War in the Middle East

The majority of "antisemitism" actually comes from both mainstream muslim AND christian arabs.

But once again you seem to be hung up primarily on religion as was clear in all of your other posts. I know what you arent saying,i know that you really just want to type out "the muslim religion its people and followers are the root of all the problems"....

However once again, this has nothing to do with muslim antisemitism and everything to do with the aggressive occupying of a land by a foriegn peoples (Israel). If it were egyptians rather than jews who took over in 1948 we would still be here today, the fact that israelis happen to be mostly jews has nothing to do with the fact that they are hated all around the world. ****, i know alot of muslims and jews both overseas and here who are best friends. But i can't find you an ISRAELI and a PALESTINIAN who are willing to talk to each other.

What I am trying to get you to understand is that your notion of muslim antisemitism is not only false but its exactly the kind of thing that deters peace in the middle east.

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Δύο άτομα. Μια μάχη. Κανένας συμβιβασμός.

Bingo.

There's a discussion to be had about whether or not Islam lends itself to violence more than the other major organized religions, but it's certainly not obvious or readily demonstrable. And even if it were, it wouldn't constitute a judgement of the religion, as any religion with any characteristics at all is inevitably going to lend itself to a certain kind of exploitation or misinterpretation, even if only relative to the others. You could say Islam is more attractive to aggressive people, perhaps, but you could also say that Christianity is more attractive to judgemental people. Neither is necessarily a condemnation of the religion as a whole.

I don't think anyone needed to, to an extent. Altho i'm sure some did.

I don't know what the cartoonist's intention was, but that might even have been his intent. (To oversimplify that is. As in associating the core of the Muslim faith with mindless violence)

*cough*

I don't think Eq went out and did that too be fair. So are you judging his faith on the acts of a minority now?

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My interpretation, initially, was that it meant Islam was being taken over by violent extremists (not true, in my opinion...at least not the "taken over" part). I never took it to mean that "Mohammed as a terrorist." Maybe some others did, and I can't fault them for that, but that was never how I saw it.


Exactly my point. It wouldn't be fair of me to pretend they speak for him, any more than it's fair of him to bring up some nameless, faceless hypocrites who might have a double-standard in regards to the two cartoons.

Oh damn, and now you've gone and said something genteel

Agreed - and thinking the topic is well worth a thread. (Coz like, we need some more explosive ones )

I don't reckon they are universally hated. Altho, as me and Adi were discussing earlier in this thread, i reckon it's likely that the majority side with the Palestinian underdog-ism, rather than the Israeli form.

Yea thats what i mean.

I dont think most of the world dislikes the Israelis because they are jews..if anything that helps them. I think most of the world hates them because they are ISRAELIS.
I'm continually trying to pull religion out of this because I honestly think it has little or nothing to do with whats going on right now.

I definitely agree a lot with the last bit.

I have no idea what the world thinks about Israel as a whole tho - but i doubt the majority actively hates them. I was just suggesting they don't necessarily 'side' with them.

I was talking about the Jews who lived in that region.

And you're right that to fight amongst one's brothers is human; but much of the deception here--propaganda that Equilibrium is naive enough to believe--is that the Israelis are supposedly responsible for things that are either wrought by the Palestinians against themselves or by other surrounding Arabs against the Palestinians. I love the continued use of "occupation" in particular when Europe both gave that land to the Jews AND the Palestinians were pretty much unwelcome in every other nation in the region.

1. Don't quit your day job; you make a crappy mind-reader.

2. I used the word "extremist," no? I try not to generalize about any one group of people; there are many Muslims and Arabs (not all Arabs are Muslim and vice-versa) that do not think that way.

3. If you want to see Israelis and Palestinians living in peace, go to Detroit.

4. You've apparently never read ANY part of the Quir'an, so let me give you a link that shows EXACTLY where the antisemitic and anti-Christian portions are:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...koranjews.html

Wow, funny how all that lovely material is written in the holy text, huh?

Of course, the Bible preaches some undeniable hatred as well. It's all a matter of what the individual chooses to do with the text in question. What many Muslim extremists have chosen to do with this, however, is believe it word-for-word.

I love how that link is from a jewish library from a site called "jewkoran" and from a site filled with other propaganda...

i've read the quran several times in arabic in english...the words on that site are FABRICATED.

Thanks for making my point about Israeli propaganda.

It is? Because I ran some of the quotes in bold on that site through the search engine in this online translation of The Koran (which doesn't have the word "jew" in the URL, by the way) and they showed up just as the Jewish Virtual Library said.

em...just so you now,i'm not stoned right now...i've read some of it at the begining and doesn't it say ( repeatedly ) that jews and christians will go to heaven because they believe in one god? perhapse it takes a radical turn later on ( i couldn't keep reading , the translation made little sense )....

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I'm not very well read into any of the three big religions, but... Isn't Judaism saying that the jews are the chosen people? Meaning that they somehow see themselves as superior to other people? What implications might that have on the conflict between jews and muslims compared to the "evil within Islam" argument proposed here by some? And hasn't there historically been an element of missionary in Christianity which equally has made the christians view themselves as masters with a responsibility to save the infidels? The implications of that particular view is hard to ignore while taking a quick look at a map of the World or listen to where languages like English, Spanish and French are being spoken today.

it's very easy to fall into the unlucky and unproductive discussion about which religion is the most evil. Furthermore, it's completely wrong to blame people's religious beliefs for the violence and the hate in the Middle East. Religion is being used as an excuse for violence, yes, but it's not the reason for it. And that goes for Judaism, Christianity and Islam as well, historically and presently.

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The novelist does not long to see the lion eat grass. He realizes that one and the same God created the wolf and the lamb, then smiled, "seeing that his work was good".

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They had temporarily escaped the factories, the warehouses, the slaughterhouses, the car washes - they'd be back in captivity the next day but now they were out - they were wild with freedom. They weren't thinking about the slavery of poverty. Or the slavery of welfare and food stamps. The rest of us would be all right until the poor learned how to make atom bombs in their basements.

That site is ridiculous. They claim that jews and christians are the only true paths to god...but later on they contradict themselves by saying that the people of Israel are the chosen people. Well damn, im not jewish, according to the jewish religion im **** out of luck.

Everything else quoted from there from the quran is either skewed in translation, or taken completely out of context.

I have no idea what this site is about.

I'm holding an official english copy of the koran right now in my hand...and the opening from the online version is MUCH different than the opening in the acual text.

Before you say there are differences in translation that are normal andf expect.. let me tell you this it is ILLEGAL to have more than one version of the quran...even if the versions differ by a single letter. This is to ensure that the koran will look 100% the same since it was bestowed 1500 years ago.

I'm forced to conclude, as is often the case with online versions of the koran, that this is not an accurate translation nor is it an official translation of the koran.

What do you mean "about"? It's a translation of the Koran posted by the University of Michigan.

Can you elaborate? You keep saying it's wrong, but I'd like to see what yours says, if that's the case. For example, what does it say instead of the following quotes?

Are these inaccurate? If so, what do they actually say? I'm not trying to assign homework, but we're not going to sort out this disagreement if people provide quotes from numerous translations and you simply declare them incorrect without elaborating.

Forgive my ignorance, but what constitutes an "official" translation of the Koran? Who decides it is official, and how can we identify whether or not a given translation is among the official translations?

I put it away, but as far as identifying official and correct copies of the koran..

Its kind of a long story involving the 3rd Caliph of the arabic empire in 500 AD, but basically he combined all the teachings of the prophet into ONE text and he sealed it with his name..any koran that was made after that was reviewd by scholars to make sure they all looked exactly the same...if they were good they were sealed with the caliph's name..when the printing press was invented his seal was used to identify official copies...today...no publisher will print the koran unless it has this very same seal on it verifying that it is letter for letter, word for word, and accent for accent, exactly like all the other korans...so in short:

...if it is IN PRINT...(as in you can hold it in your hand and read it) then it is official. anything else whether its A QUOTE from the quran in a book, or an online version of the quran is subject to severe abuse. I have never trusted an online version of the koran, or bible for that matter. proponents of either religion will often skew the words and take them out of context to create the image they want you to see.

my suggestion is go to a library and get an english copy of the koran....

Ah, ok.

In that case, i'm more intrigued by the next point...

What kind of thing are you thinking of here - in terms of them "spend[ing] their entire existence killing off themselves", as you put it? Especially with regards to the Palestinians.

Well, given that Israel has made various 'landgrabs', both 'provoked' and 'unprovoked', since the initial settlements, you can see how the occupier tag persists.

I've never fully bought that land taken under war-duress actually has pristine legal or moral status either. IE That it doesn't count as an occupation. But that's by-the-by. (Facts on the ground, and all that).

I'm far from fully versed on the Palestinians original status, but my understanding is that some were moved on by the Brits during the groundwork for Israel's establishment. (It seems that there should be some ironic kinship there - what with the original 'nomadic' Jews having been forced out of Israel themselves).

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Whatever the case, Eq is being over-the-top in his defence of anti-Israeli action. But you don't seem to be quite the picture of 'equilibrium' that you painted earlier either

Is there no standard for English-translations then? (I'd imagine arguments and divergence must have arisen in that area - just as with the Bible. Translation brings a whole heap of quandries when it comes to recreating the Word of God).

What do you read yourself? An English or Arabic version? It would be helpful if you could give us the printed English-translations of some of the quotes cited above.

Not that it would change much ultimately. As has been said before - all religious texts seem to contain tracts that are pretty hateful/destructive/'insular'. That aspect ain't exclusive . (And lord knows i could drag up some fairly hateful quotes from the Bible. The point would be that they're no-longer enacted. Which i reckon, in terms of stonings etc, is probably for the best).

There IS a standard on translation. Like I said, it has to have the seal of the third caliph before any publisher will print it. But on the internet Joe Shmoe from redneckville can make his own translation and put it on a website and people would think it was real. DONT TRUST ANYTHING YOU SEE ON THE WEB, ESPECIALLY IF IT INVOLVES QUOTES FROM THE KORAN TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT. I've noticed through the years that people will take things out of context. I kid you not a few years ago i stumbled upon a site that through misqouting, and sentences taken out of context..made the arguement that in the muslim religion jesus is the devil. Anyone remotely intelligent would know that jesus is regarded as one of the most beloved prophets. But it never ceases to amaze me what you can find out there.

I usually read both versions...the arabic is more poetic and deeper in meaning that the english translation would suggest. however, when i can't understand it in arabic i read it in english...afterall english is my first language.

As far as citing word for word what is in the real english koran, i will do so but not todya. I'm going out soon, so tomorrow ill reference all the quotes in question so you can see the vast difference in translation fro yourself.