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Yeah well, the ones that have the biggest problems with religion are mostly religious people. Maybe you find plenty to complain about because of that you're a faithful christian.
Come off it. I try to be polite to you, but it's as if you won't have it, so instead, I'm just gonna be blunt: do you have any idea what their religion teaches? My religion doesn't have jack to do with my complaints, because there are things you would complain about, too. So, please, for your OWN sake, at least, don't throw out off-the-cuff criticisms that have no base whatsoever.

This "maybe you just complain about it because you're a Christian" stuff is beyond ridiculous. The implication is that I am so devout in my Christian beliefs that I automatically complain about anything that differs simply because I feel differently. So, just come out and say that, why don't you? And better yet, why don't you demonstrate it? Wow me with your knowledge of the Qur'an and show me how I hold an unreasonable bias against their beliefs.

Or, better yet still, you could admit that your remark was casual and really based on nothing other than wanting to have something you perceived as scalding to say. Your choice.


That's such a pointless remark. What has that to do with anything? I am a bigot because I thought Toose's remark was an expression of bigotry? Get a grip....
You really shouldn't be telling me to get a grip when you're the one making RAMPANT assumptions. This is really a trend with you, isn't it? You think you know what someone means, so you jump to conclusions and then argue with those faulty conclusions. You've done it with me before, and you did it in this thread with Toose, too.

The remark is true. Narrowminded people tend to call others narrowminded simply because they disagree with them.


So, if Toose would have said: "Gotta love them peace lovin' Arabs!", that would have been bigotry? I definately think religion and ethnical background are "included" in what could be exposed to bigotry.
Bigotry can come in two forms: it can be based on basically nothing (IE: I don't like you because you look different than I do, even though you can't really help it at all), or it can be based on something (IE: I don't like your belief system, therefore you are an altogether evil person, and I'm going to assume all sorts of things about you based on my disagreement with your beliefs).

However, it is NOT bigotry to disagree with someone...it is not bigotry to disapprove of their lifestyle or religion. It becomes bigotry when you start making assumptions about them outside of their professed beliefs and choices.

The whole thing about racism is that you're judging people on their skin, and not, as Martin Luther King put it, the "content of their character." When you judge someone by their decisions and the beliefs they follow, you are, in fact, judging them by what you see as the "content of their character." There's nothing wrong with that as long as you don't start making assumptions beyond that, and as long as you don't start seeing others with similar beliefs as identical in your head.



I am having a nervous breakdance
Originally posted by Yoda

Come off it. I try to be polite to you, but it's as if you won't have it, so instead, I'm just gonna be blunt: do you have any idea what their religion teaches?
I've studied History of Religion at my university (i.e. Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism and so on...) and I own a copy of the Quran. To be honest with you, it was a while ago and I realized that studying religion wasn't really my thing, so I don't remember that much. But we had an excellent teacher, a norwegian woman who had converted to islam, and she taught us about both Judaism and Islam with great insight and objectivity. Never once did I encounter anything warloving or hateful in her lectures. If you interpret the Quran in the right way, it's cool. If you're a fundametalist, it's dangerous. Just like with the Holy Bible.

Frankly, yes, sometimes I can be quite rude (always with a wink of the eye, though... ), but I don't see what was so unpolite with that comment. If you put a christian fundamentalist in the same room as an islamic fundametalist and compare it to a room with a secularized christian and a secularized muslim. In which room is the risk of a fight or at least a heated argument the highest, would you say?

This "maybe you just complain about it because you're a Christian" stuff is beyond ridiculous. The implication is that I am so devout in my Christian beliefs that I automatically complain about anything that differs simply because I feel differently. So, just come out and say that, why don't you? And better yet, why don't you demonstrate it? Wow me with your knowledge of the Qur'an and show me how I hold an unreasonable bias against their beliefs.
How can I do that when I don't know what in it you're so upset about? But for every quote you take out of context I'm sure I can find a quote or passage in the Bible that's outrageous or totally out of time. Do you interpret the Bible letter by letter? If not, neither should you do so with the Quran. If you do, you're a fundamentalist and as nuts as Bin Laden.

Or, better yet still, you could admit that your remark was casual and really based on nothing other than wanting to have something you perceived as scalding to say. Your choice.
Well, as always, I think I chose wisely.

You really shouldn't be telling me to get a grip when you're the one making RAMPANT assumptions. This is really a trend with you, isn't it? You think you know what someone means, so you jump to conclusions and then argue with those faulty conclusions. You've done it with me before, and you did it in this thread with Toose, too.
The problem is that I don't have a clue what you mean. You asked me to define "bigotry". Well, I did. Then I asked you to define it, but all I got was clever twists with words. That's why I thought it had nothing to do with anything.

The trend with me is perhaps that I attack what I think is erroneous and I try to say exactly what I think without hurting someone's feelings. And speaking about jumping to conclusions... You accuse Islam of being a "bad religion" (great band by the way) but you won't have me pointing out the problematics in saying that, and also some possible reasons for you to say that. Because then I'm attacking you personally.

The remark is true. Narrowminded people tend to call others narrowminded simply because they disagree with them.
Well, that will just have to stand for you. If I disagree with someone I believe I am always able to motivate why I disagree with that person. If you think that's being narrowminded, I strongly disagree with you - and according to you being narrowminded as well.

Bigotry can come in two forms: it can be based on basically nothing (IE: I don't like you because you look different than I do, even though you can't really help it at all), or it can be based on something (IE: I don't like your belief system, therefore you are an altogether evil person, and I'm going to assume all sorts of things about you based on my disagreement with your beliefs).
Right. And not liking muslims because they're muslims must therefore be a case of bigotry.

However, it is NOT bigotry to disagree with someone...it is not bigotry to disapprove of their lifestyle or religion. It becomes bigotry when you start making assumptions about them outside of their professed beliefs and choices.
So, where does that put the comment: "You gotta love them peace lovin' moslems"? If Toose had meant it the way I first thought he meant it (i.e. "all muslims want war") - isn't that to make assumptions about them outside their professed beliefs?

The whole thing about racism is that you're judging people on their skin, and not, as Martin Luther King put it, the "content of their character." When you judge someone by their decisions and the beliefs they follow, you are, in fact, judging them by what you see as the "content of their character." There's nothing wrong with that as long as you don't start making assumptions beyond that, and as long as you don't start seeing others with similar beliefs as identical in your head.
Racism and bigotry is not the same thing. I actually went as far as looking it up... In my dictionary "bigotry" means: "fanatism, narrowmindness".... In fact, another dictionary actually explained "bigotry" with: "Excessively devout, religiously narrowminded". There you have it.

Anyway, I just want to point out again that I do NOT think Toose is a bigot in any way. It may sound like that to anyone that hasn't followed this discussion from the beginning up til now.
__________________
The novelist does not long to see the lion eat grass. He realizes that one and the same God created the wolf and the lamb, then smiled, "seeing that his work was good".

--------

They had temporarily escaped the factories, the warehouses, the slaughterhouses, the car washes - they'd be back in captivity the next day but
now they were out - they were wild with freedom. They weren't thinking about the slavery of poverty. Or the slavery of welfare and food stamps. The rest of us would be all right until the poor learned how to make atom bombs in their basements.



Originally posted by Toose
Thanks Steve,
I always feel less nazi like when some of you leftish folks agree with me. BTW, weren't you moving here to sunny H-Town (Houston) sometime soon?
Houston is now a gleam in my fathers' eye. Enron went under, so did my parents' plans, as the old man worked many long, grueling hours for them. Looks like I'm here in Virginia for awhile, at least until college.
__________________
**** the Lakers!



Originally posted by Steve


Houston is now a gleam in my fathers' eye. Enron went under, so did my parents' plans, as the old man worked many long, grueling hours for them. Looks like I'm here in Virginia for awhile, at least until college.
Oh man... sorry to hear about his troubles.

I always thought that if my current gig fell through I would pursue a career at Enron. I've done quite a bit of business with them in the past and was always pleasantly surprised at their quickness in paying bills etc... I was completely shocked when all that went down.

What's your pop up to now?

The trend with me is perhaps that I attack what I think is erroneous and I try to say exactly what I think without hurting someone's feelings
I've come to the conclusion that you really mean this. I do believe you are sincere now that I've had the chance to get to know you a bit better. Your argument style is different (I'm chalking it up to your being in a different country) and comes across as a little condescending at times. There is nothing wrong with your style at all, it just may take some time for people to get used to it.

Anyways... you're a good guy despite your wacky beliefs!



I am having a nervous breakdance
Originally posted by Toose

I've come to the conclusion that you really mean this. I do believe you are sincere now that I've had the chance to get to know you a bit better. Your argument style is different (I'm chalking it up to your being in a different country) and comes across as a little condescending at times. There is nothing wrong with your style at all, it just may take some time for people to get used to it.

Anyways... you're a good guy despite your wacky beliefs!
Oh, the love between us....

Well, my american girlfriend's always telling me that I'm outspoken (which is the reson to why she loves me AND why we fight so much ). I've learned that my way of debating is slightly different from the american way. You often try to keep a polite and civilized way when arguing and maybe I have mistaken that as a way of avoiding the real issue. At the same time I have been really surprised sometimes over how upset I have made people here when I really thought I was just presenting facts in a straightforward way.

Well, now you know that I don't mean to mock anyone... It's just my rude swedish way!



Originally posted by Toose
Oh man... sorry to hear about his troubles.

I always thought that if my current gig fell through I would pursue a career at Enron. I've done quite a bit of business with them in the past and was always pleasantly surprised at their quickness in paying bills etc... I was completely shocked when all that went down.

What's your pop up to now?
Enron was a disaster, wasn't it? A big problem were the severance packages given to the non-executives - my old man got something like 2 or 3 grand for 6 months of work (until Jesse Jackson lobbied and got another thousand for everyone). Meanwhile, I believe a lot of the people in higher positions got away with hundreds of thousands and even millions.

Things are going well now. He's got his own management consulting firm, and he's home a lot. That's pretty nice, it takes a weight off of my mom's shoulders, because there are 4 dependents in the house (including myself) and she needs all the help she can get. Moneywise, things are going well. And my dad has turned into a big supporter of Bush in spite of the Enron mess - he says he needs the tax cut to put his kids through college.



Originally posted by Steve
And my dad has turned into a big supporter of Bush in spite of the Enron mess - he says he needs the tax cut to put his kids through college.
I hate to start another squabble (wait, no I don't ), but why would it be "in spite"? How is Bush responsible?



Originally posted by Steve


Moneywise, things are going well. And my dad has turned into a big supporter of Bush in spite of the Enron mess - he says he needs the tax cut to put his kids through college.
May I quote you on that?


Seriously, I'm glad all is well. I'm a firm believer that everything happens for a reason... always have been. Hey, props to your dad for turning a potentially suck situation into an opportunity... the world needs more guys like that.



I am having a nervous breakdance
Originally posted by Steve


Moneywise, things are going well. And my dad has turned into a big supporter of Bush in spite of the Enron mess - he says he needs the tax cut to put his kids through college.
Or you could come to Sweden. Here college is free.