Is Nebbit a God?

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There seems to be a lot of religious debate going on on this board so this morning whilst admiring dang Nebbit's avatar I had a thought about robots. Someday robots will have to be programmed with morals aside from the 3 Laws of Robotics Asimov invented.

1. A robot may not injure a human being, or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.
2. A robot must obey the orders given it by human beings except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.
3. A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Laws.

Following these three laws robots can still be used for evil, these laws are not enough. Morals must also be programmed in. Since a robot cannot deviate from it's programming robots will eventually become more moral than humans, maybe even slightly angelic. What do you think about that?



I See You When You're Sleeping
Sounds like the basis of Blade Runner to me and still as interesting.

Maybe in the future we'll find out that we're all robots programmed with morals which went wrong/right and are under supervision from our makers. In that respect I think God would be our true creator.



Originally Posted by sunfrog
There seems to be a lot of religious debate going on on this board so this morning whilst admiring dang Nebbit's avatar I had a thought about robots. Someday robots will have to be programmed with morals aside from the 3 Laws of Robotics Asimov invented.

1. A robot may not injure a human being, or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.
2. A robot must obey the orders given it by human beings except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.
3. A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Laws.

Following these three laws robots can still be used for evil, these laws are not enough. Morals must also be programmed in. Since a robot cannot deviate from it's programming robots will eventually become more moral than humans, maybe even slightly angelic. What do you think about that?
I haven't read Asimov (I know; that must be a crime in some countries, especially for sci-fi fans like me), and this is the first time I've actually seen these laws (even though I've heard about them). I bet people get into all kinds of trouble in his books, as I can see some serious flaws right away. For example, what if there is some kind of disaster and a robot can save 2 different people, but only one? Should it save one, and let the other die? That would break law #1. Also, what if two humans give a robot contradicting orders? There's all kinds of fun stuff here, which I bet Asimov has capitalized on.

What do I feel about the possibility of robots becoming more moral than us? It doesn't bother me very much, and it shouldn't be too difficult, looking at our behavior on this planet. One thing you seem to assume as fact that I am not totally convinced of is that robots will never be able to deviate from their programming. Perhaps one day an artificial brain will be developed that can change and grow, kind of like Data on Star Trek TNG. Just a thought.
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Originally Posted by sunfrog
...maybe even slightly angelic.
Our nebbit is certainly angelic.
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there's a frog in my snake oil
Yeah, Asimov had a lot of fun with all that. Him and Clarke were the dogs bollocks (as we say over here - it's a good thing ), along with Philip K. Dick, Aldus Huxley, Robert Heinlein and many many others, for exploring future possiblities (and in Clarke's case "inventing" satellites! We'll see if his space-elevator ever comes about eh? Pulling ourselves up by our bootlaces - could be fun )

They all talked about morality in the context of new technologies etc - a vital vital thing in this modern world of symbiosis between humans-and-technology (and the good and bad in both)

Erm, i've got mates who work in AI, and here's a few titbits:

-we're no where close to any sort of AI at the moment. At first, in the seventies, they thought they'd have speaking/communicating robots within a few years (coz they thought they had a perfect structure in "grammer" - duh -they obviously weren't english teachers ). As it is, they're only just coming up with programs now that can pass the Turin test (i.e. can fool an audience into not knowing whether they're communicating with a human or a computer). But these things are no way close to consciousness. Another example of looking at emergant phenomenon without understanding either the cause or the process of emergance.

-there's no guarantee that we'd know HOW we'd programmed the robots if we did get them up and running, and hence probably wouldn't know how to moderate their behaviour. They'd almost certainly have to have both internally structured thought processes and the potential for darwinistic "growth"/learning etc (hence the Matrix etc). We'd have huge trouble controlling either of these things if we DID acheive them. An incredibly simplistic darwinistic/self-designing circuit was created about ten years back. It was/is fascinating stuff - and we still don't know how it works. The process of emergance is entirely unclear. The designer just made a requirement that 100 logic circuits compete to survive, with the survival criteria being changing a constant tone/frequency they were receiving to a different constant tone etc. (which was established purely by the circuits starting to do it - i.e. they didn't [couldn't] decide exactly which tone would be produced.). Over-time, passing the adaptions of these "logic circuits" on to the next "generation", they arrived at a working chip, which "survives" (on its own terms ) within their broad aim.

The best bit about this experiment is: coz the scientist felt doing it with logic chips, and not actually in a computer model (which requires us to know all the "waveforms"/possiblities first - duh - stoopid/not accurate), was better....something very strange happened.....he noticed that only about 20% (i think) of the circuits were actually being used. But when he removed some of the un-used one, the chip stopped working!! i.e. they are assuming that the chip has established some form of time-loop technique using magnetism or some other physical property of the chip's physical components (humans would install a hefty "clock" system of course etc)

So we don't know how it works. And we can't entirely direct it. But it's FAR more efficient than anything we could consciously design currently.

You dig people? If we were to succeed in making a robot in this way (and it would be the most efficient way we currently know of) - it'd be out of our control in many ways. Wacking some "morality programs" in there would be both difficult and liable to get adapted around. (if the machines were able to self-adapt, without human aid. The technologies are growing all the time - but we're so far off currently, thank god )

The Matrix has some damn good messages concerning this:
-be careful what you wish for (and recognise that you won't get exactly what you asked for)
-be careful of what you think you can control
-don't think scientific discoveries are fully under our control (or that when they are, we know what we're doing )

So many old-school and new-school stories deal with the moralities and practicalities of this. From genies in lamps, via great sci-fi writers, to "with great power comes great responsability" comic-ethics (as we see in the Matrix etc - do you think i like those films too much?
)
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there's a frog in my snake oil
Originally Posted by MinionTV
Maybe in the future we'll find out that we're all robots programmed with morals which went wrong/right and are under supervision from our makers. In that respect I think God would be our true creator.
No offense to the religious intended, but i imagine that if we have a creator, they're not watching us now. We're on our own - and need to take responsability for our own path. [at least, i see it that way]

(erm, again, meaning no offence, but i've always thought the idea that alien matter from space started us off seems like a fairly good possiblity. Hence, our creator would be a collection of rocks and chemicals, who just happens to have set off all the the huge chain-reactions of good-n-bad combined that is life as we see it. So the only guide is our "extelligence" - the collection of human intelligence that consciously and unconsciously informs our actions - altered as they are from standard life-balances we see around us. Tho not tooooo altered, otherwise we wouldn't survive. [Which is still a strong possiblity with some of the paths we're plunging down] Forget the metal robots - think about the fleshy ones that we are - programmed by the most fascinating combinations of neurological shenanigans - yet still able to learn and adapt in many ways. Just like the rocks that might have started it all can't control us/everything, we couldn't control any robots we made to match up to this thing called "intelligence")

Funny old world



there's a frog in my snake oil
Originally Posted by Firegod
That was just a fancy version of what I said, and you know it! Just kidding.

Heheheh. all i ever do is see rant-potential in others' far more practical and concise words

Hope some of it made sense/was interesting

(i always like doing these rants, coz they help me reformulate what i think etc. It's good to robotically re-adjust )



Originally Posted by Mark
Our nebbit is certainly angelic.
I am, for sure, and God too.
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