Death Penalty: Yea or Nay

Good for you… so many parents don't even take the time to look.... I don’t have any children yet but I check the lists regularly and if one moves anywhere close to me, the people who do have children around me are going to know about it just as soon as I can get in touch with them…



Before I could make any decision on that I would have to know what part the 17 year old actually played in all of this and why… but… I will say when I was 17 years old, I knew the difference between right and wrong and that I could not just randomly shoot people just because I wanted to…



That would be a better alternative than what they do now but I still learn toward the death penalty… anytime a grown person molests a child, there is a possibility that child could die from the act so why is child molestation not considered attempted murder?


Now, out of pure curiosity, I have a question… has anyone in this debate ever had a family member or friend who was murdered?

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I have never, thank God, had to deal with the murder of a relative or a close friend. But I have to wonder what my stance on the death penalty would be if I had. I'd like to think it would be the same.

My stance, much like my stance on abortion, is split. Half of me says, "You don't lock up a rabid dog--you kill it before it hurts someone." The other half of me says, "How can we put our faith in a justice system that's shown itself to be flawed time and time again?"

Yeah, it's boring, but there you have it.

An interesting sidenote:

I don't allow certain topics for argumentative papers in my classes anymore. I've read more poorly-worded student arguments on abortion, capital punishment, and the legalization of marijuana (by far the most popular topic among most of my students... imagine that) than I want to. However, one of my last capital punishment papers took the absurdity cake.

My student spent much of the paper talking about how countries like Singapore have severe punishment systems and also have relatively low crime rates. This isn't a bad point to make; however, he ended his paper by addressing the aforementioned-in-this-thread "barbaric" issue.

This is a rough quote:

"I think that if we held executions in arenas and stadiums and sold tickets for the events, that it would be a deterrent for criminals. Going back to things like drawing and quartering. Some might say this is barbaric and primitive, but it doesn't have to be. We could use monster trucks instead of horses."

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You were a demon and a lawyer? Wow. Insert joke here."

Well... I don't understand why you use your own life as example to support your arguments if you don't want anybody to say anything about it. No, I don't know you, but I know about your opinions and that's what I based my arguments on.

Toot-toot up your ass! When did I say that abortion was a good thing to do in order to save money?? Please show me a quote on that one! And even if I did - so what if a woman decides to abort a fetus because she just can't afford to support a child. That's her own business and not something concerning the country's ecomomy. I don't give a damn about how my neighbour handles her or his economy, but I DO care about how my government handles the economy of the state. And the day that they start killing people to save money, which will never happen here (not even the most conservative swedish party supports death penalty), I'm moving to Norway or something.

Why did you start this new topic if you're going to continue to debate on abortion?

You know, I'm starting to know a lot about you now so.... Once again, I don't understand why you take offense when I'm critizising (spel.) your way of life when you constantly using your own life to make a point. What I would like to know, because I don't think that this (above) cleared that out to me, is what you meant by not being "black enough" and so on. Or anyway.... It's not the issue here so forget about it.

Should we even have prisons? They only cost money.


Yeah sure, anytime! By the way, check this out: http://www.zone81.com/arch_news/1027555451431

Well, I don't know all the reasons why our crime rates and murder rates are lower. Sure, one reason could be that we put a lot of belief in a system that takes care of the people. But other reasons could of course be that we don't have your liberal gun laws perhaps. I really don't feel like speculating on issues that I don't have the answer to. But, yes, I think USA could use some radical ideologies. You have a right wing party, and a far right wing party, but no real left wing party. Maybe that's why 51% of the people didn't even bother to vote in your last presidential election.

And I do, you say? By the way, about this "socialist country" or whatever... We have free market system here for heaven's sake. I guess socialism to you is the same as communism. The governing party here is the Social Democrats which are what you could call a socialist liberal party. I'm too tired to go into that further, but I assure you, we don't live on governmental supplication here either.

Well, it's cold to me because in the end it will lead to a hyper-fittest-of-the-fittest thinking that I think is disgusting. Soon only the brightest kids will get "those money" because it's a waste on all the other dumb kids. Why spend money on that kid who's selling drugs? He will end up a crackhead anyway and probably be dead before he's 18 anyway. It's not the point, you'll say. It's a totally different topic, you'll say. You're reaching, you'll say. No, I'm not! It costs money to operate a democratic nation. The minute you start spending money only on "the good people" you're heading for the real destruction.

Laying down judgement?? Listen, for a while I felt pretty lonely in here before other people who shared my views started posting. If you can't take any criticism - don't bother to post! Except for maybe that one time on the Abortion topic I don't know when I was rude towards you or anybody else. I'm free to speak my mind and you always say that you're on your soap box and so on and what are you doing up there?? Expressing your own personal views and opinions, right? Using you and your life (as you have done in this last post more than ever) as arguments for you opinions, and then when I'm criticizing you, I'm laying down judgement. I'm judging you from the information I get - from you. My judgement, however, may be right or wrong or both... And I don't have hate for you. I have fear. Fear because I think you represent a big part of your big country, the most powerful country in the world...

Hmmm... I don't understand what you mean here, I have to admit. I don't think that responds to what I said about the "lonely murdered guy".



That's not my point either. I just rather see them behind bars then watch their execution.

Look.. You don't think I pay the rent? Bills? Food? I know what makes the world go round. I gladly talk about money, but not when you weigh it against human lives.

Speaking of money, I'm surprised you didn't mention anything about the absurd warfare budget. What good does the money that you save on executed criminals do if you spend it all on the military?

I just would like to point out that the death penalty is a lot more expensive than life in prison without parole. Here is a good anti-death penalty page that backs up its assertions with a lot of facts and sources. There is absolutely no doubt that the death penalty costs tax payers more, and I've known that for years. I wish everyone else knew it.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/costs2.html

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One of the biggest myths told is that being intelligent is the absence of the ability to do stupid things.

Interesting reading, Firegod.

I don't have much time today so I have to be brief (I'm sure much to your relief )


Say what you will, just don't assume too much. Have I made any assumptions about your life or who you are? No, I've only worked with your arguments. You say "I'm beginning to know you well" (see your response below) I'm saying you have no idea.



You said that a good argument for abortion is the fact that the mother may not be financially secure enough to take care of a baby. I don't have time now to find your quote but I'll do it if you wish.

If you don't care how your neighbor handles things then why are you sticking your nose into my backyard? What do you care what happens here in the good ole U S of A?



See what I mean? You DON'T know me at all... why do you have to personalize the argument? I've made no assumptions about who you are, nor do I care to. I could make some educated guesses but it's not germain to the argument. My answer was in simple english. You said I have an old fashioned fear of 'the unknown' I illustrated to you that I do not. Maybe you're unfamiliar with how grants etc. work here for school. We have to pay for our scholl. Lots of people can't afford it. There are criteria in selecting who gets government money to go to school. It was my experience that even though my economic situation was as bad or worse than some of blacks, asians etc I was passed over for government money because my skin is white. I'm NOT making any assumptions. I was flat out told by a loan officer at my school that this was why. Again, I'm not crying or bitter about it. Just an example to illustrate my points. How come you never use personal examples? I use them to demonstrate firsthand experience in the issues that I bring up.


For minor offenders, yes.


Will do, thanks



WTF? Our liberals have a very strong voice. No time for guns now, but I support gun ownership (No surprise to you I'd bet)


And I do, you say? By the way, about this "socialist country" or whatever... We have free market system here for heaven's sake. I guess socialism to you is the same as communism. The governing party here is the Social Democrats which are what you could call a socialist liberal party. I'm too tired to go into that further, but I assure you, we don't live on governmental supplication here either.



Now you're really speculating. Hey a question for you. If huge democratic governments are so good, if they care for people so well, then why would you worry about abuse of the system as you illustrated above? Just curious.

"The minute you start spending money only on "the good people" you're heading for the real destruction."

You're saying....what? Governments should support bad people in the hopes that they'll become good? I believe too much in free will to support that.



"Toot-Toot up your ass" is a fair example. Don't judge me till you can walk in my shoes. Judge and weigh my ARGUMENTS but not me.

Take it easy my man... I'm resigned to be a minority. Have no fear, most think I'm severely 'out there'. I can't help what I believe though.


[quote]Hmmm... I don't understand what you mean here, I have to admit. I don't think that responds to what I said about the "lonely murdered guy".[quote]

It did though. If the killer of lonely murdered guy is caught then the money that they will spend keeping him in prison should be given to a family in need.

You're being hypocritical again in MY view... but it's for the other thread.

War is another thread too. In this case, in this war, we may have more in common than you'd think.

Fire...
I'm going to read your article. Everything I've read states the opposite but that doesn't surprise me. Everyone has a spin.

Gotta go...

Pleasant Saturday to you people.

Oh yes, ain't that just the truth and a half?

The hurdles you have to leap to get money in civilised culture. Isn't it called discrimination in favour of?

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www.esotericrabbit.com

Hmm. It doesn't seem to be spin; It seems to be common knowledge among those who have studied this subject well. It is not just the execution itself that is expensive. All expenses, including court costs, should be considered if we are going to say that one sentence costs more than the other.

Not at all, not at all...

Ok, this has turned out to be not about the death penalty so much as about you and me.

I don't know about your assumptions, and I don't care.
Actually, I think I'm the one of us that is sticking to the arguments.
When I told you that "I know you well", I was being ironic and sarcastic and was referring to the fact that you speak an awfully lot about yoursefl and your life in this "session". Of course I don't know you well, I'm quite clear about that.

Good luck 'cause I haven't said it like that.

First of all, when I said "neighbour" I actually meant neighbour as in the guy next door, not neighbouring countries.

Secondly, "US of A" isn't just any country now, is it? It is the only superpower left in the world and everything, good as well as bad, that happens there affects the rest of the world, even Sweden. (I'm talking about big issues and businesses now). Economically, culturally, military and so on. Now, I don't have the right to vote in your elections, but I do have the right to speak my mind. Call it "nosing in your backyard" or whatever. (Actually I think it's more like the rest of the world being used as the backyard of USA). I wasn't "nosing in your backyard" before you started and drift away from the subject up on your soap box. The death penalty issue has been secondary in this topic.

I don't use any personal examples because I want to keep this discussion objective, not subjective, nor to be about the two of us.

I DO know about how you have to fill in your race on applications in USA and I think it's f*cking outrageous. But I don't feel that more exectutions would solve that problem, and I don't think you think that either deep inside.

Ok. And kill the rest?

No, not a surprise to me, no. You're right, no time for that right here.

I know the liberals or the Democrats or whatever is "the left" in your country and I'm sure their voice is as strong as the Republicans' but I don't consider them to be a radical left party, and I'm sure there are a lot of people that agree with me on that.

I honestly don't understand your question. Are you asking me why democratic governments are good? Or are you asking me if I worry about people who exploits or abuse the system? What do you mean?

No, you believe too much in your own free will. Just because you "made it" doesn't give you the right to judge those who can't "get up" because of various reasons, the most deciding reason being social politics that hails "the strong man" and doesn't give a **** about those who's born with nothing. And now I'm not talking about just killers and maniacs but also about the ones that perhaps in the future will be killers because that society chose to look the other way. But hey, at least they have the right to own a gun.

But, Toose, where ARE your arguments??? You haven't even mentioned the phrase "death penalty" in this post!!! I don't judge YOU. But I don't like your views or arguments, but please don't take it personal.

Well, I don't know about your views being in minority or not... I know though that death penalty is far more popular in USA than in Europe.

Eeeh... ok...

Maybe... But you don't think some of those money could be better spent on the poor people that you used to support your arguments in favour of death penalty? We don't have to discuss war just to get a straight answer to that question.

I know this was directed to Fire, but if I may just.....

You believe what you want to believe. It's always hard to accept that maybe, just maybe, you were wrong about this single thing. I honestly thought that keeping prisnoers in jail for life was more expensive for the state than executing them, so Fire's article was news to me. But money was never the issue why I oppose death penalty and I honestly don't think that's the reason why people are in favour of it either. They just use it as an argument to support their case.

I don't know.... It seems to me as this topic is dying since we're not even discussing the death penalty anymore... Did anyone change their opinion? No, didn't think so either.

Well, for me it's sunday now. But a pleasant sunday to you too and have a nice new week.

Well, I’m late coming into this, but here’s my view....

I strongly believe there are certain horrific crimes that warrant the death penalty. Jeffrey Dahmer immediately comes to mind. In my opinion...this man should have had the death penalty instead of fifteen consecutive life terms.

For those of you who are not familiar with the story go here......
http://www.crimelibrary.com/dahmer/dahmermain.htm

As far as the serial killer.....MaryLo I loved your statement "You don't lock up a rabid dog--you kill it before it hurts someone." This man coldly planned out, and executed 11 murders and critically wounded 2 others. I can’t image what their families must be going through. John Muhammad, in my opinion, is one of these rabid dogs.

I could go on with other examples, but you get my point.

Hey P-Zilla

You're right we drifted. Sorry for my part in that. Well, I've supported my arguments as best I can on this issue. There is no right and wrong answer there is only a belief. I will always support the death penalty period. No argument is likely to sway me, I feel that strongly about it. You and I should just agree to disagree... anything else would be just re-covering familiar ground.


Aniko
I agree...'nuff said.

Fire/PZilla

I didn't mean that you spin things. I meant that by default we probably choose different news sources. You have to admit that those sources lean their views one way or another...painting their own opinions in a positive light to support their opinion. For every article you find that says life in prison is cheaper I can find one that says it's not (like the first post I opened this thread with).

But your first post leaves out a lot of the expenses. You should look at everything, including court costs. When you do that, you realize that the death penalty is more expensive. It's just that simple.

I know you're not saying that life in prison has no court costs, right? the initial trial is the same. After the sentence both ways get 3 shots if they can prove it's warranted. How do court costs differ in either scenario?

You really should check that site out. There are a lot of factors including appeals and the prosecution spending tons more on capital cases.

Oh okay

MAKE me do my homework then you irreverent bastard. I'll get back to you.

hehe Happy reading.

EDIT:Here's a real good site. It's very short, unlike the other one, and it explains very specifically why capital punishment costs more. One thing I hadn't thought about that this site mentions is defendants refusing to plead guilty and instead going to trial more in capital cases. Makes sense.

http://www.worldpolicy.org/americas/dp/dp-cost.html

Let me just quote Richard C. Dieter (Executive Director, Death Penalty Information Center) from the article that Firegod gave us:

Thus, the article isn't really against the death penalty. Still it points out the facts that make it clear that death penalty is not the cheapest alternative. It's objective enough for me.

Agreed.

I've skimmed over the discussion (haven't had time to read it in full) but I'd just like to say the following:

People who are put to death aren't, in my opinion, being punished for their crimes. Someone who gets executed is better off than someone who has to think about what they've done for the rest of their lives. As you may have guessed I'm not a religious person so I don't think that evil people spend the rest of eternity in a lake of fire in perpetual torment or anything like that.

Yeah, so I'm anti-death penalty and always will be. If someone close to me died then I'd probably want the killer to die in turn, but that doesn't make it right.

Thank you.

Yeah, I agree with you.

*ahem*

I'm religious, and I don't believe that, either.