps of . . . 7 million Jews? Proper scope? Didn't that number surprise you too??

And you equate the quote of one politician as representative of the entire nation of Japan?

[quote]Originally posted by Wart

So you're saying that the Germans were kinder and more merciful than the Japanese because they killed 1% of American POWs . . . and never mind the internment camps of . . . 7 million Jews? Proper scope? Didn't that number surprise you too??

And you equate the quote of one politician as representative of the entire nation of Japan?

You have unfortunately chosen to pick and choose different parts of my post and twist them to your liking.

Considering the holocaust, don't you find it quite peculiar that the murder rate of German held American POW's is considerably less than that of Japanese held American POW's? What I am saying is that the Japanese murdered more Americans than did the Germans. Draw you're own conclusions there about the kindness and mercy shown to American POW's by both countries.

My reference to internment was of Japanese placed into camps in the United States compared to Americans tortured and killed in Japan. Surely you can see there is quite a difference between being put in a camp and being tortured and murdered.

Also, this is not a quote attributed to "one politician", this is a quote from the spokesman to the Prime Minister. When the leader of Japan says something, yes, I equate that as pretty darn representative of the people who elected him.

I suppose it takes one to know one, Timing.

Apparently it matters a great deal to you who does the killing and who does the dying. And where they do it. And how. Have you though that maybe . . . just maybe . . . the Germans did not have the opportunity to kill more Americans because they did not capture more Americans . . . and Americans were armed . . . as opposed to helpless Jews?

I hate to burst that little bubble of yours (Unless of course, you're Japanese. Its kind of hard to tell from your posts--you do seem to admire us so ) but NO---a spokesman to a Prime Minister--is NOT representative of the people . . .

Do you even see the barbarity of this particular conversation we are having . . .

Maybe on this Fourth of July, you should instead think of John Donne:

"No man is an island entire of itself
Every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main;
If a clod be washed away by the sea,
Europe is the less, as well as a promontory were
As well as if a manor of thy friends or of thine own were;
Any man's death diminishes me, because I am, involved in mankind . . . "

I just want to say that while he may not speak for the people, I do think the quote is relevant, and worth mentioning here. I find it hard to believe that the administration the people elected is WAY off the mark the people are shooting for.

The Japanese vote for the members of the Parliament called the DIET. They are the ones who choose and elect the Prime Minister who is Junichiro Koizumi.

And again, I say, that most of the Japanese--being half-Japanese myself (if that is of any interest to anyone) and having lived in Japan as well DO NOT BELIEVE THAT
"Pearl Harbor . . . is quite fictitious and one-sided. Japan is portrayed as the enemy and wrong. The U.S. portrayed as right . . . "

Let me see . . . do American senators run for election based on whether or now it was OK to nuke Nagasaki & Hiroshima? I thought it was about who we thought could do the most for our country. Dont tell me politicians (good or bad) dont say such bonehead things during their careers . . ,

I've had enough! I'm outta here!

Hey Timing, its pretty obvious you hate the Japanese & that you think they are the worst country in the histry of mankind for killing american pows, never mind stalin & pol pot & Hitler & the phoenix program. So I wont even bother talkin to you about that anymore. But before I go uh, Id like to know exactly what sorta kindness & mercy the americans showed to the good people of my Lai, if you dont mind.

Argh, more people just walking away from conversations. C'mon guys, stick with it. It may be annoying, but following through is far and away more rewarding. I find the 40/1 ratio to be interesting, but I don't see it being talked about much. I won't go as far as to declare one country as more barbaric than the others overall...but there's certainly nothing wrong with saying that this country or that country was cruel in this time period, or during this war.

...And THAT'S why the Japanese are terrible! They killed MORE AMERICANS! Because that's all that matters! But of course, we Americans are just peachy, even though we killed hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, not to mention the innocent body count racked up in the Vietnam war, or how we abused Japanese-Americans in the "internment" camps. WE can shoot Asians, and we're not barbarians. But if they shoot us, oohhhh man, crazy devils from hell! Threatening our way of life!

Jesus man, look at what you're saying.