Upcoming Rule Changes

Tools    





Wanted to give you guys a heads-up that some rule changes are coming down the pike. We're working out the specifics now, but it's probably not going to be too long.

The biggest changes won't really be changes at all, but more a recommitment to enforcing things that are already against the rules, but have been given a lot of leeway. For example, we've had a "no personal insults" rule for awhile, but this is difficult to implement in practice consistently, and it lets a lot of things through that do just as much to escalate conflicts as much as personal insults do. So tweaking it slightly to No Ad Hominem Attacks (for example), and enforcing it consistently and with regularity, could go a long way.

Now, I know from experience that situations like this inevitably lead to a handful of people saying that this prevents "fun." But threads devolving into fights isn't really fun, and feeling stressed out about unnecessary conflicts isn't fun, either. Any rule we make, or don't make, has trade offs. If you're not sure you like this, weigh those two things in your head: ask yourself if having to think a little more about what you post is actually worse than not having to worry so much about being attacked by others. I think that's a good trade.




I'm starting this thread primarily to give people advance notice. I'm also in case anyone has any input. But please note: the goal of reducing conflict is not up for debate. The means of achieving that goal, however, is. If all you have to say is that you don't like this direction, then I respectfully suggest you don't reply.

We have to decide what kind of forum this should be. There's no such thing as being agnostic about that, because refusing to make that decision is, itself, a decision. And my decision is that there's a million places on the Internet where people can fight and insult each other and say anything, and far fewer where they can be assured of a substantive and respectful discussion. I hope you'll all agree, stick around, and help us be that.



Ad Hominem as in... debate? How does that differ from "personal insults"?
__________________
Movie Reviews | Anime Reviews
Top 100 Action Movie Countdown (2015): List | Thread
"Well, at least your intentions behind the UTTERLY DEVASTATING FAULTS IN YOUR LOGIC are good." - Captain Steel



i'm SUPER GOOD at Jewel karaoke
Ad Hominem as in... debate? How does that differ from "personal insults"?
ad hominem attack: attacking someone based on personal feelings rather than facts and logic.
__________________
letterboxd



ad hominem attack: attacking someone based on personal feelings rather than facts and logic.
"No Ad Hominem Attacks" basically means stop flaming.
And this is different from a catch-all generic "personal attack" becauuuse...?



Ad Hominem as in... debate? How does that differ from "personal insults"?
As I alluded to in the OP, this would definitely be a subtle change. But, for example, saying to someone "you always do X," is ad hominem, but whether or not it's a personal insult is a little harder to say. Part of the idea here is to stop conflicts from escalating unnecessarily, but another part of it is reducing the number of judgment calls that need to be made.



As I alluded to in the OP, this would definitely be a subtle change. But, for example, saying to someone "you always do X," is ad hominem, but whether or not it's a personal insult is a little harder to say. Part of the idea here is to stop conflicts from escalating unnecessarily, but another part of it is reducing the number of judgment calls that need to be made.
Oh, I HATE IT when people do that! Much agreed.



i'm SUPER GOOD at Jewel karaoke
i also kinda interpreted it to mean don't just enter a 'debate' with someone under the guise of rational discussion, when actually it's because that person has already pissed you off previously, and you just want to carry on arguing with them because you're mad. i've seen that a lot lately



Yeah, one of the problems we've seen more over time (and this makes perfect sense for a site that's been around as long as this one, and has many long-term members) is that old fights end up popping up again and getting re-fought. If we combine a No Ad Hominem Attacks rule with stricter enforcement for off-topic posts, we preclude people re-litigating their grudges any time a new disagreement comes up, too.

The rules start to compliment one another, in other words. The common thread in both being: each argument is about the idea in front of you, and not the person it's coming from or the history you have with them.



I think intent should be equally looked at in any disagreement.

By back reading in a thread, you can see who has ill intent (I.E. up to no good or is being problematic in their behavior.) A person's intent is usually easy to spot, when context is taken into consideration.

It's possible a good person could be wronged by another on purpose, and the good person uses a word that is construed as Ad Hominem...and in that case the instigator of the event goes unpunished, while the good person who unwisely used a wrong word or phrase catches trouble. The intent of the parties involved in dispute should be also considered before action is taken.



Seems like a fair subtle change. I will of course voice my opposition if there are any instances in the future where I disagree with the rule's use, as I'm sure you encourage. I'm quite sure this won't be the case, though, as I've always thought the judgement of the moderators here was fair.

I happen to think there are situations where a substantive and polite observation of someone's character or style of posting can be in order, but I assume you wouldn't categorize that under "ad hominem attacks" if it is relevant to the fruitfulness of the discussion that's being held?
__________________
Cobpyth's Movie Log ~ 2019



Just one question ... Latin is all Greek to me so I never understand what all these legal-type phrases such as ad hominem mean or whether I might have inadvertently transgressed one .... will I still be able to post my sparklingly amusing sense of wit that is never intended to cause offence or should I cease and desist forthwith to be on the safe side (that last bit is me trying to sound educated ... pretty sure it means 'stop right now just in case' )?



I don't want to spend a lot of time litigating exactly what each term means yet, because the mods and I are still discussing that, anyway. But I will address a couple of general things:

I think intent should be equally looked at in any disagreement.
It seems to me a person either posts an ad hominem attack, or not, and there's not really any way to do so unintentionally. And obviously we can't say "no ad hominem attacks...unless you don't intend for them to be taken personally." So I'm not sure how intent would factor in.

It's possible a good person could be wronged by another on purpose, and the good person uses a word that is construed as Ad Hominem...and in that case the instigator of the event goes unpunished, while the good person who unwisely used a wrong word or phrase catches trouble.
Same thing as above: if we put this into a specific context, I think it becomes clearer. I'm not sure it's possible, for example, for someone to be "wronged" if not by an ad hominem attack.



Seems like a fair subtle change. I will of course voice my opposition if there are any instances in the future where I disagree with the rule's use, as I'm sure you encourage. I'm quite sure this won't be the case, though, as I've always thought the judgement of the moderators here was fair.
Glad you brought this up: one thing I've already decided is that, regardless of the specific rules or implementation, there's going to be a more formal appeals process. There are plenty of borderline calls, and even though we want to reduce those, they can't be eliminated altogether.

I happen to think there are situations where a substantive and polite observation of someone's character or style of posting can be in order, but I assume you wouldn't categorize that under "ad hominem attacks" if it is relevant to the fruitfulness of the discussion that's being held?
Correct. This is one area where subjectivity is inevitable. We'll try to minimize it, but yes, I think it's possible to tie general traits (particularly if the traits are about method of argument, rather than someone's mere personality) to the argument at hand.



Just one question ... Latin is all Greek to me so I never understand what all these legal-type phrases such as ad hominem mean or whether I might have inadvertently transgressed one .... will I still be able to post my sparklingly amusing sense of wit that is never intended to cause offence or should I cease and desist forthwith to be on the safe side (that last bit is me trying to sound educated ... pretty sure it means 'stop right now just in case' )?
Ad hominem means "at the man." Basically, arguing about the person rather than the idea. Apart from making disagreements personal and tending to escalate fights, it's also just a straight-up logical fallacy, anyway, which is why prohibiting it is, in my opinion, a pretty reasonable way to cut down on this stuff. It's not like we're saying "this is valid but causes trouble, so don't do it." The thing causing trouble is logically invalid, anyway. How convenient.



Registered User
Good to hear this. Maybe I'll stick around after all.



Originally Posted by Citizen Rules
I think intent should be equally looked at in any disagreement.
It seems to me a person either posts an ad hominem attack, or not, and there's not really any way to do so unintentionally. And obviously we can't say "no ad hominem attacks...unless you don't intend for them to be taken personally." So I'm not sure how intent would factor in.
OK, I won't debate the point of intent, as you stated that you don't want to debate this too much, and I respect that request......Which brings me to another behavior that has lead to problems on the board...the continual nit picking under the guise of debate by one person, on another person who doesn't want to engage in arguments. Some members use this as a form of aggression, and this has been going on for a long time.

Maybe they can't stop themselves, or maybe they don't realize how hurtful their behavior can be, but it is a problem. We seen someone complain about that on The Trump thread recently.



Ad hominem means "at the man." Basically, arguing about the person rather than the idea. Apart from making disagreements personal and tending to escalate fights, it's also just a straight-up logical fallacy, anyway, which is why prohibiting it is, in my opinion, a pretty reasonable way to cut down on this stuff. It's not like we're saying "this is valid but causes trouble, so don't do it." The thing causing trouble is logically invalid, anyway. How convenient.
Kewl, thanks for 'splaining Yods - think I understand. I've absolutely no interest in taking part in 'confrontations' either here or anywhere else on t'interweb so I should be ok then. I'll just try to make it even clearer when I'm being daft (that's most of the time really ).

Carry on .... and anything that helps keep this a nice, harmonious place is fine by me



Which brings me to another behavior that has lead to problems on the board...the continual nit picking under the guise of debate by one person, on another person who doesn't want to engage in arguments. Some members use this as a form of aggression, and this has been going on for a long time.
How do you distinguish that from honest questions? Can't a person just say "I'm not interested, please stop tagging me in mentions" or something?