Iraqi POWs: disturbing pix...

"Everyone?" Find me even one person who didn't condemn it.

I haven't noticed anyone condoning it either. I think during the heat of the moment Piddzilla misconstrued Caitlyn's remarks, but other than that nada.

And Piddy, you know Caity better than that, bro.

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"Today, war is too important to be left to politicians. They have neither the time, the training, nor the inclination for strategic thought. I can no longer sit back and allow Communist infiltration, Communist indoctrination, Communist subversion and the international Communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids."

I think you are making a very good point about prevention and punishment of crimes. I hadn't thought about that but that might have something to do with the attitude that pissed me off: "Well, what can you do?"...

I'm no military expert by no means, but I have always been of the opinion that this should have been a campaigne under UN flag rather than lead by the USA (and the reason for that not happening is not just USA's "fault" but the rest of the world's too). That would have been a lot better for a lot of reasons. In this matter it would have been better because then USA probably wouldn't have this many soldiers in Iraq, which would mean that the standard of the soldiers would be higher. That would (hopefully) decrease the risk of having sadists in the army since I presume that american military training and army recruiting are among the best and most selective in the world (but apparently only to a certain extent). Furthermore, I am guessing that if it was UN and not USA that was controlling Iraq the situation wouldn't be the same as it is today because then the whole campaigne wouldn't have the nature of an occupation in the same way. And that is ultimately what is pissing the iraqis off the most - liberated or not.

And except for beneath the certain quotes, my previous post wasn't directed exclusively towards Caitlyn if anyone thought so.


I just don't see what it had to do with the subject. It seemed to me that you brought up what the iraqis had done as an excuse for those soldiers' behaviour, like that they had a reason to do what they did. And I think the whole idea of USA and their allied forces being in Iraq is to hold the Saddam regime accountable for its actions.

And another important difference... This international war crime court (the correct term escapes me). Do you remember the fuss when USA refused to join it and made small 3rd world countries sign contracts promising to never press charges against american soldiers? Well, here you have the reason for it. Iraqi war criminals can be tried in international war crime courts and americans can not.

I can't say I was determined to twist anything around really... Actually, I wrote a post, realized I would probably regret it later since I was furious when I wrote it, I rewrote it and quite frankly I can't see what about it that's so mean or nufair. I disagreed with you, or at least with your wording and if I twisted anything around it was to show you how absurd I thought your post was. That's all.

I don't think you, Caitlyn, think that torture is cool. And I never said that either. But I think you and Yoda take a standpoint that instead of supporting a fierce attack on the problem supports the idea of punishing six individuals and then the whole thing will be out of the way. Something that linespalsy also brought up and something that pissed me off.

Fine...

But if I understand it correctly, the Pentagon and all the bigshots in general didn't blow any whistles in particular before the media did. And I would like to know what the CIA guys were up to.

Semi-excuse was the word I was using and I was referring to what you said about what iraqis did towards american POW:s. As of deniying a bigger problem I was primarily referring to this post actually:

I read Yoda's post (which I disagree with) and I read Caitlyn's post. I could have just written my post without including any quotes whatsoever or I could have included quotes by both Yoda and Cait. Since Cait's post was written as a response to mine I felt that I should respond to it though and then I took it from there. It's not like I think Cait is the jerk of the board and she and everybody else should know that. My post wasn't directed at her personally.


Thank you.

I wouldn't say that I have noticed any condoning either. More like a passive attitude and an acceptance for things like these as something that we can't prevent. Another thing that gets to me is the view that the US army is collectively responsible for the good things it does, while the bad things are results of degenerated individuals.

And now, about two days later, I think I am of the same opinon as I was during the heat of that moment. I like Caitlyn a lot, and no less after this discussion, but I don't see the fact that she's my friend as a guarantee for always agreeing with her.

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The novelist does not long to see the lion eat grass. He realizes that one and the same God created the wolf and the lamb, then smiled, "seeing that his work was good".

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They had temporarily escaped the factories, the warehouses, the slaughterhouses, the car washes - they'd be back in captivity the next day but now they were out - they were wild with freedom. They weren't thinking about the slavery of poverty. Or the slavery of welfare and food stamps. The rest of us would be all right until the poor learned how to make atom bombs in their basements.

Not agreeing with her is one thing, accusing her of thinking that it's no big deal to torture and humiliate another human being is quite a different matter. I saw her pose as being one where nothing like this surprises her and that the USA is not any different than any other military has proved to be; actually this isn't as severe as some other military's around the world and at different times have proved to be.

Sorry if I'm not outraged like you. I've seen worse.


...but that still doesn't mean that I condone it...don't get me wrong, bro.

Then I misunderstood you as well. I apologize.

And also, what happened to my reputation?

I am outraged because I can't see how saying that "other militaries do it too and sometimes worse" can be anything else than leaving the issue of relevance here. And that's what my posts has been about from the start.

Look, I don't feel like arguing with you about things that don't matter really (who accused who of what).... This torture stuff really bothers me and I guess I am extra edgy because of that. Amnesty International is the only organisation I'm a member of and there is of course a simple reason for that: human rights is really important to me.

I won't post no more about it....

I have no desire to goad you into posting again, but I felt compelled to reply to this.

I think it's relevant because those expressing the most outrage over the mistreatment of Iraqi prisoners have almost universally been those who opposed intervening when Iraqis were facing far worse under Saddam. In other words, the timing of this sudden concern for their well-being appears (to one who supported the war such as myself) to be pretty convenient. Where was the outrage when Bush proposed an invasion that promised to stop a regime that was doing far worse?

I'm sorry, man. That's not what I was trying to do at all; I was just saying that such is the mechanisms of war. **** like this happens all the time during war, it's a fact of life. I'm not sure what you were expecting some of us to say. Do I like the fact that POW's are being humiliated and tortured to death? No. Do I think that these GI's who did this should be punished? Sure. Do I think that the people screaming about the inhumanity of it all should focus that same energy about other military's like N. Korea, Iran, and much of Africa as well as the US? Most definitely. Do I also think that somebody should scream about the American, British, Japanese, etc that were, and are, tortured by the Iraqi’s? You bet. I really don’t know what else to say…but please don’t stop posting your passionate feelings on the subject. I think very highly of you and wasn’t trying to pick on you at all.

Lets see if I got this right:

1. We all agree that torture in the forms that have been mentioned on this thread is wrong.

I agree no issue here.





2. It does not matter who tortures whom, there is no excuse for it.

There may be excuses, but not any good ones that I can see, or are there?



3. People sometimes use other related examples to put emphasis on a point.

Always has been done in a debate, so nothing wrong here.





4. The rest of the American Military is guilty by association.

This is a cop out statement. The "if there is one roach there is 50" theory is weak.



I have served in the military, and was in the first Gulf War. Let me tell you one of the things I saw, and what a lot of my fellow soldiers saw. It was after the war was over and we were securing areas of Kuwait. Our team was clearing out old warehouses in an industrial area. The air was thick with black smoke from all of the oil fires nearby and every now and then a gust of wind would blow by and clear our line of sight for a few seconds. I happened to be looking to my right at one point when the air cleared for a split moment. What I saw stays with me till today. In front of the doorway of a small building I saw a small body crumpled on the ground. I had seen plenty of bodies, but what shocked me was that when the air cleared again the body had moved a few feet. I figured out at that point either the person was not dead or someone moved them. I notified our Squad Leader and we proceeded to secure the surrounding areas. I wanted to rush and help the person I had seen, but safety was always first. By the time we returned to the front of the building the body was gone. We called out to anyone who may be inside, but there was no answer. Up to this point anyone we found that was part of the Iraqi military surrendered willingly and without incident, but we were not taking any chances. One of my friends volunteered to enter the building first. As we all drew closer we noticed a large amount of blood on the ground in front of and around the door. My friend that had volunteered to go in had this doubtful look on his face, but he just gave me the thumbs up and opened the door. Instead of going in he just stood there with this frozen look on his face. That’s when the odor hit us all; the smell of dead bodies was strong and it even overpowered the stench of the oil filled air. We were going to all go inside to see what was in there, but we could not get one foot in the door. The building was full of bodies from floor to ceiling. Most all were mutilated or shot in the head, at least the ones I remember. We had the daunting task of checking for survivors. As we pulled the bodies out I tried to distance myself from it all, but when I pulled on one arm and realized it was the body of a child about 5 or 6 years old I was brought back to reality. A little while later after we had removed somewhere in the neighborhood of 30 bodies I heard noises in coming from a ditch beside the building. We had checked here before but it was clear at that time. I have no idea how, but a young teenage boy had avoided our search and was hiding there now. I could tell it was the same person I had seen lying on the ground when we first came upon the site. I called over a medic and the boy was quickly attended to. We found out later as we were still bagging the bodies that this was where a local group of Kuwaiti citizens were executed and tortured by Iraqi’s. The boy we found suffered a gunshot to the head and had his ears cut off. I do not know if he survived. All I can say is that if the people responsible for what I had seen were in front of me then or now and if they had information that would prevent it from happening again I would do whatever I had to do to get it out of them. Then I would kill them because they have no right to be on this Earth.



What I am saying here I guess is that War does a lot to people, I have seen friends shoot themselves in the foot in order to go home; I have seen bravery and craziness and so many other emotions. Does war condone torture? No it does not, does saving the lives of innocent citizens by forcing those responsible to talk condone it? It is a tough call I guess, but I know what I would do. Condemn me or not, but until you see what I saw I think it is easy to judge. Is the situation with the six soldiers similar to what I am talking about? I have no idea, but then again most of us will never know the true complete story.

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“The gladdest moment in human life, methinks, is a departure into unknown lands.” – Sir Richard Burton

Thanks 7thson for an honest and moving account of, I am sure only one of many, horrific things you encountered in the war.

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Health is the greatest gift, contentment the greatest wealth, faithfulness the best relationship.
Buddha

Truely, war is never a good thing. We all lose in the end.

I assume this post was mainly targeted toward me so I feel a little compelled to answer… in the first place, you are dead wrong… again . I was not trying to justify or make excuses for the actions of the soldiers in question… nor from what I’ve read, was anyone else… so I really resent your accusation that we were...

And I find your statement “In other words they just want to argue” pretty laughable considering you made a post that you should have had sense enough to know would start an argument… When I first read your post, it irritated me more then it really should have, but beyond the obvious, I couldn’t quiet put my finger on what it was that bothered me so bad… and then I re-read it a little closer and it clicked…

Game’s up…. Spiderman…

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Right. Oh, wait, except for the American Revolution. And the American Civil War. And World War II.

War is, at times, a necessary evil. We do not "lose" if the loss we suffer from war allows us to avoid greater suffering through inaction.

I have to agree that war in itself is never good, but I will also say that the outcome of war can most definitely be wonderful. Freedom is one of the most taken for granted rights we have, and if the price for it is war then I would fight with all I have.

I came to see what Yoda had to say about this. Scanning this thread I'm shocked you guys aren't more pissed off about this.

This is not the first such U.S. incident it's the second that I know of and I think there is 1 or 2 similar British incidents as well. This is like the 4th time soldiers have raped Iraqis. What the hell?

I saw all those war movies where U.S. soldiers raped women and cracked heads and it made me understand the intense stress soldiers are in but come on, they've only been there 6 months. A year? What the? This is a freaking outrage.

Those soldiers need serious prison time. If they did that here in the U.S. to U.S. citizens they would get the max. Maybe even life in prison because of all the counts against them. I am surprised that Cait, who is a cop, doesn't see this as such a bad thing.

The most disturbing thing is that they will probably get off with a slap on the wrist and a Presidential pardon. I think the thing Bushlite was disgusted by wasn't the act itself but the gayness of it.

For those who think the pictures are fake. Are you on crack?

It is an outrage, stress of war or whatever there is no excuse for either side, war seems to bring out the worst in some people. if it had happened to someone in there home we all would be horrified.

I'm sure Cait can, and will, defend herself here, but I don't see her as thinking this sort of behavior is a good thing.

What might disturb me most about the whole event is that our President took so long to apologize to the Iraqi people. And another thing, Rumsfeld looks more bothered by the fact that he has to explain himself, than true remorse.

Let's face it guys after 9/11, people were frustrated. Perhaps there is a little bit in every one of us that sees these photos as comeupance, but after that thought, pathos kicks in and we, if we're sensitive enough, know that the treatment of the men and women in the photos is unethical, both morally and legally. It just doesn't seem like our American President sees the unethical part, and I only say that becuase he doesn't appear truly sorry based on his latent attempt at apology--that's just what I feel.

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I have been formatted to fit this screen.

r66-The member who always asks WHY?

I think it's very hard to make an apology for something which you yourself did not cause or even necessarily know about. I know that whenever I hear that someone I don't know has died, I generally say something to the effect of "I'm sorry to hear that," but I always feel awful, because I know it doesn't sound genuine. Or at least, not as genuine as it would if I were apologizing for something I had done.

I agree, by the way, that Rumsfeld does seem irritated when questioned. I think he should have more tolerance for such things; these sorts of inquiries and commissions are completely necessary.