The New AND Improved MoFo Top 100 Films of All-Time

[genesis_pig]

I had the best/worst idea - play a drinking game where you read through this whole thread and every time someone talks about how a certain film should be higher/lower/not on the list/whatever, take a drink. This should probably be attempted once the full list is done.

Great Idea..

Also another idea, everytime HK calls any film CRAP!!!... I need to stock up on more drinks.

[Iroquois]

Also any time somebody says something along the lines of "it doesn't matter where a film places because this is a popular vote", take a drink.

[honeykid]

Why not just drink when you want to and stop dicking around?

[Iroquois]

Where's the fun in that?

[Harry Lime]

Also any time somebody says something along the lines of "it doesn't matter where a film places because this is a popular vote", take a drink.

You'd be wasted in no time.

[genesis_pig]

Why not just drink when you want to and stop dicking around?

Do that too often already..

[meatwadsprite]

Well for starters the film seems to go back and forth between showing scenes that may justify racist attitudes and other scenes where there are moments of anti racism. But then such scenes and later succeeded by moments that justify them again. It's very messy in that sense and I don't think I agree with what I think it's trying to say. Sort of reminds me of Crash in that sense.

I also don't believe in the relationship between neo nazi Norton and his black inmate. I think it's the lack of a sense of time we get, but their moments of bonding seem way too forced and trivial for Norton to just turn his back on his beliefs.

It is well acted though.

My original thoughts were that the movie was full blown racist. Coming back to it, it preaches that racism is bad - while being a vehicle for over the top hilarity racism. In a line of bulls**t movies about racism, anything this blatant and well performed can't be anything short of great.

[honeykid]

Where's the fun in that?
If drinking isn't enough fun for you, then maybe you shouldn't be drinking.

[Iroquois]

If doing nothing but drinking is enough fun for you, maybe you shouldn't be drinking either.

[planet news]

If P, then Q.

[The Prestige]

Many people wont even consider Memento to be on their top 50.. but you have it as your #1.... So I feel American History X deserves its place every bit as your liking for Memento.

I think these comments are just personal opinions & not the truth.. American History X is a good film, not great but it's entertaining..


Movies like American History X??
You have Man on Fire at #1 & Wedding Crashers at #5.
Most won't even have those films on their Top 1000. But it's a matter of personal opinion.. & we respect that..

Yeah..thing is genesis, what does Memento have to do with it? We're not talking about how we all feel about Memento, we're talking about American History X. It's all good that you like the film and all, but I don't really see anything entertaining about it. Each to their own though.

[genesis_pig]

Each to their own though.

That's exactly my point..

I Like Memento, but I also like American History X... & I Hate Wedding Crashers...

You said it doesn't belong in this thread, just cause it wasn't entertaining enough for you.. or maybe cause it was too confusing for you...

Stating you don't like the film or calling it bad is one thing, but saying that a film that many here favoured doesn't belong here is really nonsense...

People should really get this, This is not each one's individual Top 100 but a collective of everyone's list..

I have tried seeing many movies I haven't seen from the list so far, Raging Bull is one, it's a nice film... But it will never make my Top 100.. Not even my favourite film, just like Goodfellas.
I rate them both 7/10.. but my favourite films they are not... But I won't go on to say, They don't belong in this thread...

[Yoda]

I think it's assumed in a comment like "this doesn't belong on this list" that it's just his opinion. I don't think he's pretending to speak for anyone else. I think it's just a simple way of saying he disagrees with the inclusion. Hopefully. :)

[genesis_pig]

I think it's assumed in a comment like "this doesn't belong on this list" that it's just his opinion. I don't think he's pretending to speak for anyone else. I think it's just a simple way of saying he disagrees with the inclusion. Hopefully. :)


Well, he need to put it better next time!!! :mad:
j/k Prestige..

[WBadger]

30. The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly (1966, Leone)

http://unrealitymag.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugyl.jpg

http://www.flickchart.com/Assets/Posters/1966/posters/good_the_bad_and_the_ugly.jpg (http://www.moviegoods.com/affiliate2/adClick.asp?affiliateID=2096&adID=79&opt1=TI&str1=The+Good%2c+the+Bad+and+the+Ugly+1966)

Total Points Earned: 78
Compared to Previous List: http://unassistedsports.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/Up-Arrow.jpg 40 spots

[meatwadsprite]

shoot him

[Yoda]

Woohoo! Was hoping it would get just a shade higher, but I'll take it.

[wintertriangles]

could be higher, but at least it's above forrest gump

[genesis_pig]

could be higher, but at least it's above forrest gump

But what if it ends up under Wedding Crashers?

[DexterRiley]

An open question to veteran Mofo's :

Thats a pretty wild surge, up 40 spots since the last compilation.

The question is, what do you think is the prime cause of certain films flying up, falling down, or appearing for the 1st time?

has the median age of active posters varied much over the years?

[Brodinski]

Like Yoda, I too was hoping it to be up a little higher, though I can't say much to that sentiment as I didn't submit my top 100. Anyway, this is one of the greatest films of all time with arguably the greatest score ever.

[Yoda]

I don't think there's much to analyze in terms of big swings. The previous list is quite old by now, and we're dealing with a small enough number of people (and possibly fewer people the last time out) that it doesn't take a lot to swing it.

[WBadger]

14 more lists this time around than last Top 100.

Hopefully, after seeing this list that more people will contribute to the next list.

[Yoda]

I think they will, Badger. And hopefully I'll be able to get off my butt next time and we can put together a good formula incorporating lots of things. Odds are I won't be getting married this time next year, so the outlook on that front is good. :D

[WBadger]

29. Vertigo (1958, Hitchcock)

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Fqt5rCXgtxQ/THKLGGBo6DI/AAAAAAAAABA/O2A_QbmkU68/s1600/vertigo-1.jpg

http://www.flickchart.com/Assets/Posters/1958/posters/6AE2473940-ee4b.jpg (http://www.moviegoods.com/affiliate2/adClick.asp?affiliateID=2096&adID=79&opt1=TI&str1=Vertigo+1958)http://www.flickchart.com/Assets/Posters/1958/posters/vertigo.jpg (http://www.moviegoods.com/affiliate2/adClick.asp?affiliateID=2096&adID=79&opt1=TI&str1=Vertigo+1958)http://www.flickchart.com/Assets/Posters/1958/posters/6AE2473940-51e0.jpg (http://www.moviegoods.com/affiliate2/adClick.asp?affiliateID=2096&adID=79&opt1=TI&str1=Vertigo+1958)

Total Points Earned: 83
Compared to Previous List: http://unassistedsports.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/Up-Arrow.jpg 45 spots

[Brodinski]

Definitely has its spot here. I don't consider it to be Hitch's best, but it comes damn close to Psycho, my personal favourite. I guess this will be the highest ranked Hitchcock film, as Psycho, North By Northwest and Rear Window are all ranked lower.

[DexterRiley]

it would have been ranked lower, but it was afraid to fall

;)

[nebbit]

:love: Vertigo

[The Prestige]

Top film. I wouldn't have it this high personally and I prefer Psycho and Rear Window myself to this, but it's a great so I can understand it.

[rauldc14]

I love Vertigo, but like Prestige, I do prefer Psycho and Rear Window (also North by Northwest and Dial M for Murder) to it.

[rauldc14]

Many people wont even consider Memento to be on their top 50.. but you have it as your #1.... So I feel American History X deserves its place every bit as your liking for Memento.

I think these comments are just personal opinions & not the truth.. American History X is a good film, not great but it's entertaining..

Then just cause respected movie guys like Mark says something about removing under 30 voters, this guy jumps to his own defense...



Movies like American History X??
You have Man on Fire at #1 & Wedding Crashers at #5.
Most won't even have those films on their Top 1000. But it's a matter of personal opinion.. & we respect that..


I still don't understand why more people don't like Man on Fire but I'm not going to argue. It's a great movie. Wedding Crashers is obviously a guilty pleasure. By the way, my top 10 is my 10 favorites, not necessarily 10 best.

[DexterRiley]

which man on fire incidentally?

the Scott Glenn one is largely forgotten, which is a shame.

I've been meanen to pick it up on DVD for a few years now, would love to watch it back to back with Denzels Cresee.

[genesis_pig]

I still don't understand why more people don't like Man on Fire but I'm not going to argue. It's a great movie. Wedding Crashers is obviously a guilty pleasure. By the way, my top 10 is my 10 favorites, not necessarily 10 best.

My point was about you saying something about not voting for "movies like American History X"...

[rauldc14]

either you like movies like that or you don't, not much in between.

[WBadger]

28. Terminator 2: Judgment Day (1991, Cameron)

http://blog.newsok.com/nerdage/files/2009/05/terminator2-blu-ray.jpg

http://www.flickchart.com/Assets/Posters/1991/posters/98B6BEAD97-2088.jpg (http://www.moviegoods.com/affiliate2/adClick.asp?affiliateID=2096&adID=79&opt1=TI&str1=Terminator+2%3a+Judgment+Day+1991)http://www.flickchart.com/Assets/Posters/1991/posters/98B6BEAD97-7029.jpg (http://www.moviegoods.com/affiliate2/adClick.asp?affiliateID=2096&adID=79&opt1=TI&str1=Terminator+2%3a+Judgment+Day+1991)http://www.flickchart.com/Assets/Posters/1991/posters/98B6BEAD97-a3b4.jpg (http://www.moviegoods.com/affiliate2/adClick.asp?affiliateID=2096&adID=79&opt1=TI&str1=Terminator+2%3a+Judgment+Day+1991)

Total Points Earned: 84
Compared to Previous List: http://baseballevolution.com/images/up_arrow.jpg 61 spots

[wintertriangles]

61 spots damn

[Yoda]

:up: Love this freakin' movie. There's a few goofy parts I cringe at, but the rest of it's fantastic, and the effects actually look decent almost 20 years later, which is insane.

[honeykid]

This is a little higher than I thought it'd be. I agree with Yoda that the effects still hold up today, which is to Cameron's credit. I like this, but I'm always bored with it by the end and just want it to finish.

[The Prestige]

It's a good entry for a terrfic ground breaking action sci fi flick. I prefer the first one, but not by much.

[Caitlyn]

It's a good entry for a terrfic ground breaking action sci fi flick. I prefer the first one, but not by much.

I love them both... but tend to lean more toward II... the special effects were awesome and Sarah went from a cowering wimp to an in your face kick-asser...

[rauldc14]

call me cuckoo but I've yet to see any of the Terminators in full.

[DexterRiley]

I like this, but I'm always bored with it by the end and just want it to finish.


You been talkin to my Wife have you now?


er

nm.

[nebbit]

:love: Terminator 2

[The Prestige]

I love them both... but tend to lean more toward II... the special effects were awesome and Sarah went from a cowering wimp to an in your face kick-asser...

Yeah, I did like that development of her character, must admit. And it was a very convincingly transition which I think is pretty much down to Linda Hamilton being a great actor. Plus a chick doing pull ups (the hardest upper body exercise ever) = ownage.

[Brodinski]

Plus a chick doing pull ups (the hardest upper body exercise ever) = ownage.

I salute your knowledge of fitness.

[The Prestige]

Why thank you sir. Kind of had to know about stuff like that as the sports I did involved these kinds of things. Always amazed when people can do more than 20 or more of those.

[WBadger]

27. Dr. Strangelove: Or How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb (1964, Kubrick)

http://blogs.creativeloafing.com/theclog/files/2009/09/dr-strangelove.jpg

http://www.flickchart.com/Assets/Posters/1964/posters/dr_strangelove.jpg (http://www.moviegoods.com/affiliate2/adClick.asp?affiliateID=2096&adID=79&opt1=TI&str1=Dr.+Strangelove+1964)http://www.flickchart.com/Assets/Posters/1964/posters/E02A84753A-a549.jpg (http://www.moviegoods.com/affiliate2/adClick.asp?affiliateID=2096&adID=79&opt1=TI&str1=Dr.+Strangelove+1964)

Total Points Earned: 90
Compared to Previous List: http://baseballevolution.com/images/down_arrow.jpg 13 spots

[wintertriangles]

yay :highfive:

[rauldc14]

As stated before, I just couldn't understand the appreciation for this film. But everybody loves it, consider me an outlier. Just before my time I guess.

[planet news]

More like ahead of your time, man. :cool:

Ahead of our time, a.k.a. Kubrick.

[genesis_pig]

This movie made me respect Kubrick on a whole different level...

[wintertriangles]

as stated before, i just couldn't understand the appreciation for this film. But everybody loves it, consider me an outlier. Just before my time i guess.
you just dun been kubrick'd

[WBadger]

26. A Clockwork Orange (1971, Kubrick)

http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd155/jose9e/TLC10002010/clockwork.jpg

http://www.flickchart.com/Assets/Posters/1971/posters/clockwork_orange.jpg (http://www.moviegoods.com/affiliate2/adClick.asp?affiliateID=2096&adID=79&opt1=TI&str1=A+Clockwork+Orange+1971)http://www.flickchart.com/Assets/Posters/1971/posters/D2207C5112-51c8.jpg (http://www.moviegoods.com/affiliate2/adClick.asp?affiliateID=2096&adID=79&opt1=TI&str1=A+Clockwork+Orange+1971)http://www.flickchart.com/Assets/Posters/1971/posters/clockwork_orange_ver2.jpg (http://www.moviegoods.com/affiliate2/adClick.asp?affiliateID=2096&adID=79&opt1=TI&str1=A+Clockwork+Orange+1971)

Total Points Earned: 93
Compared to Previous List: http://baseballevolution.com/images/down_arrow.jpg 14 spots

[genesis_pig]

#26?? Not fair!!

[WBadger]

FACT: A Clockwork Orange and Dr. Strangelove were paired together one right after another on the previous list as well.

[wintertriangles]

so, like, are the rest of the films all Kubrick, because I would be cool with that

[genesis_pig]

I think 2001 should be in the Top 10... Just guessing.

[honeykid]

so, like, are the rest of the films all Kubrick, because I would be cool with that
No, that would be the worst list in the history of this site. :D

[DexterRiley]

so, like, are the rest of the films all Kubrick, because I would be cool with that

I think I'll watch Capricorn one tonight.

thanks for the inspiration!! ;)

[genesis_pig]

I think I'll watch Capricorn one tonight.

thanks for the inspiration!! ;)

What's that got to do with Kubrick?... Is it something to with my signature quote??

[The Prestige]

A Clockwork Orange is probably the only Kubrick film I would rate highly. It's a terrific film, superbly funny in the black humour department and visionary in it's depiction of a dystopian world. I also feel it's, ironically, the most emotionally engaging of Kubrick's films, which is a tough thing to say considering DeLarge is, for lack of a better term, a deranged prick. It was difficult not to feel for him though in the 2nd half of the film.



More like ahead of your time, man. :cool:

Ahead of our time, a.k.a. Kubrick.


Definitely ahead of our time, without a doubt. But only on a technical level. Kubrick was off the charts as far as techniques are involved, but 90% of his films lacked any emotion connection with his protagonists. At least for me, and that's probably the most important aspect of any film. You don't have to like the character and you don't have to out right hate the character, but there has to be an emotional core of some sort.

It's interesting though, because a lot of people criticise Nolan film's for being 'cold' 'cynical' and 'devoid of emotion' but that couldn't be further from the truth. I would say you can argue that to a certain degree with Inception, but even then he still tries to inject some sort of humanity into it, even if it doesn't quite come across.

[LuDiNaToR]

i think fight club could take number 1 spot here.

[The Prestige]

i think fight club could take number 1 spot here.

I hope it doesn't. It's a very good film but jesus christ.

[LuDiNaToR]

I hope it doesn't. It's a very good film but jesus christ.

haha u never know ;)

[nebbit]

One of my favourites :yup:

[wintertriangles]

but 90% of his films lacked any emotion connection with his protagonists.I disagree completely.

In The Killing you were connected with two of the heist men, especially the one with the cheating wife. In Paths Of Glory, Kirk Douglas' character. Lolita is filled with emotion. Dr. Strangelove is a satire so caring for all these people it mocks would be incredibly odd. In 2001 you relate to everyone you can because of the film's displacement from your comfortableness. I don't think you're supposed to care about anyone in Clockwork Orange except for the victims, and you even care for Alex when he becomes a victim at the end. In The Shining, you're more worried about your own sanity for after the film. In Full Metal Jacket you care about everyone, even Private Pile. In Eyes Wide Shut you can pick to care for either Tom or Nicole, depending on your perception of their relationship.

So yeah, he's full of emotion, and has the mastery to lose it whenever it stings the most

[Caitlyn]

call me cuckoo but I've yet to see any of the Terminators in full.


Cuckoo!


:D



You really should see I and II...

[Thursday Next]

i think fight club could take number 1 spot here.

What, again? I doubt it, actually. I like it a lot still but it's dropped out of my top 20 and I imagine it's the same for a few others as well.

[Yoda]

I think Fight Club will be in the top 10-15 or so. But don't forget, we've got a thread for discussing just such a thing:

Which film will be #1 on the MoFo Top 100? (http://www.movieforums.com/community/showthread.php?t=23590)

[PumaMan]

i think fight club could take number 1 spot here.

Oh I hope not. (In my best Jose Jimenez voice.)

Reference: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7aEKo-tbs0

[The Prestige]

I disagree completely.

In The Killing you were connected with two of the heist men, especially the one with the cheating wife. In Paths Of Glory, Kirk Douglas' character. Lolita is filled with emotion. Dr. Strangelove is a satire so caring for all these people it mocks would be incredibly odd. In 2001 you relate to everyone you can because of the film's displacement from your comfortableness. I don't think you're supposed to care about anyone in Clockwork Orange except for the victims, and you even care for Alex when he becomes a victim at the end. In The Shining, you're more worried about your own sanity for after the film. In Full Metal Jacket you care about everyone, even Private Pile. In Eyes Wide Shut you can pick to care for either Tom or Nicole, depending on your perception of their relationship.

So yeah, he's full of emotion, and has the mastery to lose it whenever it stings the most

Well this is all subjectively speaking, obviously. You can make a case of Lolita being one of his more emotional films, but the others..nah. They are pretty much critiques of society and the emphasis is on the way of the world, not about human relationships and what not. To quote Christopher...Walken ;) in True Romance , it's often a case of show and tell with Kubrick.

He wants to tell us everything but not show us nothing in regards to human connectivity and how relationships are formed. It's been a long ass time since i've seen Eyes Wide Shut but I don't remember it being very captivating as far as emotion is concerned. My point was that Kubrick's technical brilliance overshadowed his any connection with the characters, and I think that most of the films you listed confirms that, specially The Shining and Dr Strangelove.

[Harry Lime]

They are pretty much critiques of society and the emphasis is on the way of the world...

...and this isn't as valid when it comes to considering the greatest works of art.

http://homepage.mac.com/dmhart/WarArt/Picasso/Guernica/Guernica.JPG

[wintertriangles]

He wants to tell us everything but not show us nothing in regards to human connectivity and how relationships are formed. It's been a long ass time since i've seen Eyes Wide Shut but I don't remember it being very captivating as far as emotion is concerned. My point was that Kubrick's technical brilliance overshadowed his any connection with the characters, and I think that most of the films you listed confirms that, specially The Shining and Dr Strangelove. The Shining and Dr Strangelove was meant to be that way, so obviously. And you forget that his ability to displace himself from his own characters was the only thing that allowed all of his films to be so psychological and more than just entertaining. Eyes Wide Shut was very emotional if you can relate to it because Kubrick shows it in an obtuse way that makes you cringe at your own past. Connection to the protagonist is less important than rearranging consciousness

[genesis_pig]

Full Metal Jacket... -loads of emotions & loads of emotional connections with the protagonist.

[Fiscal]

I agree very much with winter regarding Eyes Wide Shut. Even not relating to the film much I can't see how you can call it emotionless, the film is a huge emotional struggle between Kidman and Cruise whether its their past, dreams, present feelings, or future motives.

[mark f]

I know many people who claim they never cry at movies, but I find it hard to believe every time I watch the finale of Paths of Glory.

[The Prestige]

The Shining and Dr Strangelove was meant to be that way, so obviously. And you forget that his ability to displace himself from his own characters was the only thing that allowed all of his films to be so psychological and more than just entertaining. Eyes Wide Shut was very emotional if you can relate to it because Kubrick shows it in an obtuse way that makes you cringe at your own past. Connection to the protagonist is less important than rearranging consciousness

I dunno mate, when you say that some of those films were meant to be that way it only reinforces the idea that he was a technical wizard more than anything. The fact that they were meant to be that way doesn't say much to me other than the conception of those films gave him a bit more leway in the lack of emotion department. I guess maybe you get more out of those films than I do. Have to disagree with your last sentence too mate. I think every film's success depends on your emotion connection with the character, whether that connection is negative or not, but relating to ones experience is almost as vital too, but not quite. I think there are a lot of horror films where you may not really be able to relate to the situation the character is in, but prior and during the potentially violent journey, you are brought into their lives.

[The Prestige]

I agree very much with winter regarding Eyes Wide Shut. Even not relating to the film much I can't see how you can call it emotionless, the film is a huge emotional struggle between Kidman and Cruise whether its their past, dreams, present feelings, or future motives.

Yeah but you have to remember that it is how you as a viewer connect with that emotion. Remember that depicting an emotional struggle or response is a lot different to feeling it. I rarely feel any emotion when watching those films, and while some may try to convey it, I don't feel it and I think that reflects on Kubrick's lack of interest in those aspects of filmmaking. But like I always say, each to their own. :)

[Fiscal]

Okay, so we can agree that Eyes Wide Shut attempts to convey an emotional struggle, right? You just didn't connect?

Seems like you are saying Kubrick uses his technical expertise and omits emotion. Eyes Wide Shut is without a doubt an emotional struggle, you just don't like the film ;)


edit: I re-read one of your above posts and understand that you feel his technical skills overshadow the emotional connections (not necessarily omits it), and that is fair to me. I guess we just disagree.

[WBadger]

25. The Lord of the Rings (2001, 2002, 2003, Jackson)

http://www.teako170.com/rings_1.jpg

http://www.flickchart.com/Assets/Posters/2001/posters/lord_of_the_rings_the_fellowship_of_the_ring_ver4.jpg (http://www.moviegoods.com/affiliate2/adClick.asp?affiliateID=2096&adID=79&opt1=TI&str1=The+Lord+of+the+Rings%3a+The+Fellowship+of+the+Ring+2001)http://www.flickchart.com/Assets/Posters/2002/posters/lord_of_the_rings_the_two_towers_ver4.jpg (http://www.moviegoods.com/affiliate2/adClick.asp?affiliateID=2096&adID=79&opt1=TI&str1=The+Lord+of+the+Rings%3a+The+Two+Towers+2002)http://www.flickchart.com/Assets/Posters/2003/posters/lord_of_the_rings_the_return_of_the_king_ver6.jpg (http://www.moviegoods.com/affiliate2/adClick.asp?affiliateID=2096&adID=79&opt1=TI&str1=The+Lord+of+the+Rings%3a+The+Return+of+the+King+2003)

Total Points Earned: 100
Compared to Previous List: http://unassistedsports.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/Down-Arrow.jpg 20 spots

[DexterRiley]

ha , I've never seen teh 2 sequels. For those that have, was it always conceived as a Trilogy?

In other words, could the 3 films if watched back to back to back, would it be like watching 1 epic 6 hour or so journey?

I've done that a few times with the Bourne movies. just wondered.

[genesis_pig]

I counted LOTR as a trilogy... just didn't want to count them individually just to save space.

I once watched all the 3 films together... but did take a break of an hour or so between the 2nd & 3rd film.

[Brodinski]

Wow, I'm surprised this came in as low as it did. I figured it would be a lock for the top 20 and get very close to the top 10. Anyway, brilliant trilogy that manages to evoke so many different emotions: amazement (seeing Minas Tirith for the first time); excitement (ehh, like, every battle scene); fear (that nasty spider made me think I was watching a horror flick); compassion and of course laughter:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKrei80jBg8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26i4OI5ZBs0&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ht_i1EiZHyc&feature=related

The word "epic" is tossed around a lot, but there is no better word to describe the LOTR trilogy. Every aspect of those 3 films is just epic.

[Xanatos]

Actually, the Lord of the Rings was written as one book, but publishers decided that it should be split into three. Tolkien intended it to be one.

[Yoda]

Tolkien intended them to be treated as one book, but had to break them up for publishing reasons, I believe.

EDIT: d'oh! Took too long trying to verify that my memory was correct.

[honeykid]

So pleased this is so low. Maybe there's hope for some of you after all. :D;)

It's probably redundant to say so, but I'm with Prestige all the way on the Kubrick thing.

[TheUsualSuspect]

Wow, it dropped 20 spots?

Also, I can't believe it's almost been a decade since Fellowship came out. WHERE DOES THE TIME GO!?!?!!?!?

[PumaMan]

Well, point being that the three movies of LOTR and the published books coincide. To directly answer the original question, it would be very difficult to watch the second and third movie without watching the first -- but, of course, there is summary video up front in case you do miss one.

[Xanatos]

Glad they're this high. I expected lower, although as "one movie" they're in my top ten

[The Prestige]

:pOkay, so we can agree that Eyes Wide Shut attempts to convey an emotional struggle, right? You just didn't connect?

Seems like you are saying Kubrick uses his technical expertise and omits emotion. Eyes Wide Shut is without a doubt an emotional struggle, you just don't like the film ;)


edit: I re-read one of your above posts and understand that you feel his technical skills foreshadow the emotional connections (not necessarily omits it), and that is fair to me. I guess we just disagree.

Yeah, that's pretty much it. Couldn't connect and I did try pretty hard, but it didn't work. Ah well. Yeah. I do feel that his technical skills overshadowed the emotional connection he has with his charaters, and I reckon he was content with that as that was a recurring thing throughout his career. But yep, I don't mind disagreeing with you a lil bit :p


A lil bit surprised Lord Of The Rings didn't make top 20, but it's still pretty damn high. Not a fan of the series. Not a fan at all, but it's definitely visionary stuff.

[WBadger]

24. Se7en (1995, Fincher)

http://soulhonky.com/2570459235_3d7db8a774.jpg

http://www.flickchart.com/Assets/Posters/1995/posters/914ABB106D-0658.jpg (http://www.moviegoods.com/affiliate2/adClick.asp?affiliateID=2096&adID=79&opt1=TI&str1=Se7en+1995)http://www.flickchart.com/Assets/Posters/1995/posters/914ABB106D-2280.jpg (http://www.moviegoods.com/affiliate2/adClick.asp?affiliateID=2096&adID=79&opt1=TI&str1=Se7en+1995)

Total Points Earned: 101
Compared to Previous List: http://baseballevolution.com/images/up_arrow.jpg 34 spots

[WBadger]

FACT: If the scoring system went by list appearances, Se7en would make the Top 5.

[Fiscal]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCrHpzWps4w

[LuDiNaToR]

i love seven, great movie

[Yoda]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCrHpzWps4w
Warning: language.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLuWUqVvZc4

[PumaMan]

Good one Yoda!

Or this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5gw7ec4KyY&ob=av3e

[WBadger]

23. Star Wars: Episode V- The Empire Strikes Back (1980, Kershner)

http://www.moviemobsters.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/star-wars-episode-v-the-empire-strikes-back.jpg

http://www.flickchart.com/Assets/Posters/1980/posters/empire_strikes_back_ver3.jpg (http://www.moviegoods.com/affiliate2/adClick.asp?affiliateID=2096&adID=79&opt1=TI&str1=The+Empire+Strikes+Back+1980)http://www.flickchart.com/Assets/Posters/1980/posters/empire_strikes_back_ver9.jpg (http://www.moviegoods.com/affiliate2/adClick.asp?affiliateID=2096&adID=79&opt1=TI&str1=The+Empire+Strikes+Back+1980)http://www.flickchart.com/Assets/Posters/1980/posters/empire_strikes_back_ver6.jpg (http://www.moviegoods.com/affiliate2/adClick.asp?affiliateID=2096&adID=79&opt1=TI&str1=The+Empire+Strikes+Back+1980)

Total Points Earned: 105
Compared to Previous List: http://unassistedsports.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/Up-Arrow.jpg 1 spot

[Brodinski]

Good to see this one ranked so high. It's my favourite film from the original trilogy. Entertainment of the highest value.

[The Prestige]

Completely agree, Brods. The darkest and best of the series. I would rank this one up even higher if I redid my list.

[honeykid]

Easily the best and my favourite of the trilogy, as well as being the only one that's got a hope of making my top 100.

[Yoda]

Easily the best and my favourite of the trilogy, as well as being the only one that's got a hope of making my top 100.
Using my powerful hacking skills, I've managed to obtain an early draft of this top 100 list:

100. Nothing
99. Nothing
98. Nothing
97. Nothing
96. Nothing
95. Nothing
94. Nothing
93. Nothing
92. Nothing
91. Nothing
90. Nothing
89. Nothing
88. Nothing
87. Nothing
86. Nothing
85. Nothing
84. Nothing
83. Nothing
82. Nothing
81. Nothing
80. Nothing
79. Nothing
78. Nothing
77. Nothing
76. Nothing
75. Nothing
74. Nothing
73. Nothing
72. Nothing
71. Nothing
70. Nothing
69. Nothing
68. Nothing
67. Nothing
66. Nothing
65. Nothing
64. Nothing
63. Nothing
62. Nothing
61. Nothing
60. Nothing
59. Nothing
58. Nothing
57. Nothing
56. Nothing
55. Nothing
54. Nothing
53. Nothing
52. Nothing
51. Nothing
50. Nothing
49. Nothing
48. Nothing
47. Nothing
46. Nothing
45. Nothing
44. Nothing
43. Nothing
42. Nothing
41. Nothing
40. Nothing
39. Nothing
38. Nothing
37. Nothing
36. Nothing
35. Nothing
34. Nothing
33. Nothing
32. Nothing
31. Nothing
30. Nothing
29. Nothing
28. Nothing
27. Nothing
26. Nothing
25. Nothing
24. Nothing
23. Nothing
22. Nothing
21. Nothing
20. Nothing
19. Nothing
18. Nothing
17. Nothing
16. Nothing
15. Nothing
14. Nothing
13. Nothing
12. Nothing
11. Nothing
10. Nothing
9. Nothing
8. Nothing
7. Nothing
6. Nothing
5. Nothing
4. Nothing
3. Nothing
2. Nothing
1. Boys on the Side

[mark f]

Star Wars (1977) is beating it in this list though. :cool:

[Yoda]

Yeah, I guess it must be, since I don't think it's terribly likely it's not on the list at all. I'm guessing Return of the Jedi missed it completely, though, then.

[mark f]

Oh, and looking at Yoda's hack job above, I never realized that there were so many films entitled Nothing.

[honeykid]

I can confirm that Yoda's list is wrong.... There's no way that Boys On The Side would be at #1. C'mon, Satan's in it for crying out loud! It's like you don't even know me. :D

[DexterRiley]

speaking of HK and the top 100..Braveheart hasnt put in an appearance yet.

[nebbit]

Using my powerful hacking skills, I've managed to obtain an early draft of this top 100 list:

100. Nothing
" " "
1. Boys on the Side
:laugh:

[mark f]

speaking of HK and the top 100..Braveheart hasnt put in an appearance yet.

"I'm comin' honey!"

[mark f]

I think that eight out of my ten Favorite Movies are making the list.

[Powdered Water]

I'm glad I missed out on all the American History X chatter. I don't care for that flick at all.

Good times eh? Getting to the really good stuff I guess.

[planet news]

Freakin Empire, man. Yeah.

[Yoda]

Loving the list now that we're getting down to the really good stuff. I'm genuinely excited to see the rest of it.

[WBadger]

22. Citizen Kane (1941, Welles)

http://files.list.co.uk/images/2008/10/02/citizen-kane.jpg

http://www.flickchart.com/Assets/Posters/1941/posters/citizen_kane_ver4.jpg (http://www.moviegoods.com/affiliate2/adClick.asp?affiliateID=2096&adID=79&opt1=TI&str1=Citizen+Kane+1941)http://www.flickchart.com/Assets/Posters/1941/posters/citizen_kane_ver2.jpg (http://www.moviegoods.com/affiliate2/adClick.asp?affiliateID=2096&adID=79&opt1=TI&str1=Citizen+Kane+1941)http://www.flickchart.com/Assets/Posters/1941/posters/citizen_kane.jpg (http://www.moviegoods.com/affiliate2/adClick.asp?affiliateID=2096&adID=79&opt1=TI&str1=Citizen+Kane+1941)

Total Points Earned: 105
Compared to Previous List: NEW

[genesis_pig]

Citizen Kane is a new entry???
Shocking!!

[Yoda]

I'd rather it be higher, but I'll take it. :up:

Citizen Kane is a new entry???
Shocking!!
Yeah, the last list was kind of thrown together, I think. Nothing ill meant towards Bobby, but it was a bit harder to organize things then, and there were fewer people around to participate, too, I'd say.

[nebbit]

Citizen Kane is a new entry???
Shocking!!
It is :eek: it should always be on anyones top 100 :yup:

[genesis_pig]

It was #19 on my list.

[planet news]

#22 < #19 < #1

QUIET BLASPHEMERS.i

[nebbit]

It was #19 on my list.
:up:

[Miss Vicky]

Still haven't yet watched Citizen Kane. Will get to it at some point.

[PumaMan]

Still haven't yet watched Citizen Kane. Will get to it at some point.

Shamefully, neither have I. :eek:

[planet news]

So what? From what I've seen of your tastes, neither of you will watch it and put it on your top ten, I guarantee that.

[genesis_pig]

Shamefully, neither have I. :eek:

This, from a guy who begins his conversations with - "blah.. blah.. I am much older than you... blah.. blah.."
:sick:

[honeykid]

Not quite sure where it was on my list, but it was there. A truly great film.

[genesis_pig]

So what? From what I've seen of your tastes, neither of you will watch it and put it on your top ten, I guarantee that.

I doubt that, Puma keeps changing Top 10 & that too I believe, to show off that he has seen so many movies.
So you never know, in a cold week in december... Citizen Kane might just pop up there for a while...

[PumaMan]

So what? From what I've seen of your tastes, neither of you will watch it and put it on your top ten, I guarantee that.

Probably true. Maybe that's why I've put off watching it all these years.

Oh well. I'm probably the only person on this board that didn't like The Dark Knight.

[PumaMan]

I doubt that, Puma keeps changing Top 10 & that too I believe, to show off that he has seen so many movies.


Aw come on. I only changed it twice. And that's mostly because I just threw it together when I first joined. When you get to be my age you forget what you've seen until reminded.

[planet news]

Oh well. I'm probably the only person on this board that didn't like The Dark Knight.

What. Ever. TDK is totally average in the grand scheme of things. It only stands out by being, supposedly, the best comic book film, which, to me, does not really occur without destroying what it means to be a comic book film. The best Batman adaptation is clearly the Tim Burton original. I don't really know what TDK is an adaptation of.

Also, PumaMan has given me two great recs so far (DU and A) that I might never have checked out until much later. Any idiot can recommend CK; not that you are an idiot, g_p. ^__^

[Miss Vicky]

So what? From what I've seen of your tastes, neither of you will watch it and put it on your top ten, I guarantee that.

I know. I fully expect it to not even come close to top ten, but it is on my "to see" list.

[genesis_pig]

Ya.. yaa.. I get it..

Blah.... blah... blah.... Blah.... blah... blah.... When you get to be my age you......... Blah.... blah... blah....

[WBadger]

So what? From what I've seen of your tastes, neither of you will watch it and put it on your top ten, I guarantee that.

Good thing most people don't watch movies this way.

[planet news]

Good thing most people don't watch movies this way.It's not suggesting a "way" of watching movies. I was merely responding to how they were "ashamed" to not have seen it as if not seeing it makes them any less of an educated audience. Also, CK is the kind of film that is always on top lists for one reason or another, and it does make me a little glad to see someone like Vicky who doesn't just parrot AFI.

[WBadger]

I hear you. You made it seem that if it's not in their supposed taste range there is no point in watching it because they won't rave over it anyways.

[Powdered Water]

Citizen Kane. Meh...

[planet news]

I hear you. You made it seem that if it's not in their supposed taste range there is no point in watching it because they won't rave over it anyways.... that's actually what I did mean. :laugh:

Apart from the "no point". There obviously is a point, I just don't think they should be "ashamed". It's not a film that's easy to love IMO, and I don't think age has anything to do with it. It's just not a very accessible film.

[Powdered Water]

Yeah because its boring and the story is (if there is one) also boring and pointless.

But other than that... GREAT film.

[Miss Vicky]

The point in watching CK is to be able to say that I've seen it.

And because there is still that slim chance I might actually enjoy it.
It's happened before.

[PumaMan]

Note to self: Never admit that you haven't seen a movie. And never be ashamed of that fact, which is moot because you'll never admit it again. :)

[Powdered Water]

Why? No one has seen everything. Not even Holden or Mark have seen everything. Pretty sure I'm not going out on a limb when I say its a physical impossibility to see them all.

[planet news]

F'ing mark tho... I don't think his omniscience is an illusion.

[genesis_pig]

When I make a Top 100 list... I think I'll have Touch Of Evil higher than Citizen Kane.
Also, Le Proces (Or The Trial) will make an appearance as well, just coz of it's cinematography..

Orson Welles is a genius!!!

[Powdered Water]

I do like Touch of Evil quite a bit, even though Heston was horribly miscast but still, great flick.

Welles a genius? That's a topic for another thread and up for much debate.

[planet news]

I basically like every Welles' over CK. Seriously. Even Welles called The Trial his best film, a point which I agree with him on.

[WBadger]

The point in watching CK is to be able to say that I've seen it.

And because there is still that slim chance I might actually enjoy it.
It's happened before.

I don't get this. Why wouldn't you think you might actually enjoy it? You say this often about older films, is it because they are older or for another reason?

I mean, yeah, looking at your favorites list it doesn't seem likely, but then again, you haven't really seen too many canonized classics and older films at least judging from the lists. I remember you loved One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest so it always puzzles me when you are reluctant to watch older movies and see them just so you can say you have seen them and check them off the lists. Maybe the point of watching Citizen Kane is to gain something from it and not go into it just wanting to say that you've seen it.

[Caitlyn]

I remember trying to watch Citizen Kane many moons ago... but I don't remember finishing it or particularly liking the parts I did see...

[Miss Vicky]

I don't get this. Why wouldn't you think you might actually enjoy it? You say this often about older films, is it because they are older or for another reason?

It's because there's nothing about this movie that makes me think I'll like it. The subject matter doesn't interest me. I'm not familiar with the work of Welles or any of the actors in the film, so there's no previous experience to give me any high expectations.

I do, however, have the previous experience of not enjoying many of the highly acclaimed films that I have seen. This is true of newer movies as well.

What can I say? I'm a pessimist. Of course, that doesn't mean I won't like it. I've watched other movies without expecting to enjoy them and have been more than pleasantly surprised. One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, as you mentioned, was one. Another was The Cabinet of Dr. Caligari, which if I recall correctly I placed at #15 on my favorites list.

[WBadger]

Alright, Miss Vicky. Thanks for the response.

I just encourage you to experience everything.

[Miss Vicky]

I just encourage you to experience everything.

I had planned on it.

Like I said, it's on my "to see" list (a.k.a. Netflix Queue), just haven't gotten to it yet.

Though I think I'm going to take a break from working on the lists for a couple weeks or so and just stick with known favorites. So it'll be awhile still before I do get to it.

[Iroquois]

Fast forward to 5:08.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3ENQT3le7k

[WBadger]

Also:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKQ1fvcw6qY

1:23

[ash_is_the_gal]

So what? From what I've seen of your tastes, neither of you will watch it and put it on your top ten, I guarantee that.

does it really take a certain kind of person to love Citizen Kane? it's a masterpeice with so many firsts i think it's impossible for anyone who really loves movies not to appreciate it.

[mark f]

It wasn't in my Top 100 (nor is any Welles), but it is a great film to try to teach and learn from. Of course, that does turn off a lot of people who don't want to work when they relax and watch a film.

[planet news]

I don't think being the first to do something automatically makes what you did good or, for that matter, better than the people who subsequently do it. I think this is especially true in the case of CK. I respect the film, but I will never like or love it. I think anything anyone teaches from it will be technical feats only; that is, even in terms of narrative structure and so forth.

>i think it's impossible for anyone who really loves movies not to appreciate it.

Interesting that one film can make the difference between "really" loving movies and not "really" loving movies. Interesting how you draw validity to the claim that CK is the greatest/most vital film there is by implicitly attacking all those who do not consider it so as being philistines. Cool pomposity, bro.

So yeah... I'll say it... the story is a pointless piece of trash that has little to no emotional/social/historical/philosophical significance whatsoever. Almost anything Welles did after, most relevant of all being The Magnificent Ambersons, is better in this regard.

Not that a meaningful story, or even a story period, is a necessary thing for a film, but in the case of CK, Welles failed utterly.

I will say that I love to praise a director's form and technical mastery, and that, without it, a film will always be missing a key element, but I hate how CK is raised to the level it is when technical achievement is clearly its only saving grace. A "saving grace" with considerable weight, mind you, but something which I cannot honestly say makes it somehow "better" or "greater" than Casablanca, the film directly below CK.

I'm sure this is a debate that happens on MoFos every year, but it's the first time that I'm able to spearhead the dissidents' side, so deal with it oldtimers

[wintertriangles]

If Citizen Kane was a silent film it would improve immensely. Like. Watchable

[ash_is_the_gal]

I don't think being the first to do something automatically makes what you did good or, for that matter, better than the people who subsequently do it.

neither do i. i said appreciate.

Interesting that one film can make the difference between "really" loving movies and not "really" loving movies. Cool thought, bro.


uh... that's not what i said.

& don't call me bro.

[planet news]

>uh... that's not what i said

uh... then what's this mean?

i think it's impossible for anyone who really loves movies not to appreciate it1. "i think" - this is a thought that ran through your head; you hold this thought as a belief; you subscribe to this belief
2. "it's impossible" - it is not possible; it is not in existence; it does not exist
3. "for anyone who really loves movies" - that is, the set of all people who, as you say "really lov[e] movies"
4. "not to appreciate it" - to not appreciate the film Citizen Kane; to be unable to appreciate the film; to refuse to appreciate the film; to make claims to the film's non-appreciability

It follows that it would be possible "for anyone who really loves movies" (3) "to appreciate it" (4). It would not be possible "for anyone who really loves movies" (3) "to not appreciate it" (4, emphasis added).

The two, that is, "anyone who really loves movies" (3) and "to appreciate it" (4) are thus mutually exclusive. The key relationship between them is "not", in that "not" being or doing one thing is what makes the other thing possible.

Furthermore, "to appreciate it" (4) is the way in which "anyone who really loves movies" (3) can "really lov[e] movies". It is the cause of "anyone" to "really lov[e] movies", or, at least, it is the way in which "really lov[e] movies" can be attributed to "anyone".

It follows that if everyone "really loved movies" (3), then everyone who "appreciate it". It also can be said then that if no one "really loved movies", than no one would "appreciate it".

The first person to "really lov[e] movies" in the second situation would thus also be the first person to "appreciate it", that is, the film Citizen Kane.

Or is, uh... that not what you said? :shrug:

[Powdered Water]

You're getting cranky PN, go make yourself a sandwich. Maybe take in a little sugar or something.

[ash_is_the_gal]

haha.

[planet news]

Oh ok

[mark f]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16WC_Dyo6Fo&NR=1

[honeykid]

If Citizen Kane was a silent film it would improve immensely. Like. Watchable

Um... What?

Quick question, are you mental?

Kane's got one of, if not, the best scripts ever. Obviously there are people who don't like the film, find it hard to watch, whatever, but removing the script is beyond blasphemy. I'm assuming you're keeping the score, even though you say silent?

[Powdered Water]

No more mental than someone with a, say... Drew Barrymore obsession perhaps?

[honeykid]

Nope, it's even more mental than that. :D

Like the avatar, BTW. :)

[planet news]

but removing the script is beyond blasphemyThis is sorta immaterial since we're talking about a weird hypothetical things, but how would a silent film remove the script exactly? Intertitles anyone?

[planet news]

I just want to say something...

Shouldn't the greatest film (inb4 some clever bro tells me this is not a greatest films list) of something be the film that you would want to, hypothetically, represent that something? Wouldn't you want to choose a film that sort of embodies that thing? The kind of film that you would want to... I dunno... send into outer space on a probe or something?

Fitting with the outer space theme, I do see 2001 as a film that mankind can be proud of. It shows our mastery of every art, but, most of all, it shows our mastery of film, that is, of purely visual storytelling. Also, substance-wise it shows our openmindedness to progress and the unknown. If you take a look at its mythical implications, you could also say that it encapsulates some our deepest feelings of fear and self-preservation. It also gives a "history" of our species in a way no other film ever has, albeit some Discovery Channel docudrama on the Cro-magnon. Yes indeed, I would be damn proud to send Kubrick's masterpiece into outer space and have it be the very first thing an alien race knows of us.

Not that epic, transcendental space films are the only films that could accomplish this. Hell no. The Wizard of Oz could also be this kind of film. It encapsulates just about everything that you could ever say about the concept of "human" but on a totally different level. I would even be proud to send out The Godfather, because here's a film that shows how imperfect we are, and how dark we can let our world become.

These films I listed say something about what it is to live just by existing as themselves. Maybe not all films need to be like Ran and spell it out with some guy yelling it. Maybe The Wizard of Oz says more about humanity than Ran or 2001 ever tried to say. Or maybe it doesn't.

This is why I don't like how Citizen Kane is viewed as great for its historical importance. It's a shallow film that does nothing but try to portray the vapidity of the upper class as something profound. And it doesn't even go far enough in that direction to say anything of substance as any of the three films I listed above (you can list many others that apply if you want) and I would be very ashamed if it were sent out into space, or, for that matter, represented to other nations as the crowning achievement of American cinema.

It's not a film I'm proud of having seen. It's a piece of history.

===

I'm pretty tired now, so this might've sounded like nonsense (quote away ********)..... but the general gist is there. I might try to touch up the ideas later.

Good night and good luck.

[ash_is_the_gal]

planet, it doesn't sound like nonsense at all. the reason i didn't respond when you nitpicked through the single sentence i said was because i just thought you were trying to goad me, but you're actually saying something substantial this time. now i would like to say something.

Shouldn't the greatest film (inb4 some clever bro tells me this is not a greatest films list) of something be the film that you would want to, hypothetically, represent that something? Wouldn't you want to choose a film that sort of embodies that thing? The kind of film that you would want to... I dunno... send into outer space on a probe or something?

OK, i'm going to be that clever bro, because while i understand and actually agree with a lot of what you said, i just don't see what it has to do with the argument at hand. the only discussion in regards to Citizen Kane i have seen so far in this thread are people who explain why they like the film vs. the people who don't. and you sound like you're on a tangent against... who... those who actually like CK and don't share your opinion of it? arguing with people because they don't get what you did (or didn't) out of a film - this is the oldest debate there is, and it's tired, because it never gets anywhere.

is there really such a thing as a "Greatest of all Time" list anywhere? all i ever see are Favorites lists. that's because most people who really love films (i'm not just talking about your average movie-watcher, but those who really do love films) sometimes have illogical reasons for loving certain things. you see it all the time in the Top 100 lists, which is probably the reason they are so popular: because it shows how human we are. normal people don't always love something because it's "the perfect mix", and a lot of humans are drawn to things for the wrong reasons. this would include movies, too. if there really was such a thing as "The Greatest List of all Time" and it was that obvious, then everyones Top 100 lists would be the same, wouldn't they? but quite honestly, if someone made a Top 100 list and it simply listed what you deemed "the greatest movies of all time because they encompass everything human" it would be... boring. ironically, it would look contrived.

i actually think this is really part of what makes us human. we are often drawn to things because of their imperfections. actually, sometimes they are just totally effed, straight up. i love so many different movies, and some of them are for the stupidest reasons you could imagine. i know i'm not alone in this, so i'm not going to act all sheepish about that.

i'm really not trying to say that Citizen Kane is a great example of anything. i mean, i could of course, but that's another conversation and i'm too tired right now.

[nebbit]

http://bestsmileys.com/signs1/17.gif

[wintertriangles]

Kane's got one of, if not, the best scripts ever. Obviously there are people who don't like the film, find it hard to watch, whatever, but removing the script is beyond blasphemy. I'm assuming you're keeping the score, even though you say silent?I don't get why people use the word "best" like they do "the" these days. Its script is structurally sound...and that's about it. It had loads of fluff that came off as a bunch of guys writing their first movie, which it was. If it was silent, had no annoying inflections, and cut down the dialogue to inserts and implications, it would be way more enjoyable, and defendable.

IN FACT, if Robert Downey could reprise his Chaplin role and they used a reel camera, they could totally do a satire and mock its melodrama and mannerisms

Honestly, I think a couple generations from now, people will not hold it on this infallible pedestal. Can't wait

[PumaMan]

Well, I'm going to watch CK soon, mostly to see where my opinion of this movie fits in this controversy. I know, not the best reason to watch a movie . . . .

ETA: I've joined NetFlix and CK is the first movie in my queue. How soon will it ship?

[ash_is_the_gal]

@Puma, if it ships on the next day available (Monday) you should get it on Wednesday.

[ash_is_the_gal]

Well, I'm going to watch CK soon, mostly to see where my opinion of this movie fits in this controversy. I know, not the best reason to watch a movie . . . .

but it kinda proves my point. you are drawn to the need to watch a movie for a completely effed up reason! ;)

[Yoda]

We might be in different locations, but the rule for Netflix on my end is that you get it the day after it ships, and they get it the day after I send it back. So, if it's sent on Monday I get it on Tuesday. And if I send it back on Monday I get the next on Wednesday. Might vary depending on where you are, though.

Anyway, I don't think it's a problem for people to say they're "ashamed" not to have seen Citizen Kane. All that implies is that they think of themselves as someone who likes and appreciates movies, and they recognize that Citizen Kane is a landmark film for one reason or another, so it's easily worth 2 hours out of the life of anyone who appreciates the medium. I'm also assuming it's not a literal shame, and that the word is being used as a deliberate exaggeration.

Re: "shouldn't the best film represent film?" (paraphrasing what planet asked). I'm not sure, really, but one argument for Citizen Kane as the best film plays quite well into what you're saying about it's story: if it's a mediocre story, but told superbly and made more engrossing than it would otherwise have any reason to be, then it's a great ambassador for film in general because it demonstrates just how powerful the medium is, even with mediocre raw material. If great filmmaking can make a story you don't find compelling, compelling, then it represents film in general quite well.

That said, I think the story's quite good anyway, I just think there are any number of ways it could justify its general status as the greatest film ever made.

[wintertriangles]

But don't you find it demeaning to the whole medium to say this one movie from forever ago is the greatest? To me that comes across as implying nothing before or after it is interesting enough to be mentioned. It seems like such an useless thing to title something the best or the greatest while ignoring anything else with talent. It wouldn't surprise me if all those people who shower it with this title, blindly or with learned mind, don't hold the same appreciation for people like Melies, Murnau, or Lang. I guess I'm just abashed and upset that there's so many other wonderful works overshadowed just because of the word "greatest", because there's truly no problem at all with thinking Citizen Kane is brilliant on your own terms, but when one brings it to the table with a hear-no-evil, speak-no-evil attitude, it's extremely offputting

[Miss Vicky]

It seems like such an American thing to title something the best or the greatest while ignoring anything else with talent.


I'm getting really sick of seeing comments like this. Being American or not has nothing to do with anything.

Calling something "the best" or "the greatest" is not an exclusively American thing to do. It's a human thing to do.

[wintertriangles]

fine, fix'd

[Yoda]

But don't you find it demeaning to the whole medium to say this one movie from forever ago is the greatest? To me that comes across as implying nothing before or after it is interesting enough to be mentioned.
This sounds like a complete non-sequitur to me. Saying the greatest film is old in no way implies that "nothing before or after is interesting enough to get mentioned." It would only do that if someone asked for a top 100 and you just said "Citizen Kane. The other 99 don't matter."

It seems like such an useless thing to title something the best or the greatest while ignoring anything else with talent.
This is a complaint with the idea of picking one film at all, not with Citizen Kane specifically, though. Which is fine; I doubt many of us would defend the idea that you can encompass any art form in one work of art. But I don't think that's what people are trying to do when they say that Kane is the "greatest" film, anyway.

It wouldn't surprise me if all those people who shower it with this title, blindly or with learned mind, don't hold the same appreciation for people like Melies, Murnau, or Lang. I guess I'm just abashed and upset that there's so many other wonderful works overshadowed just because of the word "greatest", because there's truly no problem at all with thinking Citizen Kane is brilliant on your own terms, but when one brings it to the table with a hear-no-evil, speak-no-evil attitude, it's extremely offputting
Well, several people here have taken it down a notch or two (or tried to), so I don't see much danger of a lack of dissent.

As for showering it with praise "blindly" -- we all shower praise on what we love despite not having seen X, Y, or Z, because there's tons all of us haven't seen. But that's neither here nor there; all the lists it's near the top of are put together by people who've seen an absurd number of films, so I don't think you can blame it on that.

fine, fix'd
The objection is that you believe it, I think, not that you said it. Removing the statement doesn't really change anything, I don't think.

[Miss Vicky]

The objection is that you believe it, I think, not that you said it. Removing the statement doesn't really change anything, I don't think.

Exactly, Yoda.

WT: You said it. I know you believe it. You didn't even apologize for it. The damage is done.

[WBadger]

21. Braveheart (1995, Gibson)

http://www.moviemobsters.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/braveheart460.jpg

http://www.flickchart.com/Assets/Posters/1995/posters/braveheart_ver4.jpg (http://www.moviegoods.com/affiliate2/adClick.asp?affiliateID=2096&adID=79&opt1=TI&str1=Braveheart+1995)http://www.flickchart.com/Assets/Posters/1995/posters/braveheart_ver3.jpg (http://www.moviegoods.com/affiliate2/adClick.asp?affiliateID=2096&adID=79&opt1=TI&str1=Braveheart+1995)http://www.flickchart.com/Assets/Posters/1995/posters/braveheart.jpg (http://www.moviegoods.com/affiliate2/adClick.asp?affiliateID=2096&adID=79&opt1=TI&str1=Braveheart+1995)

Total Points Earned: 106
Compared to Previous List: http://unassistedsports.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/Down-Arrow.jpg 6 spots

[LuDiNaToR]

lol braveheart great film

[wintertriangles]

WT: You said it. I know you believe it. You didn't even apologize for it. The damage is done.
Apologize for projecting the experiences I see? How damaging

[genesis_pig]

If Braveheart is on #21... I hope Last of the Mohicans is higher.

[WBadger]

It's already on the list at #42, and yes I knew that without looking.

[genesis_pig]

21x2=42!!!!

Strange?!... Does that mean Braveheart is twice as good as LOTM? :eek:

[Miss Vicky]

Apologize for projecting the experiences I see? How damaging

Yes, because arrogance is an exclusively American trait and is something that is clearly beneath you.

Right.

[PumaMan]

but it kinda proves my point. you are drawn to the need to watch a movie for a completely effed up reason! ;)

I don't think I was involved in that discussion.

[Yoda]

Apologize for projecting the experiences I see? How damaging
I'm not sure what this means. Nobody's blaming you for the act of having an opinion, they're taking issue with that specific opinion. An opinion which, I might add, seems like both a generalization and a non-sequitur, and which is extremely vague. It'd be completely unfalsifiable even if it formed a logical progression from observation to conclusion, but I don't think it even does that. Nothing about picking a "greatest" film (even if I were to concede that this is some kind of exclusively American thing to do) implies that nothing else has value.

[PumaMan]

I want get this out in the open. The older a movie is, the more likely it is that I won't appreciate it. The words "more likely" implies that there are many exceptions. And I don't automatically appreciate everything coming out of Hollywood nowadays -- far from it.

Sorry, but this is my experience. Just trying to be honest here.

OK, you may now express objections or criticisms in bitter, harsh, or abusive language.

[Caitlyn]

21. Braveheart (1995, Gibson)



Someone better get Honeykid a body bag... :p

;)


Freedom!

[genesis_pig]

OK, you may now express objections or criticisms in bitter, harsh, or abusive language.


You $#@< &(*&...
:mad:
Piece of %#$@(!!
:mad:
You are the &^$#?" of the %#$*&^!!!
:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

[PumaMan]

You $#@< &(*&...
:mad:
Piece of %#$@(!!
:mad:
You are the &^$#?" of the %#$*&^!!!
:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

By any chance, were you in the military for ten years and now live by a lake? :)

[genesis_pig]

By any chance, were you in the military for ten years and now live by a lake? :)

By any chance, were you in the military for ten years and now live by a lake? :mad:

[Harry Lime]

By any chance, were you in the military for ten years and now live by a lake? :)

By any chance, were you in the military for ten years and now live by a lake? :mad:

Do you two know each other or something?

[PumaMan]

By any chance, were you in the military for ten years and now live by a lake? :mad:

Nope. Four years, USAF. Now live in the desert -- no water for miles and miles and miles and miles.

[PumaMan]

Do you two know each other or something?

Nah. It's a reference to a guy that was just banned who was pretty good with the ad homs.

[Harry Lime]

Nah. It's a reference to a guy that was just banned who was pretty good with the ad homs.

A lot of people are getting banned these days. I blame the internet.

[Harry Lime]

Okay, let's not turn this into a "bullsh!t thread", that's reserved for new members and their top 100 lists.

[genesis_pig]

Nope. Four years, USAF. Now live in the desert -- no water for miles and miles and miles and miles.

I wasn't in the military,, nor do I live in the desert.

But I am locked up in an isolation room, where they conduct experiments on me.
I have no friends.

[WBadger]

http://www.firstshowing.net/img2/gran-torino-trailer-gun-img.jpg

Get off my thread

[Harry Lime]

http://www.firstshowing.net/img2/gran-torino-trailer-gun-img.jpg

Get off my thread

http://tshirtgroove.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/you-better-walk-on-i-will-hit-an-old-man-in-public-hangover-tshirt.jpg

[planet news]

This sounds like a complete non-sequitur to me. Saying the greatest film is old in no way implies that "nothing before or after is interesting enough to get mentioned." It would only do that if someone asked for a top 100 and you just said "Citizen Kane. The other 99 don't matter."It has the same stabilizing effect as political incumbency. Once a film is put into that position, it is super hard to knock it down, ESPECIALLY with something new.

The objection is that you believe it, I think, not that you said it. Removing the statement doesn't really change anything, I don't think.For the record, I am willing to go to the grave in defending winter on this point about something being American, but not that thing specifically. AFI is an elitist institution that cares about art, so anything they do should not be called American!

I do think that American is more than just some kind of legal term. It is almost certainly a concrete set of REAL tendencies.

Part of being American I think is being in a constant search for history or tradition. As one of the youngest countries around, America has no deep past to draw on like Europe or the Asian countries. America's great period dramas are Westerns or Civil War films. Not dat long ago! It seems fitting that Americans would be AFRAID to list something new as their greatest film, because it would further undermine their tradition, calling even more attention to their lack of it. CK is a necessary pick, because it roots our film tradition IN a tradition. Without it, we would be lost. Our past would unravel.

This is a rough theory, but you can see what I mean about American being something (in opposition to Vicky's claim of "human"---I mean, do you seriously not believe in CULTURE?).

[PumaMan]

I've often wondered whether people state that certain films are the best because they've been "taught" to say that. Indoctrinated almost. Like other art forms, sometimes I wonder if I like them because my Art Appreciation classes I took years ago told me I should or whether I really do like them.

[Powdered Water]

We've been brainwashed in this country for years. It's getting worse too.

*ducks

[Miss Vicky]

This is a rough theory, but you can see what I mean about American being something (in opposition to Vicky's claim of "human"---I mean, do you seriously not believe in CULTURE?).

Of course I believe in culture. I do not, however, believe that culture has anything to do with labeling something as "the best." It certainly may influence WHAT you choose as being the best, but is not the reason for using the term itself.

I also think you and winter have very different ideas of what the term "American" implies in this context.

[wintertriangles]

Considering how offended you got, I could say the same for you since my little "blasphemy" was hardly more than minute

[planet news]

Winter and I are just spitballing impressions. Seeing as America is an ultra-capitalist state where competition is seen as the key to all good, the constant hunt for #1 may very well be part of our mental structuring.

Now, since AFI lists seem more like proclamations than competitions, I would disagree with winter. Americans are highly critical of authority... almost too much...

[PumaMan]

Seeing as America is an ultra-capitalist state where competition is seen as the key to all good, . . . .

I wish one of you guys would get a lecture from that little green fella. :)

[wintertriangles]

Now, since AFI lists seem more like proclamations than competitions, I would disagree with winter. Americans are highly critical of authority... almost too much... I'm a bit of a hypocrite when it comes to that. Border patrol doesn't help my stance either, but I have lots of contradicting views of authority, though it tends to blend between the lines of reality and the ideal
I wish one of you guys would get a lecture from that little green fella. :) I wish YOU would lecture me. Just because he has the wise one as a representative doesn't make him all knowing

[Yoda]

It has the same stabilizing effect as political incumbency. Once a film is put into that position, it is super hard to knock it down, ESPECIALLY with something new.
I think this is a pretty different point than the one we've been discussing. That said, I agree completely. And I'd add that it's really hard to know how much of a film's reverence is legit, and how much is this gerrymandering-esque effect. I tend to think that this gets sorted out over time, however.

For the record, I am willing to go to the grave in defending winter on this point about something being American, but not that thing specifically. AFI is an elitist institution that cares about art, so anything they do should not be called American!

I do think that American is more than just some kind of legal term. It is almost certainly a concrete set of REAL tendencies.
Absolutely. Culture exists, and Americans have tendencies that other countries don't (and vice-versa). I was not disputing the entire concept that something can be "American," I was disputing the idea that this particular thing is American.


Part of being American I think is being in a constant search for history or tradition. As one of the youngest countries around, America has no deep past to draw on like Europe or the Asian countries. America's great period dramas are Westerns or Civil War films. Not dat long ago! It seems fitting that Americans would be AFRAID to list something new as their greatest film, because it would further undermine their tradition, calling even more attention to their lack of it. CK is a necessary pick, because it roots our film tradition IN a tradition. Without it, we would be lost. Our past would unravel.

This is a rough theory, but you can see what I mean about American being something (in opposition to Vicky's claim of "human"---I mean, do you seriously not believe in CULTURE?).
Yeah, I find the theory interesting, though I think you may be taking it a bit far. But I absolutely buy the idea that we search for history and tradition more (and focus more on what tradition and history we have) because of our relative youth. Makes sense, on any number of levels.

[Yoda]

I wish YOU would lecture me. Just because he has the wise one as a representative doesn't make him all knowing
I think he was being sarcastic, since I struck up a discussion about capitalism with him in another thread.

That said, my response to you, and why I found your statement both unfair and irrational, can be found earlier in the thread, if you care to contest the all-knowingness that nobody is actually attributing to me.

[PumaMan]

I think he was being sarcastic, . . . .

I despise that there sarcasm stuff. Nothin' worser in my book. No sireee Bob.

[wintertriangles]

I think he was being sarcastic, since I struck up a discussion about capitalism with him in another thread.

That said, my response to you, and why I found your statement both unfair and irrational, can be found earlier in the thread, if you care to contest the all-knowingness that nobody is actually attributing to me.I was hoping you'd catch the facetiousness but alas..;)

[planet news]

@Yoda

Rationality isn't the best thing to cite against an artistic argument. Consistency maybe... I think winter is pretty consistent in his anti-establishment way. I really do.

As for wisdom's sake, Yoda is clearly a golden mean Aristotelian, which makes him the voice of reason in hardline debates... except, funnily enough, on religion...

[PumaMan]

I think I hear Clint sneakin' up again with that rifle of his . . . .

[Powdered Water]

Yeah, this used to be about Kane and now... what is it about exactly?

[wintertriangles]

Tapioca, according to the wise man

[planet news]

Yeah, this used to be about Kane and now... what is it about exactly?It's about "used to be about Kane", that's what.

[Yoda]

Rationality isn't the best thing to cite against an artistic argument. Consistency maybe... I think winter is pretty consistent in his anti-establishment way. I really do.
Just as I wasn't dismissing the entire idea of American culture being a thing, I wasn't saying winter is inconsistent in his views on the establishment, either. I was saying this one, specific claim was irrational, to my mind, because it was a simple non-sequitur. Picking a "greatest" film does not logically imply that all other films have no worth. One can simply believe this, devoid of evidence, but there's no direct connection between the two, is all.

As for wisdom's sake, Yoda is clearly a golden mean Aristotelian, which makes him the voice of reason in hardline debates...
Yeah, and I find it funny how often this gets all mixed up and made personal. Ask pointed questions and point out inconsistencies -- as I've come to believe is the best way to get at the truth and unravel and issue -- and people will hate your guts sometimes. Usually it's some variation of "why do you think you're so right all the time?" And you wanna say: it's just a process, man. And a really good one. It's not about me.

except, funnily enough, on religion...
Hey, any time, amigo.

[planet news]

>Hey, any time, amigo.

Why you want to argue about religion, I will never know. I find it much more interesting to discuss what we have in common. Which, according to you, is nothing.

/religion

[mark f]

If anybody really wants to talk about Kane the Movie rather than how it somehow represents the best and worst of what it means to be American, let me suggest the Movie Club thread devoted to it. It's here (http://www.movieforums.com/community/showthread.php?t=21889). Some of this recent discussion would also fit in over there, but at least it would then be put in perhaps a clearer context.

There was a time "long ago" when Citizen Kane was not thought of as the Best anything in polls, and yes, most of the films thought more highly of were older (and silent, for that matter). As far as MoFo goes, this list shows that we thought there were 20 films which "deserved" a higher ranking in the Top 100 Films of All-Time than Citizen Kane. I just don't believe that people filled out their lists thinking about AFI or Sight and Sound or putting any specific film in a position to be the "winner". This list doesn't really have a winner anyway. Who was exactly competing?

[mark f]

If anybody really wants to talk about Kane the Movie rather than how it somehow represents the best and worst of what it means to be American, let me suggest the Movie Club thread devoted to it. It's here (http://www.movieforums.com/community/showthread.php?t=21889). Some of this recent discussion would also fit in over there, but at least it would then be put in perhaps a clearer context.

There was a time long ago when Citizen Kane was not thought of as the Best anything in polls, and yes, most of the films thought more highly of were older (and silent, for that matter). As far as MoFo goes, this list shows that we thought there were 20 films which deserved a higher ranking in the Top 100 Films of All-Time than Citizen Kane. I just don't believe that people filled out their lists thinking about AFI or Sight and Sound or putting any specific film in a position to be the "winner". This list doesn't really have a winner anyway. Who, exactly, were competing?

[WBadger]

20. Blade Runner (1982, Scott)

http://iwantigot.geekigirl.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/20080108_bladerunner.jpg

http://www.flickchart.com/Assets/Posters/1982/posters/blade_runner_ver6.jpg (http://www.moviegoods.com/affiliate2/adClick.asp?affiliateID=2096&adID=79&opt1=TI&str1=Blade+Runner+1982)http://www.flickchart.com/Assets/Posters/1982/posters/DD16A87882-95ea.jpg (http://www.moviegoods.com/affiliate2/adClick.asp?affiliateID=2096&adID=79&opt1=TI&str1=Blade+Runner+1982)http://www.flickchart.com/Assets/Posters/1982/posters/DD16A87882-81af.jpg (http://www.moviegoods.com/affiliate2/adClick.asp?affiliateID=2096&adID=79&opt1=TI&str1=Blade+Runner+1982)

Total Points Earned: 112
Compared to Previous List: http://unassistedsports.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/Down-Arrow.jpg 17 spots

[honeykid]

Boooooo!!!! :p

[nebbit]

Boooooo!!!! :p
You don't like Blade Runner :eek:

[Miss Vicky]

Blade Runner: Yet another I haven't seen.

Though I suspect I won't like it when I do watch it.

[honeykid]

You don't like Blade Runner :eek:
:nope:

Still, I have to be honest and say I'm heartened to see both Braveheart and The Lord Of The Rings Trilogy both outside the top 20 and Blade Runner at #20. There may actually be some films in this top 10 that I really like. This is good. It will make me :).

[nebbit]

Blade Runner: Yet another I haven't seen.

Though I suspect I won't like it when I do watch it.
Miss Vicky you need to watch some movies fast ;D

[honeykid]

I agree. I'd watch Blade Runner fast... x16 at least. :D

[Miss Vicky]

Miss Vicky you need to watch some movies fast ;D


Hey, it's on my Netflix Queue. Though I can't say I'm eagerly awaiting its arrival in my mailbox. I'm not exactly a fan of Science Fiction.

[mark f]

Now you have to figure out which version of Blade Runner to watch. :cool:

[honeykid]

That's a good point. After the Directors Cut was released it was the version you had to see. But there appears to be either a revision of the first version or a backlash against the second among some fans of the film. That's actually the most interesting thing about the film, IMO.

[genesis_pig]

I've seen only the Director's Cut.

IMO Ridley Scott's best film.

[Miss Vicky]

I'm going with the original cut. It's shorter.

[wintertriangles]

The original cut of Brazil was shorter too. Look how that turned out

[ash_is_the_gal]

The original cut of Brazil was shorter too. Look how that turned out

*shudder

[Miss Vicky]

Brazil - one of the many highly acclaimed movies that I didn't like.

[Powdered Water]

I have the Blade Runner briefcase. As I know a few other MoFo's do as well.

It rocks... plain and simple.

I still like the film quite a bit and yet it does leave me a little cold at times. But I can't argue with just how visionary the theme was at the time. Good stuff.

http://dailypop.files.wordpress.com/2007/06/bladerunner5discultimatedvd.jpg

[PumaMan]

I have the Blade Runner briefcase.

Well, I have The Puma Man briefcase. So there. :p

[genesis_pig]

Well, I have The Puma Man briefcase. So there. :p

Pictures or you are lying.

[PumaMan]

Pictures or you are lying.

Prove that I don't have pictures. :p

[genesis_pig]

Because there is only one PumaMan Briefcase in the world & it's in my possession.

I stylized it to look like a PigCase...

[PumaMan]

Because there is only one PumaMan Briefcase in the world & it's in my possession.

I stylized it to look like a PigCase...

Why I oughta . . . You lie like the dog on the rug! If only I had six more years in the service and lived by a lake, I would rip your head off and crap down your neck. :p

[wintertriangles]

I would rip your head off and crap down your neck. :pI love you

[PumaMan]

I love you

Stolen. From several movies. But most fondly from one of the soldiers (the Swede) in the Clint Eastwood movie Heartbreak Ridge.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4gAZKsL2CU

[nebbit]

Hey, it's on my Netflix Queue. Though I can't say I'm eagerly awaiting its arrival in my mailbox. I'm not exactly a fan of Science Fiction.
Thats what I said :yup: when I saw it at the movies I was converted :yup:

[rauldc14]

A little late, but I haven't seen this list in awhile. Really glad to see Seven on it, and I really haven't seen much of the last couple ones besides that.

[planet news]

Never name references, PumaMan. Never do it.

[PumaMan]

Never name references, PumaMan. Never do it.

Well, I didn't want WT to think I thought that up myself. Not that clever. :)

[Sedai]

I'm going with the original cut. It's shorter.

Huge, huge mistake.

Frankly, don't bother watching the film. It kind of seems like you are already down on the film a bit, searching for a fast way out when you watch it. I mean, why bother if you have already decided you won't like it before you see the first frame?

[WBadger]

19. Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind (2004, Gondry)

http://www.jonathanrosenbaum.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/eternal_sunshine_of_the_spotless_mind.jpg

http://www.flickchart.com/Assets/Posters/2004/posters/eternal_sunshine_of_the_spotless_mind_ver2.jpg (http://www.moviegoods.com/affiliate2/adClick.asp?affiliateID=2096&adID=79&opt1=TI&str1=Eternal+Sunshine+of+the+Spotless+Mind+2004)http://www.flickchart.com/Assets/Posters/2004/posters/eternal_sunshine_of_the_spotless_mind_ver1.jpg (http://www.moviegoods.com/affiliate2/adClick.asp?affiliateID=2096&adID=79&opt1=TI&str1=Eternal+Sunshine+of+the+Spotless+Mind+2004)http://www.flickchart.com/Assets/Posters/2004/posters/eternal_sunshine_of_the_spotless_mind_ver6.jpg (http://www.moviegoods.com/affiliate2/adClick.asp?affiliateID=2096&adID=79&opt1=TI&str1=Eternal+Sunshine+of+the+Spotless+Mind+2004)

Total Points Earned: 118
Compared to Previous List: http://unassistedsports.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/Down-Arrow.jpg 10 spots

[Xanatos]

Fantastic movie, easily one of my favorites