Do you feel that Heaven's Gate deserves a critical reassessment?

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Does Heaven's Gate deserve a critical reassessment?
70.00%
7 votes
Yes
30.00%
3 votes
No
10 votes. You may not vote on this poll




Yes, but the ratio of positive to negative reviews is also considerably higher for those in the 2010s and 2020s vs. those in the 2000's. The Wikipedia article I linked also discusses more of those reviews in detail.

The film also did quite well on the 2022 Sight & Sound poll and the 2023 TSPDT list.

Just wondering where you're finding the standings in the BFI poll for movies outside of the top 250/100?


I remember after the 2012 poll individual movies had their placement on their pages regardless if they would have placed outside of the top 250/100.



Just wondering where you're finding the standings in the BFI poll for movies outside of the top 250/100?


I remember after the 2012 poll individual movies had their placement on their pages regardless if they would have placed outside of the top 250/100.
https://letterboxd.com/russman/list/...ight-sounds-9/

It shows a breakdown of how many points the films received. Heaven's Gate received 12 votes and is listed at #329.
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Alright, you guys convinced me. I'm giving the movie a new look.

About one hour into it, and so far it really isn't as bad as all that.



The second hour feels veeeeeeeeeeery leisurely paced compared to the first one. It's not boring, but it feels like the movie really loses momentum here.

The second hour feels like those episodes in a TV series where they're just killing some time before getting to the good stuff.



I don't think so. It's been a long time since I saw it, but, as I recall, between its length and pace, I recall my reaction being "not as bad as I heard that it was", or something like that. I, for one, would not want to re-assess unless someone compensated me for those 3 1/2 hours. As I recall, it reminded me of just long it took to get anywhere in the time period in the movie.

Back then, I was impressed with myself for making it through the run-time, now, I don't know why I'd want to.



Sam Waterson does make a pretty compelling Big Bad. The movie could have benefited from him being in more scenes early on.



The second hour feels veeeeeeeeeeery leisurely paced compared to the first one. It's not boring, but it feels like the movie really loses momentum here.

The second hour feels like those episodes in a TV series where they're just killing some time before getting to the good stuff.
While I like the film, I do agree with this criticism. I brought it up in my review as well.



Since this was brought up earlier, as well, it's worth pointing out that the look of the movie in the versions that are currently available is not the same "look" that it had when it first opened in cinemas:

The restoration looks good projected, if surprisingly bright for a film that, in his review, Roger Ebert complained was “so brownish yellow that you want to try Windex on the screen.” In a 1981 Millimeter article about the making of the film its cinematographer, Vilmos Zsigmond, wrote that Mr. Cimino wanted to “re-create in the audience the experience of being in the West back in those days — when things were noisy and smoky and very, very dusty and dirty.”

As a restoration demo on the Criterion Blu-ray demonstrates, some of the scenes that looked sepia, almost nicotine brown, have been altered so that the green grass and blue sky pop almost as brightly as they would in Technicolor. This may be a restoration, but it also appears to be an act of directorial revisionism.

https://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/17/m...lm-forum.html/
So, in a very real sense, due to the "revisionism" of the 2012 restoration, people watching the more recent version of the movie are reacting to something that looks quite different from the way it looked when it first played in theaters.

In this context, Ebert's comment that it made you "want to try Windex on the screen" makes all the more sense. The version he (and other critics at the time) watched was a much darker-looking one than the one available today through Criterion and other home video alternatives.

If people's more recent opinions of the film are different, it's because in a real sense it is a different film, with a brighter image than the original theatrical version.



Why would any film not deserve a critical reassessment?


The last thing we want is for attitudes towards a film to remain stagnant.


So while it's important to remember how movies were maybe once rejected or accepted by the critics or the unwashed masses, it's just as important that present and future audiences get to shape how these films are viewed as well.


After all, the verdict of whether or not a film is any good, is secondary to the process of how we got to that verdict. Or, in simpler terms, a movie being considered bad or good doesn't have nearly as much meaning as why a film is considered bad or good. And those standards are always going to change, as different criteria gets prioritized over time.



Why would any film not deserve a critical reassessment?

The last thing we want is for attitudes towards a film to remain stagnant.

So while it's important to remember how movies were maybe once rejected or accepted by the critics or the unwashed masses, it's just as important that present and future audiences get to shape how these films are viewed as well.

After all, the verdict of whether or not a film is any good, is secondary to the process of how we got to that verdict. Or, in simpler terms, a movie being considered bad or good doesn't have nearly as much meaning as why a film is considered bad or good. And those standards are always going to change, as different criteria gets prioritized over time.
I don't think anyone here was calling for "attitudes towards a film to remain stagnant," although being perfectly honest, that does tend to happen, perhaps more often than we would like.

In regards to Heaven's Gate, specifically, I do not in all honesty feel that it truly deserves a critical reassessment, while at the same time I am nonetheless glad to see people trying to keep an open mind about it.

Look, the version of Heaven's Gate that's available today has been considerably altered from the original version; it's one thing to make major changes to popcorn movies like Star Wars or Aliens, but I feel it's a bit of a different situation with a movie that was at least putatively a "serious" film.

(And before you go off on another tangent, yes, it would be preferable if the original version of all movies always remained available in a legal way).

The people looking at Cimino's film today are literally looking at something different than what was released in 1980.

And, more importantly, I feel critical standards have deteriorated since the late 70s and early 80s. There has been a significant "dumbing down" of the majority of movies and much of the "serious-minded" stuff is now done to go straight to streaming.

Critics looking at his movie in 1980 probably had much higher standards because there were a lot more mature movies getting made by the top filmmakers of the day. Sure, there was some silly stuff, too, but you could at least get a consistent diet of adult-minded movies that addressed some of the important issues of the day.

Today a lot of that is gone, and studios have shifted a lot of resources towards tentpole films, big IP, animated fare, etc. There are a few smaller films being made as well, but they tend to not get a very wide release and generally play on just a few cities.

I'm very happy that the discussion around this movie prompted me to take another look at it, there's definitely a few things there that indicate that the material could have been made into a much, much better film. In fact, I would argue that the historical events depicted definitely deserved a better film.

But by the standard of what the "serious" directors were attempting and often accomplishing during the era, it still seems like a tremendously flawed and ill-conceived film.



Why would any film not deserve a critical reassessment?


The last thing we want is for attitudes towards a film to remain stagnant.
Agreed, somewhat, but it won't be me that does it. It's been a while since I saw it and my recollection was both how unjustifiably long it was and how slow it moved. I'll let someone else do the reassessment.

That person can stream it on Amazon. Personally, I'm pretty much used up on westerns, much less long ones.