bowling for columbine...confliction anyone???

Tools    





Originally Posted by Karl Childers
Michael Moore capitalized off from the Columbine opportun-- err, I mean tragedy, like NO ONE ELSE.


Not bad for a self-proclaimed Socialist.

I think capitalizing is taking it a little far. Besides that fact, just about every politician uses tragic events to further their own cause. Look at how much 9/11 has increased the hell out of the size of the government and started in with the Patriot Act and possibly soon to come Patriot Act 2. I wouldn't excuse what he did, but I honestly believe Moore has his heart in the right place. I'd call him short-sighted before I'd call him evil.
__________________
You're not hopeless...



Originally Posted by Henry The Kid
I think capitalizing is taking it a little far. Besides that fact, just about every politician uses tragic events to further their own cause.
And, of course, tragedies are the heart and soul of the news media, which was a point Moore made in the film. "If it bleeds, it leads"--that saying exists for a reason.

And what Bowling for Columbine was about wasn't the actual event, necessarily. It wasn't about showing every excruciating detail of the security camera footage. It was more about what "caused" it and how people percieved it and reacted to it, among other things. Hence the title: if we're going to blame just about everyone and everything, including Marilyn Manson and video games, for what these boys've done, then you might as well blame bowling, since that's what they did on the morning of the massacre.

Kind of a dissection of modern American society using the Columbine incident and others like it as your magnifying glass. I don't think Michael Moore "capitalized" off of Columbine any more than a grad student capitalizes off of Shakespeare when they apply the themes of King Lear to modern life and then get that paper published. If it pays off, great--but that's not necessarily why you do the work in the first place.

Moore certainly made a helluva lot more money from his, though. That poor grad student just gets another line on the ol' C.V.

I wouldn't excuse what he did, but I honestly believe Moore has his heart in the right place. I'd call him short-sighted before I'd call him evil.
I wouldn't call him short-sighted so much as I'd call him a showman. Yes, he has a cause--and it's a worthy and good one--but he knows his business, not to mention how people work. He knows how to get attention and keep it, and he knows how to manipulate. That's why he's famous, while so many other documentarians have to sell a kidney to make their films.

Using facts out of context is a problem, but I think it's one that many documentaries have. Any time you're gathering information about a subject, you have to decide how you're going to use it. Moore used those facts to suit his agenda, which is a mighty temptation for those who have information when presenting it to those who have none/little. This is not me trying to excuse him for it--I think he should have been more confident that the facts as they stood would be powerful enough--but the effect of the documentary is the most crucial element of it, in this case.

And one final note about the misuse of facts: as Henry said, politicians do it all the time--not to mention governments.



I am having a nervous breakdance
I would just like to agree with the previous speaker!
__________________
The novelist does not long to see the lion eat grass. He realizes that one and the same God created the wolf and the lamb, then smiled, "seeing that his work was good".

--------

They had temporarily escaped the factories, the warehouses, the slaughterhouses, the car washes - they'd be back in captivity the next day but
now they were out - they were wild with freedom. They weren't thinking about the slavery of poverty. Or the slavery of welfare and food stamps. The rest of us would be all right until the poor learned how to make atom bombs in their basements.



Originally Posted by Piddzilla
I would just like to agree with the previous speaker!
Thanks, Piddz!
__________________
You were a demon and a lawyer? Wow. Insert joke here."



Originally Posted by Mary Loquacious
Thanks, Piddz!
"Reality is just a crutch for people who can't cope with drugs."



-Greatest. Quote. Ever.



there's a frog in my snake oil
Originally Posted by Piddzilla
I would just like to agree with the previous speaker!
Yup (defended Moore better'n me anyway )
__________________
Virtual Reality chatter on a movie site? Got endless amounts of it here. Reviews over here



Name of Film: Bowling for Columbine

Reference to: The Columbine tragedy a few years ago where teenage gunmen shot and killed several students and faculty, and terrorized an entire school before taking their own lives with said weapons.

Premise of film: An attempt to analyze the gun/violence phenomenon/epidemic in the USA using the Columbine incident as a central theme and archetypal case study.

Box office gross of Bowling for Columbine : $21,244,913


Definition of capitalize: v.
1. convert into capital, as of a company's reserve funds
2. draw advantages from; "he is capitalizing on her mistake";



I rest my case.
__________________
"Taking my gun away because I might shoot someone is like cutting my tongue out because I might yell `Fire!' in a crowded theater." --Peter Venetoklis



The Mad Prophet of the Movie Forums
Cool then. Now that that is settled.....

My Case:

Always Look on the Bright Side of Life

Cheer up, Brian. You know what they say.
Some things in life are bad,
They can really make you mad.
Other things just make you swear and curse.
When you're chewing on life's gristle,
Don't grumble, give a whistle!
And this'll help things turn out for the best...
And...
the music fades into the song

...always look on the bright side of life!
whistle

Always look on the bright side of life...
If life seems jolly rotten,
There's something you've forgotten!
And that's to laugh and smile and dance and sing,

When you're feeling in the dumps,
Don't be silly chumps,
Just purse your lips and whistle -- that's the thing!
And... always look on the bright side of life...

whistle
Come on!

other start to join in
Always look on the bright side of life...
whistle

For life is quite absurd,
And death's the final word.
You must always face the curtain with a bow!
Forget about your sin -- give the audience a grin,
Enjoy it -- it's the last chance anyhow!

So always look on the bright side of death!
Just before you draw your terminal breath.
Life's a piece of sh*t,
When you look at it.

Life's a laugh and death's a joke, it's true,
You'll see it's all a show,
Keep 'em laughing as you go.
Just remember that the last laugh is on you!

And always look on the bright side of life...
whistle
Always look on the bright side of life
whistle


+


__________________
"I'm mad as hell, and I'm not going to take it anymore!" - Howard Beale



Originally Posted by Karl Childers
Name of Film: Bowling for Columbine

Reference to: The Columbine tragedy a few years ago where teenage gunmen shot and killed several students and faculty, and terrorized an entire school before taking their own lives with said weapons.

Premise of film: An attempt to analyze the gun/violence phenomenon/epidemic in the USA using the Columbine incident as a central theme and archetypal case study.
Yes...

Box office gross of Bowling for Columbine : $21,244,913


Definition of capitalize: v.
1. convert into capital, as of a company's reserve funds
2. draw advantages from; "he is capitalizing on her mistake";
You may have the denotations of the word down, but I interpreted the way you used the word to have a negative connotation--as in "to exploit." My following answer is based on that.

So where is the line between "call attention to/analyze" and "exploit"? Is that line determined purely by materialistic gain or malicious intent? Is it only because he made so much money from the film? Would it have been non-exploitative if only three people had gone to see it?

Sorry for the rhetorical questions, but it's a helluva lot stickier than your statement makes it sound. Michael Moore makes films for a living, not as a hobby--the fact that he makes money from them should be a given, not an issue.

Did he gain? Yes--and as well he should, since it's both his job and his film. Is it exploitative for a Holocaust survivor like Elie Wiesel to write about the Jewish experience, and his own, during WWII and after? Or how about Anne Frank's father (sorry to use another WWII analogy, but they came to mind first) publishing her diary after his daughter died? Both men made money from these books.

See, when I think of exploitation, I think of things like reality TV and the Faces of Death saga: entertainment with absolutely no purpose beyond using their subjects as pet monkeys to be paraded around and gawked at--to be pitied, ridiculed or panted after. Or all three, if you're watching Am I Hot?

I don't think Moore did that in Bowling for Columbine, for all the times I had a chuckle at some of the people in the documentary. Rather, I think he had a very clear, well-intentioned, and sound purpose in making this film about this particular event.

(Uh-oh. We're back to motivation again, and I thought I'd left all that behind me in another thread. )



You may have the denotations of the word down, but I interpreted the way you used the word to have a negative connotation--as in "to exploit." My following answer is based on that. Sorry for the rhetorical questions, but it's a helluva lot stickier than your statement makes it sound. Michael Moore makes films for a living, not as a hobby--the fact that he makes money from them should be a given, not an issue.
Mary Loquacious raises some excellent points. I appreciate that greatly.

You were correct when you sensed I was suggesting an exploitive purpose on Moore's part. I believe he did indeed exploit a horrible national tragedy by highlighting the incident and using it as the impetus for his film. He used the events because they were so horrific, knowing such details and a recalling of the event would stick in people's minds.

Directly speaking, the Columbine incident is this generation's Kent State: A tragic event which shakes up a nation and serves to epitomize a symbolic fear or evil which currently seizes it.

With Kent State, it was the fear of military, governmental power run amok amidst the evil of the Vietnam War. With Columbine, it was teenage nihilism which all too frequently manifested itself in mass murder, serving to highlight the terrible legacy of violence we have in our culture.

I don't believe Moore made an attempt to portray Columbine and everything surrounding it in an honest light which would have examined the culture of violence objectively. If he had chosen to do so, he would have interviewed the father of one of the student-victims who made a plea warning Americans that violence was the not the result of the gun, or gun owners, or gun makers. It was about responsibility and disarming the heart. Moore wanted no part of that.

He could have also neglected to not alter his video and narration to deceive viewers in regards to the Lockheed Martin plant, the bank gun promotion, and the Heston interview.

He lied because the facts on their own would not have served his anti-gun agenda. In doing so, he exploited the Columbine tragedy by not addressing the entire issue, and subjectively pursuing his own issue.



Originally Posted by Karl Childers
I believe he did indeed exploit a horrible national tragedy by highlighting the incident and using it as the impetus for his film. He used the events because they were so horrific, knowing such details and a recalling of the event would stick in people's minds.

Directly speaking, the Columbine incident is this generation's Kent State: A tragic event which shakes up a nation and serves to epitomize a symbolic fear or evil which currently seizes it.
I agree, but at the same time it's that tragic nature that makes it such a relevant event in our history--and an event that creates such a shockwave as did Columbine, Kent State, or 9/11 is the very sort of event that begs analysis. If we let them pass without the sort of commentary that Moore makes in Bowling for Columbine, then we'll forget the most important things about them: the fact that people died senselessly, the fact that something in our culture--not simply the perpetrators--is to be partially blamed for these tragedies, and the fact that we as a society will continue experiencing the effects of these events for the foreseeable future.

And these are the kinds of things that you don't understand simply by watching the news reports or the footage.

I don't believe Moore made an attempt to portray Columbine and everything surrounding it in an honest light which would have examined the culture of violence objectively. If he had chosen to do so, he would have interviewed the father of one of the student-victims who made a plea warning Americans that violence was the not the result of the gun, or gun owners, or gun makers. It was about responsibility and disarming the heart. Moore wanted no part of that.

He could have also neglected to not alter his video and narration to deceive viewers in regards to the Lockheed Martin plant, the bank gun promotion, and the Heston interview.

He lied because the facts on their own would not have served his anti-gun agenda. In doing so, he exploited the Columbine tragedy by not addressing the entire issue, and subjectively pursuing his own issue.
Again, I agree that it was not an objective film or analysis. However, having a personal biases on the issue at hand does not constitute exploitation. We're seeing Moore's opinions on the screen, and while he claims to have the right answer, there is no "right" answer. He knows (or he should) that stricter gun laws would not bring an end to violence, even gun-related violence--but he does believe that a lassez faire attitude towards guns is one of the reasons that Columbine happened. He also believes that fear is another major factor, and so much of the film centers on those two issues and how they dovetail. Part of it, too, is his analysis of the symbolic nature of guns and the right to bear arms--and what effect this symbolism has had on American culture.

It would be impossible to boil all this down to a two-hour film and adequately and objectively cover everything, and Moore knew it.

And, yes, he is biased, but his stance on these issues is his thesis for the film. I'll go back to my grad student analogy: you have to go into a analysis with a basic thesis. You then use the facts (or the text) to back up that thesis. And a certain amount of fudging--again, I'm not condoning it --often works its way in. Now, a good thesis is open-ended enough to allow you to use those elements that don't hold up your thesis. And a good writer/thinker is smart enough to be able to counter those elements with other arguments.

I believe Columbine itself spurred Michael Moore to make a film that looked at the basic fear that drives American culture: the fear of each other, of ourselves--and if the sniper shootings had not happened later, they too would have become a large part of the film, I'm certain. I also believe Moore used Columbine because it was so relevant to that problem, not because it was a handy base for his anti-gun platform.

I do understand your indignation, Karl--and I feel it somewhat, too, in the sense of the spin Moore puts on his information--but I don't agree with its basis. And, overall, I think Bowling for Columbine is an important film that more people need to see.



Originally Posted by Mary Loquacious
is to be partially blamed
Very, very partially.


I am for certain forms of gun control. I'm not crazy enough to think unchecked and unregulated guns is a good idea. However, banning guns completely is simply ridiculous when they are so necesary to protect ourselves.


Also, as I said earlier, the film was a complete success in my opinion. I'm so pleased that it did so well at the box office as well as rentals, as it is very helpful in reassessing/enforcing ideas that you had before watching it. As someone who is neither liberal nor conservative, I would call the movie a fine liberal political tool that has not been matched by conservative efforts.