Obama!!!

Obama's buy American policy is hurting Canadian companys so I don't care much for him. Maybe Canada should cut California's power off.

I will lay my cards out on the table here: I agree with a lot of what 42nd is saying, but a scorched Earth policy (pun not intended) never works. It is also a matter of how one comes across. Yes it is alright to be angry and upset and to rant, but at the same time if you want people to listen and accept one has to come across as levelheaded. I am not trying to call you out or anything, I am just saying in my experience flying off the handle about any situation just negates any real wedge one might have had otherwise. Be passionate, be angry, but also understand that some of those that disagree or cannot grasp your ideology are not all bad or ignorant people. I condemned many things over the years I have been here that have happened in countries that are virtually 100% Muslim. The awful ideals that religion has toward woman and gays is just downright not acceptable, and why it is I do not know. Gays are hung in Iran one one hand and I use the word "gay" to describe something stupid on the other - who are gays more mad at? Me. So it seems anyway. We cannot strip mine a religion even if we wanted too, but we can condemn activities no matter what religious heading they fall under.

^ Well said that man.

I've been reading this thread intently since the Islamic debate kicked up between 42nd, Yoda and Golgot (to name but a few), and like 7th I also want to lay my cards on the table. Essentially I agree with the majority of what 42nd has said so far, but that doesn't mean I like the way he has said it (all capitals, underlined text, exclamation marks, and condescending sarcasm). It just undermines the validity of his argument to me, because the posts come off as angry rants, bordering on the aggressive side. I've plus repped 7th because his post summed up exactly how I've been feeling reading this thread over the last couple of weeks. On the one hand I'm somewhat frustrated the majority of people here aren't in agreement with 42nd; to me at least the points he's making are blatantly obvious. Though I'd also like to add that I don't think 'religiously cleansing' muslims is the answer, even if I do think Islamic fundamentalism is abhorrent. I'd also like to point out that not once has 42nd suggested that's what we should be doing either.

It seems over the last couple of decades western society has been conditioned and herded into an age of political correctness gone mad. By doing so we've created a rod for our own backs and walked into a religious war we can't possibly win, because the enemy isn't playing by our 'politically correct' rules. I'm not saying we should do a complete u-turn, start donning swastikas, and lynching arabs in the street. But surely we must find some kind of moderate middle ground with the way we approach this conflict, and stop thinking of the West as the aggressor/bad guy. 42nd is right about challenging Islam and demanding the religion reform. That is where the battle starts, in our classrooms, and workplaces. We're too soft with these people and they're walking all over us. Does anyone think they'll show us the same courtesy once Muslims outnumber other faiths in Britain? You're living in dream land if you believe that.

__________________
100 Favourites From The Future: REWIRED

GOLGOT:
I never said anything about ALL Muslims. Again, you make up crap to suit your agenda.
I said that there is no such thing as a truly devout Muslim who is in any way at all moderate.
Comes from truly living your life through all facets of an unreformed extremist belief. Simple!

I can show you Catholics that actually are stunningly liberal. But that's only because they actually ignore much of Catholicism! See?

But as far as the truly devout of a radical belief go..No, there are no moderates.
There are no truly devout moderate Catholics.
There are no truly devout moderate Stalinists.
There are no truly devout moderate Muslims.
There are no truly devout moderate Nazis.

The blindingly obvious being excused away by tragic PC delusions once more insists there are though. Sand...Head...In...


Everyone
Well...Not quite alone as I thought. Thanks for that.

I can't help the way I put things. I get annoyed and then write like I would speak if in a verbal argument.

I'm not a monster, a Nazi, or remotely illiberal. But my 'rants' are born of 8 years of frustration as things get worse. Having a Daughter 5 years ago also made the anger at what I see, and not see, stronger.

I take back nothing at all that I have said. Not a thing.
Although again, I never mentioned any 'scorched earth' bollox.

But I take back some of the ways I have said them.

I like you guys and I like this place...But a social animal I am not.
So excuse me my unsociable way of expressing the (to me) frustratingly obvious about the (to me) greatest (non-environmental) threat our societies (and our families) face.

Heh, i liked your post before you edited it. Almost had the more chilled out tone the others were asking for

I honestly don't have an agenda as such, I just disagree strongly with how you want to go about tackling the 'West vs Islam' clash.

You want all Muslims out of the UK, for example. Is that right? Because that's how it comes across. That is treating them as a 'monolithic' block, as Spencer puts it.

I've characterised your position as such, partially because I can't help match anger with anger at times, and also because many of your 'recommendations' point to that kind of result. IE You seem to want all Muslims out of the West, and your solution to any extreme actions that they then partake in, or which may still impact us here, should be solved thusly:

That seems to sum up your sentiments. Ship 'em out, torch em if they step out of line. I happen to disagree with that as an approach.

I honestly don't think your a monster (or a Nazi ) etc. I do wonder (as mark has) about what experiences have driven you to this level of fervour. You haven't felt the need to share anything from your private life on this, but it might help drive home what you see happening on our home shores if you could bring some personal experience to the mix.

If by 'what I see' you mean some of the evidence you've prevented here, then I'd just point out that some of it isn't true. The 'Muslims bulldoze graveyards' stuff etc etc.

__________________
Virtual Reality chatter on a movie site? Got endless amounts of it here. Reviews over here

I think Obama is cool much better than that idiot Brown

__________________

~In the event of a Zombie Uprising, remember to sever the head or destroy the brain!~

Hey Used, I'm glad you've stepped in

This is the point though, we should challenge aspects of Islam that don't mesh with UK society, you're right. I don't think you can 'demand' a religion reform as such though - it just ends with more physical and mental ghettoisation. You can confront individuals on behaviour, prohibit some by law and argue about others face to face when you disagree etc. But my personal opinion is that the best way to influence Islam for the better of all concerned (as arrogant as it may seem to some) is through as much cross-exposure as possible. One of the biggest benefits of having a 'sizeable' Islamic community in the UK will eventually be increased dissemination of English translations of the Quran (it'll take time, due to the key taboo - but it existed in Christianity too), and English-language preaching too (the 7/7 mastermind had a 'peace preaching' imam apparently, but was unable to understand him as he preached in Urdu & Arabic). This allows for a more 'democratic' approach to the religion, as it were, with people picking the interpretation they like best (something that seems to have blunted some of the more bloodthirsty aspects of Christianity over the centuries).

I've gotta say though, you're also living in a dream land if you think those '50% Muslim by 2050' statistics are nailed on. That's not the type of 'sizeable' Islamic community i foresee taking hold here. So much can, and doubtless will, happen in the meantime. I've discussed some of the issues earlier.

Glad you jumped in too 7th

I know you've got a lot of experience 'out in the field' as it were, and have seen a lot and shared a lot with guys from those regions. I don't agree with 'PC' avoidance of criticism either, but you've got to admit that those behaviours you talk about aren't nearly as common in the 'West' amongst Muslim practitioners, in part because we've all got the freedom here to call a c*nt a c*nt, as it were

I can’t vote on Obama just yet. I do feel that it doesn’t matter who the president is, that there are people in our government that won’t let any president succeed. There’s always an opposing force ruining all good things for the people.

As a person who'd voted Democrat since I began voting, I had been leaning towards Obama (I'd voted for him in our state Primary) until he voted for the FISA Bill, and for continued funding of our war on Iraq, even after he'd gone on record as being opposed to both of the above. When Obama voted the way he voted on both of the above, I decided that anybody who'd throw any part of our Constitution under the bus didn't deserve to be elected dog-catcher, much less President of the United States. It was clear that, no matter who became POTUS, whether it be Obama or McCain, that we were once again going to get screwed big-time. After thinking about it for a long time prior to the election, I decided to do a write-in vote, rather than vote either the Obama/Biden ticket or the McCain/Palin ticket, writing in Bernie Sanders and Dennis Kucinich.

__________________
"It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brush fires of freedom in the minds of men." -- Samuel Adams (1722-1803)

Seems someone else totally agrees with me (and not Obama).....I'll let these (your fellow) Americans speak and do my job for me.
Nice to see though, that free speech is still such a sacred thing in America.


"This was not a random act of violence...It was premeditated".

But hey, this is just their view and they're just extremely devout, well schooled in the Quran Muslims...what do they know!?

We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one Golgot. I was expecting a response from you regarding my post, as I know you have a different take on the situation, and I respect that. It's just that we're light years apart when it comes to the spread of Islam in the UK and it's impact over the next few decades.

The bottom line though is that I don't want to get drawn into a debate about it. We'll just end up going round in circles much like you have with 42nd, and I don't want to risk any bad feeling. I just wanted to let everyone know where I stand on the issue and be done with it. Ultimately I'm just here to geek around and talk about movies; it's an escapism thing. Now excuse me whilst I go and bury my head in the sand.

Ok mate fair play. I can't help but want to understand differing positions and that (and then argue with them some ) but I get if you don't want to play that game. I've got no desire for bad blood etc.

I feel so disconnected from our current president. I now get how others of this country felt against Bush. I did not understand how a citizen of this country could dislike their leader so much. Now I do. I can say this however: Obama is our president and he was elected by us, so therefore I will respect his position, but I hope others respect my right to think he is full of crap.

I haven't cared too much for any of our presidents since Truman, although I'm less critical of some (Ike, for instance) than I used to be. But I'm all for the person who wins the plurality being entitled to his 4-year term.

Doesn't mean I have to be crazy about him or even respect him and his policies. But it doesn't bother me that he and his supporters have a different viewpoint and goal than I do.

Thing I've never been able to understand is hating or even disliking a politician. That's too personal an emotion--more than a complete stranger deserves--and face it, politicians are strangers to the rank and file who focus on what they say and have no idea what they really believe.

For instance, I thought Nixon was about the worse person who ever held that office because of his naked grab for power through illegal means. But I have no personal hate or dislike for him. His struggle to rise from his humble beginnings actually is sort of inspiring, except for the means he too often used to achieve that goal.

I still say no president is ever as good as his supporters hope nor as bad as his detractors fear. And in the long run, less than a handful leave a lasting mark on this country.

I am tired of this health care crap. I do not think health care itself is crap, but I certainly do think our politicians that are supposed to represent "us" are crap. Yup, both Reps and Dems - they r both full of crap to me at this point. The Dems want way to Fing much, and the Reps want too little, good lord why is there no acceptable middle ground?

"President Obama has shattered the budget record for first-year presidents -- spending nearly double what his predecessor did when he came into office and far exceeding the first-year tabs for any other U.S. president in history. "

Seems he's just a face.
He's done basically nothing of what he said he was going to do (still in Iraq, still got Gitmo - though they can rot there for all I care) and his dithering over Afghanistan has got so bad now that British Government Minsters and Army top brass are now openly criticising the amount of time he's taking to tell, everyone else there, what exactly he's going to do!

Seems Obama is out of his depth, all spin, all grins for the camera, all photo ops with his cute family dog, vapid nothingness.
At least Bush, loon though he was, actually had drive and actually did something!

The most effort Obama puts into anything is appeasement and apologies to our enemies while everyone elase just sits there waiting for him to do...something...anything...

Oh well...at least he's the first Black President. That enough?

*PHEW*
It's okay.

Obama HAS found time to do something vital. Writing a lovely personal letter to people worthy of receiving a letter from The President!
http://www.weaselzippers.net/blog/20...overnment.html

And Obama's 'Christian' (hmmm....) Grandmother has made a pilgrimage to Mecca for The Hajj.
The same Hajj (the holiest of events in the holiest of places for the 'religion of Peace') that saw thousands chant "Death to America and Israel" ...in a most holy and, of course, peaceful way.

Wonder what Granny Obama thought? Or did she just hum along?

Any particular reason why you missed out the phrase "...was delivered to rebel peace negotiators"?

Despite none of us knowing the contents of the letter, it seems reasonable to assume it's an 'outreach' exercise by Obama, most likely relating to the peace negotiations. If that's the case, is it such a terrible thing? It doesn't seem to be 'negotiating with terrorists' as such, and it's probably done with an eye on obtaining a peaceful conclusion in some form or other. You probably see it as appeasement, but would you reject peace talks in any form?

And there you go with your monoliths again

Most of what you are saying I can agree with, most Bush policies are securely locked in place, and most seem more concerned with the first lady's wardrobe.

Saying that Bush was better, just because he did something, even if a lot of it reaped negative consequences, i.e.; Iraqi invasion, or implementing Gitmo in the first place, and that the guy who breaks his promise to rectify those mistakes is worse, is like saying; "at least Eric Harris had a hobby, unlike most lazy teenagers."

Also, I'm sick to death of hearing people say; "He's apologizing for America," because he actually acknowledged that mistakes were made by the previous administration on foreign policy. (gasp!) admitting mistakes, that might actually mean that we are capable of self-evaluation. Okay, since it's so improper to criticize the previous administration, I don't want to hear conservatives claiming in the next election that they'll make America Strong again, and be more aggressive. So, I guess that when Reagan apologized for Jimmy Carter's mistakes, that was okay, right? I mean he ran on restrengthening America, inferring that we were in a weakened state.

__________________


...uh the post is up there...