What Makes a Movie Great? (reflection, not debate)

To me a great movie is just a movie that I watched that produced a powerful effect on me. Powerful in the sense of being very memorable and affecting experience. The method to achieve that greatness varies a lot between movies.

Star Wars is a great movie to me because it's strong atmosphere and broad sense of imagination that produced a very memorable and "magical" experience. It's a modern mythological tale, essentially. While Tarkovsky's Stalker is a great movie for me for actually similar reasons (powerful atmosphere and strong sense of imagination) but it's atmosphere is far denser and darker, but I can see there are strong similarities.

Usually movies considered great that I disliked it's was not because I found they were bad movies but because I found myself mostly uninterested in their genre typical characteristics (Casablanca, Chinatown, Goddard's first film (whose title I forgot)).

I cannot recall a movie that I personally found it great that's not generally regarded as great.

Indeed. Movies like Winter Soldier and The Avengers are regarded as masterpieces of the "genre" of Hollywood blockbusters but fall far below what movies can do.

There are several Hollywood blockbuster movies that I found great, however, Apocalypse Now from 1979 cost the same as The Empire Strikes Back from 1980, it's technically a Hollywood blockbuster movie. 2001 A Space Odyssey was the highest grossing film in 1968, technically again a Hollywood blockbuster movie.

Sure ^^

It seems like great and not-great are not measured along the same axis as good and bad.

I think they are, great movies are exceptionally good movies. Meaning, being exceptionally good in at least doing something it proposes to do. A bad movie is a movie that fails to do what it sets out to do.

For me it depends on the genre. Most Action-Science Fiction-Fantasy pictures I don't expect a fantastic story as I more so wanna delve into the action, lore, etc (Though don't mistake that for me being alright with a horrid story, but an alright one works for me). When it comes to Dramas on the other hand I expect a great story because most of the time that is what they have going for them. Also dialogue is CRUCIAL in every film. If the dialogue is horrid I just get taken out of the experience. Unless its a comedy or a parody, then I don't expect great dialogue either I just expect good laughs, a great story is just the cherry on top.

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In my mind - at the core - suspension of disbelief and emotional connection.

Suspension of disbelief is necessary for almost every movie and emotional connection discounts a lot of movies.

Is that just American movies though? Most movies are foreign movies no matter where you're from. And isn't drama the largest genre in terms of sheer numbers? I don't have to suspend disbelief for most movies I watch. I only have to suspend disbelief for Hollywood Blockbusters, and I generally dislike having to do so.

It's necessary for dramas too. You may not think about it as much in real-life scenarios, but it still applies especially when it comes to questioning the realism of acting, character motivations, and character actions.

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If you're interested, Omni, take a look at my film diary thread and let me know if you still think so about the movies I watch.

Even before checking the thread I seriously doubt you make a habit of watching movies that specifically break the fourth wall predictably enough to where willing suspension of disbelief isn't even a thing anymore.


Some TV Tropes reading for ya:

Continued: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...ionOfDisbelief

Continued: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...aksFromReality


An "Acceptable Break From Reality", for example, could merely be that Nobody Poops.

I watch mostly arthouse, indie, and foreign films, and more old films than new ones. For one thing I love Hyper Realism, like Gus Van Sant's work.

I've heard the whole "nobody poops" thing before. Well even though most realistic movies don't show anyone ever going to the bathroom, it's not that they don't, it's just that they do it off camera and between scenes because it isn't a part of what the film chooses to focus on. I don't think that's suspension of disbelief.

If realistic movies touch on a subject I just happen to know a lot about I may notice something is innacurate and just not let it bother me. I don't really suspend my disbelief. I just notice it and move on. I don't think a mistake means the movie requires you to suspend disbelief. That's not the same as having content they know is unrealistic and just doing it anyway because they want to.

As I said it applies to acting too. You have to be willing to suspend your disbelief that the actors are who they say they are.

Another acceptable break from reality could simply be the camera, where it's positioned and how it moves. In real life you can't see people checking their mail from INSIDE the mailbox and you can't typically get a better view of something by elevating a good 30 feet in the air.

So because the most realistic movie isn't realistic to the nth degree, Hollywood Blockbusters can't be criticised for being extremely unrealistic? Is that the implication?

Not at all, there are Hollywood tropes worth criticising, certainly ones to do with realism, but if you don't like extending your suspension of disbelief to sci-fi or fantasy settings, then it's certainly not just Hollywood that's gonna turn you off.

Some of the flaws you noted with Star Wars ARE legitimte criticisms, but suspension of disbelief doesn't genuinely begin with the fact that it's a sci-fi/fantasy movie.

These don't feel directed at me because they don't apply to me. It sounds like you're talking about something hypothetical and moot anyway.

This happens every time I criticise a Hollywood Blockbuster and people try defending them.

I don't have a problem extending my suspension of disbelief to the setting. I have no problem suspending disbelief for hyperdrives and lightsabers. I have a problem suspending disbelief for extreme cold causing a living creature to drop dead instantly. Isn't that pretty close to the example in the article you posted, about the monster having a heart attack?

Sure, that's fair criticism. It's arguable though in that it's assumed Tontons are arctic creatures, but they lack the protections their human riders have. My personal gripe with the scene is that the protagonists, who I'm supposed to LIKE, have no apparent qualms saddling and sacrificing these creatures in the first place (though that's more to do with the character portrayal than any particular brand of realism).

If that sort of thing pushed your threshhold for what you're willing to accept, then there's little arguing it. At some point though somebody has to decide what's "nitpicking" though.

Is it nit picking when there are dozens of equally ridiculous things in the movie? And it isn't consistent within it's own world because the Wampa is a very noisy creature but it sneaks up on Luke like a ninja. What about the creature in the cave on the asteroid surviving in space with no atmosphere or food except for a few wombats? It's ridiculous that those things are there in the first place or that the creature has a stomach it's food can walk around in without getting digested. I could just go on and on. There are so many absurdities. It doesn't push me past my threshold of enjoying it, but I can't think of them as great movies.

Remember the fight between Obi Wan and Vader. The slow feeble pathetic sword fight is down right laughable.

But there are still a few things about Star Wars that I love. I do love the ship designs and costumes. Especially the B-Wing. But my favorite thing about Star Wars is Boba Fett. He was a cold calculated killer who didn't waste time with words, but used action. His outfit is one of the coolest things I've ever seen in my life. And I even like the fact that he died. Even though they brought him back in the books, those books were badly written, and there is no way he would have survived even in the circumstances they gave. Other than the movies, there are only a few portrayals of him that I thought did him justice. Most augtors just can't understand his cold calculating personality.

Not necessarily, too many little things can hurt too.

You mean out in the snow? That's a relatively common trope, but you could argue that the ambient outdoor noise and snow muffled it's approach. Stuff like that really doesn't bother me at all unless we're talkin' World War Z types of surprises where a vehicle can jump the characters despite necessarily crashing through several cars silently to get to them.

I'm not sure if they're called "wombats", but suffice it to say it's a creature we're unfamiliar with. Who's to say it can't survive in space?

That's a common trope in movies too. Pinocchio does the same thing although with a tad more leniency due to it's fantasy nature.

It's worth mentioning that there are obvious other smaller things living in it, so again this may not be all that unusual for this particular creature.

That's your prerogative. You've given generally fair reasons for your dislike.

I always thought Obi-Wan sacrificing himself was pretty bogus. Yeah, Ben, "more powerful than you could ever imagine", feel like lending that power to saving the galaxy?

I think those are generally much flimsier reasons for liking Star Wars than say... the humor, Han Solo's character arc, Luke's relationship to Vader, the operatic scale, the music, sure Boba Fett looks cool, but I dunno, he never really did much in the movie.


I think Jango Fett outcooled him pretty well in Attack of the Clones.

Arguing for Jango Fetts's feeble, dumb ass non-character over the inimitable bad assness of Boba Fett and his four lines over two movies is a non-starter, dead-end, full-stop. Your only recourse, your only possible out, is Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 4