Art & Politics

When a 3 paragraph post gets swallowed


F*cking hell.

Whatever I'll rewrite it later

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Don't mutilate yourself over it.

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It's what you learn after you know it all that counts. - John Wooden
My IMDb page

Mark asked a great deal of direct questions in his first post, so I'm going to respond using those questions as a guideline for my thoughts.

I believe truly good art should make you question (or at least reflect on) your personal politics and philosophies. I don't really mind if a work of art is trying to make a certain point that I don't necessarily agree with (completely), but if it is so unoriginal, unrefreshing and boring that it doesn't even make me (want to) reflect on my own views, I will not appreciate it at all (on a content level). If an artist tries to tackle politics or philosophy, it should be in a way that makes me ask some really profound questions (preferably questions that I've never asked myself before).
I have to admit that I'll probably be more willing to forgive (for instance) films that do seem to defend worldviews or life visions that I tend to agree with, even if they aren't necessarily that profound or refreshing, but I do think I've become a much more critical person in that respect compared to a couple of years ago.

I also have to point out here that most of my personal convictions have become much more flexible than for instance three years ago, while only a few others have become "firmer". I suspect that the increased flexibility is (in part) a result of my journey through cinema, because it has exposed me to worldviews of thousands of film characters and hundreds of writers and directors. Personal beliefs are always partly a result of your environment and as cinema has been a big part of my environment during the last couple of years, it has changed my ideas about life quite a bit. Art influenced me as a thinking person.

It's not possible to separate them, unless you're (for instance) only interested in judging the technique of a film, while not caring about the substance. I think I'm definitely a person that is able to do that, so in that sense I'm very open-minded. I don't mind watching films that I think are inherently stupid as long as the cinematic aspect of the film is a pleasure to behold and interesting to study.

If you want to consider yourself as someone who speaks with a certain sense of wisdom, I think you're obliged to constantly confront your own ideas, for instance by means of watching films or reading books that go against your established beliefs. So, yes, we should definitely try!

Yes, because it can sometimes make me understand how the mind of hateful people works. I may not agree with the intentions behind the art, but it can still inspire new understandings and perspectives of thought. That's always interesting.

Enjoyment is not a choice, so in that sense it's totally "fair". You enjoy what you enjoy.
If you want to be consistent, you need to be able to substantiate your enjoyment as well, though. So in these cases, I think it would be fair to defend the films for their technique and justify your enjoyment like that, while still pointing out the problems they have content-wise. As I already stated, I think that kind of "separation" is perfectly possible and I do it very frequently.

That's a pretty difficult question. I think you're only talking about content here so I won't say things like "bad editing" and stuff like that.

If a film is trying to make some kind of "important statement", I think one grievous sin for me is when the substantiating of the statement is outdated. When I hear myself denouncing the "arguments" that the film is using and start rolling my eyes, it's obvious that I am having big problems with the film on an intellectual level, content-wise.

I have to emphasize again, though, that good filmmaking can (practically) always (partly) "save" the overall movie experience for me. Bad content is not necessarily a breakpoint for me.

Art has taught me a lot about myself. It has mainly showed me how close-minded a person I was (and still am today for a large part) and it has exposed my infinite arrogance. Art has also made me perceive, feel and think about many things in manners that I never even realized the existence of before. It has made me a richer person with (I think) a greater understanding of his own ego.
I think movies have partly freed me from certain prejudices I had in life, while making me think deeper about the ones that I'm not exactly freed from (yet). Great art never really reinforces. It should always confront even when the ultimate message might be reinforcing.

Cinema has turned me into a wandering philosophical (and political) paradox, in a sense. The more thought-provoking and convincing arguments and ideas I get out of the many films I watch (or books I read) from different sides on the philosophical and political spectrum, the more and less political I become at the same time. I know more and therefore I know less. The flexibility of my mind increases.

I hope that last bit makes sense to you all. I'm pretty sure at least some people will relate to the sentiment of it.

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Cobpyth's Movie Log ~ 2019

I'm not sure if this is what you're looking for, but: when it comes to films that involve politics I for the most part find them fascinating. We live in an age of mass information, knowledge is available everywhere you look, it takes a quick search to find thousand of interesting articles relating to issues, there's plenty more books, too. Because I would like to think I have sensible politics views and a good knowledge of it in general, I find it really watch films from all sorts of other perspectives, to understand the directors, the time, the place, the society. Films can be a massive insight in to the mind of the director and the country, you can read a book about a culture, or watch a film in much less time. The camera is like a paintbrush, or a pen, it has the ability to gloriously capture time and space in a way that's only possible in his medium.

I would also say that my pretty much set in stone religious beliefs (best described as being an atheist) mean that I understand more religious films better. Whilst I feel some people love films with religious content just because of that reason, I can withdraw myself from that element and focus largely on content and how good I actually think the film is, if its well made and a fascinating study into religion, faith, life etc. then it can be great, like Ordet.

I think the same applies to being fairly left on the political spectrum, I know a lot of people that will watch films, particularly action ones and love it because the 'hero kicks ass' and whilst I don't think that's neccesary a bad thing, sometimes I question just why they love it so much. I'm talking about films like Law Abiding Citizen, a film I enjoyed when I first watched it but don't like so much now, I think the story is a mess and its story feels slightly like a celebrating of an attitude I dislike, and what makes it worse is the general opinion/thoughts of the people I watch it with.

I think a few things are important when considering a film involved with politics or a work with a strong set of beliefs: Are the views a reflection of the director or merely a character in the film? Or has the fact that the director has constructed such a film mean the they are at least partly responsible for them? Is the film intended to be a study, experiment, well balanced film etc. or is the intention of the plot to pull the viewer towards one mindset or another in order to get a reaction?

As for my beliefs in film, I'm not sure. I couldn't pin point to many exact examples. Most films seem to be one direction or another, far right or left, patriotic or anti-establishment, and so on. Compare something like 2 or 3 Things I Know About her (or most things by Godard) and Army of Shadows, one a seemingly left wing anti-establishment look at the evolution of Paris, France, and the conditions of the people who work there, and the other a possibly a pro-right celebration of De Gaulle's regime. Melville himself was a self celebrated right-wing anarchist, and whilst his work may reflect that, I still think it's fascinating to watch.

I thought Andrei Rublev was a really though film to watch at times and I really despised some of the characters and the scenes, especially some of the religious actions and other violent parts. But I was able to appreciate that it was a masterfully constructed an important film, and I think what it depicted seemed balance and believably without trying to impose anything on you. There's the film of Eisenstein which are clearly meant to influence you in a certain way, but I watch them without prejudice as I find them fascinating pieces of film making.

I don't think I would refuse to watch many films because of their content, especially if they're important films and well constructed ones (well at least I've heard). I've yet to watch Nazi propaganda or The Birth of the Nation, although both of them look very interesting. I know some people hate John Ford and the way native Americans are depicted in his films (even though they are depicted like that in a lot of older Westerns) and I think when watching his films I've never had much of a problem. I think the main issue would be that it's quite an easy/lazy option to have them as an enemy, and whilst I'm not very well versed in American History I would imagine this will not have been terribly far from the truth because of the fractions created between them and the way they were treated. Importantly I don't get a pro-racist feel from the films, even something like The Searchers I feel a separation from the main character Ethan and the director and the film itself, well, pretty much everything, it feels like a balanced piece of work that condemns him more than anything and examines his removal and failure to integrate into society more than anything.

I would probably refuse to watch some films though. Those with unnecessary and deliberate animal cruelty, especially for exploitation purposes. I think animal cruelty is disgusting, and even some films that I think are great make me feel uneasy at times. Something like El Topo or Nosferatu. I don't really understand how humans can be like that, take part in the unnecessary murder of animals for no purpose, and for something that could be achieved without doing so. I think my main concern here is the purpose of it, it's so unnecessary and disgusting, something I would never do. With films that are made as propaganda, and/or incite hateful messages it's still up to the viewer how to interpret them, but here the victims are helpless.

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I think, based on the conversation we were having as you were creating this thread, mark, that you were also wondering about how people's beliefs affect how they respond to a film in general, not just its content and not just films with overtly political messages. Are you constantly looking through the lens of your beliefs when encountering a piece of art? And how does that lens inform your viewing? In terms of form, do you respond more to something that's experimental or traditional, for example, and is that because of your own personal (political) beliefs or perspective? Do you only like things that are different, do you like things to stay the same, or are you somewhere between? And is that influenced by, at least in part, your view of the world, your philosophies?

No?

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Well, yes - why didn't I say that? And what's this "mark" crap?

Well I like Nietzsche as you know. So therefore, I really only like paintings of German Nihilists with huge mustaches.

I hope you aren't referring to yourself in the third person..

This "mark" crap is for the benefit of the people at the forums who would go, huh? if I said "dad." Though your response to me saying "dad" would probably be the same, since you only like it with those extra two letters.

Interesting topic… When I think about films, I think I'm willing to see most anything and I'm left of center.

For example, I saw American Sniper and loved it. I thought it was just amazing filmmaking. I saw it before reading how conservatives had taken it upon themselves and adopted the film as some saving grace for their political viewpoints on war and heroes.

Funny, I thought it was an anti-war film. And that's more my view. So, hmmm… wonder what that means? I believe American Sniper makes for some very interesting political discussion.

OTOH, I won't watch Duck Dynasty or any of those reality shows with super religious people (like the Duggars) because I think they are not very nice people. So I would say I let my politics influence my viewing.

But, overall, my history with movies is that I will watch and love films that seem to be more right of center, and the same with liberal films. I have to wonder, though, if you are someone with a very strict code of conduct, there has got to be many films you would hate!

Why would you say so?

Because I think films contain every manner of behavior and a lot of it not very nice, or moral, or ethical, or even easy to watch.

Another example would be the people that refuse to watch Brokeback Mountain or even entertain the notion that love between two men can be wonderful because of their personal views on homosexuality.

Your just describing life, right? Why would someone who has a certain value code only watch movies with people who share that same code?

I understand what your driving at but I think it is a fundamental misunderstanding of how certain segments of our culture think. We have many films about gangsters and serial killers. I wouldn't think that people who watched those films were condoning this behavior.

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Letterboxd

I try to keep an open mind and I don't think my political/other views influence my choice of films.
Obviously,I avoid certain type of films cause I don't like most of them but I never refused to watch a movie just because I thought I might not like it or it might clash with my views. Then again, I think I'm too young to have political views lol
I have just always been a beliver that in every single film genre/theme there is a good film that you will like despite it disagreeing with your beliefs.

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"Anything less than immortality is a complete waste of time."

A lot.
It's not possible.
The less a certain viewpoint is pushed the better.
Unagreeable politics, excessive violence, not relatable subject matter, physical appearance of actors, excessive gore, awkwardness disguised as cool, mean spiritedness disguised as righteousness, characters lacking redeeming qualities all can lessen or completely destroy enjoyment of a movie.
No I can't.

Does my personal beliefs effect my reaction to a movie?

Sure they do...we all judge the world around us through our own beliefs. Could a movie challenge or change my beliefs? I don't think so. I might become more aware of a social problem that I didn't know existed, but if I care or not will come internally from me, not externally from someone elses viewpoint.

If I believe in something and a film shows me the opposite and the film is well done, it won't change my mind but I still might like the film.

When I encounter a film that has rewritten history or views to make it politically correct, it's laughable and I lose respect for that film. Films that pander to the current whims are propaganda. I'll watch historical propaganda for the history lesson, but modern 'PC' films are something that I react negatively too.

I like a movie that represents a solid position, whether I agree with it or not.

I am a hardcore classical liberal, Miyazaki is a hardcore socialist and environmentalist nut. Our philosophies are complete opposites (though his views converged a bit when he wrote the Nausicaa manga). If movies had to reflect my beliefs I couldn't watch almost any of his movies. Much less Tarkovsky's highly religious films since I am an atheist. I don't think I couldn't like most of my favorites of any type of art if I had to agree with the ideologies of the creators.

Yep. Nazi movie about a squad of gestapo men hunting jews for extermination should be perfectly enjoyed and appreciated as a work of fiction.

Which films of his would you call "religious"?

It's a well known fact that his films are very religious and spiritual, even his science fiction films. Though I would say that the most obvious one is Andrei Rublev.