Why does EVERY DARN THING have to be politicized?

Gotta register my respectful disagreement. Obviously I can't state what you say to be false... that's not my intent to begin with. If you say 'white' america has been unfair to you, then I believe it. My problem lies with your 'most americans' statement. I'm sure you're very popular, but I doubt that you know most Americans (whatever their color).

Also, you leave no room for the reverse. I was one of a few white boys in a predominantly mexican school in Ca. for a year. It was rough... it was 'americans' picking on other 'americans'. Dig?

I work in corporate america. On my campus there are 14,000+ people who work here in my location alone. There is HUGE mix of people and were I to count heads on any given day I doubt I'd see a majority of any one people. My team consists of (1) Redneck white boy (me), (2) black women, (1) Indian man with a giant brain, (1) mexican man, and a russian woman. I don't hesitate in putting my trust with these people, it's unheard of in the middle ranks where I live my corporate life. I'm not saying it's non-existent... by far... I'm just seeing less and less of it.

Yeah, and I was just trying to be funny, I failed miserably. Damn, half mexican american reporter type...you're all the same, raining on my parade, making me feel wh..wh..white!!!!

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"Today, war is too important to be left to politicians. They have neither the time, the training, nor the inclination for strategic thought. I can no longer sit back and allow Communist infiltration, Communist indoctrination, Communist subversion and the international Communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids."

It's all fun and games 'till someone strikes a nerve...





I'm too serioose sometimes, methinks. All though he did accuse me of being a hater.

Darn us half-mexican American journalists and our gross exaggeration of the truth! And to think, I could have made my living in the Central Valley.

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I have been formatted to fit this screen.

r66-The member who always asks WHY?

They wouldn't take your kind anyway. I think they're prejudiced towards reporters.

Whoo-hoo 1,000 post's. I want to thank God, the Academy, and all you little people that don't matter!

This has been a very interesting and informative discussion so far! Thanks everyone for your input.

From my experience, I'd say that the US is probably the most diverse society in the world in every respect and, consequently, there is more acceptance of ethnic, religious, physical and other differences here than, probably, anywhere else in the world. And this applies even more so (generally speaking) to California and, esp., to the Bay Area.

HOWEVER, and this is a big "however", among many strata of society in the US, there is still a MARKED and SIGNIFICANT racist undercurrent in people's attitudes. Probably, no more than can be expected among any population anywhere, but it exists nonetheless. I expect that the only remedy for this is time. As the world and the US open up and people become more and more aware of the world around them and interact with other races and groups, I imagine that there will be less and less of what r3port3r66 cites, and what I, personally, agree with. Basically, such attitudes stem from ignorance about the rest of the world, and this can be remedied in a number of ways--cultural exchanges, museum exhibitions, movies, cultural shows, festivals, cuisine, etc. Again, it's a matter of time. I am personally glad to be living in as culturally diverse a region as San Francisco. I doubt that you will see such cultural diversity and acceptance anywhere in the world as you see here in the Bay Area. I only hope that the Bay Area becomes a model for a successful tolerant and pacifistic society for the rest of the world and especially for the militant conservative administration in the White House.

One final point. I come, originally, from India, which is in geographical proximity to Afghanistan, but is a completely separate nation. India is a SECULAR DEMOCRACY with a diverse ethnic and religious population. This is as opposed to Pakistan, our immediate neighbor, which is an Islamist military dictatorship and Afghanistan, which was (prior to the US invasion) a radical Islamic theocracy (the Taliban). HOWEVER, after September 11, there were ANY NUMBER of incidents involving Indian nationals being persecuted and their property being vandalized. How many Americans would really be able to distinguish between an Indian national and someone of Afghan origin? Not many, and I can hardly blame them, quite frankly. Basically, the white American sees a Sikh man (from India) and, noticing the turban on his head, immediately associates him with Osama bin Laden and the turban on his head, and concludes that the Hindu Sikh from India (a secular democracy) is somehow linked with the Al Quaeda terrorist network--a co-conspirator, if you will. If the white American were to visit India, however, he would see that there is no connection at all between the Hindu Sikh and the radical Muslim from Afghanistan, and that, in fact, India has been a target of Al Quaeda sponsored terrorism (from Pakistan) for decades past. The Kashmir situation in India is directly linked to hostilities between Hindus and Muslims in India and Pakistan. But this sort of thing is hardly apparent to the average white American, and one can hardly expect Americans to really be aware of these niceties. But, on the other hand, it makes a huge difference to a lot of innocent Americans originally from the Indian subcontinent, that white Americans understand that there is a difference between the Islamic terrorist and the average Indian. I am, personally, a Christian and, as such, have no connections with terrorism anywhere in the world. But how many Americans would be able to say that their suspicions are not aroused solely because I happen to have a healthy tan on my skin (from hanging out at the beach and lap-swimming under a bright, tropical sun)? That's a question to think about!

You've spoken well, Django. However, all muslims aren't fundamentalists or potential terrorists and some christians might in fact be terrorists. Check out both sides in Northern Ireland. But I'm with you. I think it's the same problem in every country in the western world that has a lot of immigrants. This is a very big issue in Sweden too.

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The novelist does not long to see the lion eat grass. He realizes that one and the same God created the wolf and the lamb, then smiled, "seeing that his work was good".

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They had temporarily escaped the factories, the warehouses, the slaughterhouses, the car washes - they'd be back in captivity the next day but now they were out - they were wild with freedom. They weren't thinking about the slavery of poverty. Or the slavery of welfare and food stamps. The rest of us would be all right until the poor learned how to make atom bombs in their basements.

You can say this, but I would strongly urge that you not limit racism to 'white' America. To many, racism is defined as the 'white' people hating everyone else. I'm sure there is some of this, I won't try to deny it. There is, however, just as strong a current of other ethnicities disliking people because their skin is white. I am a minority because I'm an american, white male. Half the world hates me from the starting point. Even Piddy hated me for a while, until my charm eventually won him over.


Again... can we turn the glass around please? What if I were to take my family on vacation to downtown Baghdad? Those people would look at me and they would generalize that I am spawn of "great satan" and they would stone me to death in the streets.

I have NO problem with you saying that racism exists. I DO have a problem with you using the white american to define it as if that is the only place where racism exists. THAT is horsesh*t of the foulest color, my good man.

Piddzilla, I agree completely with what you say. I cite my examples to try and promote tolerance and understanding.

Sir Toose, you also make a valid point. However, the reason I emphasize racial intolerance on the part of western Europeans is that in the western world, i.e. in Europe and America, the population is predominantly western European. And let's face it--America is the only superpower in the world today while Europe is a superpower on the rise. Western European attitudes are of crucial importance to people like me. I don't deny that there is racism and xenophobia in other parts of the world. But if you were to visit Baghdad or Palestine, the most that the racist Iraqi or Palestinian would do is throw stones at you. However, on the other hand, the west has a huge arsenal of nuclear weapons which it uses to keep the peace, supposedly. So it doesn't bother me so much that an Iraqi or a Palestinian might be racist. It bothers me a lot more that an American or a European might be racist, with the huge arsenal of nuclear weapons that they have stockpiled for use at the slightest pretext. There is a lot of talk about North Korea's nuclear arsenal targeted against the US. Frankly, it strikes me as oddly humorous that a country as powerful as the US should be concerned about a tiny under-developed nation like North Korea with, what, maybe one or two ICBM's pointing towards the US (terrible though that prospect may be) while, on the other hand, the US has about 1000 times as many missiles pointing towards North Korea! If N. Korea were so foolish as to deploy its solitary missile against the American shores, they would literally be committing suicide, as the US reprisal would utterly devastate that nation.

The US literally is the only nuclear superpower left in the world today. It is such a wealthy, powerful nation, that it has become completely paranoid. The reason that it is evoking such hostility from all quarters globally is precisely because it is so wealthy and powerful--people the world over feel insecure at the prospect of a hugely powerful nation--armed to the teeth with nuclear weapons, calling itself the world's protector and claiming to act in the best interests of people at large--basically having the power to do what it pleases! Who watches the watchmen, is what comes to my mind. No wonder you see protest marches all over the world at US militarism in Iraq--you see them in Italy, Greece, France, Germany--everywhere. I think the US administration needs a serious reality check--they need to come to their senses and cease their paranoid militarism before it results in a tragedy of greater proportions than even September 11, 2001!

Just my two cents, for what it's worth.

...And that, my friend Django, is why every darn thing has to be politicized...

It just turns political almost automatically.

LOL! Yeah, you just get sucked into it without even realizing it! That's how sinister politics can be!

Correction: Doesn't use to keep the peace (except that once, with worldwide support).


oooohhh shaky, snaky ground there... the ice is cracking beneath your feet. Racism is moral at heart, apolitical if you will. It's either right or it's wrong, whatever the circumstances.

Also, you paint a picture of trigger happiness... there is no history to support that. There is a history of great restraint, though. On September 12, 2001 how many Americans do you think WANTED to start pushing buttons left and right? That pretext you speak of is pretty well handled in checks and balances.



That wealth and power is shared the world over. The economic success of the US is a codependent relationship with the rest of the world. Basically, we'd have a hard time being autonomous and the world benefits from the prosperity of this nation. BTW, there is nothing stopping almost anyone from becoming a citizen of the US and sharing in that prosperity. It's not and never has been a 'closed' club. My wife is middle eastern and I attended her citizenship ceremony many years ago... members of her whole family are now productive US citizens.

Your stance above is VERY paranoid (re-read it).
I've very much enjoyed your point of view... "what it's worth" is much... I appreciate your time and effort and look forward to kicking this and many other issues around with you.

Using nuclear weapons for deterrence is still using nuclear weapons! It's about the threat of force as opposed to the use of force--it is still using the weapons.

Okay, but its not the moral implications of racism I am concerned with here but the practical implications. I am not here to wrestle with moral issues, which, in my opinion, is best left to personal conscience and God. However, I am concerned with the practical upshot of racism--in Western Europe vs. in the Middle East.

I don't deny that the US has exercised a great deal of restraint following 9/11/01, and the people of this great nation are to be commended for that. I am also grateful for the system of checks and balances which maintain the integrity of the American society. However, the paranoid belligerency displayed by the current administration pretty much has everyone the world over on edge, and it is this nervousness that they express by protesting the US stance against Iraq.

You are right in saying that a lot of people the world over benefit from US economic prosperity, myself included. That's one of the reasons I am so opposed to the impending Gulf War--because it is potentially harmful to the US economy at large, besides being a criminal waste of human life and resources, both American and Mid-Eastern. I am also glad to be a working resident in the US--another motive for my concern regarding this insane path to war that the Bush administration seems hell-bent on pursuing. No good can come of it, in my opinion.

Not paranoid, but realistic.

I appreciate that, and same to you!

Jesus Christ! I'm going to throw up now!

Jesus Christ says: Hey, it's your prerogative to throw up, Lord Slaytan, just as it's Django's prerogative to express himself whether it makes you throw up or not!

I'm sorry man, It's just a touchy subject for me. But you're right, we're all a bunch of trigger happy racists, you should be afraid. I mean, we've proven that point already haven't we?

BTW, where are you from and how old are you?

I beg you pardon???

Anyway, a few points.

I'm fed up with the arrogant approach the Bush administration represent. I'm fed up with the french "we are the kings of Europe, US go **** yourself" attitude. And I'm fed up with the double standard crap that Germany pulls. It's like kids fighting in a playground and Saddam and Osama stands beside laughing their pants off. (Even if they would like to kill each other at the same time). This is what Osama wanted - a West World shaken to its foundations. The future of UN and NATO is threatened and the European Union, who's supposed to be united when it comes to foreign affairs, is shattered (even with this so called compromise that they've come up with). Osama must be so pleased...

I don't care what you say, this would never have happened with Clinton in office. Europe loved Clinton - they don't love Bush - and Bush (not to mention Rumsfeld) does not like Europe very much right now either. And you know what... I'm starting to think that the terrorists waited to see who got elected and when they saw it was Bush - they said GO! And after 9-11 US had the entire world's sympathy. They had the world in their hands and we were all with them, willing to go and do something. But this administration ****ed it all up, pardon my FRENCH! I've said it long ago on this board and I say it again: Bush will make this world a more insecure place to live in. And that's exactly how the terrorists want it to be.

For the first time in my life I'm actually afraid. Some fools call Saddam the new Hitler and "look what happened in the 30's when no one stopped that guy!". Saddam can't fart in the wrong direction without the americans and the brits bombing him to kingdom come. I'm not afraid of Saddam, we will deal with him in some way in due time. He's not the biggest threat to peace - the leaders of the West World are. And I heard somewhere that in the Gulf War something like 150.000 iraqies (spel.) died and 79 americans (Is this correct? Maybe someone here knows), and this used to be one of the reasons to why I was skeptical about the war. Is it really worth taking the lives of hundreds of thousands of human beings because they might be terrorists in the future? Now, however, I'm afraid because I see the friendship within the western world falling to pieces. I mean the way american journalists mock the french and the germans, and, trust me, people around here aren't very nice towards americans either. And now the countries within EU is arguing too. There's a lot of tension between France and other states, and Germany refuses to do anything at all. And these two are two of the most powerful countries in EU. And at the same time US is saying that they will attack with or without the premission from UN plus that they are going to start an economic war against Germany. It's all going to hell.... And Osama is sooo pleased. This is what happens when you let men without no contact what so ever with the people or the real life rule the world.

When it comes to racism. Firstly, it's kind of interesting that the ones here saying that whites are't racist - is in fact white. Let me ask you this: The racism that you, Toose, as a white male say you experience from non-whites. Where do you think that racism comes from? What's the origin of it?

I don't think whites per ce are more reacist than any other people. But it's a fact that White Christian Males rule this world and I think that those who rule like to keep it that way. And that's racist to me. And this is by no means unique for America.

It was a joke, dum@ss

No rebuttal. Though I don't think Bush is being arrogant.

You're wrong about this. The terrorist cells and the enabling of it all happened under Clinton's watch. He ignored the problem until it got bigger and bigger. The timing happened because Osama finally had a loaded gun. I don't think Bush in office had anything to do with it. Having said that I wonder if Gore had been elected if they'd have not attacked and just kept building a bigger arsenal so they could really waste us. And US means YOU and everyone who does not want to bow down to Allah. It's not JUST about America. To them we are all infidels and we all must convert or die. That is the only acceptable solution to them... yet we are called war mongers for responding to a very likely and viable threat.

First off, I never said whites weren't racist. There you go again Mr. All or Nothing. I said it's not as widespread as our paranoid Django says it is. Where does that racism come from? How the fukk do I know? I can't know the mind of another man. I live my life, love my kids, give back to society... racial things hardly, if ever, enter my mind. Some of you act like every white guy on the planet walks around counting how many blacks, asians, indians, etc there are while loading our guns. There is a misconception that all white men have money. What kind of sh*t is that? I lived without a roof over my head in my late teens. If someone hates me because of class envy or something they're way off track. They need to look in the mirror. If a black man hates me because a possible ancestor of mine made a possible ancestor of his a slave then it's time for that man to focus on the now and stop crying tears for the past. EVERYONE has hardship in their past. Were there no white or indian slaves?

Well, one can only speculate on why the terrorists stroke when they did. I didn't say that was in fact the reason - only that it made me think. But I don't think Clinton was anymore ignorant than Bush about the terrorist threat - BEFORE 9-11. Remember that Bush promised in his presedential campaign that he would concentrate more on domestic politics than on what goes on internationally. Of course, 9-11 changed all that. Anyway, that's pretty much a matter of what president you like the most, obviously...

Maybe the reason to why Osama and his pals terrorize US is to make all westerners muslims. US today, the world tomorrow sort of. And if I remember it correctly, pretty much everyone was okay with the decision to bomb Afghanistan, even if I personally didn't think it would wipe out terrorism. And I think we can all agree on that Saddam is not an islamic fundamentalist - he's just a crazy, egocentric dictator (with christians in his government). The only reason that he calls for Jihad is because he needs allies - he's religious when he needs to be. I think it's very important not to see things as something that they're not. Why does Saddam hate America? Because he thinks that US should mind their own business when he tries to be king of the Middle East. Why does Osama hate America? Because America = Satan.

But why does America hate Saddam? Saddam that they used to help (like the frenchmen also did)? Some "expert" on tv said something interesting (for once). It's not because US want the oil - it's because they don't want Saddam to have it. What if another nutcase, perhaps a islamic fundametalist, gained power in Saudi Arabia and started working together with Saddam? Then that region would be very powerful and very, very rich with enough oil to create a very modern army with very dangerous weapons. This, according to this "expert", is why US in fact wants to invade. Pretty understandable but at the same time a reason even harder to sell to the world community then the "mass destruction weapons" package.

Well, Mr Generalize! Did you even read this?

And I didn't say all white men had money. This is also a big reason to racism. Poor white folks who have to struggle to survive get offended when they hear about how unfair the ethnic minorities are being treated. That can easily turn into hatred and racism. And when a black or hispanic man feels hatred against you, Toose. Do you think that guy knows about your past or who you really are? No, of course not. He just sees you as a part of a group. Just like you think "They get all the grants and scholarships just because they belong to minority while I who have **** don't get anything!", he thinks "That guy would have nothing if he had my skincolor!".

So. Toose. My dear dear friend. We all know who's fault it is that we have this segregation and bitterness, right. It's society's fault. And the government's. And what do you need over there??? All together now!! SOCIALISM!!! Well, or to be a little bit more specific - socialdemocracy. That's the path, man!

Ooooh, for a while!! I thought it said "for a white"....

He he... ooops!

Yeah, I did hate you for a while! But not because you're white but because your face is brown - from being stuck up your ass for too long!!!