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Having worked in Intelligence for over a decade in the Air Force, I can tell you that THE Intelligence Officer, while having access to all available information technically, generally has very little to do with gathering, processing, analyzing or disseminating that information. THE Intelligence Officer is in charge of running the place in which those who actually perform those functions do their job and very little else. Now, I won't argue that IF anything of the magnitude of the alleged happenings at Roswell occurred, that intelligence officer would be called in, but he/she (he at the time) would not be in a position of as much authority as you seem to believe, would likely get as much of a bum's rush as everyone of lower rank while the REAL authorities and powers-that-be stepped in and made their hush-hush.
Do you think any movies are educational?
Having worked in Intelligence for over a decade in the Air Force, I can tell you that THE Intelligence Officer, while having access to all available information technically, generally has very little to do with gathering, processing, analyzing or disseminating that information. THE Intelligence Officer is in charge of running the place in which those who actually perform those functions do their job and very little else. Now, I won't argue that IF anything of the magnitude of the alleged happenings at Roswell occurred, that intelligence officer would be called in, but he/she (he at the time) would not be in a position of as much authority as you seem to believe, would likely get as much of a bum's rush as everyone of lower rank while the REAL authorities and powers-that-be stepped in and made their hush-hush.
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THIS is why the Roswell incident is still considered a conspiracy. 
We should create a thread devoted purely to this discussion. At this point, the original thread was hijacked so long ago the family has given up on getting any ransom out of it.
We should create a thread devoted purely to this discussion. At this point, the original thread was hijacked so long ago the family has given up on getting any ransom out of it.
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"I was walking down the street with my friend and he said, "I hear music", as if there is any other way you can take it in. You're not special, that's how I receive it too. I tried to taste it but it did not work." - Mitch Hedberg
"I was walking down the street with my friend and he said, "I hear music", as if there is any other way you can take it in. You're not special, that's how I receive it too. I tried to taste it but it did not work." - Mitch Hedberg
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I think there's a lot of assumptions on both sides, and in your same generous spirit, I'll give you my justifications. The 509 might have been one of the most famous wings, as you say, but famous isn't the same as elite. Its fame as you point was for dropping the only 2 atomic bombs dropped in warfare. It didn't build the bomb, just dropped it--A very good feat in itself, but not one likely to be known to an alien spying in the Roswell area. Except for loading and dropping the bombs, the 509 crews in 1947 had no connection with making or testing atomic bombs. On the first raid, a Navy commander went with Tibbets' crew to arm the bomb, because none of the 509 knew how.
Moreover, WWII officially ended Sept. 2, 1945, and the US military began winding down the wartime buildup almost immediately. The first to be rotated home and discharged were those who had been in the military the longest and had served overseas; in other words, the most veteran enlisted men, NCOs, and officers--particularly officers: there just wasn't room for that many in peacetime military. Even Jimmy Stewart took a discharge and went home. With so many people being discharged between the end of the war and the Roswell incident on July 7, 1947, I gotta wonder how many real veterans were still with the 509 by then. Were those who were on Tinian when the bomb was loaded and in the air over Japan when it was dropped still with the unit nearly 2 years later? Certainly Tibbets wasn't still in command nor at Roswell. Because of the turnover, I would argue that by the summer of '47 the 509 was not elite nor further advanced in their training than any other bomber wing.
One indication of this is that the 509 participated in the first SAC bombing competition in 1948--and lost to another Air Force unit. (One of their planes did take the Best Crew award, however.) Seems they were good, but not what I'd call elite.
As for the 509 being a "secret" unit in 1947, Roswell was certainly not a secret base, having been built in 1942 to train bomber crews. The only "bombs" dropped in the Roswell area, however, were sacks of flour. To drop real bombs and fire real bullets, the crews had to fly across Texas to practice ranges on islands off the South Texas coast. It's flat as a pancake around Roswell, and the airbase and all those planes in the air would be easily seen. Maybe that's why the secret training of the 509 prior to dropping the bomb was at Wendover Army Air Field in Utah rather than Roswell.
I still don't understand why the Air Force would place its most "elite" bomber unit in a far-off place like Roswell. SAC's purpose was to get the first strike on the enemy if the baloon went up, right? And even by 1947, the military figured if we fought another war, it would be against the Soviet Union. In '47, the main Air Force bomber was still the B-29 Superfortress, with a top speed of 365 mph. Roswell is 794 miles from Los Angeles, which means even an elite bombing wing would take 2 hours or more just to reach the Pacific Ocean on an hours-long mission to bomb Siberia. Does that sound like first-strike capability to you? Flying to the Atlantic would take even longer, but the 509 at Roswell would be in a hell of a good spot for an attack on Mexico.
As for secrets, what secret things was the 509 supposedly doing at Roswell that all the other SAC units weren't doing at other air bases all over the country and in foreign lands? SAC was pretty well advertised from the get-go, with a lot of publicity about its organization and mission. Remember what they said in Dr. Strangelove--what good does it do to have a deterrent weapon if no one knows about it?
Another thing I don't understand--if the 509 was an elite unit at some secret base in 1947, why is it that just 11 years later it was moved to very urbanized New Hampshire and almost disbanded? Did they really go down that badly in just 11 years?
Of course, if one wants to believe aliens crashed on a mission to Roswell, it helps to have an elite bomber wing at a secret base near there to attract them. Don't quite know how the aliens would know this was the unit whose predecessors dropped atom boms on Japan since no such bombs ever were dropped in New Mexico.
But if I were an alien wanting to scope out earth's latest technology, I sure wouldn't waste my time scouting big, lumbering B-29s in the New Mexican desert. No, I'd go buzz Muroc Army Air Field--what is now Edwards AFB--where in 1947 Chuck Yeager was breaking the sound barrier. Now that was a really elite unit that kept secrets longer than the flyboys at Roswell. That and the folks who were building and testing the intercontinental missiles that later replaced the Air Force base at Roswell. On the other hand, the Roswell rocket unit was infamous for blowing up missiles in their silos. Guess there just never was a truly elite Air Force group at Roswell.
As for the hot-shot intelligence officer that goes along with the story, what kind of training would give even the most intelligent intelligence officer a leg up in identifying alien space ships in 1947? Intelligence officers during WWII and afterward mostly looked at films and photos of camouflaged enemy targets and assessed photos of damage from bomb strikes. They weren't metalurgists and didn't design aircraft. They didn't go chasing Tokyo Rose or aliens or run to crash sites.
But then it sounds better if an "intelligence officer" says he saw wreckage of an alien spaceship than if the officer in charge of the motor pool makes the same claim.
None of it really matters--people who want to believe in Roswell and aliens will do so and nothing anyone says will make them question those beliefs. Belief in aliens and conspiracies is the new religion, embraced as devoutly by followers as any other.
Moreover, WWII officially ended Sept. 2, 1945, and the US military began winding down the wartime buildup almost immediately. The first to be rotated home and discharged were those who had been in the military the longest and had served overseas; in other words, the most veteran enlisted men, NCOs, and officers--particularly officers: there just wasn't room for that many in peacetime military. Even Jimmy Stewart took a discharge and went home. With so many people being discharged between the end of the war and the Roswell incident on July 7, 1947, I gotta wonder how many real veterans were still with the 509 by then. Were those who were on Tinian when the bomb was loaded and in the air over Japan when it was dropped still with the unit nearly 2 years later? Certainly Tibbets wasn't still in command nor at Roswell. Because of the turnover, I would argue that by the summer of '47 the 509 was not elite nor further advanced in their training than any other bomber wing.
One indication of this is that the 509 participated in the first SAC bombing competition in 1948--and lost to another Air Force unit. (One of their planes did take the Best Crew award, however.) Seems they were good, but not what I'd call elite.
As for the 509 being a "secret" unit in 1947, Roswell was certainly not a secret base, having been built in 1942 to train bomber crews. The only "bombs" dropped in the Roswell area, however, were sacks of flour. To drop real bombs and fire real bullets, the crews had to fly across Texas to practice ranges on islands off the South Texas coast. It's flat as a pancake around Roswell, and the airbase and all those planes in the air would be easily seen. Maybe that's why the secret training of the 509 prior to dropping the bomb was at Wendover Army Air Field in Utah rather than Roswell.
I still don't understand why the Air Force would place its most "elite" bomber unit in a far-off place like Roswell. SAC's purpose was to get the first strike on the enemy if the baloon went up, right? And even by 1947, the military figured if we fought another war, it would be against the Soviet Union. In '47, the main Air Force bomber was still the B-29 Superfortress, with a top speed of 365 mph. Roswell is 794 miles from Los Angeles, which means even an elite bombing wing would take 2 hours or more just to reach the Pacific Ocean on an hours-long mission to bomb Siberia. Does that sound like first-strike capability to you? Flying to the Atlantic would take even longer, but the 509 at Roswell would be in a hell of a good spot for an attack on Mexico.
As for secrets, what secret things was the 509 supposedly doing at Roswell that all the other SAC units weren't doing at other air bases all over the country and in foreign lands? SAC was pretty well advertised from the get-go, with a lot of publicity about its organization and mission. Remember what they said in Dr. Strangelove--what good does it do to have a deterrent weapon if no one knows about it?
Another thing I don't understand--if the 509 was an elite unit at some secret base in 1947, why is it that just 11 years later it was moved to very urbanized New Hampshire and almost disbanded? Did they really go down that badly in just 11 years?
Of course, if one wants to believe aliens crashed on a mission to Roswell, it helps to have an elite bomber wing at a secret base near there to attract them. Don't quite know how the aliens would know this was the unit whose predecessors dropped atom boms on Japan since no such bombs ever were dropped in New Mexico.
But if I were an alien wanting to scope out earth's latest technology, I sure wouldn't waste my time scouting big, lumbering B-29s in the New Mexican desert. No, I'd go buzz Muroc Army Air Field--what is now Edwards AFB--where in 1947 Chuck Yeager was breaking the sound barrier. Now that was a really elite unit that kept secrets longer than the flyboys at Roswell. That and the folks who were building and testing the intercontinental missiles that later replaced the Air Force base at Roswell. On the other hand, the Roswell rocket unit was infamous for blowing up missiles in their silos. Guess there just never was a truly elite Air Force group at Roswell.
As for the hot-shot intelligence officer that goes along with the story, what kind of training would give even the most intelligent intelligence officer a leg up in identifying alien space ships in 1947? Intelligence officers during WWII and afterward mostly looked at films and photos of camouflaged enemy targets and assessed photos of damage from bomb strikes. They weren't metalurgists and didn't design aircraft. They didn't go chasing Tokyo Rose or aliens or run to crash sites.
But then it sounds better if an "intelligence officer" says he saw wreckage of an alien spaceship than if the officer in charge of the motor pool makes the same claim.
None of it really matters--people who want to believe in Roswell and aliens will do so and nothing anyone says will make them question those beliefs. Belief in aliens and conspiracies is the new religion, embraced as devoutly by followers as any other.
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Since the original question was, "Do you think any movies are educational?", I think all of these replies confirm my original point, that if a film exposes us to something we did not know, even if simply by causing us to do further research, then it has "some" educational value. The very act of listing the movie sparked some great debates.
On the subject of conspiracies and coverups and such, some films are just fountains of misinformation, like Stone's JFK and that giant horse-apple Close Encounters. In that early scene when the "scientists" went around that building and found those Avenger dive bombers sitting there, I thought, "Oh, no, not that old s--t again!!" That and the fact that no one in the movie or audience appeared to recognize the Devil's Tower formation.
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Never Cry Wolf is one of my favorite examples of a movie with a LOT to offer.
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Ya know, rufnek, even someone as all-knowing-and-all-seeing as you would have a tough time identifying Devil's Tower from a pile of mashed potatoes. As far as the trash that Roy Neary builds into his living room, there's absolutely no reason the average person would identify Devil's Tower before 1977 unless they'd been there. I didn't go there until 1989.
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This is an interesting question. Many, if not most of the movies that I've gravitated towards and watched are not only entertaining, but are also educational in some way or other, even though they're fiction. Here are some examples:
West Side Story: This, as everybody here knows, is my alltime favorite movie, hands down. That not withstanding, however, I believe that West Side Story, although it's fiction, is based on and closer to reality in some respects: urban gang warfare, racial/ethnic tensions, and crossing the racial/ethnic/color barrier(s) to fall in love, date, and even marry. Not only is it beautifully filmed, photographed, choreographed (dancing), and well-directed, but has a beautiful story and musical score behind it, too. Unlike many, if not most movies that revolve around gang warfare and that seem to glorify gang violence, West Side Story, imho, carries a different message: The destructive consequences of prejudice and violence, and the realization that gang violence is not the way to go, nor is it to be glorified. Yet, there's also a ray of hope offered in the end, as well; when several Jets and several Sharks come together to carry Tony's body off after he has been gunned down by an angry Shark gang member Chino, who avenged the stabbing of Shark gangleader, Bernardo by Tony, who'd avenged his old friend Riff's stabbing death by Bernardo. West Side Story depicts the senseless of gang violence, and yet sends a message that reconciliation is also possible, if people take the time to reach out to each other, which, unfortunately, is easier said than done.
Billy Jack: This movie, about a Green Beret Viet Nam vet, who's half white and half Native American who becomes more in tune with his Native American roots after returning from the war and turning against it, takes up solo residence on an Indian Reservation, which is near a Progressive "Freedom School" run by a kindly woman named Jean Roberts, who Billy Jack is in love with, The school is for runaway kids and is a peace-oriented school, which is open to kids of all races and has few rules, all of which irk the townspeople in the nearby, very conservative town. Much conflict takes place, especially when Bernard, the son of Stuart Posner who runs the town, physically abuses and humiliates the Native American kids when some of the kids go into an ice cream shop and are denied service, tries unsuccessfully to hit on a couple of female students from the school, ties down and brutally rapes Jean Roberts, the Freedom School director, which Billy Jack soon figures out. In addition to all that, Bernard not only ends up shooting and killing Martin, a gentle Native American boy, but is found in a shabby hotel room at the edge of town making out with a 13-year-old girl, who is ordered out by Billy Jack, who kills Bernard with a karate chop to the throat when Bernard tries to shoot him.
Billy Jack then takes sanctuary in an old church on the edge of town, hiding out from the law, later having a shoot-out with them when he kills the father of another female student at the school who he'd helped hide there earlier, and ultimately surrenders to the law under the condition that (A) That the Freedom School be granted enough money to run for the next ten years uninterrupted (B) That 15-year-old Barbara be under the custody of Jean Roberts, and (C) That the govennor's office hold annual press conferences to check on and report on the Freedom School's progress.
Billy Jack, imho, sends a much more mixed message than West Side Story : That sometimes one has to fight back against racism and oppression in order to survive, and that a certain amount of violence is sometimes necessary for self-defense, and yet it can also be taken too far.
Schindler's List and The Pianist are also educational, because they depict how age-old cruelty, violence and prejudice that have long existed in the world can be and often enough are taken to much more horrific, dangerous extremes, and that it's important to fight against that before it happens, if only to keep history from repeating itself.
Jaws: Whether most people know it or not, Jaws is loosely based on the book Close to Shore (the author's name escapes me at the moment), which is a true story about a resort on the coast of New Jersey that is terrorized by a Great White Shark, which, for some reason, became trapped in the waters in the area. Many deaths occur before the maurauding Great White Shark is caught and killed. It takes place in the early 1900's.
The Greening of Southie: This is an interesting documentary about what went into the planning and construction of a "green" building in a tough white working-class section of Boston: South Boston, which is also known, especially by the denizens of the area, as "Southie". Real Estate Agents, construction workers, lifetime and longtime residents of Southie, as well as some of the residents of the Macallen building are interviewed. The building is made with recycled steel, as well as many "green" and natural materials. There are problems with buckling bamboo floors, and expanding wheatboard cabinets, but those are eventually solved. Although there's some resistance to the building from a number of the locals of the area, the planning and construction of the building takes place, it's more accepted by the locals, and it's standing there right now, with condos that range in price from $500, 000.00-$2000, 000.00. I believe that this film points out that "green" buildings that're environmentally friendly, are possible to construct.
West Side Story: This, as everybody here knows, is my alltime favorite movie, hands down. That not withstanding, however, I believe that West Side Story, although it's fiction, is based on and closer to reality in some respects: urban gang warfare, racial/ethnic tensions, and crossing the racial/ethnic/color barrier(s) to fall in love, date, and even marry. Not only is it beautifully filmed, photographed, choreographed (dancing), and well-directed, but has a beautiful story and musical score behind it, too. Unlike many, if not most movies that revolve around gang warfare and that seem to glorify gang violence, West Side Story, imho, carries a different message: The destructive consequences of prejudice and violence, and the realization that gang violence is not the way to go, nor is it to be glorified. Yet, there's also a ray of hope offered in the end, as well; when several Jets and several Sharks come together to carry Tony's body off after he has been gunned down by an angry Shark gang member Chino, who avenged the stabbing of Shark gangleader, Bernardo by Tony, who'd avenged his old friend Riff's stabbing death by Bernardo. West Side Story depicts the senseless of gang violence, and yet sends a message that reconciliation is also possible, if people take the time to reach out to each other, which, unfortunately, is easier said than done.
Billy Jack: This movie, about a Green Beret Viet Nam vet, who's half white and half Native American who becomes more in tune with his Native American roots after returning from the war and turning against it, takes up solo residence on an Indian Reservation, which is near a Progressive "Freedom School" run by a kindly woman named Jean Roberts, who Billy Jack is in love with, The school is for runaway kids and is a peace-oriented school, which is open to kids of all races and has few rules, all of which irk the townspeople in the nearby, very conservative town. Much conflict takes place, especially when Bernard, the son of Stuart Posner who runs the town, physically abuses and humiliates the Native American kids when some of the kids go into an ice cream shop and are denied service, tries unsuccessfully to hit on a couple of female students from the school, ties down and brutally rapes Jean Roberts, the Freedom School director, which Billy Jack soon figures out. In addition to all that, Bernard not only ends up shooting and killing Martin, a gentle Native American boy, but is found in a shabby hotel room at the edge of town making out with a 13-year-old girl, who is ordered out by Billy Jack, who kills Bernard with a karate chop to the throat when Bernard tries to shoot him.
Billy Jack then takes sanctuary in an old church on the edge of town, hiding out from the law, later having a shoot-out with them when he kills the father of another female student at the school who he'd helped hide there earlier, and ultimately surrenders to the law under the condition that (A) That the Freedom School be granted enough money to run for the next ten years uninterrupted (B) That 15-year-old Barbara be under the custody of Jean Roberts, and (C) That the govennor's office hold annual press conferences to check on and report on the Freedom School's progress.
Billy Jack, imho, sends a much more mixed message than West Side Story : That sometimes one has to fight back against racism and oppression in order to survive, and that a certain amount of violence is sometimes necessary for self-defense, and yet it can also be taken too far.
Schindler's List and The Pianist are also educational, because they depict how age-old cruelty, violence and prejudice that have long existed in the world can be and often enough are taken to much more horrific, dangerous extremes, and that it's important to fight against that before it happens, if only to keep history from repeating itself.
Jaws: Whether most people know it or not, Jaws is loosely based on the book Close to Shore (the author's name escapes me at the moment), which is a true story about a resort on the coast of New Jersey that is terrorized by a Great White Shark, which, for some reason, became trapped in the waters in the area. Many deaths occur before the maurauding Great White Shark is caught and killed. It takes place in the early 1900's.
The Greening of Southie: This is an interesting documentary about what went into the planning and construction of a "green" building in a tough white working-class section of Boston: South Boston, which is also known, especially by the denizens of the area, as "Southie". Real Estate Agents, construction workers, lifetime and longtime residents of Southie, as well as some of the residents of the Macallen building are interviewed. The building is made with recycled steel, as well as many "green" and natural materials. There are problems with buckling bamboo floors, and expanding wheatboard cabinets, but those are eventually solved. Although there's some resistance to the building from a number of the locals of the area, the planning and construction of the building takes place, it's more accepted by the locals, and it's standing there right now, with condos that range in price from $500, 000.00-$2000, 000.00. I believe that this film points out that "green" buildings that're environmentally friendly, are possible to construct.
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"It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brush fires of freedom in the minds of men." -- Samuel Adams (1722-1803)
"It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brush fires of freedom in the minds of men." -- Samuel Adams (1722-1803)
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