Earlier, Yoda said: [read yoda's post]
Mosques can be beautiful places of worship (I assume - I've never been to one). Putting a mosque at Ground Zero... and trying to say it's a MONUMENT... is the biggest slap in the face to those 3,000 innocent dead people.
Yeah, some are beautiful, some are ugly, some are just meh. Just like any other structure for any other religion. That's not why I think it deserves a spot there, just cuz it's pretty. Anyway, I don't really see how Yoda's statement correlates at all to this 'slap in the face' sentiment. It was an absolutely terrible event that changed the landscape of our country literally, politically, and socially. But it is an event that should stand apart from Islam as a belief system. The people who carried out the attacks were Muslims, and claimed to do it for Islam, but they are incredibly misguided people. Islam does not condone actual violence any more than Christianity does. So the building of a mosque, first of all, shouldn't even really be national news. If a person owns a parcel of land or has a grant to build on a specific property or follows the same process everyone else does to build a place of worship, he should be allowed to build it as long as it isn't a danger to the community. The only part of me that disapproves of this does so because of this safety issue. Not because it's a 'slap in the face' of those 3000 people.
We have bombed civilian-heavy areas of foreign countries in every war we've been in with the specific intent of maximum casualties. When we then occupy those countries or build there, is that any less of a slap in the face? And I don't think they're building it as a 'monument,' just as a mosque. The fact that it's located near Ground Zero automatically makes it a statement, but I don't think it's meant to memorialize the attacks in any way.
Honestly, I would recommend that we don't try to be all-loving and all-embracing. I don't recommend being racist or not having a heart or not loving anything at all -- far from it. I just don't think we can be hippies about this. We should not become Bono or Yoko Ono or one of the other "ono" people -- especially Yoko Ono. Do you think she'd support the Mark David Chapman Library if they put it across the street from The Dakota? O, no.
Honestly, I don't think Yoko would care too much, but that's neither here nor there. I get what you're saying, though, if you mean that we're becoming so accepting that we don't even really evaluate things that we condone. But using that argument in this context implies that condoning the building of a mosque is bad and we're overlooking that.
My statements here might seem kind of goofy, but my point is -- we are not a bunch of saints. We are not all wishing peace on Earth. New York is not heaven and it's not paradise. It may be to some people, sure, but basically what I'm saying is... this is not the time to try to be God-like, in some new agey sense, and open our hearts to the idea of a mosque at Ground Zero.
I think this IS the time to open our hearts up to other peoples and perspectives. I think saying we're not wishing peace on Earth or a bunch of saints is the weakest part of your argument. The world's a terrible place so we shouldn't try to change? So New York is not heaven and we therefore shouldn't try to do good things in it? I hope I'm not twisting your words. It is true that we're far from perfect--we're one of the most violent countries in the world. But that shouldn't effect your personal decision on building a mosque. That's like saying, things are so bad, doing this shouldn't happen because that would be peaceful and we're not a country that values peace. I think a change needs to start with an individual who cared enough to say things are bad and then try to
change things. A mosque could be a positive, though extremely ill-informed way of provoking this change. But actually, I don't think that statement was goofy. It was kind of funny and a pretty good metaphor.
I can see why people would think a mosque right by this nightmare area would be a beneficial thing to Muslims and to our country, but I highly suspect that many people would oppose this and rise against it. In the long run, it might even make things worse. This is a terrible idea. You don't get divorced and then run out and get your ex-wife's name tattooed above your penis, do you? You don't let the next wife see that coming at her. You don't put a mosque up in a place where Muslims killed 3,000 Americans only ten years ago. Put it somewhere else. That's just your best bet.
Another funny metaphor. But I was specifically asking about people who oppose it for the 'slap in the face' thing. It's easy to say that it shouldn't be built because it will most likely lead to violence in the area and could possibly worsen relations between Muslim-Americans and the rest of the country. I accept this part of everyone's argument. It's unavoidable. I wanted to know in particular the viewpoint of people who think it shouldn't be built for other reasons.
So what? Maybe we want it to be perfect. Just because we've spent too long trying to come up with the right plans, we should give up and drop a mosque down instead? We're talking about a major part of American history -- RECENT history -- 3,000 people died. We should punish ourselves for not coming up with something yet? If we can be THAT serious about putting our own tribute up, let's be THAT serious about this mosque idea. Let's think about that for ten years. Why do we need to automatically give in and construct this mosque just because it's a religious place. It's not evil. F RELIGION! (sorry, everyone)
The point I was making was that it hasn't taken this long because we want it to be perfect. There have been plans that have generally been agreed upon as being great memorials. But the plans fell through for reasons other than they weren't good enough. The people in charge of building at the site were more concerned with technical and/or bureaucratic dealings which seem rather trivial when compared to the need to erect a symbol of America's perseverance and our ability to get back on our feet after taking a terrible blow. It is like saying, yeah, we'll get right back up, right after we sort out the exact rent price of office space.
The developers wanted to maximize profit in the building and tried to raise the rent above the standard real estate value of office buildings in the area. Moreover, many citizens of New York did not want to pay taxes for the building, because of technicalities regarding its position as a government building vs. a residential building, etc... They should have said, let's build the damn thing and worry about it all later. Even more disappointing is that it has become politicized to the point of being more about left vs. right than America working together.
I'm not saying I'd call them that. I'm saying that's a scenario I see happening -- others would come up with names and say stuff about them. That's freakin' obvious.
OK, cool. I thought you just went all racist on me, giving your own name to them. I agree, there will be MANY derogatory nicknames thrown Muslim New Yorkers' way.
In reference to building a mosque being anti-American:
I can't remember your exact post. But I think the gist was: I'm not anti-mosque [so that's not why I oppose it], but I'm also not anti-American. It seemed in that sentence you kind of set the two against each other. I thought it implied, "I don't particularly have anything against mosques, but building one would be unAmerican." Again, I don't want to be putting words in your mouth, so if I misinterpreted, I'm sorry.
I don't know. I suspect that this mosque discussion is just getting people fired up and angrier. I mean, I even have an opinion about this subject and I hardly ever talk about subjects like this.
Yeah, I usually try to stay out of these sort of touchy discussions on the internet with anonymous people whose background I don't know. But it even has me talking. And yes, this discussion surely pisses everyone off for one reason or another.
If you wanna talk interfaith communication, talk interfaith communication. Get on TV or the internet and do it. Don't go to Ground Zero and build a mosque then stand outside it waving a sign reading, "Ground Zero Mosque Grand Opening! Come in and discuss Interfaith Communication!"
I know your using hyperbole for effect, but A) no one takes internet preaching or public access television preaching seriously enough for it to change the dynamic of American-Muslim relations. And B) I meant more the construction of the mosque is a statement that could foster interfaith communication. As in, if it's built, it could represent a positive change in our interactions with Muslim-Americans in an official, state-sanctioned way. The building itself is the message, in the McLuhan sense. I don't mean Catholics are going to be encouraged to walk in and share in the ceremony to better understand Islam.
This is sadly very possible. Hell,
probable.
The 9th anniversary of 9/11 is coming up in a few days. Wasn't referring to September 9th.
Yeah, I'm an idiot, I understood it right after posting it, but was too lazy to amend it.
Anyway, I know this is a lot, but I'd really like to hear your, and everyone else's thoughts and opinions.