I'm Becoming a Fabulous Atheist

Be careful; that's one addicting religion. I've been in AA (Anteaters Anonymous) for two years now, and it's a mighty tough battle.

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"The dog is the god of frolic." ~ Beecher

"Exit, pursued by a bear." ~

At this juncture I feel it only pertinent to clarify for the great unwashed what a sky fairy looks like; according to Google images anyway

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100 Favourites From The Future: REWIRED

Why look at that! It's Buddha!

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The Freedom Roads

Yeah... I was kinda enjoying it and handed out some positive rep even though I didn't totally agree with everything being posted... but now it's just gotten .... I think I'll just go hug my tree...

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Don't do that! Then someone will accuse you of being a Druid and that will be one more set of beliefs to defend or scoff at while knowing little or nothing about it.

My two bits that is if you try to narrow anything down (to "the good") or put all of your faith in one thing (its cool if you want to do it), but it seems silly. Simply put: we don't have enough science to explain everything and blind faith is (IMO) an easy way to ride the road of ignorance. I'm too agnostic which I define to believe in a higher power but not specifically. For me(as hippy as this sounds), so far, as I can tell is the universe. As people, we connect to each other and the earth we all are "one" in a sense. For the longest time I tried to figure out the purpose in why we live, like most people do at one point or another. I think its different for everyone. In my life its to see beauty. I swear that the first day I don't see some sort of beauty in the world is the day I commite suicide. The other part is to make memories and experience as much life as possible (not in a retarded way) and do this with people we care about. Thats what I believe.

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But I, being poor, have only my dreams; I have spread my dreams under your feet, Tread softly because you tread on my dreams. W.B. Yeats

Well, I know for a fact that Druids have really nifty robes.

I am glad to see that sensible people who can have a cool and reasoned discussion have finally gotten a hold of this thread.



Muwahahahaha!

Indeed. Calmer folks shall always prevail.

Don't let the compliment turn your head.

I know they say it'll make you blind, but I didn't know it could do that to you as well.

Methinks you're thinking of something else!

Everyone who is not discouraged by all your insults, damn`s, ****`s and your general childish behaviour, can see that you hold some good arguments in your favour. I (absolutely) agree with what you say above. But I would also recommend you to come down a bit. Except, of course, you are only a flamer. Are you?

PS: Adolf actually tried to establish a Religion. It was based around some Sun-Cult combined with Viking-stuff, the average Nazi-Bull****. It didn`t work out (in time), like the intercontinental-missile and the war in russia and so on.

Okay, I try to reword this...


Money makes the world go round, not religion. At least today. But that doesn`t means, that the big religions have lost it all. And unlike other groups or lobbies, who are struggling for money, influence and power on this earth, they are claiming to be in touch with some "higher command". That means: Their leaders are actually thinking, that they are in possession of the ultimate truth. That`s potentially dangerous, isn`t it? Ordinary civils and young followers - they usually don`t think about stuff like that, just enjoying the social warmness. Churches, mosques and temples all around the world are helping millions and millions of poor and weak humans on a daily base. Great. But otherhand: Right now, in this moment, people in Africa dying a horrible death, because of Karol Wojtoyla and Joseph Ratzinger. Millions have already died, because of these two bastards. And many more will die, until Ratzi took his last deep breath. I don`t believe in hell, but if it really exists, I hope this two will burn forever. I don`t even start to talk about the crusades, constant child abuse, Palestine, the Taliban, woman and gay rights in Islamic countries. and so on, and so on... you already got the picture. What seperat religious folk from the rest? They are on a mission. You can discuss with them for hours and days, and it`s highly theoretical, maybe even fascinating. But in the real world ... human beings in the past/present/future die for NOTHING, for invisible gods and strange beliefs. Yes, if there would be no religion, it surely wouldn`t be like in this John Lennon-Song "Imagine". The ******** would find oher reasons for their cruel acts. But that dosn`t means, religion is the best way. Look, I live in Germany and I do not like this country. But it`s great, that our society is almost absolut secular. No intelligent design, no radical christs who makes the president, acting aggressively and hold zero tolerance for other believes. At all, religion is manmade, some people use it in good way, others try to take advantage of it. But why we still have to mask our big questions, like the cavemen hundred-thousand years ago? Writings on the wall, mysterious symbols, old prophecies? What`s that? We would be better without organized religion, that`s my point.

I would agree that organized religion does have massive negative effects on people. I'm not saying that it's all bad starting from the heart, but once you give someone rules to live their lives by and they want to do something that breaks that law, they will find a way to justify it (just think Puritans). Also, because this is a movie forum, another great (although fictional) example would be Children of the Corn. There's one specific part where they are in the church and he holds up the Bible and basically says they are re-writing it and twisting it to fix to suit whatever their desire is. I think there's some truth in that.

wow. had to sift through some real drivel to get there, but I thought this was a really interesting thought, KK. i dont agree with it of course, but for some reason that i may realize later, i like its trajectory. i just thought that bore saying.

in recent weeks, though, i was thinking about this EXACT dusty, age-old conundrum:

and I agree with this:

but this is a great point.

it occurred to me while reading this that every discussion i've seen or had on this aspect of God's existence is often approached as though this question has a universal religious answer, like so: if God existed, he wouldnt have let that happen; it happened, thus, he does not exist. the failure here, then, is to acknowledge and take into account the myriad religious views on God and his existence. for example, i frankly have no idea how a Muslim believes about God's willingness to allow bad things to happen, nor how they justify it. i do imagine their view is somewhat different than the christian view, and no doubt the Hindus, Buddhists, Jehovah's Witnesses, Catholics, Mormons, Jews, etc., all have some variation to their justification.

my point? you have to know your audience (or interviewee, shall we say), because their individual religious beliefs, or lack thereof, will inform their answer. . . greatly.

that said, here's why i like KK's musings: what if God really were trifling and capricious?

PERSON to GOD: You suck. Where were you during the bad times??
GOD to PERSON: No. YOU Suck. Where were you the REST of the time?

but lets close on lighter note. how about THIS STORY for this thread, huh?

Top Athletics prospect retires to enter priesthood

Why do people always say, If God exists, he wouldn't have let that happen. He wouldn't have let thousands of people die in the earthquake in Haiti; he wouldn't have let that mother and her five children get murdered; he wouldn't have brought AIDS upon us or cancer; he wouldn't have blown up the space shuttle or crashed the airplane; he wouldn't have made that child be born with missing arms; he wouldn't have killed my daughter when she was only 23, blah blah blah. THUS, God does not exist!

Terrible things are just what life is all about -- maybe He designed it that way.

Maybe we'd be bored without them!

Sometimes I like death and disease -- gives me something to look forward to when I think about all of the nasty people I've met in my life. Yes, that man cheated on me, but I gotta look on the bright side -- prostate cancer runs in his family.

So, Thank God that God gets rid of people somehow.

I mean, how else are we supposed to get to Heaven? Do you wish death only came in pill form? Or not at all?

Maybe we're reincarnated. Who knows? Lifetimes would be like movies. In spirit form, we might all be making out our Top 100 Lives We've Lived lists. Maybe even a list to check off things we experienced in life. Imagine the possibilities.

Check off the following if you experienced them while living on Earth:

* Been a human
* Been a deer
* Been a cow
* Been a lion
* Was a woman, had breast cancer
* Was a woman, had uterine cancer
* Was a woman, became a man

I mean, the possibilities are endless, and who knows? If reincarnation is real, we might all be doing this someday, or maybe after we finish this life. Maybe we get a free Starbucks coffee after we've lived so many lives -- or maybe we get an easy free life as the son of a Starbucks millionaire. Who knows?

My point is -- if there is a God, why would he make life so boring and not let us experience anything?

I´m not sure I understand that. Your life is just as boring or as interesting as you want it to be. If you are really bored, travel around the world with no money - adventure is guaranted. Or join the circus. Take drugs, have sex with strangers, do dangerous and thrilling things. Move on. Whatever.
What is so cool about body-switching and reincarnation?

I was asking that question hypothetically. The reincarnation part was something else.

I was saying that life would be boring without danger. Without death, without disease, without chaos, without pain, without fear.

You said yourself that if you don't want to be bored, you should go do dangerous things, thrilling things, take drugs, have sex with strangers, etc. But people do those dangerous things and then something horrible happens -- they have sex with a stranger and get an STD, maybe AIDS; they take too many drugs and have an overdose and die; they attempt to climb Mount Everest but they never make it, they die up there.

And when these things happen, people say, how could God do that? How could he allow that to happen? There must not be a God!

Imagine life without the danger -- imagine we all lived in a world where there was a God, but he didn't invent death. Nobody died, nobody got sick, nobody got hurt... there would be no such thing as a dangerous thing. "Scary things" would not exist. If nobody died or got sick or got hurt from anything, there's nothing to fear.

Thus, it would probably all be boring.

If there is a God, he created life so it wouldn't be boring -- we have things to fear. Thus, we have things to enjoy and have fun with.

There are consequences to this -- death, disease, pain. If it happens, it's ridiculous to say, God shouldn't have allowed that! I guess there's no God then!

People get so, so angry at God about these things.

God isn't the problem. Life is the problem. Life has its positives and negatives. You know the positives through the negatives.

God built the amusement park -- and the rides are meant to kill. Laugh and play while you can, but everyone leaves on a stretcher.

Don't like it? Doesn't matter. You can't do anything about it. That's just God's exit strategy, so laugh and play, laugh and play.

morbid, Sexy. morbid, but funny! i do think that with most things its true you know the positives through the negatives. removal of all things negative simply just doesnt work. havent some tried? in broad terms, that was the general thrust behind communism, and many agree that communism is a failed experiment.

and since this is a movie forum, i find it interesting that there are a vast number of movies throughout the various eras, depicting the failure and disastrous outcomes of an initially altruistic societal attempt to remove choice and its consequences.

it seems to me that even on a broad social scale, regardless of beliefs, no one ever truly advocates the removal of choice. such an argument is at worst hypocritical, and at best self-serving, because in truth, im not advocating for the removal of MY choice - but yours. no. the real argument is for the removal of consequences that result from the choice. i dont advocate the removal of choice, but neither do i advocate the removal of consequences. each person everywhere at present has the ability to self-govern their choices (or simply put, self-determination), and in this way, can choose their own outcome. one can DO whatever one wants to do - even to the extent of breaking the law or harming others. the question is: if your social environment does not change, are you willing to live with the outcome? even i know that attempting to change my environment to make my decisions more enjoyable (= with fewer negative consequences) for me is an attempt to impose my will on others. life would be so much easier if everyone simply agreed with me!

do whatever you want. your decision, you free agent you. at cost.
[this point could easily be discussed in terms of high school social dynamics and peer pressure]

the law of cause and effect exceeds mere religious belief, and is broadly understood and applied scientifically and religiously. Stanford has this great philosophy page out there discussing even further causal determinism versus chance (or in general terms - chaos theory). very interesting stuff - obviously only a starting place if one is interested in the subject.

so why do bad things happen if there is a God? would could say cause and effect, but i'd venture to say that the idea of intangible "faith" in the illogical and/or unprovable makes any believer of any religion in broad terms a believer in chaos theory as well. and im very comfortable with that.

my point? one cannot banally suggest that causality - or chaos/chance - cease to exist, simply because "bad things shouldnt happen!" that's just a cheap argument.